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Magic_Marker
04-24-2010, 12:45 PM
Imagine if the tea party was black (http://ephphatha-poetry.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea-party-was-black-tim-wise.html)


Let?s play a game, shall we? The name of the game is called ?Imagine.? The way it?s played is simple: we?ll envision recent happenings in the news, but then change them up a bit. Instead of envisioning white people as the main actors in the scenes we?ll conjure - the ones who are driving the action - we?ll envision black folks or other people of color instead. The object of the game is to imagine the public reaction to the events or incidents, if the main actors were of color, rather than white. Whoever gains the most insight into the workings of race in America, at the end of the game, wins.

So let?s begin.

Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters ?the black protesters ? spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn?t like were enforced by the government? Would these protester ? these black protesters with guns ? be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that?s what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation?s capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country?s political leaders if the need arose.

Imagine that white members of Congress, while walking to work, were surrounded by thousands of angry black people, one of whom proceeded to spit on one of those congressmen for not voting the way the black demonstrators desired. Would the protesters be seen as merely patriotic Americans voicing their opinions, or as an angry, potentially violent, and even insurrectionary mob? After all, this is what white Tea Party protesters did recently in Washington.

Imagine that a rap artist were to say, in reference to a white president: ?He?s a piece of shit and I told him to suck on my machine gun.? Because that?s what rocker Ted Nugent said recently about President Obama.


[...]

I goes on from there. I had previous thought that racism was likely just a fringe of the tea party. I was safe in thinking these people were crazy for other reasons but 'racist' was in danger of a personal insult for the sake of it. I believe the author makes a great point that once you colour in the skin, things seem very different.

Discuss.

Krylo
04-24-2010, 01:48 PM
That doesn't make the Tea Partiers racist, it makes the instit...

You know what? Fuck it. Prems will come in here soon enough and save me the trouble.

DFM
04-24-2010, 02:00 PM
I don't think anybody actually thinks the Teabaggers are noble patriots standing up for the real Amerika.

Donomni
04-24-2010, 02:40 PM
This more or less is the major problem with our country today.

Most of the complaints about Obama and how he runs things aren't based on any actual fact, but racism or misdirection through racists(My mom isn't racist, but all the bullshit she thinks about Obama most likely came from a racist).

I don't think any of us could've predicted Obama becoming president would be taken so negatively.

Seriously, I'm still kinda surprised.

Pip Boy
04-24-2010, 05:43 PM
I already think that the Tea Partiers are a bunch of stupid violent rednecks. Between the racists, the conspiracy theorists, and overall morons, that associate themselves with the Tea Party (bowel) Movement, it doesn't have all that much credibility left. People are just bitching because the majority doesn't agree with them, therefore the majority must be communist/nazi/socialist/terrorist/*insert meaningless derogatory propaganda here*.

Fifthfiend
04-24-2010, 05:56 PM
The tea partiers are the same small handful of morons that went apeshit the last time a Democrat was president, as always encouraged by a media which loves to pretend their retarded antics are in any way significant or meaningful.

Literally the largest organized protests in history against Bush's fuck-stupid wars rate a passing mention on the nightly news, but maybe a hundred thousand or so well-off, corporate-backed assholes dress up in wigs and Oh! watch the jizz start to fly over the Fox/CNN newsdesks.

Whomper
04-24-2010, 05:59 PM
As a rather common sensical gentleman once told me:

Haters gon' hate.

Ecks
04-24-2010, 06:52 PM
Political revolution was all well and good back in the day. Y'know, when it was NECESSARY. The most these... Tea Whatevers are going to accomplish is to piss off the educated citizens (more or less explaining our reaction). This is just the Red Scare with a different scapegoat. If you don't hate Obama, you're a socialist. If you don't hate his policies, you're a socialist. Socialist, socialist, socialist.

You keep using that word. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouKeepUsingThatWord) I do not think it means what you think it means.

Professor Smarmiarty
04-24-2010, 07:18 PM
Political revolution was all well and good back in the day. Y'know, when it was NECESSARY.

