Premmy's Big-Long Anti-Racism thread.

[Premmy]

I really wasn't going to do this.
But hey, It's still February, I missed the final day of my town's Black Heritage Festival,( no swag for me :( )
and I saw Get on the Bus, at like, four AM, so here I am.

I'll try to outline some basic concepts of racism and how it works in our culture, as well as my own ideas about these topics, both for my own sake, and as a means to further discussion.

Preems is weird.


My personal views on Anti-Racism are tinted, like everyone's opinions on anything, by my personal experiences, and I greatly disagree with quite a few of the tenants and ideologies of Professional and Scholarly Anti-Racist theory. If you want more insight into these subjects from a more scholarly perspective, I'd advise going to those sources for it.


Racism Is Complicated


Racism is a multifaceted thing, containing elements of Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy, and even Religion. Simple ideas create more problems than they could ever solve. TL,DR is going to do nothing but make things worse for everyone. If racism was a simple thing, it wouldn't still be a problem, and it IS still a problem. It also means a simple understanding of things doesn't get to what the REAL problems are.

What this all means, is you're going to need to do a lot of SERIOUS thinking, a lot of SERIOUS reading and listening, and a lot of questioning of the way you and other people think. Avoiding talking about issues of race altogether is no better. If you avoid, deny, or ignore it, you set yourself up to contribute to it by dint of not having any sort of adequate knowledge of the topic.You set yourself up to reacting negatively to the topic when it comes up.

Imagine you have an illness, if you get upset and close yourself off every time the subject is brought up by your doctor, you're not going to get the proper treatment, because you're preventing yourself from addressing the problem.

I Don't care about you, Dick


I really really don't, and neither does anybody else. The constant misconception that Racism ONLY=Dickishness is dangerous in that it limits the conversation about it(racism) and drives the focus toward something that is, as far as I know, impossible to change in any way. Individuals being blatant assholes is just a fact of life, some people are dicks, some people aren't.
What's there to talk about? What's there to do about it?

Pretty much the only thing to address in individual dickishness is making sure none of those people get in charge of anything important to our society, and we more or less do that,( or rather, we do on paper.)
That's done. What's there to address in individuals being hateful?

“That guy sucks”
“Yup”
“Well, that's done”


We might be able to discuss what makes them that way, but individual personality is as influenced by our culture at large as it is by personal experiences. So, yes, it's possible to look at what causes their behavior, and if that helps you gain a greater understanding of the issue, then good, but they're hardly the real issue.Who do rude people hurt? Others, certainly, but only if you let them. By and large hateful people disadvantage themselves by alienating those around them. The issue is not at all one of individuals being hateful, as that's entirely a personal issue.


White People Rule the world


I often see people discuss racism as a form of culture clash: “Two groups of people fighting each other.” This implies that both cultures are on equal footing, that two people, both in the same situation, are having a dispute. But this isn't the case. Racism isn't a fight, it's a beat-down.
Racism is all about one group, being over another. And in the case of America, That's white people.

I'm sure you have a personal story about how you, yourself, don't rule anything, but, it's rather hard to argue that the dominant force in our culture isn't one of European influence, and hasn't been for the longest time.
This extends to every aspect of our lives. Music, Fashion, Language, Food, Pop Culture, Literature, Art, Government, and Interpersonal Relationships.

Think of our culture like a Stew.You make it with beef broth, Add in vegetables, chopped beef, all the good seasonings. It's still gonna taste overwhelmingly like beef.

White People Aren't Normal


They're different, just like everyone else. I've already mentioned the western dominance of our culture. Viewing oneself and one's experiences as “normal” or in other words, a standard to judge by, instead of one of many options, Is an example of this. “White Privilege” is a phrase that pops up at this point in more serious debate, and it encapsulates what I'm describing here. You personally may think yourself to not have any privileges, but it's better to think of it in this mind-frame:

White Privilege is the absence of race-based oppression.

Unless you want to tell me how a white person can experience being marginalized for being non-white, It's a fair assessment to say white people aren't privy to these experiences, and also, that their own experiences aren't indicative of what others are going through.

So, while you may be a poor white man, and you may have class-based oppression,you still lack personal experiences of Race-based oppression.
You might be wondering about a situation, where, a person of Color can be rude to a white person. You might view it as an example of an individual white person experiencing race-based oppression.

But think of it this way. Let's say you're the only white person in a given area. Fine, you're in the minority in that particular situation. The people in your area mistreat you specifically because you're white. Fine, you're subjected to racist treatment. Did you stop being white? Did you suddenly have your ethnicity be marginalized by the entire culture of your country? No, you were called something mean by individual people being rude. You, as a white person, can always walk away from those individuals and go live your life in a world that has no special animosity towards you.

Try this experiment. Spend about seven days, actively avoiding people of color. Be careful of course, to not be an ass or be blatant about it. Just guide your daily activities so that you don't deal with people of color to any significant degree. Under all but the most extreme of conditions, you shouldn't be terribly inconvenienced. Now, do the opposite. Spend a week, ONLY dealing with people of color. Don't do business with any white-owned establishments. Don't socialize with any white people. That will probably cut out most of your favorite restaurants, services, and hobbies.

Everybody's a little bit racist.

Our culture is built on concepts of Racism, sexism, and Hetero-sexism that skew in favor of Straight, White, Christian Men. All of us have to live with this, because we live in that culture. We internalize a lot of the images and ideas that this culture is built on. This means all of us have issues with the racism in our culture. Every one of us, dealing with this is a part of the solution.

Intentionally or unintentionally, we all engage in or contribute to behaviors and ideologies that are a part of the racism of our culture. If you live in a racist society, you're going to do racist things. The key is to not let it penetrate who you are, and what you really think, and to try to change it in your own life as much as you can.

* I'll be adding sources,expanding, and doing edits on this post over time, I just needed to quit procrastinating.

Edit: after reading other sources on discussing racism, I'm gonna add this here.

I kind of hope that everyone can approach this discussion without using ad-hominem attacks or disregarding others point of view.
So, it's kind of like old Discussion forum rules :sweatdrop in that I don't want to see any "Waa waa, cry moar" or anything to that effect. If you have a point, make it, but don't go accusing people of things and insulting people.

[Geminex]

I find this topic intriguing and wish to pursue it further.
Just gimme a while to digest that and find things to object to or points to agree with and expand on.

[Azisien]

Deep down I like to hope my goading may have helped this. I don't have time to elaborately respond so I'll check back later.

Almost universally agree though. Things I am interested in discussing though:
-Actual anti-racism tactics
-What's the priviledged white person to do in this scenario
-How to approach breaking down institutionalized racism

[Hanuman]

Our culture is built on concepts of Racism, sexism, and Hetero-sexism that skew in favor of Straight, White, Christian Men.
Who's culture? Your culture?
My culture is one of wordly, cultured, spiritualist, artistic and wise people since that's who I spend the majority of my time around. Though I do make a smaller portion of my time reserved for my old dorky crowd <3

Most of the things you are bringing up are subtle contemporary racial segregation.

I'd like to bring up my usual point on racism, and that's how a race is just a generalized grouping of genes, and some of those genes may actually be favored by society and some not favored in the future this could happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genism

Or, at least babies modded to be better.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I've told you before Lev- Genism has pretty much no scientific basis in anything at all. The effect that ones specific genes have on a person's final development is so tin as to be neglible and the cost of modifying them is so ridiculously high when compared to social programs which modify a person's environment which has a FAR FAR outcome on a person's final being.
Genism is scientifically nonsense. It is economically nonsense. Though it could happen because people are stupid.

As for racism I have a real problem with affirmative action plans (Lolz, you so racist BHS). The reason is that these plans (in the way they are set up where I have encountered them- I don't know the specifics of US systems) overwhelmingly help the middle class/rich parts of any minority gropu who don't really need it because these are the people who are more aware of the opportunities in the system, have better information about it and have more ability to take advantage. The people who really need help don't tend to get it.
That is why I always think these plans should be more economically based instead of racially based because they will still overwhelmingly help the minority who needs them- because they are overrepresented in the poverty statistics- while not helping those who don't actually need it.

[krogothwolf]

I don't really see much, if any, racism were I live. I don't even think about the colour of the person when dealing with them, it seems pretty pointless to even care about it. The colour of ones skin doesn't matter.

I don't really think white people rule the world anymore Prem. You could have said America and be more truthful, but the world? Not only that, American culture seems like a mash of others with the US adding its own flavour to it.

And Lev, he was talking about American Culture. Say's so in one of his post things somewhere.

I agree with SMB about affirmitive action plans. I've seen it happen to my friend 3 times he didn't get a job he was more qualified for in his company because they had to hire a minority or woman and he is starting to become racist himself because of it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I agree with SMB about affirmitive action plans. I've seen it happen to my friend 3 times he didn't get a job he was more qualified for in his company because they had to hire a minority or woman and he is starting to become racist himself because of it.

In my plan they'll be just hiring poor people in place of him. But then he will become poor so he will get a job too. The perfect system!
I don't have uch of a problem with the system described because the miority probably doesn't have the qualifications because he never had the opportunity to get them unlike his white competitor. And to break the decades of inequality we need to even out the system which in cases like this means working with the less privledged. Just it shouldn't be done on race, it should be done on wealth.

[Amake]

I think when one faces a foreign culture, one can react with either curiosity or hostility, either attempting to make it part of oneself or to obliterate it. Obviously, hostility is the part that is a problem. I'd give much to know exactly what it is that makes people hostile. My current theory is that it's basically insecurity, a fear of losing your sense of self in a culture that is perceived as a vastly bigger creature that would consume you and invalidate your ego, if you let it.

The solution then would be meditation and magical initiation, until you realize a) how pointless and destructive it is to hold on to the illusions of ego, and b) that the idea of you being something separate from the rest of the universe is flawed to begin with.

In layman's terms, all we need is education and more education. Easy to say, huh.

[Hanuman]

I've told you before Lev- Genism has pretty much no scientific basis in anything at all. The effect that ones specific genes have on a person's final development is so tin as to be neglible and the cost of modifying them is so ridiculously high when compared to social programs which modify a person's environment which has a FAR FAR outcome on a person's final being.
Genism is scientifically nonsense. It is economically nonsense. Though it could happen because people are stupid.

As for racism I have a real problem with affirmative action plans (Lolz, you so racist BHS). The reason is that these plans (in the way they are set up where I have encountered them- I don't know the specifics of US systems) overwhelmingly help the middle class/rich parts of any minority gropu who don't really need it because these are the people who are more aware of the opportunities in the system, have better information about it and have more ability to take advantage. The people who really need help don't tend to get it.
That is why I always think these plans should be more economically based instead of racially based because they will still overwhelmingly help the minority who needs them- because they are overrepresented in the poverty statistics- while not helping those who don't actually need it.
{{citation needed}}

[POS Industries]

I'm curious as to what degree you differentiate between class-based oppression and race-based oppression in America, as it strikes me that more and more in our current era that the major contributing factor to the impediment of the upward mobility of the average African-American is that we live in a society set up to favor the rich and to maintain that the wealthier citizens not only remain as such but further gain more wealth, which necessitates keeping money, resources, and opportunities for advancement out of the hands of the poor lest we risk any sort of redistribution of wealth to even the most minor degree.

Naturally, the fact that a large share of the black community finds themselves being the victims of what is distinctly class-based warfare--whether those winning the war realize this or not--is certainly based in the centuries of racial oppression they've undergone, and there is certainly a persistent stigma in regards to race relations in this country, but to say that, for the most part, the struggle of the average poor black American is different from the struggle of the average poor white American has quickly become increasingly inaccurate.

In fact, I would say that the racist element is less that black people are not advancing because they're black but the fact that a number of (dumber) white people are under the impression that the reason most black people who do advance in some financial respect do so because whatever white person that surely had to hire them/promote them/enroll them only did so because they were afraid they'd be labeled racist if they did not. This is, of course, ludicrous and obviously a pathetic attempt by dumbass white folks to claim that they are now the ones experiencing racial oppression, because I guess they think that's how you get handed things nowadays. The idea that a black man could possibly be the most qualified candidate eludes them.

However, the people in America who think this way typically don't appear to be the ones in power. In fact, the larger share of them seem to be living in poverty themselves, and are simply angry and looking for someone to blame for their own victimization at the hands of our socioeconomic system without wanting to abandon the system themselves, lest they dash their hopes of somehow being on the top of it themselves one day.

{{citation needed}}
A wikipedia stub with one source about a science fiction term coined by a director promoting his movie isn't really citation, either.

[Geminex]

I agree with Smarty on the genism bit. You can modify a person's genotype, theoretically anyway. What you can't do, is control the factors that influence the phenotype. And they have so much more influence on a person's... identity, really, than the genes. Sure, you can eliminate certain genetic diseases through genetic modification. And perhaps you can even modify some physical traits, though the interaction of various transcribed proteins are so complex, you'd need one hell of a research budget to manage this. But an individual's behavior, how they will act, who they are, that, I believe, lies in the phenotype.

Edit:

Though I would be interested in some more info on the affirmative-action plans and the ineffectiveness thereof, that smarty mentioned.

