Why Are Allergies/Disorders More Common Nowadays Then When We Were Kids?

[Seil]

So I've got no hard medical data to back this up, but from what I understand, there are more children with allergies and behavioral disorders now then there was when I was growing up. I can remember one person from elementary school in Ontario - Eric - that I invited to my birthday party, and he had down syndrome. Now I'm meeting all these kids with ADHD, can't have nuts, can't have fat, can't get sick...

My mum was doing a Spring theater camp - Spring Break-A-Leg - and there was a young girl who was allergic to fresh fruit and vegetables. I never knew someone like that when I was a kid - so the conversation at dinner tonight was "What's going on?"

There was the idea that many of these children in my time were home schooled, or passed away because of a lack of understanding of their condition, or something to that effect. Another theory was environmental - is there some way that kids are getting sick because of pollution? Is it genetic experimentation - giving that cow steroids to make it grow faster? What's going on?

[Doc ock rokc]

Its a Mixture of Genetic and Environmental.

Your body would ether see something that you have never been exposed to or something down the line from your family was never exposed to and It overreacts.
So keeping children inside with no pets and stuff would sometimes Lead to a kid that has allergies on Pets and Pollen.

Because Kids tend to have a Tendency of being inside more they most likely will develop more allergies. Hell I had a friend that Was exposed to Poison ivy so much he never had a reaction to it. While another friend of mine was born up north and didn't have allergies up their but when he moved down here he has a bad case of them.

The Child could have been allergic to leftover compounds of the Insecticide. that's why Fresh fruit & veggies would have a effect over canned fruit and veggies

[Viridis]

Some thing are just us diagnosing it more because we can recognize it better, which is argued as the reason for the rise in ADHD cases (or so I hear. I remember this but can't find any sources), as an example

[POS Industries]

Better medical science allowing for less early childhood deaths due to allergies and disorders, as well.

[bluestarultor]

They practically hand out ADHD diagnoses with the Sunday paper these days. Or I should say student IDs. In many cases, given an overworked mental health care system (at least in America), teachers will notice a kid fidgeting, label him disruptive (and it's often boys), suggest a diagnosis of ADHD, shunt him off to a child psychiatrist who's too busy to actually check, and the kid ends up scarfing pills for the rest of his career when it's less that there's a real problem with him and more that the drugs shut him up to compensate for a fundamentally backwards educational system that takes all the fun out of learning, when kids are programmed to find learning fun.

On the allergies front, we keep things way too clean. Kids with fuzzy animals around tend not to develop allergies because they're exposed to allergens and build a natural resistance, as mentioned before.

There's also pollution, though, which can end up in kids getting sick. Unfortunately, things like autism aren't really well-understood, so trying to label any one cause is just likely going to trash stuff that probably isn't totally at fault. Really, though, in our efforts to keep stuff clean, we're coating our surfaces in toxins with possible neurological effects, which kids then ingest, which can cause everything from brain damage to kidney failure. We're so terrified of germs, most of which are fairly harmless, that we forget just how nasty our chemicals can be.

[Doc ock rokc]

They practically hand out ADHD diagnoses with the Sunday paper these days. Or I should say student IDs.
Don't get me started on this. Because I used to be the Most bullied person in the school I was recommended to several child psychologists because Obviously the kid getting wailed on every time the teacher has his/her back turned is just asking for it. all of them gave me EVERY diagnosis under the rainbow Depression, ADD, ADHD, Some other less common mental disorders, Possible Brain damage, etc etc (except one who said i was most likely traumatized at school but otherwise fine but my dad didn't like Because of his Price) They are seriously have no clue what they are doing.

[Premmy]

Nostalgia

[BitVyper]

There's also the fact that we're better at diagnosing things than we used to be, so we catch more of them. But yeah, overdiagnosis is an issue too.

[stefan]

There's also the fact that we're better at diagnosing things than we used to be, so we catch more of them. But yeah, overdiagnosis is an issue too.

this plus parents who can't believe that they raised their kids to be asshats, I mean obviously they didn't have that much of an effect by leaving them in front of a TV instead of socializing them properly, and will simply keep going to different doctors until one of them throws a prescription at them instead of telling them why its their fault for fucking up.

[Amake]

I think the rise in Autism related disorders is because we're the next step in evolution, and now that the world is slowly turning into a place where we can live, we do. That's just me of course.