Hang on a minute there... I'm pretty sure the world is going down a craphole pretty fast.

Aerozord
04-24-2010, 08:01 PM
now I think according to first ammendment these people can do any crazy non-violent protest they want. I even encourage pointing out that if need be citizens will rise up and bring down the goverment.

I also think this is very extreme actions for minor issues, but hey, their right as americans to complain and make those complaints known. But what the hell does this have to do with racism. While I stand by what I said about freedom of speach I do not know how your stance would change depending on race. If someone talks about killing the president you'd either feel he should be arrested for threatening the president or allowed to vent his displeasure. Race shouldn't be the deciding factor in your reaction and it honestly suprises me that there are people that think it is even viewed as one

seriously am I missing something because I am trying this thought experiment and imagine public reaction being pretty much the same over all

Osterbaum
04-24-2010, 08:06 PM
What would the Teabaggers say, if a similar protest as theirs was held, but all the participants were black?

bluestarultor
04-24-2010, 08:06 PM
Hang on a minute there... I'm pretty sure the world is going down a craphole pretty fast.

Yes, but the time to revolt against that was during the 8 years of Republican rule when Bush got us into two wars, deregulated everything, and generally fucked up the world by catering to big business and the far right.

The only issue then was that these nutjobs were in power and pretty well managed to scare the shit out of regular folks, so sanity sat down, shut up, and walked on eggshells for almost the entirety of two terms.

Osterbaum
04-24-2010, 08:08 PM
I'm pretty sure the time for a revolution is like right now.

bluestarultor
04-24-2010, 08:23 PM
I'm pretty sure the time for a revolution is like right now.

A revolution right now is the last thing America needs, given the guy who was elected by these wingnuts had 8 years to fuck everything up and it hasn't even been one term of trying to fix it yet. On top of that, there are still issues in Congress where it's leaning more conservative than is helpful at the moment, with conservative factions devoting themselves to doing nothing but fucking up progress and repairs without offering any solutions to the major issues at hand.

The current government is in need of more support at the moment if we're going to get the country back on track.

Professor Smarmiarty
04-24-2010, 08:26 PM
A revolution right now is the last thing America needs, given the guy who was elected by these wingnuts had 8 years to fuck everything up and it hasn't even been one term of trying to fix it yet. On top of that, there are still issues in Congress where it's leaning more conservative than is helpful at the moment, with conservative factions devoting themselves to doing nothing but fucking up progress and repairs without offering any solutions to the major issues at hand.

The current government is in need of more support at the moment if we're going to get the country back on track.

The system is out and out broken, just because the lesser of two evils is in power doesn't mean it's any good now. The problems we face today are the same problems we have faced for the last 50 years- nobody is fixing them by they democrat or republican.

Osterbaum
04-24-2010, 08:32 PM
Not to mention many problems are world wide, and shit needs to be done about all that.

Lyaer
04-24-2010, 10:04 PM
Wait so now that the teabaggers are (in this new hypothetical world) made up of racial and ethnic minorities, their antics are supposed to seem LESS acceptable? Because usually when I imagine a those sorts of minority groups protesting, whether or not they take things a little too far in terms of violence/civility, my tendency is to assume that their underlying concerns are probably legitimate.

Wigmund
04-24-2010, 11:21 PM
I'm pretty sure the time for a revolution is like right now.

Revolution in the US would be a bad thing. As in, "Oh god, Sarah Palin is now President and has control of the nuclear stockpile" level of bad.

Krylo
04-24-2010, 11:23 PM
Revolution in the US would be a bad thing. As in, "Oh god, Sarah Palin is now President and has control of the nuclear stockpile" level of bad.

This.

When you guys say revolution would be good you need to remember that the teabaggers are the ones with the AK-47s.

The anarcho-commie-hippies usually don't stockpile weapons. Hell, most of them don't even own a pistol.

Math. Do it.

DFM
04-24-2010, 11:48 PM
Hang on a minute there... I'm pretty sure the world is going down a craphole pretty fast.