[CABAL49]

Since I actually spend a lot of time helping immigrants learn English, avoiding "people of color" is not an option. But I am reminded of a remark someone made, saying I didn't have many white friends. I wonder if that means I subconsciously discriminate against white people...

[DFM]

I don't really think white people rule the world anymore.

Hahahahahahaha

[Odjn]

I don't really think white people rule the world anymore Prem. You could have said America and be more truthful, but the world? Not only that, American culture seems like a mash of others with the US adding its own flavour to it.
.

Fuck you kroggy I spit-taked milk all over my laptop when I read this.

[krogothwolf]

Fuck you kroggy I spit-taked milk all over my laptop when I read this.

Hey, All I know is half the companies I've worked for are now run by rich people from china or japan. It makes me wonder.

[DFM]

Actually companies from China and Japan take up number Nine and Number Ten, respectively, on the top ten of the Global 500 list of most powerful/successful companies. Eight through One are Old Rich White people. I think they're all American's, too.

One of them might be French.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

{{citation needed}}

What bit would you like me to cite? Cause every study ever done in the last 40 years on the influence of environment versus genes overwhelmingly concludes that environment is far more critical than genetic upbringing.
The simplest way to look at it is that the brain- our most critical part- is barely developed when you are born the first years of life are when it develops ad that development is pretty much entirely environmental determined.
And then there is the fact that genes react different to different environments. There is no one simple gene that always does one thing- the body is a complex set of interactions which depend on so many more things than genetic interactions.
Even at its absolute most basic level the tertiary structure of a gene is determined by environmental factors- if you change these factors you change the final behaviour.
If you want me to cite a specific thing I can but just go to google- this is simple basic stuff, first year biology.
I'm pretty sure I cited a whole lot of stuff the last time you made this ridiculous argument- so you can go back and read that one.

And changing society is far cheaper than molecular cells- or do you wat me to cite that too.

I'm curious as to what degree you differentiate between class-based oppression and race-based oppression in America, as it strikes me that more and more in our current era that the major contributing factor to the impediment of the upward mobility of the average African-American is that we live in a society set up to favor the rich and to maintain that the wealthier citizens not only remain as such but further gain more wealth, which necessitates keeping money, resources, and opportunities for advancement out of the hands of the poor lest we risk any sort of redistribution of wealth to even the most minor degree.

Naturally, the fact that a large share of the black community finds themselves being the victims of what is distinctly class-based warfare--whether those winning the war realize this or not--is certainly based in the centuries of racial oppression they've undergone, and there is certainly a persistent stigma in regards to race relations in this country, but to say that, for the most part, the struggle of the average poor black American is different from the struggle of the average poor white American has quickly become increasingly inaccurate.

In fact, I would say that the racist element is less that black people are not advancing because they're black but the fact that a number of (dumber) white people are under the impression that the reason most black people who do advance in some financial respect do so because whatever white person that surely had to hire them/promote them/enroll them only did so because they were afraid they'd be labeled racist if they did not. This is, of course, ludicrous and obviously a pathetic attempt by dumbass white folks to claim that they are now the ones experiencing racial oppression, because I guess they think that's how you get handed things nowadays. The idea that a black man could possibly be the most qualified candidate eludes them.

However, the people in America who think this way typically don't appear to be the ones in power. In fact, the larger share of them seem to be living in poverty themselves, and are simply angry and looking for someone to blame for their own victimization at the hands of our socioeconomic system without wanting to abandon the system themselves, lest they dash their hopes of somehow being on the top of it themselves one day.


This is pretty much a better version of my argument and I think it is really the most compelling argument that you have to make.



Edit:

Though I would be interested in some more info on the affirmative-action plans and the ineffectiveness thereof, that smarty mentioned.

As I said, my info is based not on the US but on NZ- I can get you some data on that if necessary- but I have no idea how relevant it is. It would seem likely that the same principals apply though.

[Ecks]

Hey, All I know is half the companies I've worked for are now run by rich people from china or japan. It makes me wonder.

It's because the rich people from America sold out to those rich people from China and Japan. It is the biggest expression of extreme fucking greed since the Enron or Delphia scandals. Instead of embezzling money, now they sell out to foreign countries through actual sale or through outsourcing.

So that they can afford to buy themselves twenty cars, five homes, personal golf courses and amusement parks... but not personal ball washers, strangely enough.

[krogothwolf]

One of them might be French.

Damn french people!

Plus in terms of population, Asia has 60% of the world population and I'm fairly sure they are predominantly not white. White's are probably just more greedy then everyone else.

[Funka Genocide]

Racism is propogated by ignorance, ignorance is a byproduct of insufficient education, insufficient education is a product of being poor.

Basically, I feel that racism is something only poor people espouse or deal with regularly, minus the few wacky old rich coots.

The problem with American society isn't really racism as it is distinction of class and a lack of opportunity for the underpriviliged. I've personally never had to deal with any serious form of racism (denial of services, job related harassment etc. etc.) and I am a minority. I've never used any form of affirmative action nor have I ever applied for a job as a minority applicant, and I always get hired due to my qualifications. All this coupled with the fact that my family is poor as fuck lead me to believe that anyone who plays the race card as an explanation as to why their life sucks is probably delusional. I've seen many success stories from people who came to America barely able to speak english, and through hard work and perseverence managed to build a happy and successful life. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to raise one' self out of poverty, but honestly the color of your skin is not going to stop you.

Of course everyone (yes everyone, even white people) has to deal with some form of racism in their life. But for the most part these are relegated to off color comments or insults. Whoopty fuckin' do. I don't do it, you probably don't do it, some people do do it. I think this is the point you were trying to make about "some people are dicks" but honestly, that's the worst you should have to deal with in life. (barring some psychopath or something.)

A few minor cultural quirks aside (do you use tortillas or wonderbread? who the fuck cares?) race means pretty much nothing to most successful americans, all that matters is the all mighty dollar. So if I were you, I'd start worrying about the real problem, which is endemic ignorance of various American subcultures and the redistribution of financial resources for the elevation of the downtrodden masses (who aren't just black.)

As for everyone is racist, I suppose there's some truth to that. Maybe it's not necessarily racism as culture based discrimination though. For example, I had to catch myself the other day as I went on a tirade against "beer swilling rednecks." That's really fucking racist. My views have gotten to the point where I consider such inoccuous activities as enjoying NASCAR or recreational hunting to be condemning activities. It's really easy to go off the deep end with stuff like this, and while my views are derived not from the color of people's skins but from their ways of life, they're still unfair and judgmental.

I think this is a good, thought provoking topic, maybe something educational will arise from it.

[Premmy]

Before I say anything else I think we need to avoid falling into a White folks/Black folks Dichotomy in our discussion.
edit: and Geminex, I swear to GOD, change the avatar! It makes me want to punch the world.

[POS Industries]

This is pretty much a better version of my argument and I think it is really the most compelling argument that you have to make.
Bear in mind, of course, that I'm speaking on average. There are certainly areas throughout the country where full-on lynchtastic cross-burning sheet-wearing bigotry is operating in full effect. My time in Shasta County, California, for instance, provided quite the horrifying reminder for me that we as a nation still have a long way to go. A 17-year-old autistic boy who wandered out of his house one night and got lost ended up being beaten by police, having his arm broken, and hauled off to jail, which probably wouldn't have happened had he not been black. A seriously ill white woman failed to receive treatment at the local hospital because the man who brought her in was black. That sort of thing.

Not exactly a hospitable area for someone who wasn't a straight, white, Christian man, and as someone who doesn't strictly fall into three out of four of those qualifiers, I didn't exactly make an effort to involve myself in the community.

[Premmy]

When did you get a vagina? I've seen your hairy chest, man.

[POS Industries]

When did you get a vagina? I've seen your hairy chest, man.
...When did you start watching me undress?

[Premmy]

When you got so damn sexy, precious.
Edit: I'm actually going to seriously debate, But there's butt-loads of sources I have to rustle up, so for now, I'm sticking to Skeeving on people and trying to lightly guide the discussion in a positive direction.

Funka, there's some rather insulting stuff in your post, might wanna re-read it.

[Krylo]

Geminex, I swear to GOD, change the avatar! It makes me want to punch the world.

You know, until I read this, I never thought of Jinx as a black caricature with the dark skin and giant lips.

Now I can't stop seeing it.

I'm not sure if I should hate you or Nintendo more for this new turn of events.

[Premmy]

Dude, Mr Popo. Japan Loves them some Sambos.

[Krylo]

I think it was the fact that Jinx is some kind of hideous inhuman monster + the blonde hair that kept me from noticing it. Or maybe it was the age at which I first saw it, and I never really looked at it again.

I don't know.

All I know is I miss my ignorance, and now Gem's avatar makes me want to punch everything, too.

[Premmy]

I think it was the fact that Jinx is some kind of hideous inhuman monster + the blonde hair that kept me from noticing it. Or maybe it was the age at which I first saw it, and I never really looked at it again.

I don't know.

All I know is I miss my ignorance, and now Gem's avatar makes me want to punch everything, too.

well, she's like one of the few Humanoid pokemon, and,
hideous inhuman monster
Yeah, that's kinda the point.

[Funka Genocide]

yeah I guess the gist of what I said was "don't be poor" so heh, I can totally see how that's insulting.

But seriously man, nobody cares how white, brown or black you are if you've got the cheddar, that's why I love America.

[Geminex]

Very vell zen. My avatar has disappeared.

My intention was the inhuman monster/uncanny valley effect that Jynx brought with it. I wasn't actually aware of the fact that it's racist. Remind me to read the wiki page first next time I get a pokemon avatar.
I really didn't meant to offend anyone. I'm not sure if I actually did, but if so... well, yeah. Sorry.

[Premmy]

Dude, at this point, "Offend" kinda irks me cause it almost certainly summons the
"PC POLICE! RAAGH" assholes, do what you want. Did'nt offend me, cause Japan being racist does'nt really get to me, what with it being "FUCK YA'LL WE'RE JAPAN! JUST ASK THE AINU!" Just be aware of the shit so you can make educated decisions.

[DFM]

Racism is propogated by ignorance, ignorance is a byproduct of insufficient education, insufficient education is a product of being poor.


Poor people are racist, you're off to a good start, Funka.



The problem with American society isn't really racism as it is distinction of class and a lack of opportunity for the underpriviliged.



There isn't a "The Problem" with American society, there are ten billion "The Problem"s and yes racism is a huge one. I don't understand how you can say it isn't. How many minority presidents have we had? How many Supreme Court judges? What's the ratio of minority to Caucasian leaders in every branch of the federal government? How many American history classes start with goddamn Columbus?

Yes, class division is also a huge "The Problem" and it does tie in with racism, it ties in very strongly, but they aren't the same problem and fixing one isn't going to magically fix the other.



I've personally never had to deal with any serious form of racism (denial of services, job related harassment etc. etc.) and I am a minority. I've never used any form of affirmative action nor have I ever applied for a job as a minority applicant, and I always get hired due to my qualifications. All this coupled with the fact that my family is poor as fuck lead me to believe that anyone who plays the race card as an explanation as to why their life sucks is probably delusional.



"I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist you lazy goddamn bums." This is your entire point, you're saying that you're poor (And somehow neither racist or uneducated, despite your very first sentence in this post) and a minority, and that you pulled yourself up by the bootstraps and made something of yourself, which obviously means your experiences are applicable to the majority of underprivileged minorities growing up in the inner city so if they're still in the inner city by the time they're thirty and not living in a suburb somewhere with a white collar job and two point five kids, it's because... what, exactly? Do you really think a white person growing up in the inner city wouldn't have an easier time getting out than a minority?



I've seen many success stories from people who came to America barely able to speak english, and through hard work and perseverence managed to build a happy and successful life. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to raise one' self out of poverty, but honestly the color of your skin is not going to stop you.



This post is maybe the most delusional thing I've ever heard out of a regular contributer to these forums.

It's so... Republican.





Of course everyone (yes everyone, even white people) has to deal with some form of racism in their life. But for the most part these are relegated to off color comments or insults. Whoopty fuckin' do. I don't do it, you probably don't do it, some people do do it. I think this is the point you were trying to make about "some people are dicks" but honestly, that's the worst you should have to deal with in life. (barring some psychopath or something.)



No. That's not what anyone is talking about. We're not talking about a white guy getting called gringo on the bus and crying racism. We're talking about the one white guy in a company of minorities getting promotion after promotion, faster and higher than anyone else even though he doesn't really work any harder or is any better at his job. We're talking about prisons with an ungodly disproportionate number of minority to Caucasian inmates. Cops with otherwise impeccable records who don't hesitate to shoot unarmed minorities or beat them to death. This is a huge fucking problem and just because you're either too sheltered or too ignorant to see doesn't mean it's going to just go away.




A few minor cultural quirks aside (do you use tortillas or wonderbread? who the fuck cares?) race means pretty much nothing to most successful americans, all that matters is the all mighty dollar.



Ah, yes, of course. That's why all those CEOs that were mentioned earlier are white. Why all of their executives are white. Why there's an incredible scarcity of minorities in the upper echelons of almost every Fortune or Global 500 company. Since America is obviously some kind of meritocracy, that must mean that white people are just better than minorities. Otherwise they wouldn't be there, right?