Allergies I blame on antibiotics and overly sterile environments. Frequently dip your kid in raw sewage and it'll be like Achilles. Maybe.

[Premmy]

He'll be untouchable?

[Amake]

By girls and germs alike!

[POS Industries]

I think the rise in Autism related disorders is because we're the next step in evolution, and now that the world is slowly turning into a place where we can live, we do. That's just me of course.
Naw, it's just because we didn't even know it was a standalone disorder until about fifty years ago and its only been very recently that we've been able to diagnose it with some degree of accuracy, rather than "your child is retarded/schizophrenic/possessed by demons."

We've got the same relative percentage of autistics that our species ever had, it's just now we know they're autistic.

[Lyaer]

I have a hard time seeing Autism/Asperger's as the "next step" in human evolution, just because, say what you will about intelligence, and sure we can survive fine enough, but reproduction is kind of the deciding thing in evolution, and us being a social species, I don't see how a psychological constellation that tends a person toward social ineptitude is supposed to put us at a notable advantage on the sex front. I mean, just statistically speaking.

[Meister]

Might reduce overpopulation given a long enough timeframe.

[Telephalsion]

George Carlin said it good:

Besides, what d'ya think you have an immune system for? It's for killing germs! But it needs practice, it needs germs to practice on. So if you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, then when germs do come along, you're not gonna be prepared. And never mind ordinary germs, what are you gonna do when some super virus comes along that turns your vital organs into liquid shit?! I'll tell you what your gonna do ... you're gonna get sick. You're gonna die and your gonna deserve it because you're fucking weak and you got a fuckin' weak immune system!

Let me tell you a true story about immunization ok. When I was a little boy in New York city in the nineteen-forties, we swam in the Hudson river. And it was filled with raw sewage! OK? We swam in raw sewage, you know, to cool off. And at that time the big fear was polio. Thousands of kids died from polio every year. But you know something? In my neighborhood no one ever got polio. No one! EVER! You know why? Cause WE SWAM IN RAW SEWAGE! It strengthened our immune system, the polio never had a prayer. We were tempered in raw shit!

When I think of aspbergers, I sometimes think of mentats.

[Aerozord]

evolution is not a continual straight line. At the very least things like asperger's syndrome are part of our species, and the fact its still part has atleast some place in our continued survival. One of my favorite quotes was "First spear was made by someone with aspergers syndrom fiddling with rocks all day, not the guys talking it up by the campfire".

That being said society is becoming more geared towards atypical brain types. Technology comes more naturally to an autistic and the internet removes the weakness of non-verbal skills. To be more exact evens things out. Its likely that the gene is getting passed on more often then it was. But this is impossible to test as an accurate test for aspergers has only existed for about 15 years. Seriously just try to find a book on it written in the early 90s.

Though numbers are likely exagerated. Seems AS is being tossed out the same as ADD was in the 90s. It takes alot to accurately diagnosis. I had to see three independent specialists before they labeled me as Asperger's Syndrome. Yet they think an elementary school counselor can do it? Unlikely. I am guessing the proportion is shifting, but it will probably be a few centuries before even the 1% mark is hit. Plus you have all those people trying to wipe it from the face of the planet

When I think of aspbergers, I sometimes think of mentats.Savants of that scale are insanely rare but, have you ever seen one!? Its impressive to say the least. One of the gripes about Rain Man was that by their standards his calculations were as slow as dirt. These are people that can rattle off seven digit multiplication problems before you can even enter it into your calculator

[Mirai Gen]

I do have to say that, even without knowing much about pathology or virii, it seems like pretty much what Carlin said was true. Just from personal experience anyway.

[Osterbaum]

Some allergies are also caused by over exposion.

[Amake]

Well, the "next step" part is a simplification. I see Asperger's, at least, as a beneficial mutation. Not necessarily for an individual, but for society as a whole. What we do is specialize. We memorize the train tables of entire nations, at the cost of common knowledge like how to talk to people. 2 000 years ago there was no place for talents like that because every person needed to have the skills to survive on their own, but now we have a network of social security in most civilized countries that let people live even if they lack the basic motor skills to catch a lame squirrel, and so there is room for people like, say Einstein.