Yo your time machine is ready better get back to 1476.

Premmy
04-24-2010, 11:56 PM
That doesn't make the Tea Partiers racist, it makes the instit...

You know what? Fuck it. Prems will come in here soon enough and save me the trouble.

The fuck I am, ya'll fight this shit out yourself.
Crazy-ass white people

The SSB Intern
04-25-2010, 02:10 AM
seriously am I missing something because I am trying this thought experiment and imagine public reaction being pretty much the same over all

Okay, seriously dude? There's positive thinking and then there's leprechaun escape fantasy. Especially at this:
Would these protester ? these black protesters with guns ? be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans?

Tev
04-25-2010, 10:23 AM
Okay, seriously dude? There's positive thinking and then there's leprechaun escape fantasy. Especially at this:
Would these protesters, these black protesters with guns, be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans?
The intern has a good point. A few hundred Arab-Americans grab their AK-47's and march on Washington......in front of the White House even. What happens? Newsrooms put the spin on Terrorism into overdrive for months, nothing useful gets done, a bunch of bad laws get passed to make everyone feel safe, and we spend another year wondering of those protesters (who were most likely picked up as "Terrorists") will get a civil trial or military tribunal if and when they are let out of a poorly run government prison in another country.

Donomni
04-25-2010, 12:57 PM
Wait so now that the teabaggers are (in this new hypothetical world) made up of racial and ethnic minorities, their antics are supposed to seem LESS acceptable? Because usually when I imagine a those sorts of minority groups protesting, whether or not they take things a little too far in terms of violence/civility, my tendency is to assume that their underlying concerns are probably legitimate.

Not less acceptable to anyone with working grey matter, but many of the people in power, as well as those who are behind them, would cause such a shitstorm that it'd likely end in tragedy rather then the stupid bullshit we have now.

And that's only with the majority of minorities. Muslim-americans in protest would likely end in a disaster I can't even think about right now.

PyrosNine
04-25-2010, 03:42 PM
The fuck I am, ya'll fight this shit out yourself.
Crazy-ass white people

Some of us may be vaguely hispanic. But yeah. Shit be crazy! Probably something along the lines of "crazy ass adjective noun" for any given problem here. If the Non-Tea Party (because it has nothing to do with the Boston Tea Party) 'movement' (because it is not a movement) were any other ethnicity or culture/lifestyle (What would happen if the Tea Partyists were all Goths? Or LGBT? or Internet Geeks?) they would still be considered pretty damn crazy for being all up with guns in the Government's face.

From what I have learned, is that nobody likes paying taxes, but everybody loves getting money from other people paying taxes, and the people who complain the most about taxes and pay lobbyists are the people who have the least tax problems, only bottom line problems.

It may have to do with the fact that income profit is what spurs on the selling of stock, and tax would lower income profit and presumably frighten rich business and their shareholders, but even then I fail to see a significant danger if it applies to business.

Also Rich people should pay lots of taxes, or go live in a city at the bottom of the ocean. Because either it'll be good for deficit or it'll create a drug that lets you shoot lightning from your hands.

Osterbaum
04-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Also Rich people should pay lots of taxes...
You mean progressive taxation. We have that, I just don't think it's progressive enough so to speak.

Ecks
04-25-2010, 06:30 PM
You mean progressive taxation. We have that, I just don't think it's progressive enough so to speak.

That is a massive understatement... I find it highly ironic that people want the government to do all these amazing things that have huge price tags, but when its time to cough up all that dough, your average citizen pretty much says, "BOO! TAXES SUCK, WE DON'T WANT TAXES! YOU SUCK FOR MAKING US PAY TAXES! YOU SUCK FOR RAISING TAXES!" Everybody wants something for nothing.

Krylo
04-25-2010, 10:14 PM
To be fair, it's not your average citizen that should be taxed with paying for all those new things, as that many of them are barely maintaining an equitable standard of living as is.

It's the people pulling down six figures that should be taxed harder to pay for those things. Wouldn't even take much. Hell, just eliminating the loop holes that prevent them from having to pay the taxes they're already supposed to be paying and you'd probably got a lonnnng way toward balancing the books.