[Premmy]

Calm down a bit there, DFM.

[DFM]

Funka's got me fightin' mad.

[Premmy]

Me too, Use your grown-up words, though.

[McTahr]

Fightin' mad don't preclude civility, DFM.

[DFM]

I'm sorry I'm a condescending prick, Funka

Edit: I'm also sorry I called you a Republican.

[Premmy]

And while we're at it, Funka, and everyone else, Please don't respond to the yelling with MORE YELLING!

[McTahr]

Prems, chill on the backseat modding. Report if you feel the need to.

DFM, this is not the playground where I will grab you by the ear and make you apologize in a whiny voice. Acknowledge that having an opinion on the internet is not synonymous with being a dick and move on, please.

[Funka Genocide]

eh it doesn't bother me, I guess it is a bit "Republican" of me as well.

Also, I'm not poor anymore. See I was born poor, then I said fuck that shit and made money.

You can call me ignorant if you wish, however I'm willing to wager that I've seen a bit more than you have, been a few more places and done a few more things. I suppose it's just a matter of perspective though.

I wasn't saying that all poor people are racist, just that being poor lends itself to ignorance and thus racism. And yes, the current state of many minority people living in poverty can be attributed (at least in part) to racial bias and racism in the past. I'm not arguing that fact, what I am arguing is that in the current climate you're far less likely to encounter something like that, and honestly I haven't seen any figures from you to represent your side of the deal, so it's just as much "all CEO's are white supremicists" as my "Work harder brokey."

Basically it's all a lot of feelings derived from whatever experience (probably TV in your case.) without a lot of substance. So I'll tell you what, I will seriously try to do some fact based research on the subject and get back to you, if I prove myself (or am proven) totally wrong I will be big enough to admit it, I mean I'd rather be right of course because if I am right that means people aren't a bunch of horribly racist fucks, but I completely accept the possibility of being totally assbackwards wrong.

I just need a few concrete figures before I jump on the bandwagon, as (you have stated) my experiences in life have shown me that racism isn't a problem if you apply yourself.

[Azisien]

I know this is anecdotal and I don't work for a fortune 500 company, but good luck to the visible minority looking for work who'll be hired by my boss that thinks all visible minorities except Asians are "shady characters."

[Premmy]

I just need a few concrete figures before I jump on the bandwagon, as (you have stated) my experiences in life have shown me that racism isn't a problem if you apply yourself.
Or maybe it's a problem that you have to work twice as hard to get through?

Never said it's Impossible for people of Color to succeed. Just that they have to work twice as hard as to get there, and it sucks.

[DFM]

Basically it's all a lot of feelings derived from whatever experience (probably TV in your case.)

You aren't making this easy for me, Funka.

[Funka Genocide]

Or maybe it's a problem that you have to work twice as hard to get through?

Never said it's Impossible for people of Color to succeed. Just that they have to work twice as hard as to get there, and it sucks.

I make approximately 15% more than the average college educated American of my age bracket, I am a Mexican. I don't feel I worked harder than anyone else to get here.

Again, I am using anecdotal evidence which is pretty much useless, but you're just spouting random factoids with no proof, making them equally useless.

You started this by saying that it required concerted study and discussion, you should take that into consideration instead of jumping on your bully pulpit before doing some research. (Although it's completely possible you've done research and simply do not wish to share at this point.)

[Premmy]

I(Although it's completely possible you've done research and simply do not wish to share at this point.)

I have, mostly by stealing books from more educated friends of mine, and (Dumb-asses who liked to look educated :P). I'm just trying to get some reputable sources together that can be linked to.
Edit: God-damned internet, any time I get into this, It's usually in real life and I can run to my house and fetch a book to give someone.

[Jagos]

Guys, seriously?

I think everyone needs to watch what's going on and take a chill pill on this thread for a few hours.

Funka, I understand your position. Having been in a position of poverty myself and seen where some of my former classmates are now (dead, snaggletoothed, strung out on drugs...) it's proof that poverty does lead to ignorance. BUT, getting out of a bad situation is that much harder when you don't have the right support around you.

Never said it's Impossible for people of Color to succeed. Just that they have to work twice as hard as to get there, and it sucks.

Very true. There's a lot of different avenues that people can do to create success. Education, military acumen, and stubborn perseverance. When you DO succeed, the victory is that much sweeter.

[McTahr]

It's fine where it is to a certain extent, Jagos, we aren't running a day-care here, but it could definitely use some facts. Anecdotal facts and generalizations do not an argument make.

[Funka Genocide]

You aren't making this easy for me, Funka.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a dick, but I assure you only like 10% of this is me playing devil's advocate. I understand that racism exists, but building it up to be this iron ceiling and saying that it's entirely based on race (as opposed to class) strikes me as incorrect.

I mean I don't want to play the Obama card but... Yeah that dude is totally black.

In my experience (and I believe I shall be able to substantiate this with further research.) the most racist people are ignorant, poor people. Ignorant poor people do not make hiring policy for fortune 500 companies, in fact they don't do much of anything that affects anyone other than their immediate families. Any reasonably intelligent person (ie: someone in a managerial position at a successful business) will have the knowledge that race does not dictate intelligence or professional aptitude, as this has been unequivocably proven and only an idiot would continue to think that any race of people was genetically inferior. (again, not saying this situation is impossible, just highly unlikely.)

[Solid Snake]

Lately I feel like the personal circumstances of my own life and the lives of those I consider friends and acquaintances around me has blinded me somewhat from the very real existence and prevalence of racism. Growing up in suburbia, for example, led me to meet a number of minorities who seemed perfectly wealthy, well-educated, and content with their lives. I certainly didn't spend much time in urban areas where the demographics were substantially different. But recently, attending law school in an inner-city environment where nearly every homeless or impoverished person I've seen has been African American has altered my own perception somewhat. It's hard to continue to use the concept that "I know a few black friends from the suburbs who've succeeded" as somehow capable of countering the reality that this entire city feels like a racially segregated society.

There may be laws against segregation, but if I see someone who is on the streets late at night and white I am immediately able to (correctly) identify that he's a white college student, tourist, or suburbanite getting drunk in the city on the weekends. Whereas when I see an African American on the streets, occasionally they're also a student or a tourist or a wealthy suburbanite in a suit, but they're disproportionately residents of the city who are struggling to survive.
(That may sound like a stereotype, but the sad thing isn't the stereotype itself, it's the truth underlying said stereotype, and the disproportionate opportunities this evidence strongly points to.)

The real problem I have though is that there simply hasn't been a solution identified that actually addresses the problem. Part of this is politics. Republicans recently seem virulently anti-minorities and implicitly supportive of a status quo (nevermind the fact that several conservative positions, analyzed on their own merits or lack thereof, really should have nothing whatsoever to do with racial issues, and thus it's sad that our society has actually divided into partisan contingencies on such issues.)

But the Democrats -- who, mind you, have actually been the ones running the show in big cities (and now also, disproportionately run things in State and Federal offices) have an equally big issue relating to minorities, and it goes something like this: Because the Republican party is so blatantly anti-minorities, the Democrats are the only viable political option for minorities to vote for. Which leads to Democrats relying on minorities to consistently to vote for them. Which means that Democratic candidates for office no longer need to actually appeal to minority constituents. African Americans certainly would be foolish to vote Republican, but voting Democratic in overwhelming numbers simply reinforces the notion that Democrats can work on courting on white men, married women, and independents.

There's also the corruption problem, and that also stems from one-party control in major cities. Since no one seriously competes against the Democrats, the Democrats stay in power and no new ideas or concepts are introduced that could actually revolutionize inner cities. The one-party system in cities stems to executive agencies in such a way as to encourage the kinds of corruption scenarios that have been egregious lately in cities like Chicago and my hometown. And unfortunately, these kinds of scandals don't impact everyone equally.

Minorities and the poorer classes who disproportionately live in cities rely on government aid much more so than suburbanites, so when local governments become corrupt, it's those without stable salaries or established wealth who tend to be severely impacted. If you're rich you might technically lose more due to the taxes you're paying, but government corruption costs the rich a brand-new 72 inch television set, while government corruption can cost the poor vital money to improve schools and hospitals in desperate need. And when the government cuts back on service sector jobs due to poor financial wrangling, it's those on the bottom of the ladder who will suffer most.

But what can be done? What should be done? I can't really think of a great way for American society to address these issues. The best possible solution would involve the rise of a third party that could challenge Democrats in local elections but somehow agree to not screw around with Democrats on the federal level. I'll call this The New Liberal Party, or NLP. The way the NLP would have to work, in order to ensure that Republicans don't take advantage of the schism on a federal level to dominate the Presidency (and thus, dominate the Supreme Court) is to establish a system where local and state elections are exclusively contested. The NLP could subsequently work to keep Democrats "honest" by ensuring competition in districts that usually remain noncompetitive. You'd have corrupt Democrats who would still win elections and NLP members might succumb to corruption themselves, but the frequent party turnover and destabilization of the seats would hopefully prevent any truly disastrous corruption from undermining the inner cities, while the NLP's sheer existence and ability to greater address the needs of specific localities might increase minority representation and allow an increase in minority voices on the local and state levels.

Even then, would an NLP necessarily help more than, say, a Democratic primary? If the NLP truly becomes a leftist force, could their interests undermine the Democratic party in future national elections? Alternatively, could the NLP actually overtake and consume the Democrats as the Republicans once did to the Federalists and Whigs, and would the results drive the party to take a hard-left turn that would undermine their appeal to centrists in a way similar to how the Tea Party movement and the Bush II Administration have arguably undermined centrist Republican interests? I can't possibly say.

Beyond matters of governance, however, there's sort of a balancing act that minority advocacy groups need to be consider regarding advancing their social interests, and I can't think of a perfect solution there, either. The difficulty lies in convincing the "white majority" (or however you'd like to refer to it) that racism is prevalent and an issue of deep concern without encouraging the kind of "either/or" guilt politics that would only serve to heighten opposition or increase misguided feelings of persecution. It's a difficult issue minorities in general face: massive social change in a country requires some degree of participation by the numerical majority. There's no such thing as "white interest groups" (beyond crazy extremists like the KKK) because majoritarian processes like voting in general favor the white population.

On the one hand, the unequal bargaining power and racial blemishes in America's history (and present circumstances) can inflame the passions of minorities to cast whites as unknowing oppressors and to view "European culture" through the prism of malevolence. But a hard line of hostility only serves to further divide the majority and the minority and create schisms, some of which are artificial and result largely from the very "anti-racist" social commentaries sponsored by those with the best of intentions. Highlight the discrepancy of power among the races to children, and future generations might grow up believing that the boundaries exist, and might either react defensively to combat the politics of guilt (whites) or react with constant hostility to oppressors both real and imaginary (minorities.)

I wish there was a middle line to walk, a trapeze to cross over, but if it's out there, I'm certainly not the one qualified to identify it. Take me, personally, for instance: I love western culture. I love Roman, Greek, and medieval European history, whereas African history couldn't hold my interest in High School (I've discovered I'm a huge Mongolian history fan, though, so it's not entirely a racial thing.) I like western movies, I like western literature, I like my Eurocentric food, I believe in a religion with origins interwoven through Europe. It sucks to put it in that language insofar as it makes me sound racist, but there's some degree of truth to the fact that I'm very much a stereotypical white guy.

So, exactly how should I feel about racial inequality? Can I balance the trapeze walk in advocating minority rights without doing so in a way that leads me to discredit or despise the culture in which I am an active participant? Assuming that there's truly no such thing as a "post-racial" society, and assuming ethnic groups will always retain some degree of a unique identity, is there a way that fighting against white power or white establishment could be fulfilled that wouldn't lead me to toss stones at my own glass houses? These are questions I've struggled with, to some extent. Oh, it's easy to do the little things like volunteer to assist individual organizations impacting the lives of inner city minorities (I've done that.) But politicians who advocate minority rights in urban areas like where I presently live seem to take one of two tracts: there are the appeasers who claim to support minority ethnic groups but inevitably do virtually nothing but maintain the status quo, and then there are the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons, who make virulent arguments that seem to suggest that any true advancement of minority rights has to come with some expense to Caucasian culture -- after all, minorities must demand a greater slice of a pie that's inevitably limited due to scarce resources.

Is it possible that a political platform that concentrates on alleviating the plights of minorities and takes an actively anti-racial tone to somehow do so without alienating whites by seeming to attack or discredit them, or guilt them into believing Caucasians are "different" to such an extent as to be viewed as "enemies", as the OP himself seems to engage in by defining a worldview that emphasizes white dominance in a way with far-reaching negative connotations? Is there a way I can continue to like my "whiteness" (insofar as, again, I'm a stereotypical Caucasian with largely Eurocentric preferences) while simultaneously acknowledging its unfair advantage and striving to take political positions that arguably undermine it? Is there a way I can even say I like my Eurocentric values without coming off as "racist?" (After all, it's not as if an equally honest African American who proclaimed he "liked" the food, music, history, literature, etc. of his culture would be described as "racist.")