I'm supposing nature produces the guys who can't wipe their own ass but instead invent their own fields of mathematics because there are people to wipe their ass for them.

And also I heard some recent discovery about how Aspergers' affect the motivation part of the brain and makes it harder for us to act and make decisions which is kind of a super-consciousness one step further from the people 3 000 years ago who had gods telling them what to do instead of consciously making decisions. Possibly.

[Lyaer]

For the record, I didn't mean to imply that Asperger's/autism are not in any way evolutionarily viable or useful. Just the "next step in human evolution" thing, which makes us sound like x-men or something.

EDIT: Ooh. Preempted. Yeah, I hear ya.

[Toast]

They practically hand out ADHD diagnoses with the Sunday paper these days. Or I should say student IDs. In many cases, given an overworked mental health care system (at least in America), teachers will notice a kid fidgeting, label him disruptive (and it's often boys), suggest a diagnosis of ADHD, shunt him off to a child psychiatrist who's too busy to actually check, and the kid ends up scarfing pills for the rest of his career when it's less that there's a real problem with him and more that the drugs shut him up to compensate for a fundamentally backwards educational system that takes all the fun out of learning, when kids are programmed to find learning fun.

It's not just an overworked mental health care system. Don't forget that ADHD can be diagnosed by pediatricians and family physicians who, for all intents and purposes, shouldn't be allowed to diagnose psychological disorders.

[Eldezar]

There is a lot of mercury in fish. (http://www.mercuryfacts.org/?gclid=CPDyxIC9vaACFQk65Qod4ULrUA) Lakes are contaminated, too. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26096544/)

Many vaccinations have ridiculous amounts of mercury. (http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html)

And I don't think I need a link to tell you that it doesn't take much mercury to mess someone up pretty bad, but I'll give you one anyways. (http://www.ecorazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/depp_madhatter.jpg)*

*I know the hatters generally took a few years before they went mad, but remember this is starting out in children now, even during pregnancy.

[stefan]

Many vaccinations have ridiculous amounts of mercury. (http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html)

Not this shit again. (http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm)

tl;dr: Mercury was only used in concentrations of about 1 in 20,000 parts per million at most and most of the time its not even used any more.

for future reference, a website named something like "natural news" is probably full of bullshit and outdated hippie nonsense.

[Osterbaum]

To get back to ADHD, I have a hard time swallowing that it is somethign that needs to be classified as a psychological "condition". Why? Just because it's less common than what is the mainstream?

[stefan]

To get back to ADHD, I have a hard time swallowing that it is somethign that needs to be classified as a psychological "condition". Why? Just because it's less common than what is the mainstream?

see, here's the thing. ADHD is real, and its classified as a disorder because many people who have it are effected so severely they're incapable of functioning properly in society.

However, the sheer amount of people who DON'T have it, and were diagnosed anyway because they were too hyperactive for someone's taste, taint the public perception of ADHD.

[bluestarultor]

Yes, to back Stefan up, when ADHD first was being diagnosed some nearly 20 years ago, it was this big education movement. People with valid ADHD had just been considered flaky or retarded or disruptive without any real explanation. Once people started realizing there was a reason for it and that it could be treated, it slowly got around and people were able to get help. Then it just got to the point where the symptoms got generalized because everyone had heard of them, in the same way med students end up thinking they're going to die from a million diseases because they have something like the symptoms. So if a kid gets bored or fidgets these days, rather than, you know, fixing the school system or really giving a damn, schools just tell parents to stuff pills in their kids' mouths. And unfortunately, it works to shut them up, but it's often not necessary and can cause actual chemical changes in the brain, aside from the drug costs. So people keep on doing it and messing up the next generation because it's easier than actually doing something for them.

[Seil]

SCIENCE! from the INTERNET! (This is what I got out of the first page of Google.)

Student Health Issues (http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/are_children_sicker_today)
Main Street (http://www.mainstreet.com/slideshow/family/kids/serious-childhood-disease-rise)
Encyclopedia.Com (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1443218.html)
Lifeline (http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/02/974054/lifeline.html)

[Donomni]

I was kinda surprised that the number of kids with Aspergers has been climbing so much.

The cynic and self-loather in me wants to say it's along the lines of "NO MY KID IS NOT A NERD HE HAS A DISORDER GAWD", but we still have no idea how so many are getting it(at least not anything solid atm).