In other words: Is there a way we could separate the concept of ethnic bias in regards individual personal preferences from the larger and much more disconcerting issue of ethnic bias in broader society, manifesting itself through decisions made by the government, the media and corporations?

Fortunately, changing demographics will at least partially solve this problem for us: whites will not forever retain their majority in America.

And I just engaged in another lengthy rant, didn't I? Hopefully this rant doesn't manage to piss anyone off: it's just the honest opinion of one person struggling with racial issues in the same way nearly everyone else is these days. (Unless you want to claim you're perfectly unbiased when it comes to every issue of race and ethnicity, in which case, you're lying.)

[Funka Genocide]

I'd just like to point out that I am against the concept of cultural tradition. I feel that's one of the biggest divisive factors in interpersonal relationships. Also, nationalism is a bunch of bullshit too.

If people stopped identifying themselves with artificially reinforced organizations they'd probably have an easier time identifying with their fellow man.

But as a very basic example, let's take Tommy and Billy.

Let's say that Tommy and Billy had very similar lives. Tommy grew up in a one bedroom apartment with his 2 other siblings, his mother raising him mainly on government welfare programs and a few brief spurts of employment. Tommy never knew his father and as a consequence of general neglect from his only parent coupled with poverty, he grew up a rather angry young man. He got in a lot of fights as a child and, since his mother never emphasized the importance of education, he did poorly in school. He dropped out of high school at the age of 16 and, with very few professional prospects he took to selling drugs in his community to support himself.

Let's say that Billy grew up in a mobile home with his physically abusive alcoholic father and mother. Let's assume that his mother left when he was 8 years old and that his father became progressively more abusive over the years. Billy as a consequence of general neglect and poverty was a very angry young man who did poorly in school because his father never emphasized the importance of education. Billy too dropped out of high school at 16 after falling in with a gang, subsequently he became involved in petty crimes and occasionally armed robbery of convenience stores.

Lets say that Tommy is white and Billy is black.

Where will they be at 30?

If you're assuming that the Association of Concerned White People is going to mail Tommy a check to bail him out you're wrong. The truth is both of these boys are fucked because nobody gave a shit about them. It's has nothing to do with race and everything to do with a cycle of poverty. The fact that Tommy and Billy's parents never had it together enough to offer them the support they needed for success had infinitely more to do with their subsequent failures than the color of their skin ever did, and to assume otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm of the opinion that personal responsibility is something a lot of people living in poverty don't understand fully. Regardless of race or ethnicity, people who spend their entire lives in poverty while churning out babies like fucking churros are wrong. I suppose from a macro level, top-down perspective one might assume that Racism is to blame for all those downtrodden minorities (by and large ignoring the majority that are also living in poverty) and say "something needs to be done!' with that something remaining as mysterious and elusive as ever.

That something is people growing the fuck up and living up to their responsibilities.

[Premmy]

It's just occurred to me that you've not addressed my original post at all, and just expressed your anger on the subject. And I just played into your hands. Silly me, finding some nice links though.

[01d55]

edit: and Geminex, I swear to GOD, change the avatar! It makes me want to punch the world.

A man like you "does'nt" have any right to complain about that sort of thing.:mad:

[Funka Genocide]

It's just occurred to me that you've not addressed my original post at all, and just expressed your anger on the subject. And I just played into your hands. Silly me, finding some nice links though.

You specifically said "white people rule the world."

So what you're basically saying is that there's some global network that all white people have access to, where ostensibly they discuss ways of staying on top and keeping those filthy minorities down?

That's as preposterous as assuming all black people are friends.

Rich people rule the world. Poor white people are just as fucked as anyone.

Maybe I'm just thinking too literally here though, as racism to me is discrimination based on genetics. To be precise, your genetic makeup and physical traits are the things you are being judged on and complex social behaviors or dispositions are being attributed to your physical makeup.

What we have today (barring a few extreme examples) is not actually racism. It's is classism and cultural discrimination. A middle class family with a mortgage and 2 kids living in the suburbs that happens to be black isn't going to face any substantial racial backlash unless they live in some weird ass fucked up racist community. A grown man wearing a t-shirt 3 sizes too big that walks into a boutique shop is probably going to suffer a great deal of discrimination however, regardless of his race (unless of course he's covered in diamonds and platinum, in which case I suppose he's precisely the sort of clientele such stores would be looking for.)

[Archbio]

You specifically said "white people rule the world."

So what you're basically saying is that there's some global network that all white people have access to, where ostensibly they discuss ways of staying on top and keeping those filthy minorities down?

That's as preposterous as assuming all black people are friends.

It is preposterous. A preposterous reading of Premonition's statement.

You're just handwaving racism away by saying that it's all about socioeconomics... and then handwaving socioeconomic issues away by saying that it's all about personal responsability. Repeating these things isn't going to make them true.

[Premmy]

I also said White People aren't normal.

[Solid Snake]

Rich people rule the world. Poor white people are just as fucked as anyone.

The correct answer is really "a few rich white men with citizenship in certain nation-states north of the equator rule a vastly disproportionate percentage of the world."

And that's disappointing news to everyone...even a majority of white men north of the equator are worse off under such facts, insofar as a conglomeration of wealth effectively prevents something like 4 or 5 billion unique minds from participating in the economic, scientific, artistic, and political development of Earth's society.

(Communism, even in its idealized form, sure as hell isn't the answer to these problems, though. We need to eliminate scarcity of resources by finding more resources for everyone, not by arbitrarily limiting everyone's resources to a select amount that is too small. Funding scientific advancements over defense budgets and funding things like space exploration will help address these issues. The further humanity advances scientifically, the less scarce our resources will become, and the more everyone in future generations can be equally enriched to a far greater extent than we could possibly imagine. The alternative...dividing our scarce present amount of resources among 6 billion people...would have disastrous consequences and cannot seriously be considered.)

There's a certain reasoning underlying that the totality of the statement must be addressed and isolating just the "white" or "male" or "rich" or "few" or "certain nation-states" components on their own only partially addresses the problem. But "white," "male," "rich," and "few" are all almost certainly parts of the problem. We can address the individual components while acknowledging that the full breadth of the fundamental issue cannot be accurately summed in a single argument.

EDIT: Aww man, everyone ignored my massively long post. =P

[DFM]

You specifically said "white people rule the world."

So what you're basically saying is that there's some global network that all white people have access to, where ostensibly they discuss ways of staying on top and keeping those filthy minorities down?

That's as preposterous as assuming all black people are friends.

Rich people rule the world. Poor white people are just as fucked as anyone.





The fact that our society is as utterly racist/sexist as it is without an ancient cabal of evil white men propagating it should tell you how serious and difficult to eliminate the problem is.

Rich people rule the world, yes, I think we can all agree on that. What we're trying to point out is that all the rich people are white. If racism was the non-issue you claim it to be, if it really wasn't part of the core of our entire social hierarchy, this would not be the case. The poor would be oppressed by a racially diverse group of overlords.

I'm not going to touch the idea that poor people are poor because they're stupid and lazy, I don't think it really deserves acknowledgement.

Edit: Thread moving fast

[Premmy]

I'd also like to note my focus on the issue of culture, as that's my personal kick.

[Funka Genocide]

It is preposterous. A preposterous reading of Premonition's statement.

You're just handwaving racism away by saying that it's all about socioeconomics... and then handwaving socioeconomic issues away by saying that it's all about personal responsability. Repeating these things isn't going to make them true.

Well, I believe that there are lingering effects from ACTUAL racism that still hamper society today. (You know, the kind of racism where white people owned other people as property after kidnapping them and transporting them across oceans, or the kind of racism where "separate but equal" was considered a step forward, or basically the real "holy shit this is evil and ruining people's lives" kind of racism that civil rights leaders have been fighting since they first had the right to do so.) but the tools are in place to allow anyone to dig themselves out of poverty and into a decent life.

I am not saying the elevating yourself out of poverty is easy, but I would consider it necessary. Necessary and entirely feasible.

I am saying that poverty is the major concern, not racism. What you need to do is funnel more money into poverty stricken communities and somehow reeducate people into accepting that education is a positive thing. How many young underprivileged children go through their school careers hating the system and performing poorly due to apathy and frustration? Where are their parents? I mean every kid at one point or another gets fed up with school, that's why parents are there to keep their children focused and positive, where the fuck are the parents?

I mean, I don't know what you propose to do. Throw money at the problem until it goes away I guess?

No, I'm not going to put the blinders on and accept that everyone is just a hapless victim with no way out, that's the kind of bullshit drug dealers and murderers pull out of their ass when they're caught. I didn't have a choice, society made me do it.

Fuck that. There's always a choice, and where there's a choice there's the possibility of making the wrong one, and that's your own god damn fault.

Sure, you could sum it up as me hand waving all societies evils away with a simplistic answer, but I believe personal responsibility and accountability aren't all that simplistic at all.

Also, poor people are poor because they're born that way, they remain poor because they lack the tools necessary to succeed. As to why they lack these tools, it is mainly the fault of their parents in early development, after which point it becomes their own responsibility into adulthood.

[Premmy]

cool, what does this have to do with what we're over here talking about?

[Solid Snake]

I mean, I don't know what you propose to do. Throw money at the problem until it goes away I guess?


Well, I wouldn't advocate throwing too much money into the pockets of the impoverished, if that's what you're implying.

I would advocate encouraging higher taxes on the wealthy and having those taxes be funneled into programs that improved educational opportunities for the poor, ensured they were at least clothed and fed, and (perhaps most importantly) ensured that scientific organizations received funds to engage in some serious research and development into new technologies that improved all our lives and made resources less scarce in the first place, thus assisting in alleviating the scarcity of goods and resources that is the fundamental factor contributing to impoverishment.

...Fuck. I really am sounding like a liberal these days.

[Funka Genocide]

cool, what does this have to do with what we're over here talking about?

You're not actually talking about anything Prems, your last several posts have been substance less one liners. Perhaps addressing specific concerns or making specific counterarguments would facilitate a resolution to our apparent disconnect?

[Premmy]

I was talking about racism in culture specifically, as that's what I'm interested in. You came in and made an angry post about poor people. After going back and forth with you a bit, and combing the internet, I realized this, and said so.
Edit: Actually I combed the internet for a bit, found sme good stuff to reference and make a super-long post about, then took a shower. I generally think clearer naked.

[DFM]

...Fuck. I really am sounding like a liberal these days.

The Liberal is a creature from beyond the black marsh, a wrong thing of shadows and spiders. It moves with a gurgling, half sickening lurch, corrupting all it lays its festering yellow eyes upon. Beware the bite of the Liberal, Solid Snake, lest you find yourself horribly transformed. You will become a hollow mirror, a cruel mockery of every right and noble thing you once stood for. As its poison bile festers in your veins its sight will repel you less, its stench will no longer repulse you. You will begin to see the world through its dim, hating eyes and then, Solid Snake, in the final throws of your too-short life, your dying mind will realize that you are now the Liberal, and you have much work to do.

[Kim]

...Fuck. I really am sounding like a liberal these days.

no snake you are the zombies liberals

[Funka Genocide]

I was talking about racism in culture specifically, as that's what I'm interested in. You, came in and made an angry post about poor people. After going back and forth with you a bit, and combing the internet, I realized this, and said so.

Well I suppose I was a bit miffed, fair enough.

I feel you're not really reading the substance of my posts however, moreso than them being angry rants about poor people, they are angry rants about a societal trend towards guilt shifting and a lack of accountability.

If your children are hungry yet you live in a place where you are free to work, where work is available and food is plentiful, then you are at fault.

I don't really see your basis for claiming this overarching racism that is ruling our lives though. A racial or ethnic minority citizen of the United States of America is not legally barred from employment in any field, in fact it is unconstitutional to do so. Men and women of every race are employed in ever occupation imaginable in American society. Education is expensive for everyone, and of course people who had money in their family before they were born have better odds of being affluent themselves.

Now, the root of this "racism" is that the oldest money in America is held by white families. They amassed this money generation ago in a different era when all kinds of contemporarily horrible practices were common place. However, that doesn't change the reality of today.

They control society by virtue of their wealth, they have their wealth by virtue of their ancestors privilege. Minorities don't have this advantage, however neither do the vast majority of white people. So blaming an entire race for the fact that old money rules the world just strikes me as racist as well.

Basically, I don't see the proof of obvious privilege except in the case of preexisting money in your family before birth, which only supports my claim of discrimination in America being a class based issue and not a race based issue. My statements up to this point have been made in an effort to illustrate the fact that the American government doesn't just dole out wads of cash to people based on the tint of their skin. You don't get into Harvard because you're whiter than the next guy and you don't work for Chase Manhattan because you've got blonde hair. America is, for most practical purposes, a meritocracy where ability and hard work can make you a fuck ton of cash, and having a fuckton of cash in America is a good thing.

[Amake]

This thread if funny to me because in my country Liberals are the blue-themed, generally mistrusted underdogs to the right of the political spectrum.

[Premmy]

Now, the root of this "racism" is that the oldest money in America is held by white families. They amassed this money generation ago in a different era when all kinds of contemporarily horrible practices were common place. However, that doesn't change the reality of today.
Nope, It does'nt change the fact that they've had all this time to dictate a culture that favors them.

So blaming an entire race for the fact that old money rules the world just strikes me as racist as well.
I don't recall "Blaming" anyone. I said that the people in charge, who dictate how our culture behaves as a whole, are white. So did you.

[Funka Genocide]

Nope, It does'nt change the fact that they've had all this time to dictate a culture that favors them.

I don't recall "Blaming" anyone. I said that the people in charge, who dictate how our culture behaves as a whole, are white. So did you.

So what precisely are the cultural distinctions between "white" culture and "black" culture in America and why do they exist?

If you are defining white and black as cultures and not races, then would it be fair to say that a racially black person can be culturally white? If this is the case, isn't it a personal decision to be a minority then?

[Kim]

I don't recall "Blaming" anyone. I said that the people in charge, who dictate how our culture behaves as a whole, are white. So did you.

Yeah, this seems to me an inarguable fact.

I can't really contribute much to these threads since my basic opinion is that I'm racist to a degree because my behavior is different when I am around people of different race, and this is partially due to my environment where I grew up. I go out of my way to make sure I don't treat people differently, and I don't, at least consciously, view people of other races as inferior to my own. However, the fact is that racism is there, and I think it's the same way for everyone, but to varying degrees. The important thing is to recognize the problem and do your personal best to be less racist.

I probably could have worded that whole thing better, but I think the vague idea was more or less conveyed.

[Premmy]

So what precisely are the cultural distinctions between "white" culture and "black" culture in America and why do they exist?
White culture would be culture belonging to people of European decent. This country was founded by people of European descent. The culture of this country was founded by those same people. Those people also were, and continue to, decide how cultures of other people and their elements are represented by value of their control via numbers, money and effed up legislation

If you are defining white and black as cultures and not races, then would it be fair to say that a racially black person can be culturally white? If this is the case, isn't it a personal decision to be a minority then?
I am defining Race as race, that bullshit sociological construct we use because we're too lazy to learn the difference between different ethnicities.

Ethnicities have their own cultures, but either way, they're grouped under "race", so the cultures of individual ethnicities can just as fairly be considered the cultures of various "Races"
.

[Funka Genocide]

White culture would be culture belonging to people of European decent. This country was founded by people of European descent. The culture of this Country was founded by those same people. Those people also were, and continue to, decide how cultures of other peopel and their elements are represented by value of their control via numbers, money and effed up legislation

I am defining Race as race, that bullshit sociological construct we use because we're too lazy to learn the difference between different ethnicities.

Ethnicities have their own cultures, but either way, they're grouped under "race", so the cultures of individual ethnicities can just as fairly be considered the cultures of various "Races"
.

So you are making an argument for racism by insisting that culture and race are intrinsic to one another, as well as espousing the ideal that one culture can be more significant for a person based solely on their race.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that culture is mutable and that people can adapt to new cultures over time. Culture does not come part and parcel with your genetics.

So what fairer manner of discerning a national culture could their be than a consensus of the majority?

Why can't there be a fusion of cultures rather than these artificially supported distinctions? Why does one culture seek to exist as a minority? What is the gain?

Moreover, what are the notable distinctions between white cultural mores and black cultural mores? Why do these exist and how did they come about? Considering that the basis of modern "black American" culture is just as european as "white American" culture, why does one merit disdain while the other does not? (assuming of course that you have an agenda of ending the rule of white American culture over American society.)

[POS Industries]

Nope, It does'nt change the fact that they've had all this time to dictate a culture that favors them.

I don't recall "Blaming" anyone. I said that the people in charge, who dictate how our culture behaves as a whole, are white. So did you.
But you seem to be focusing more on their being white rather than on the major contributing factor to their power and influence, which is them being rich. And as their wealth is the source of their stranglehold on our culture, they are predominantly interested in gaining more money and making sure everyone else has less money so as to keep their position, and this motivation is quite colorblind.

Yes, their being rich is largely due to the aftereffects of the racially oppressive socioeconomic system that their ancestors lived in which did in fact explicitly favor white people by law, but their continued reign in our modern era has very little grounding in race whatsoever.

[Premmy]

So you are making an argument for racism by insisting that culture and race are intrinsic to one another, as well as espousing the ideal that one culture can be more significant for a person based solely on their race.
I am making the argument that culture created by a specific group is the dominant one in our nation because of oppression.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that culture is mutable and that people can adapt to new cultures over time. Culture does not come part and parcel with your genetics.
which has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

So what fairer manner of discerning a national culture could their be than a consensus of the majority?
Maybe not one culture stomping all over the other, but them all working together peacefully?

Why can't there be a fusion of cultures rather than these artificially supported distinctions? Why does one culture seek to exist as a minority? What is the gain?
Seek to exist as a minority? the seek to go about their own damn business. The Dominant culture says "NO! FUCK YOU WE'RE IN CHARGE! DO WHAT WE SAY!" and they either do, and deal with the issues of living a culture designed FOR someone other than them, or they could reject it and be marginalized.

Moreover, what are the notable distinctions between white cultural mores and black cultural mores? Why do these exist and how did they come about? Considering that the basis of modern "black American" culture is just as european as "white American" culture, why does one merit disdain while the other does not?
A: Black Folk/ White Folk dichotomy, it's more complicated then that.I could give less of a fuck about white Culture, I just don't like that part of it is impeding on other
B:cultures, and the people who are part of them, right to exist.

Think of it like wearing someone else's clothes. They're not going to fit right, and you'd rather wear your own. But they not only make you wear theirs, but tell you yours are horrible and stupid and evil and whatnot.
(assuming of course that you have an agenda of ending the rule of white American culture over American society.)
This is....bad?
But you seem to be focusing more on their being white rather than on the major contributing factor to their power and influence, which is them being rich. And as their wealth is the source of their stranglehold on our culture, they are predominantly interested in gaining more money and making sure everyone else has less money so as to keep their position, and this motivation is quite colorblind.
This means white people are'nt in charge how?
I said they're in charge, they dictate the culture, this creates a cultural bias in favor of white people.

I am talking about racism in particular. If I was talking about sexism, I'd mention the ties to race and economics, but the focus would be on gender.I'm talking about the racial aspect.

Yes, their being rich is largely due to the aftereffects of the racially oppressive socioeconomic system that their ancestors lived in which did in fact explicitly favor white people by law, but their continued reign in our modern era has very little grounding in race whatsoever.
This has no bearing on the fact that they're still in power and this still affects how our country deals with the issue of race.

I'm here talking about racism, and you keep trying NOT to talk about racism.
V
Avoiding talking about issues of race altogether is no better. If you avoid, deny, or ignore it, you set yourself up to contribute to it by dint of not having any sort of adequate knowledge of the topic.You set yourself up to reacting negatively to the topic when it comes up.

Imagine you have an illness, if you get upset and close yourself off every time the subject is brought up by your doctor, you're not going to get the proper treatment, because you're preventing yourself from addressing the problem.

[Funka Genocide]

When you advocate the existence of one culture, you alienate all others. This is one of the basic realities of culture. So, for whatever form of perfect harmony you might be searching for these are only two solutions, either one arbitrary culture becomes dominate and those seeking to advance the furthest in the society embrace this dominate culture, or you attempt to abolish all cultures as defined by tradition and institute a new culture derived from "higher" principles such as science or what have you. In effect, you will always end up with minority cultures because people enjoy this "white/black dichotomy" as you've put it. People want to belong, and will use the flimsiest pretenses to feel as if they do.

(such as hey, look at that guy! He looks more like me than that other guy!)

All I see you doing is waving a great big "go us" flag without any real reason to. Because that's the way you were brought up maybe? How is that any more valid than the majority culture doing the same thing?

Do you know why people don't want to talk about racism? Because they're fucking sick of it. It doesn't need to exist anymore, fuck it never needed to exist in the first place. People like us who are getting to the points in our lives and careers where we start to determine how society functions don't give a fuck about racism because we are not racist. The more you try to affirm it's existence the more annoying it gets. You want to point out racism when it happens? Go for it! That's why we have all those laws! But just going on and on about how it's ruining your life or society or whatever with no central focus doesn't seem to do much. Honestly, what barriers are in front of you that have been placed their by racism? Lets talk about that and how to get rid of them. Trying to build racism into the monster in the closet is, to me, counterproductive. Raising children to be wary of racism to the point of paranoia is counterproductive.

It's like that god damn chicken skit from the Chapelle show. Who the fuck cares anymore? Why should we? Stomp out racism where you find it and live your life the way you want to the rest of the time.

[Azisien]

America is, for most practical purposes, a meritocracy where ability and hard work can make you a fuck ton of cash, and having a fuckton of cash in America is a good thing.

I don't have time to reply to this rapidly ballooning thread but this stuck out like a sore thumb to me. For all intents and purposes Canada is America and America is Canada when it comes to either being a meritocracy. That is, they aren't at all.

In almost any given situation, unless your abilities border on savant, who you know is more important than what you can do. Who do rich people know? Other rich people.

Combine that with what you already stated, inheritance. Now rich people not only know the right people, but they have effectively unlimited resources to raise their kids on the best. Wealthier people can afford the time to look to the future and go "Hm, okay, if I do X,Y,Z, I'll have a fuckton more cash." Poor people can't afford the time to look to the future because they're wondering what they'll eat tonight and if they'll have electricity in April.

Stir in a healthy dose of racism, sexism, whateverism, that has taken inheritance through the generations and created a wealth distribution in North America that is skewed, or "top heavy."

Knead your fuckocracy dough for a couple minutes and you'll see there's even more to just what you know but also how you act. The wealthy upper echelons of North America, including even middle class jobs, expect certain cultural behaviours and if you're from another culture entirely, well, you might just be fucked.

Consider, if America were actually a meritocracy, what that might look like. As others I think mentioned, you'd probably end up with a perfect demographic mixture of various ethnicities and so on at the top, middle, and bottom of the social ladder, with a little bit of randomness. This isn't really the case. As a relatively jarring personal experience, my current university program has close to a 1000 students enrolled, and its something like 94% middle-class to rich white people. Contrast that to Ottawa's actual demographics which is probably 75% white people. If America is drastically different, then I guess I've been missing out.

Add a couple drops of exclusivity of education in America, which I think is worse than Canada based on the bitching about tuition fees I've heard, and your fuckocracy dough is about ready to bake.

Set your melting pot and put in your fuckocracy dough, add in all the other possible factors that stab away at pure merit leading one to success: lets see, the shrinking opportunity for small businesses and/or huge start-up fees even if you wanted to, racism and sexism I already mentioned but there's also every other -ism in the book.

So in conclusion, your final product is probably the most horribly inefficient meritocracy you could manage. Sure, super talented people will do fine. Your president is super talented. Obama could probably convince me to go to war against Greenland because they stole some teddy bears, and I'd go, and I'm not even American. That's his talent. He's actually a good example of "Supers." Supers are really talented people that overcome whatever disability they have and end up getting featured on Oprah. The other thing they do is blanket the other 99%. I mean hell, being physically disabled isn't so bad. Look how successful Stephen Hawking is!

America, North America, and probably most places, aren't meritocracies. They're probably more inherit-networking-luck-meritocracies.

[Premmy]

When you advocate the existence of one culture, you alienate all others.
Soooo, other people and their cultures can't exist because.... other people exist?
This is one of the basic realities of culture. So, for whatever form of perfect harmony you might be searching for these are only two solutions, either one arbitrary culture becomes dominate and those seeking to advance the furthest in the society embrace this dominate culture,[/quote]
Or, you know, they exist side by side, all of them obeying a set of rules of interaction they al decide upon, and none of them mistreating the others? you know, what America bullshits at doing?
or you attempt to abolish all cultures as defined by tradition and institute a new culture derived from "higher" principles such as science or what have you.
Huh?

In effect, you will always end up with minority cultures because people enjoy this "white/black dichotomy" as you've put it.

The "Black Floks/White folks" dichotomy I'm referring to is only considering Black people and White People in discussions of racism, and not talking about asians, latinos, First nations people, pacific Islanders, Aboriginals, and anyone else who's not white or black.

People want to belong, and will use the flimsiest pretenses to feel as if they do.

(such as hey, look at that guy! He looks more like me than that other guy!)

All I see you doing is waving a great big "go us" flag without any real reason to. Because that's the way you were brought up maybe? How is that any more valid than the majority culture doing the same thing?
Cause I don't want mine to stomp all over anyone else? I just don't want to have a culture that tells me I suck and x-group is totally awesome and better?

The more you try to affirm it's existence the more annoying it gets. You want to point out racism when it happens? Go for it! That's why we have all those laws! But just going on and on about how it's ruining your life or society or whatever with no central focus doesn't seem to do much.
That does'nt make any sense, I'm saying that the culture is biased towards white people. That's racism.

Honestly, what barriers are in front of you that have been placed their by racism? Lets talk about that and how to get rid of them. Trying to build racism into the monster in the closet is, to me, counterproductive. Raising children to be wary of racism to the point of paranoia is counterproductive
I'm saying racism is an integral part of our society and that we should be able to talk about it candidly like adults instead of getting pissed everytime it gets brought up.