It's strange knowing there's a lot more people like me, but it's a complete pain in the ass to be like that.

[Eldezar]

Not this shit again. (http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm096228.htm)

tl;dr: Mercury was only used in concentrations of about 1 in 20,000 parts per million at most and most of the time its not even used any more.

for future reference, a website named something like "natural news" is probably full of bullshit and outdated hippie nonsense.

Mercury is still one of the most poisonous substances on earth. I also know it is still used in shots because a friend of mine has 3 grandchildren. Only one of them has autism, and only one of them got vaccinations as a baby. Guess which?

[Azisien]

Naw, it's just because we didn't even know it was a standalone disorder until about fifty years ago and its only been very recently that we've been able to diagnose it with some degree of accuracy, rather than "your child is retarded/schizophrenic/possessed by demons."

We've got the same relative percentage of autistics that our species ever had, it's just now we know they're autistic.

But Autism isn't one disorder, in fact it's more properly known as Autism Spectrum Disorder which is an umbrella term for a bag of different conditions, which is all itself part of another umbrella term.

Do you have some sources on this? I've been to two conferences on ASD for my special education training and there's been no hint of any scientific consensus on autism or why it's positively exploded in the last 15 years or so.

EDIT: And the "no consensus" thing extends to the whole mercury thing too.

[Aerozord]

I was kinda surprised that the number of kids with Aspergers has been climbing so much.

The cynic and self-loather in me wants to say it's along the lines of "NO MY KID IS NOT A NERD HE HAS A DISORDER GAWD", but we still have no idea how so many are getting it(at least not anything solid atm).

It's strange knowing there's a lot more people like me, but it's a complete pain in the ass to be like that.There are those that propose that all nerds have aspergers to some degree. Just saying you are more likely to find a nerd with aspergers syndrome then a hyperactive kid with ADD. course thats probably more to do with the fact, well try finding a ten year old thats not hyperactive.

Mercury is still one of the most poisonous substances on earth. I also know it is still used in shots because a friend of mine has 3 grandchildren. Only one of them has autism, and only one of them got vaccinations as a baby. Guess which?

Out of the grand kids old enough to get such a diagnosis, four of us. I am the only one with aspergers syndrome, and we've all had the same vaccinations. Me and my brother, within, at most, a ten month period. What you are doing is seeing a corrilation on an isolated event. Its like if I rolled dice and got seven, you came out shouting that it was seven because I threw it. Or that he was autistic because he was born with green eyes or something. Just because he got vaccinated, and has autism, does not mean the two are related. If that was true most of the civilized world would be autistic

Also unless those grandchildren are in their late 20s, they didn't get vaccinations with any mercury. They haven't done that in decades

On a personal note, I hope you realize how very offensive that accusation is. Saying we are inferior for being different is bad, but claiming we are inferior because the medical community has poisoned us is just down right insulting.

[Marc v4.0]

Mercury is still one of the most poisonous substances on earth. I also know it is still used in shots because a friend of mine has 3 grandchildren. Only one of them has autism, and only one of them got vaccinations as a baby. Guess which?

Ya know, My best friend of 15 years didn't get Vaccinations as a baby. Neither did his sister or any of their cousins (Religious thing).

Out of the 12 of them, 7 have been diagnoised with some form of autistic disorder.

My bullshit-science shows that your bullshit-science is Bullshit.

[Aklyon]

Mercury is still one of the most poisonous substances on earth. I also know it is still used in shots because a friend of mine has 3 grandchildren. Only one of them has autism, and only one of them got vaccinations as a baby. Guess which?
Vaccines have nothing to do with it, this has been proved multiple times. Stop blaming them.

[Hanuman]

http://toblogor.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/scrawny.jpg

You may laugh now, but in 20 years he will earn 250k a year.



We have become a society scared of it's own shadow of humanity, too irresponsible to take BASIC care of ourselves/children, and too righteously fearful of death to accept our own population problem or to accept the death of our gene-line.

Although good things, we have TOO MUCH patriotism, politeness, religiousness, respect of life, ect. ect.. ect...

Point is, Utopia == Balance

[Osterbaum]

Too much respect of life? I really don't understand you. Like at all.

[Premmy]

Noone understands Lev. Go ahead, ask him.

[bluestarultor]

Too much respect of life? I really don't understand you. Like at all.