[Funka Genocide]

I'm calling bullshit on that one. Who you know might be important, but you don't get shit done without having the right people.

You need to be qualified for most high paying occupations, you earn your qualifications through education and work experience.

[POS Industries]

I'm here talking about racism, and you keep trying NOT to talk about racism.
No, I've talked about racism pretty plainly, and where and from whom in our society it's most prevalent, and aside from the fact that a large amount of the rich people who have the money--and therefore power and influence in how our society operates--are white (another large share of them, I might add, are also Jewish, and I wouldn't exactly say they've had an easy go of it throughout the course of history, either), there doesn't actually appear to be a decidedly racist motivation behind their agenda to retain power.

I could also assert that, while you keep saying you don't want to turn this discussion into a black folk/white folk dichotomy, it does come off like much of your point is that it's everyone else against the white folks keeping them down.

You also haven't really specified exactly what exclusive aspects to your culture or any other non-white American's culture are being quashed by the power and influence of White America™. Also, what of the countless members of decidedly different white cultures that have emigrated here over the past couple centuries? Which white culture is repressing the elements of their respective heritages? And what of the major influences that black culture specifically has had on the development of white culture in America, like art and music?

There has been far more to the development of our society than "WHITE PEOPLE SMASH", hasn't there?

[Azisien]

I'm calling bullshit on that one. Who you know might be important, but you don't get shit done without having the right people.

You need to be qualified for most high paying occupations, you earn your qualifications through education and work experience.

Right, and who you know + resources to get there = you get there in greater numbers and faster than someone lacking either of the two. Of course there's some mobility in both directions, but that mobility is skewed by the laundry list of factors above, none of them being "laziness." A "for all practical purposes" meritocracy would not look like America looks.

[Premmy]

No, I've talked about racism pretty plainly, and where and from whom in our society it's most prevalent, and aside from the fact that a large amount of the rich people who have the money--and therefore power and influence--in how our society operates are white (another large share of them, I might add, are also Jewish, and I wouldn't exactly say they've had an easy go of it throughout the course of history, either), there doesn't actually appear to be a decidedly racist motivation behind their agenda to retain power.

But it still is biased against non-white people. Does'nt matter if it's intentional or not, Still happens.

I could also assert that, while you keep saying you don't want to turn this discussion into a black folk/white folk dichotomy, it does come off like much of your point is that it's everyone else against the white folks keeping them down.
It's the white folks going about their business, but their business being the most important business to go about.
You also haven't really specified exactly what exclusive aspects to your culture or any other non-white American's culture are being quashed by the power and influence of White America™. Also, what of the countless members of decidedly different white cultures that have emigrated here over the past couple centuries? Which white culture is repressing the elements of their respective heritages? And what of the major influences that black culture specifically has had on the development of white culture in America, like art and music?
All of which must be filtered through the lens of white cultural appreciation.

Rock is a black form of music. It's only the cultural power it is in our society because of white appreciation, interpretation, and distribution of it.
There has been far more to the development of our society than "WHITE PEOPLE SMASH", hasn't there?
Not really, but that's history, who cares? THe point is to understand where we are, and move on from there.

[POS Industries]

That pretty much responded to absolutely nothing I put forward to you. Please try again.

[Funka Genocide]

I refuse to believe that I'm some freak occurrence in the harsh landscape of white supremacy that is America. I am a successful, young American minority that had no specific advantages. I just worked hard (but not ridiculously hard) to get where I am today, and I continue to work towards furthering my professional agenda. I am not a savant or a genius or any sort of spectacular person, just a reasonably intelligent person with ambition enough to keep going forward.

Telling people they can't succeed because they're not white is racist, I'm pretty sure no one ever told me that when I was growing up. (or at least if they did I didn't pay attention to them.)

Also, what is to stop you from "knowing the right people" if you're a minority? Because you have a deeper tan you aren't allowed to mingle with the fair folk?

What the fuck is this thread even about?

[Archbio]

Telling people they can't succeed because they're not white is racist[...]

The only present-day instance of racism that you actually acknowledge as such? Ironic!

Now tuning to Whip It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbt30UnzRWw), by Devo.

[Premmy]

That pretty much responded to absolutely nothing I put forward to you. Please try again.
Care to explain how?

I refuse to believe that I'm some freak occurrence in the harsh landscape of white supremacy that is America. I am a successful, young American minority that had no specific advantages. I just worked hard (but not ridiculously hard) to get where I am today, and I continue to work towards furthering my professional agenda. I am not a savant or a genius or any sort of spectacular person, just a reasonably intelligent person with ambition enough to keep going forward.
Pretty much anybody who reaches a good degree of success is a freak occurrence, since, and we all agree on this, Rich people are constantly shitting on everyone.

[Funka Genocide]

The only present-day instance of racism that you actually acknowledge as such? Ironic!

The irony is intentional. I would have assumed that you'd pick up on that.

But seriously, where is the big disagreement here? What assertions are you trying to make?

I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, just feel the water has been a bit muddied and I'm not precisely sure what you are arguing for or against, would just like to have things stated concisely.

no but seriously, what are you people trying to say exactly? (I'm not actually angry by the way, if you can believe that! just think of me saying all this after sucking on a helium balloon, you'll laug)

[Premmy]

I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, just feel the water has been a bit muddied and I'm not precisely sure what you are arguing for or against, would just like to have things stated concisely.

no but seriously, what are you people trying to say exactly?
white people are in charge of brown people. Brown people have to do what white people want. This does'nt always work out in brown people's favor. This is bad.
(I'm not actually angry by the way, if you can believe that! just think of me saying all this after sucking on a helium balloon, you'll laug)
I laugh at everything you say. :P

[Funka Genocide]

Ok, see I just don't agree with that. Mainly based on my assertions earlier that culture is not mandated by ethnicity. I should have been doing research this whole time but apparently I got carried away. Hopefully this thread is still open tomorrow so I can have time to look up some pertinent figures and trends and whatnot to form a more informed opinion on the matter.

[Archbio]

(I'm not actually angry by the way, if you can believe that! just think of me saying all this after sucking on a helium balloon, you'll laug)

Helium wouldn't be the first gas that'd come to mind.

[POS Industries]

Care to explain how?
You didn't actually acknowledge any of my questions but one--regarding black culture's influence on white culture--and even then you only used one example and said that it only became influential on white culture because white people liked it, which is basically saying that the sky is blue because it's blue.

I asked you for specifics for four different questions and you only half-assedly answered one, and then ignored anything I had to say about the machinations behind the real problem in our society by focusing on the color of the skin of a large share of the Powers That Be.

We're not going to get anywhere if we ignore the issue of racism entirely, but we're also not going to get anywhere if we attribute racism to everything. I mean, would switching out the rich, greedy, Machiavellian white fucks in suits that currently control our system with rich, greedy, Machiavellian fucks in suits who aren't white actually make a damn bit of difference? Or is being a rich, greedy, Machiavellian fuck in a suit something only white people do?

[Funka Genocide]

Helium wouldn't be the first gas that'd come to mind.

oook... but you didn't state your platform. I apologize for being abrasive earlier but I'd really like to know what we're arguing for or against here.

[Premmy]

Okay, I just realized, that, apparently, Actually saying white people, and trying to be kinda snappy and attention grabbing with my titles might have caused all this.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

No I think its that your argument doesn't make a lot of sense reall and POS is raising a lot of valid counters which are you are ignoring.

[POS Industries]

Okay, I just realized, that, apparently, Actually saying white people, and trying to be kinda snappy and attention grabbing with my titles might have caused all this.
Well, is it how you really feel about the situation? I mean, I apologize for becoming a bit combative, but I guess I'm honestly rather hurt by your comments about pasty white dudes in general, which is a group I happened to have been born into. If you really believe that it's predominantly a matter of white people oppressing and squelching the cultures of non-whites, where do you draw the line at which white people are the problem?

[Premmy]

It's not an issue of individual white people, it's just a white dominance of the culture, I'm not HURT by any of this in an emotional sense, learning about this stuff helped me. OUT of that.
edit: I suppose I just figured the whole "WHITEY!" thing would have been rather obviously a joke, and a means to draw attention.
*shrugs*

Edit2; Like, okay, Replace every instance of "White" with "Japanese" and You've got a pretty good example of how japan deals with everybody else, and Japan is Racist as hell, Just look a Geminex's avatar. Individual japanese people may or may not be racist, but the culture sure is.

[Funka Genocide]

Incidentally, when I was stationed in Japan I'd go out clubbing with my "black friends" and they'd get all the chicks. I think it was because I was (and am) a "nerd".

[POS Industries]

See, I don't think it was a joke, considering that you've continually used it in a serious context throughout the course of this discussion. I mean, sure, Japanese culture is dominant in Japan, because that's pretty much all that's actually part of their society. Racism is basically just intertwined with their nationalism, and they have a tendency to treat every other Asian country with the same degree of contempt. However, over the course of the past couple centuries, Japan has been immensely influenced by American culture primarily, and their country is, as well, controlled by rich, greedy, Machiavellian fucks in suits.

Of course, that's been true of every society throughout recorded history. The only thing that's changed is the fashion.

So I ask you again, which white culture is dominant, in your opinion? Because there isn't just one. I mean, I certainly wouldn't disregard the struggles that generations of Irish Catholics and Italians have undergone as they fought for equal standing in American society, for instance. Furthermore, what aspects of all the other cultures are they marginalizing, and what aspects of your culture specifically do you feel are being repressed?

[Odjn]

You didn't actually acknowledge any of my questions but one--regarding black culture's influence on white culture--and even then you only used one example and said that it only became influential on white culture because white people liked it, which is basically saying that the sky is blue because it's blue.

I asked you for specifics for four different questions and you only half-assedly answered one, and then ignored anything I had to say about the machinations behind the real problem in our society by focusing on the color of the skin of a large share of the Powers That Be.

We're not going to get anywhere if we ignore the issue of racism entirely, but we're also not going to get anywhere if we attribute racism to everything. I mean, would switching out the rich, greedy, Machiavellian white fucks in suits that currently control our system with rich, greedy, Machiavellian fucks in suits who aren't white actually make a damn bit of difference? Or is being a rich, greedy, Machiavellian fuck in a suit something only white people do?

We certainly are the ones who perfected it.

http://cdn.wg.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/caruso.jpg

[Premmy]

Of course, that's been true of every society throughout recorded history. The only thing that's changed is the fashion.
Yup, and this time it's white people. Doesn't mean white people are EEBIL fuckers, just means the guys in charge who're shitting on everyone are white.


So I ask you again, which white culture is dominant, in your opinion? Because there isn't just one.

Little bit of this, little bit of that, mostly a western Christian-inspired mindset, but that's still a WIDE variety of groups.
I mean, I certainly wouldn't disregard the struggles that generations of Irish Catholics and Italians have undergone as they fought for equal standing in American society, for instance.

Oh, most definitely, they have their own problems to deal with, and they're as much oppressed as anyone else.

But race is strictly an issue of visuals, ethnicity is real, race is a construct, one that covers a wide realm of ethnicities.


Furthermore, what aspects of all the other cultures are they marginalizing, and what aspects of your culture specifically do you feel are being repressed?
Standards of beauty, Music that has'nt been filtered through the dominant culture's ideals, clothing, food, general aspects.
Is Mexican Food what we "normally" eat? or something "exotic" or "different"?
asian clothes? Black literature? native american music? No, not in the majority of cases. We eat things from European cultures, wear things descended from them, read books from them, as a whole, go by cultural mores influenced by their religions. S' just how it is. it's good to be aware of this, so you don't let it tweak your brain too much, and you do that by talking openly about it, and using pretty direct language, so yeah I say it I' not meaning it in any hateful way, or expressing some sort of "woe is me, I hates the white man" way, it's just a fact.

Me?
Strictly speaking, I'm Bi-racial, I myself don't have a culture individually.

I identify as Black & bi-racial because I'm, in social terms, either "Black" or "?" at any given moment.
some people don't understand how that works, but it and a knowledge of the general racism in our culture keeps me pretty centered and happy. I know just what I'm up against, what I DON'T have to deal with, where I am, and why the most important people don't look like me, care about me, and why some people do/don't. for me it's not
"WAAA/RAAAGH DA WHITE MAN IS EEBIL"
it's
"eh, white man's in charge, kinda sucks, try to do my best to keep it from getting in, pass that on to my kids, move on with my life"

[POS Industries]

Yup, and this time it's white people. Doesn't mean white people are EEBIL fuckers, just means the guys in charge who're shitting on everyone are white.
So, what would having non-whites in charge shitting on everyone change?

Little bit of this, little bit of that, mostly a western Christian-inspired mindset, but that's still a WIDE variety of groups.
You're right, it is. Decidedly and often wildly different groups, as well. But if you wanted to centralize it in specifics, you'd want to go with English Protestant, which makes sense because the large share of the colonies established that eventually formed the US were English, with a sizable minority of Dutch. And that's the culture we started out with and built from.

Oh, most definitely, they have their own problems to deal with, and they're as much oppressed as anyone else.