I have to say I agree with him, but only in very specific instances.

For instance, anacephaly (sp?), the condition of having been born without a brain. I mean this in the literal sense. Literally, anacephalics are born with nothing but a brain stem. Yet despite this, my mother knew of one family through her job in the Milwaukee hospital who had five children, two of them with the condition. The oldest with the condition at the time was nearly twenty years old. Through a combination of bad genes, this couple had a 50% chance of producing an anacephalic baby every time they had one. That didn't stop them from having them or keeping them alive. I could go on and disgust you with how dysfunctional they were, but my point is that I fail to see the point. They were keeping children on life support that literally had no brains, would never grow one, wake up, or do anything but lie there. Maybe it sounds terrible for me to be talking about this, but I think I'm not alone in saying there should be a point where you just let go. In the case of giving birth to a baby that doesn't even have enough brain matter to cry when the doctor whacks it, I'd say to just give it up right there.

[Premmy]

That's cool, how's about you do that with your baby and not go passing judgement on people who don't. Or maybe do go around thinking you're better than others, but admit that's a douchebag thing to do.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Yo guys, I had vaccinations as a child and look what happened to me.

[Premmy]

Oh, Fuck. That's HORRIBLE.

[Marc v4.0]

That's cool, how's about you do that with your baby and not go passing judgement on people who don't. Or maybe do go around thinking you're better than others, but admit that's a douchebag thing to do.

How about you lay off the man and not pretend that you don't go around judging people yourself? Kind of a douchebag thing to do, lecture someone over something we're all guilty of. edit: It really wouldn't bother me so much if, no matter what Blue said and no matter how founded or coherent, it got pushed aside for the sake of giving him a hard time. It's really getting old.


For instance, anacephaly (sp?), the condition of having been born without a brain. I mean this in the literal sense. Literally, anacephalics are born with nothing but a brain stem. Yet despite this, my mother knew of one family through her job in the Milwaukee hospital who had five children, two of them with the condition. The oldest with the condition at the time was nearly twenty years old. Through a combination of bad genes, this couple had a 50% chance of producing an anacephalic baby every time they had one. That didn't stop them from having them or keeping them alive. I could go on and disgust you with how dysfunctional they were, but my point is that I fail to see the point. They were keeping children on life support that literally had no brains, would never grow one, wake up, or do anything but lie there. Maybe it sounds terrible for me to be talking about this, but I think I'm not alone in saying there should be a point where you just let go. In the case of giving birth to a baby that doesn't even have enough brain matter to cry when the doctor whacks it, I'd say to just give it up right there.

In this instance I agree that it's just an extension of a painful experience well past the point of being healthy. Thank God the kids can't feel anything, though it's still a self-inflicted cruelty on the family itself.

[Aerozord]

I dont think thats society as much as human nature. Hard to let a child die, even if you cant call its existance living. Humans are very attatched to their children. We have a very slow development period and even beyond that our social nature still has taking care of offspring.

The actions of a parent for their child can never be considered rational and I'd never say it is societies values that contribute to it. A mother would kill a thousand innocent people to save her sociopathic child.

[Eltargrim]

Mercury is still one of the most poisonous substances on earth. I also know it is still used in shots because a friend of mine has 3 grandchildren. Only one of them has autism, and only one of them got vaccinations as a baby. Guess which?

Required reading (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/europe/jan-june10/lancet_0204.html).

In short: years ago a tenuous (Sample size: 12. That's bullshit no matter which way you lean) study was published linking vaccines and autism. That study, never reproduced despite great effort, has been thoroughly discredited, and the study has been officially pulled from the Lancet.

Stop blaming the wrong shit. There may well be some environmental condition that causes autism. Find it, and get it out of the environment, and stop barking up the wrong tree.

[Nique]

Mercury is in fish.

So you could look at cultures that have a lot of fish in their diet and see what kind of data turns up.

[Osterbaum]

There isn't mercury in fish unless it somehow got there. Mercury is a problem, but there is simply no real proof linking it to autism or any other such condition. It's been linked to several other problems though, and that should be enough to do something about it.

[Nique]

Not naturally, but it tends to get there cause our oceans are polluted as hell. And I should have been more clear; There would be no link between a seafood diet and autism.

[bluestarultor]

That's cool, how's about you do that with your baby and not go passing judgement on people who don't. Or maybe do go around thinking you're better than others, but admit that's a douchebag thing to do.

You know, despite claims to the contrary, I'm not a totally horrible person. On the other hand, allow me to paint you a better picture of this family. Again, they had five kids, with a 50% chance of popping one out with no brain each time. Didn't stop them from popping out kids. Their oldest and third child were both anacephalic, and all their other children, the ones who actually needed the care, lived in their shadow. These parents focused most of their attention on the two vegetables, leaving their normal children to fend for themselves. When the younger vegetable died of heart failure, they re-doubled their attention on the eldest. The normal children may as well have not existed.

I cannot in good conscience excuse that kind of behavior. That is WAY past not letting go. That is irresponsible to the children as a whole, neglectful of the children who needed the care, and simply not healthy.

You can bash me for judging, but if you can find it in yourself to not tell me that situation was fucked up, I'm officially done caring about your opinion.

How about you lay off the man and not pretend that you don't go around judging people yourself? Kind of a douchebag thing to do, lecture someone over something we're all guilty of. edit: It really wouldn't bother me so much if, no matter what Blue said and no matter how founded or coherent, it got pushed aside for the sake of giving him a hard time. It's really getting old.

In this instance I agree that it's just an extension of a painful experience well past the point of being healthy. Thank God the kids can't feel anything, though it's still a self-inflicted cruelty on the family itself.

Thank you, Marc. It's good to see people actually think things through thoroughly before forming an opinion.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Not naturally, but it tends to get there cause our oceans are polluted as hell. And I should have been more clear; There would be no link between a seafood diet and autism.

There has been notable cases of towns gettinng overdoses of Hg from fish due to localised pollutio and they had various health effects but I don't remember autism being one of the symptoms. though that may be my poor memory.
Also Hg is not always harmful, it depends on the oxidation states of the Hg which determines it's ability to bind to the body. There are quite a few mercury compounds which are fairly harmless. And if your study was done in the 70s/early 80s it won't take this into accout as the whole Hg studies of this time are the textbook case of the need to look at speciation.

Supringsly I'm on Blues side here but then I also don't believe anyone should have kids so my thoughts are a bit out there.

[Nique]

though that may be my poor memory

Eat more fish! (Bwahahaha!)

[Aerozord]

if it was simple as fish diet causes autism then island nations would be full of autistics. There is no proof that autism has any geographic connection. Only thing they found when doing such studies is that the places with the highest apparent concentrations are where the most effort is put into diagnosis. Meaning enviroment is most likely not connected to it. In addition cases of heavy metal poisoning, while having some simularities to the drawbacks of autism anyone that knows about it will recognize that it lacks the sociological affects, compulsions, and extreme competency of autistics.

Evidence that its genetic is far more concrete. Almost always, autistic parents have autistic children. I have spoken to quite a few people with aspergers syndrome and only heard of one, that produced a neuro-typical child and that was after atleast two generations of marrying NTs.

There are also some physilogical tendencies. A neuro-typical brain tends to be smaller with a larger speach/social center.

Further evidence is that, I have never heard of any evidence of someone 'developing' autism. Oh sure its been claimed, but proof? Unlikely

[Azisien]

Supringsly I'm on Blues side here but then I also don't believe anyone should have kids so my thoughts are a bit out there.

Naw Smarty your thoughts are fine, the whole continuation of the species thing is so bourgeois.

[Premmy]

Naw Smarty your thoughts are fine, the whole continuation of the species thing is so bourgeois.
Who has the money to have children besides the Fatcats anyway?


ON TO THE SERIOUS!

You know, despite claims to the contrary, I'm not a totally horrible person.
Who said that?

You know, despite claims to the contrary, I'm not a totally horrible person. On the other hand, allow me to paint you a better picture of this family. Again, they had five kids, with a 50% chance of popping one out with no brain each time. Didn't stop them from popping out kids. Their oldest and third child were both anacephalic, and all their other children, the ones who actually needed the care, lived in their shadow. These parents focused most of their attention on the two vegetables, leaving their normal children to fend for themselves. When the younger vegetable died of heart failure, they re-doubled their attention on the eldest. The normal children may as well have not existed.