But race is strictly an issue of visuals, ethnicity is real, race is a construct, one that covers a wide realm of ethnicities.
That's nice but it ignores the greater truth of matter: Racism is just one element of the greater ingrained problem of human bigotry and is no more atrocious than sexism, religious intolerance, homophobia, or oppressing a group of people based on their specific ethnicity instead of the imaginary idea of their "race." Laws put in place by white people to outlaw interracial marriage earlier in our nation's history is exactly the same as the record numbers of black men in California who came out in force to vote for Obama during the last Presidential election also voting in favor of Prop 8.

Standards of beauty,
While this is a shame, it's worth noting that the American standard of beauty is so psychotically unrealistic, unhealthy, and outright harmful to the psyche of the American populace that I honestly can't decide where to begin in fixing it. Also, I seem to recall you saying earlier that race--typically considered a physical characteristic--didn't necessarily have to do with culture, but that's being nitpicky on my part.

Music that has'nt been filtered through the dominant culture's ideals,
I like that you acknowledge the influence white culture has had on black culture in the form of music without acknowledging that it goes both ways and much moreso in the favor of black culture influencing the development of musical trends throughout American history.

clothing,
This is definitely another one going both ways, with black influence on clothing trends being more dominant in casual wear and white influence being more dominant in professional fashion.

food, general aspects.
Is Mexican Food what we "normally" eat? or something "exotic" or "different"?
In all honesty, what we call "mexican" food--or any particular type of food in this country, European, Mexican, Asian or otherwise--is so decidedly different from the food actually native to their respective areas that they are generally completely unrecognizable and bear similarity in name only.

They've been what is referred to as "Americanized," altered drastically to better please the pallets of the American populace as a whole regardless of the ethnic origins of any individual citizen's family. This homogenized Americanization process is something we as a nation, regardless of race, creed, or gender do to pretty much everything that arrives on our shores.

asian clothes?
Pretty sure they just wear the same shit we do in most Asian countries, unless you're thinking of stereotypical outfits that have been out of fashion for well over a century.

Black literature?
There are numerous celebrated black authors while the vast majority of "white literature" is absolute swill designed to pander to the lowest common denominator for a quick buck. There is a decidedly racist quotient in the lower number of notable black works compared to white in American literary history, but it's not a cultural influence issue so much as it's only been about a century or so since any African-Americans could even get enough of an education to even write a book.

Now, if you're counting European literature into the equation, then that's a technology issue. Movable type was invented in Germany and China, and the Chinese generally opted not to pursue its use, whereas the technology gained popularity throughout Europe. Therefore, more copies of more European books could be published, leaving the continent with a greater lasting impact on literature overall.

native american music?
That's not even fair to include. They were nearly driven to extinction and largely only managed to survive by interbreeding with white people. Once again, the racist quotient involved wasn't societal standards so much as indiscriminate genocide. It's hard for a musical genre to gain steam when most of the people who played it were murdered.

Me?
Strictly speaking, I'm Bi-racial, I myself don't have a culture individually.
Well, strictly speaking, neither do most people in this country. The vast majority of Americans whose families have been here for more than a couple generations or so possess some amount of mixed race ancestry, and even most of those who themselves or their families have recently emigrated here still probably do, though likely far less pronounced.

The lion's share of people in this country have Native American ancestors, probably including you. I myself am part Cherokee, for instance, though for tribal law reasons I'm not allowed to be part of their community. You also undoubtedly have white ancestors, as well. Most African-Americans do.

But all of that is ultimately irrelevant to who you and I are. "Culture" is just as made up as "race." It's just fashion trends and slang, for all intents and purposes. Deciding to follow the social mores of one culture or another is nothing more than choosing a crowd with whom to blend in.

for me it's not
"WAAA/RAAAGH DA WHITE MAN IS EEBIL"
it's
"eh, white man's in charge, kinda sucks, try to do my best to keep it from getting in, pass that on to my kids, move on with my life"
What's the difference, really? You're dedicated to keeping the influence of a group of people whose skin color is different than yours out of your life and out of the lives of your hypothetical children, unless I'm misreading you, which suggests that you think that their cultural influence is a bad thing. You're treating them as an other to separate yourself from based on fickle, illusory trends.

What does it accomplish?

[Jagos]

I am saying that poverty is the major concern, not racism. What you need to do is funnel more money into poverty stricken communities and somehow reeducate people into accepting that education is a positive thing. How many young underprivileged children go through their school careers hating the system and performing poorly due to apathy and frustration? Where are their parents? I mean every kid at one point or another gets fed up with school, that's why parents are there to keep their children focused and positive, where the fuck are the parents?

I had to chime in here. There's always been an 80-20 Rule that's been in effect since I can remember. No matter how much money you funnel to a project, people, or anything else, 80% of that will go to the richest 20%. It's been called Sturgeon's Law, the Pareto Principle but effectively it's the same.

It's a wasted effort if you funnel money to lower classes with no boundaries on what they're intended for. I mean seriously, there's places you just don't want to go to because of the poor economic status of the people there. They work, have 3-5 children, and the community doesn't help to raise the family.

You ask where the parents are? Might be on welfare, might not be able to come out all the time to check on their children. Might be a determinator mother who doesn't want the father around. There's so many variables it's not even funny.

But one thing we can agree on, even though the internet has made it easier to find aid, it can't help when there's not enough time to look around. I've heard how there's been many people who have just enough money for bills. How can they ever aspire to get on this list (http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/06/richest-black-americans-busienss-billionaires-richest-black-americans.html) when they have priorities?

Pretty sure they just wear the same shit we do in most Asian countries, unless you're thinking of stereotypical outfits that have been out of fashion for well over a century
There is a debate to say we influenced their style for suits, traditional dress and everything else. Even though I know Japan still wears the kimono, it's a shell of what it means anymore (IIRC)

[Hanuman]

What bit would you like me to cite? Cause every study ever done in the last 40 years on the influence of environment versus genes overwhelmingly concludes that environment is far more critical than genetic upbringing.
The simplest way to look at it is that the brain- our most critical part- is barely developed when you are born the first years of life are when it develops ad that development is pretty much entirely environmental determined.
And then there is the fact that genes react different to different environments. There is no one simple gene that always does one thing- the body is a complex set of interactions which depend on so many more things than genetic interactions.
Even at its absolute most basic level the tertiary structure of a gene is determined by environmental factors- if you change these factors you change the final behaviour.
If you want me to cite a specific thing I can but just go to google- this is simple basic stuff, first year biology.
I'm pretty sure I cited a whole lot of stuff the last time you made this ridiculous argument- so you can go back and read that one.

And changing society is far cheaper than molecular cells- or do you wat me to cite that too..
Since you appeared to be stating all of these things as facts I've been reading it like a Wiki page, if this offended you then I'm sorry.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well they are all facts.
I just want to know what you are contending about it.

[Azisien]

Near total environmental determination is hardly a fact in general. I think for the purposes of this thread about racism and bigotry, though, it's all pretty environmental.
Edit: Worth mentioning too that teasing apart gene-environment interactions in humans is really really hard. Most ethics boards don't allow selective breeding of human subjects, so, yeah.

[POS Industries]

There is a debate to say we influenced their style for suits, traditional dress and everything else. Even though I know Japan still wears the kimono, it's a shell of what it means anymore (IIRC)
Even still, passively influencing a change in fashion trends isn't particularly a form of racial oppression, and blaming the "white-controlled" system for the lack of prevalence of foreign influence in mainstream American fashion while the countries in question don't even wear anything particularly different themselves is a bit silly.

If anything, I seem to recall compulsory wearing of a specific hairstyle under penalty of death was really big in Imperial China for a couple centuries, at least.

[Funka Genocide]

I think the main issue here is the institutional racism that still exists in our society as a product of generations of actual oppression.

yes, if you go back even 40 years, shit was real bad for minorities. This wasn't some random comments from ignorant bigots or getting followed around in department stores by jackass security guards, this was real, systemic oppression to favor the white majority.

Shit like that is going to leave a mark, but hanging on to it like some kind of grudge is counter productive. Yes, the majority of people with actual wealth in America are white, yes this is a byproduct of racial privilige in the past. These are real problems, but it's not as if the government isn't trying to legislate solutions.

Social welfare programs, federal education grants, affirmative action, anti-discrimination laws, all are efforts to balance the racial equation, all are the legacy of great civil rights leaders.

But what more can be done?

Can you devise some incredible social program that will suddenly revitalize impoverished neighborhoods and impart a desire for success in the hearts and minds of downtrodden minorities? Can you produce an inspirational commercial to air on PBS that will suddenly make everyone buy into the concept of national brotherhood?

No, you can't.

The truth of the matter is that money is the lifeblood of our society, and the rich fucks with the lion's share of it derive their status and power from that money. They're not going to go spreading it around like peanut butter on toast for the sake of racial equality. This society is capitalist, just ask all the homeless people you've ever met. They failed at life to such an extent that the system pretty much said "fuck it, we're out."

Which is why I emphasize personal responsibility as a societal solution. No one is going to swoop in and save you or your community from poverty. You have to do it yourself.

If we take "White flight" as an example, we see that what it really amounts to is people with money leaving, devaluing property and a subsequent influx of poor people. If we don't consider race, we can see the problem is that poor people ruin communities which in turn increases the likelihood of people from those communities being poor.

So how do you stop that? Don't be poor.

It's probably a lot of personal pride and anger on my part that fuels these comments, but I have never been a fan of victimhood.

Accepting that institutional racism is the limiting factor in your success is giving up. But that is what a large number of people do. This is why you see poor communities inundated with crime and unhealthy lifestyle choices, because the majority of those communities have given up on the idea of American (white, if you will) success and see themselves as alienated from the mainstream due to their poverty and skin color, when in reality all they had to do was stay in school, apply themselves and help to better their communities by bringing business and money into them. That's what it amounts to, money. resources. influence.

[Azisien]

I like how the thread began with "Don't be poor" arguments, then we realized maybe that was unnecessary, and now we're back to "Don't be poor" arguments.


Honestly, like you questioned other people's experiences, I am now pretty much questioning just how "poor as fuck" you were. Because I can pretty much count one by one and fill up both my hands with people I personally know that are crippled with debt. Hey, at least its not racism I guess?

Crippled though. Not "oh I'll just work 100 hours a week instead of the 90 I already pull" but they actually can't get out of the hole they're in unless they a) get lucky over a matter of years b) win the lottery now or c) die.

To your earlier comments of parents not giving a fuck? Why didn't they get little Timmy through school? Easy. School failed them, why would they advocate it?

School was easy as hell for me. I had two parents that both had high school educations at the very least. They understood at least a basic education is very useful. I'm the first person in my entire family tree as far back as we traced it that has a university degree, but that's just because getting a degree is way easier and more advertised now then decades ago.

Now take my friend. Both parents never finished high school. Their view of school is a negative one. This is not even an uncommon thing. Both US and Canadian education systems fail a lot of kids on a regular basis, and they're still doing it today. They don't know, understand, or live the benefits of that education. How can they pass that on, directly or indirectly, to their kids? They have two kids by the way. What do you think happened?

[Archbio]

Because I can pretty much count one by one and fill up both my hands with people I personally know that are crippled with debt.

They just don't know they should just whip it, whip it good.

Whip that debt!

[Azisien]

They just don't know they should just whip it, whip it good.

Whip that debt!

Augh, you know, that's a pretty good idea. I can't believe no one thought of this. I'ma get on the phone and let them know that immediately!

[Funka Genocide]

Azisien, I'd invite you to consider your post in relation to my statements.

You are making my case for me.

Uneducated, poor people making babies leads to those babies having a smaller chance of success. Maybe that's not the most sensitive way to put it, but that's the truth. I really don't see how you can argue that, but go ahead if you must.

For me, "poor as hell" was being brought up by a single mother who worked for slightly above minimum wage, living in a cramped household with 4 other families, never having any money or financial support once I started living my own adult life, moving out on my own at the age of 15 and working my ass off to build some manner of decent existence from the scraps I was presented with at birth etc. etc.

Accruing debt you cannot afford is another facet of ignorance. Education is the answer, but the only way for education to be successful is if it's emphasized at a young age. Terrible parents ruin the lives of their children who in turn become terrible parents.

[POS Industries]

Social welfare programs, federal education grants, affirmative action, anti-discrimination laws, all are efforts to balance the racial equation, all are the legacy of great civil rights leaders.

But what more can be done?
Actually funding and running them properly instead of gimping them to the point of ineffectiveness in order to further our current system's goal of supporting the rich on the backs of the poor.

Can you devise some incredible social program that will suddenly revitalize impoverished neighborhoods and impart a desire for success in the hearts and minds of downtrodden minorities?
Yes, but Ronald Reagan told it was really really bad and we believe him because he kept jellybeans on his desk and starred in a movie with a chimp.

[Funka Genocide]

Actually funding and running them properly instead of gimping them to the point of ineffectiveness in order to further our current system's goal of supporting the rich on the backs of the poor.


Yes, but Ronald Reagan told it was really really bad and we believe him because he kept jellybeans on his desk and starred in a movie with a chimp.

ok fair enough, but the concepts are there you just need to employ them properly. Again, this is more a matter of class stratification than racism in my opinion.

Azisien: I'd like to note that I in no way feel the American educational system is exceptional or even widely adequate, but it exists, it is free and if you pay attention you can use it as a springboard into a better life. I myself dropped out of highschool at a young age due to youthful ignorance and general stupidity. Even acknowledging all the weaknesses in the educational system however, I still consider that a mistake, as if I'd stayed in school I'd likely be making more money now.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Everything is pretty much class stratification. whe you get down to it.

[Azisien]

Azisien, I'd invite you to consider your post in relation to my statements.

You are making my case for me.

Your posts make two major statements that I see:

1) Programs are already in place to help the downtrodden. With this I agree, though you just admitted these aren't functioning as they could/should.

2) Personal responsibility on the part of the downtrodden. Fight your way to the top. I get it. It really does amount to this though: Poor people need to...stop being poor? They all need to go... have epiphanies and go get degrees with all their...liquid...cash? Go join the army with their...able-bodiedness?

Your suggestion can actually work, sure, for some people. Namely young, able-bodied people that can effectively sever their other worldly ties and go make a name for themselves. Camera shot to statue of liberty, cue inspiring music, insert Rocky montage if appropriate, America wins. If only life were like that. I'm not advocating a society of zero responsibility either. But responsibility is also hard when your life, well, blows. Different people react to the same stimulus in different ways.


Actually, your argument in #2 bears a striking resemblance to discussions we've had in classrooms on how to combat bullying in schools. Often times someone raises the the argument "Why don't you just, like, not be bullied? Stand up for yourself!" Some kids can't.

"Have some personal responsibility, just, like, don't get raped next time."

[Funka Genocide]

Well, comparing being born poor to being raped is a little off.

For one, physical force is used during rape which may be insurmountable without a weapon. Sometimes, there really isn't anything you can do and you are a victim. That is a legitimate claim to being victimized.

Sometimes, in the case of racism, you are legitimately victimized as well, as is the case with being denied service at an establishment or being denied employment based on race. We do have systems in place to deal with these legitimate circumstances, and while they're not perfect, acting like they don't exist is counterproductive.

However, in the case of poor uneducated people having kids and raising them to be poor and uneducated, the majority of the victimization is the fault of the parents. However, when you are an adult it becomes your responsibility.

yes, you might be poor as a consequence of past racial discrimination, but there is nothing stopping you from rectifying that in the modern era, and so remaining poor and not emphasizing the importance of amassing wealth to your children is your fault, or at the very least your responsibility, as no one else is going to suffer for it.

Your argument of "some kids can't" sound suspiciously racist as well. What is stopping a minority citizen from doing the same thing a white citizen can do? You go to school, graduate high school, get a job and rent a cheap place or get some room mates while you go to community college and maintain good grades that get you some scholarship money, you take out loans for the rest. You graduate college, start working in your professional field of choice and spend the rest of your young life paying off student loans. How difficult is that?

[Azisien]

Your argument of "some kids can't" sound suspiciously racist as well. What is stopping a minority citizen from doing the same thing a white citizen can do? You go to school, graduate high school, get a job and rent a cheap place or get some room mates while you go to community college and maintain good grades that get you some scholarship money, you take out loans for the rest. You graduate college, start working in your professional field of choice and spend the rest of your young life paying off student loans. How difficult is that?

Ranging somewhere from completely possible to inordinately/impossibly difficult. As we're both standing on the former end of this scale, I'm guessing, there is probably more than a little perceptive bias, which is what this whole thread seems to be about. I could sit here and pick apart each step in your Game of Life walk to the finish line but you know what, it's not really worth it.

I think I'm done.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Your argument of "some kids can't" sound suspiciously racist as well. What is stopping a minority citizen from doing the same thing a white citizen can do? You go to school, graduate high school, get a job and rent a cheap place or get some room mates while you go to community college and maintain good grades that get you some scholarship money, you take out loans for the rest. You graduate college, start working in your professional field of choice and spend the rest of your young life paying off student loans. How difficult is that?

When you are working multiple jobs from a young age to support your family so don't have time/energy for school work and have to go a shitty school where you can't concentrate because you undernourished and are raised in an environment anti-thetical to achievement/learning- I would say very difficult.
Going to college is't just about paying the fees.

[Funka Genocide]

yes but I don't see how any of that applies to minorities only.

While it's not been implicitly stated, it seems that you're implying poor white people have some indecipherable advantage over poor minorities, so what I'm really asking is, what is that advantage?

Without wealth in your family, you're up shit creek regardless of race.

I think I'm just looking at this as a personal problem and that might be skewing my views. I never said that programs that work to remove institutional racism weren't needed, in fact I am saying quite the opposite in that despite being imperfect they are helping.

I tend to look at solutions in a very direct and blunt manner, perhaps this is a byproduct of my military experience. You see something wrong, you fix it. Now, you can't fix society as one person with one band-aid, even the president can't do that (look at JFK). What you can do is fix your own life, and so that is what I emphasize. Don't like being poor? Do somethng about it! For your sake and your children's sake, all the concurrent racial diatribe isn't going to put money in your pocket or food on your table. It's the same rationale as a poor white family blaming illegal immigrants for their poverty.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I totally do't know what anyone is arguing anymore.
It doesn't apply to race and plans should help the poor rather than the racial minority which will actually work out better for them.
But the problem with saying the poor should work to not be poor seems very close to blaming the poor for being poor when the entire system is working against them and is designed to make them poorer. Poor people aren't sitting on there asses waiting for handouts- generally they are working harder than everyone else for far less reward. To say poor people need to work more to improve themselves is a pretty nonsensicle argument.

[Funka Genocide]

Work smarter not harder.

I'm not saying that poor people don't work hard, it's just that their efforts are largely wasted in that they make rich people richer and do nothing to elevate their social situation.

Basically I agree with you.

If anything it is a generational solution, as it's very unlikely that you'll be able to skip straight from abject poverty into affluence in one generation (not that I'm not trying to) What is missing is this cultural acknowledgement and acceptance of responsibility for the future.

If your life sucked because you were poor, wouldn't you want to make sure that your children's lives were better, if only slightly? Wouldn't you put all of your efforts into seeing to it that they didn't have to live the same inadequately funded lifestyle you did?

But people don't do that, they continue to scrape by and spend money on frivolous pursuits while neglecting their children. It's as if America has forgotten the meaning of sacrifice to a large extent. Maybe you should go without your cable TV and brand new SUV for the sake of saving for your children's future, maybe you shouldn't drink or smoke or eat so much fast food when you could be using those funds to save for your children's college careers, maybe instead of being indifferent and uninvolved you should teach yourself enough to be able to help your children when they struggle in school, and maybe you're just too much of a fuck up to properly raise children and you should wear a fucking condom.

[Wigmund]

Work smarter not harder.

I'm not saying that poor people don't work hard, it's just that their efforts are largely wasted in that they make rich people richer and do nothing to elevate their social situation.

It's not like people have a whole lot of fucking choices about where they work. It's nearly impossible to go out and work for oneself unless you luck out and hit a niche that no one's tapped yet - if there's any left.

Otherwise, when you're poor and desperate, you have to support your family by working god awful hours at a god awful job for god awful wages and there's Jack Fucking Shit you can do about it.

[Archbio]

And it's not like the jobs where hard work doesn't get you anywhere aren't fucking necessary for society to function.

[Funka Genocide]

As I've said before, poor people having kids they can't afford to properly raise is the key issue.

Your comment about having to feed your family illustrates this. If people didn't have kids to support they'd have a lot more mobility. Its their fault they have kids.

As for low paying jobs being necessary for society to function, what exactly are you referencing? Working retail perhaps? If you're talking about government infrastructure and service provision or agriculture or some such thing a lot of those jobs pay very well. Of course picking strawberries doesn't pay very well at all, but if you're going to argue that this is a necessary element of a functioning society I think I've got the chops to counter that.

Now if you're talking about manufacturing processed goods, well factory workers under unionized management typically make decent wages, enough to support themselves and a small family.

What industries are necessary to the functioning of our society then? Which of those industries are domestic? (of course we outsource all the really arduous, fucked up shit to other, actually oppressed third world nations.) What sort of median wage could one expect to make in an occupation that meets both of these criteria?

Let me tell you, garbage men make a decent chunk of change.

[Mirai Gen]

Its their fault they have kids.
I...guess nobody is allowed to have kids ever?

[Funka Genocide]

I...guess nobody is allowed to have kids ever?

This is America, churn out as many babies as you want, fuck you don't even have to raise them unless you're a woman! Have some fun!

Allowed? We don't dictate reproductive rights in America, so that's a silly statement.

Ever? Well, maybe all those horrible costs of living and raising your family wouldn't be so bad if you made more than 8 bucks an hour hmm?

I am not advocating government mandated reproductive law, I am advocating people pulling their heads out of their asses and their dicks out of vaginas long enough to build a stable lifestyle that can support the inclusion of children. You know, planning for a family instead of "oh fuck she's preggo."

I mean for fucks sake people, there is some obvious shit you can do to improve your lifestyle. Be frugal if you don't make a lot of money, invest in yourself (education) and don't incur unnecessary liabilities you can't afford (children).

If you make obvious, huge mistakes you are going to face huge consequences, what is so hard to understand about this? What do you guys propose the solution to poverty is then?

[Hanuman]

Well they are all facts.
I just want to know what you are contending about it.
A) Well, what if this happens?
B) Wont happen because of facts X.
A) Why? ((Citation pl0x?))
B) Because they are facts.
A) Oh... this was productive >.>

[POS Industries]

A) Well, what if this happens?
B) Wont happen because of facts X.
A) Why? ((Citation pl0x?))
B) Because they are facts.
A) Oh... this was productive >.>
Cool burden of proof fallacy, bro.

Either you both start citing some hard science or knock it the fuck off already.

[Jagos]

Now take my friend. Both parents never finished high school. Their view of school is a negative one. This is not even an uncommon thing. Both US and Canadian education systems fail a lot of kids on a regular basis, and they're still doing it today. They don't know, understand, or live the benefits of that education. How can they pass that on, directly or indirectly, to their kids? They have two kids by the way. What do you think happened?

Something I thought I'd mention. Kids are usually smarter than their parents. It's basically to do with genes. Depending on their environment and how they talk to their offspring, a child is more likely to be more successful than their parents were at the same age.

there is some obvious shit you can do to improve your lifestyle. Be frugal if you don't make a lot of money, invest in yourself (education) and don't incur unnecessary liabilities you can't afford (children).

Our society et al is slow to change. There once was a time when having a big family was for the rich, who would have a farm and needed all of the cowhands. Nowadays, we have a lot of people who collect welfare for children rather than education. Interesting in the fact that there are very few women past the age of 25 that aren't pregnant and/or married and tied to the situation that they're in. Like I was talking about single mothers before, I don't see a lot of fathers stepping up to the plate.

That's just one of the problems (http://ssw.unc.edu/jif/aahmi09/presentations/1A%20Narviar%20Calloway%20slides.pdf).

Unfortunately, the war on poverty is over. It has been for a long time. You can't stop every last person from making irrational decisions. It's part of what makes us human. Government can reach out to give a few handouts, but one thing that is going to happen, the ones that want OUT of their situation will rise up. That special 20% of people, no matter the color of their skin, will get out of a bad situation. We can reduce poverty, we can do what we do best and educate ourselves to live better lives. But in the end, we have to acknowledge that what we want for ourselves won't work for everyone.

[Archbio]

As for low paying jobs being necessary for society to function, what exactly are you referencing?

Maybe I mispoke. Necessary for society to function as it does, rather.

They kind of all are. Now, you can go: well, some of those kind of jobs are relatively well paid, as are most of these, and now those jobs just don't plain count. Well, no, they all count, there's always a value provided. It's not because as little money as possible is going to be paid to the people to get that value that's it's not there.

The thing about a lot of shitty jobs being outsourced raises two questions: doesn't that just displace the question? I mean, these jobs must be done. It's like you're thinking that the plight of the oppressed wage slave populations of poorer countries is worthwhile because they're in this geographic compartment: a country where there's less upward mobility. So: it's not their fault.

It's a cop out. If they didn't do it, someone else would have to locally. Even if the entire population of the United States (for example) was composed of these wondrous, hard working subgeniuses, these new John Galt's (or you can just imagine a nation of yous)... someone would have to do every single job. And in these present systems some of them would get screwed pretty hard. Some of them would be unemployed. I remember all those times I've heard the USSR derided for pretending to 100% employement.

That's not to mention that these poorer countries pretty much all have some degree of upward social mobility. So the spngeous argument about whipping it and bootstraps and just working harder could still be adapted.

The second question this raises it: how in the blue blazes is this whole topic of discussing Funka not too goddamn off-topic? I really should stop feeding it.

[Funka Genocide]

Ok you win, I derailed this with my personal agenda and anger. My apologies.

I think I've said everything I've got to say on the topic about 5 times all ready anyways.

BOOTSTRAPS MOTHAFUCKAS! I'M OUT!