This would have been nice to Know from jump-street.
As all I saw was, "These people have a good chance of having children with a birth defect, and yet still had kids! for shame"


I cannot in good conscience excuse that kind of behavior. That is WAY past not letting go. That is irresponsible to the children as a whole, neglectful of the children who needed the care, and simply not healthy.

Yup, totally agree that the living children are being put in a horrible situation.

Still don't think people with X chance of having children with birth defects should'nt be allowed to breed or something.


You can bash me for judging, but if you can find it in yourself to not tell me that situation was fucked up, I'm officially done caring about your opinion.


Why would you care about my opinion anyway?

[bluestarultor]

Who said that?

People certainly seem to act like it.

This would have been nice to Know from jump-street.
As all I saw was, "These people have a good chance of having children with a birth defect, and yet still had kids! for shame"

Pretty sure I mentioned that they'd kept a kid with no brain on life support for 20 years. And how I saw that as a waste. Did it really take the rest of their dysfunctionality to raise a flag as to that being a problem?

Yup, totally agree that the living children are being put in a horrible situation.

Still don't think people with X chance of having children with birth defects should'nt be allowed to breed or something.

Never said that, necessarily. I think it's irresponsible, but not unforgivable. I mean, shit, sex is a wonderful thing. I was just raising the point is was terrible to keep a body alive that was never going to be a human being for twenty years without ever letting go or accepting reality.

Why would you care about my opinion anyway?

Human beings are social creatures. :J

[CABAL49]

Yeah, but can't honestly expect someone to let their child die. Emotional attachments to a child is hardly a logical response. Parents are expected to protect their children. Having a child with a birth defect or some disability is shattering to a parent. It doesn't matter how far someone has gone, someone who is family is hard to let go of.

[Premmy]

Did it really take the rest of their dysfunctionality to raise a flag as to that being a problem?

Honestly? considering various people's religious/personal/philosophical/cultural inclinations on the subject? Yes. Not even saying I disagree, just that I'm not saying they're stupid or whatnot because there are multiple factors to be considered.

But when it starts to harm the Children who are "Alive" as it were, or rather, when keeping their children alive, and their obsession with it is harming their other children, it extends beyond personal rights and tilts into neglect. And THAT'S Something I take more issue with than keeping braindead people alive.

Never said that, necessarily. I think it's irresponsible, but not unforgivable. I mean, shit, sex is a wonderful thing.
This is not about sex, this is about having children.
I was just raising the point is was terrible to keep a body alive that was never going to be a human being for twenty years without ever letting go or accepting reality.
Possibly Illogical? yeah. Overemotional? yeah. Terrible? not my place to say. When it comes to mistreating their living children? now that's terrible.

[bluestarultor]

Yeah, but can't honestly expect someone to let their child die. Emotional attachments to a child is hardly a logical response. Parents are expected to protect their children. Having a child with a birth defect or some disability is shattering to a parent. It doesn't matter how far someone has gone, someone who is family is hard to let go of.

I think being born sans a brain counts as slightly more than a birth defect or disability. Kind of like being born without a head might be. Because they nearly are. Apparently, the proper spelling is "anencephailc." I don't suggest doing a Google image search on it. It's not pretty. There's a zero percent survival rate in this short of machinery. It's essentially a percent step up from stillborn.

From Wikipedia (again, disturbing images):
There is no cure or standard treatment for anencephaly and the prognosis for patients is poor. Most anencephalic babies do not survive birth, accounting for 55% of non-aborted cases. If the infant is not stillborn, then he or she will usually die within a few hours or days after birth from cardiorespiratory arrest.

In almost all cases, anencephalic infants are not aggressively resuscitated since there is no chance of the infant ever achieving a conscious existence. Instead, the usual clinical practice is to offer hydration, nutrition and comfort measures and to "let nature take its course". Artificial ventilation, surgery (to fix any co-existing congenital defects), and drug therapy (such as antibiotics) are usually regarded as futile efforts. Clinicians and medical ethicists[who?] may view the provision of nutrition and hydration as medically futile.

In short, these people fucking WORKED to keep these two kids alive. One of them for twenty years. When the life expectancy is usually at most measured in days.

I'm sure it was helped along by their respirators, but still.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Naw Smarty your thoughts are fine, the whole continuation of the species thing is so bourgeois.

Ha ha, how right you are. How sadly, terribly, tragically right you are.