Aerozord
04-25-2010, 10:36 PM
I have an even simpler idea, cut the wages of congressmen. You do not need six figure incomes for 20 days of work. These people have a higher standard of living them me even minus that money. Why are we paying people to be in power, they should be satisfied with the amount of power they are granted. More importantly who was the moron that thought it was a good idea to give them the power to decide what their wage is?

Just make it volunteer and boom, hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars to spend.

DFM
04-25-2010, 10:39 PM
Actually krylo, IIRC they already do that. Somewhere along the line, I'm going to say in the 80's because I blame Regan for pretty much anything, rich people suddenly got all smart and realized you can't keep taxing poor people until their wallets bleed because, for one, there just isn't all that much money to be made and two, there's a fuckton of them and if they all get pissed off at the fact you're taking their food money to pay for your villa moat it'll be the French revolution all over again. You also can't tax the rich because, you know, that's you. But what you can do is tax the $100,000 to $200,000 bracket, and you can tax the shit out of them. They're not individually wealthy, so they can't fight you on the lobby level. There's not that many of them so them banding together won't really mean shit compared to you and your Rockefeller buddies saying "Tough." and the rest of the country who make twenty thousand a year are just going to look at them and go "Awww poor widdle baby lost half his money to taxes now he only makes more than twice as much as I do."

Krylo
04-25-2010, 10:41 PM
Actually krylo, IIRC they already do that. Somewhere along the line, I'm going to say in the 80's because I blame Regan for pretty much anything, rich people suddenly got all smart and realized you can't keep taxing poor people until their wallets bleed because, for one, there just isn't all that much money to be made and two, there's a fuckton of them and if they all get pissed off at the fact you're taking their food money to pay for your villa moat it'll be the French revolution all over again. You also can't tax the rich because, you know, that's you. But what you can do is tax the $100,000 to $200,000 bracket, and you can tax the shit out of them. They're not individually wealthy, so they can't fight you on the lobby level. There's not that many of them so them banding together won't really mean shit compared to you and your buddies saying "Tough." and the rest of the country who make twenty thousand a year are just going to look at them and go "Awww poor widdle baby lost half his money to taxes now he only makes more than twice as much as I do."

Yeah, but that's only $50,000 from each of them.

I was talking about people making 500,000+ salaries. You know the ones who are rich enough to be considered part of the club.

I probably should have said six figures and up, 'cause seven and eight figure pay checks are the real dodgers.

Lyaer
04-25-2010, 10:57 PM
Hmm. To play devil's advocate for a second, if anybody is going to be bringing guns to a peaceful(?) protest, it should be the gun nuts. If any group (minority or otherwise) shows up to a rally fully armed, my assumption will be that either a) they want to intimidate people or b) they want to shoot them. But with the second amendment people, you at least have the argument that they are doing it to make a statement that is relevant to their cause. Not that that rules out a) or b).

Out of curiosity, to what extent is it legal to take a gun to a protest? I'm a bit fuzzy on the weapons in public laws.

BattyAsHell
04-25-2010, 11:11 PM
The system is out and out broken, just because the lesser of two evils is in power doesn't mean it's any good now. The problems we face today are the same problems we have faced for the last 50 years- nobody is fixing them by they democrat or republican.

I wouldn't even call it the lesser evil, personally.. Both sides cater to lobbyists and "special interest groups".. Both sides have an agenda where they want to use government muscle to socially engineer society.. (Why not allow same sex marriage and decriminalize weed? And why make it illegal to be offensive against protected groups? That just makes it harder for me to know who to shun!)

Someday, maybe both parties will collapse and we'll get better options out of the ashes...

BattyAsHell
04-25-2010, 11:19 PM
To be fair, it's not your average citizen that should be taxed with paying for all those new things, as that many of them are barely maintaining an equitable standard of living as is.

It's the people pulling down six figures that should be taxed harder to pay for those things. Wouldn't even take much. Hell, just eliminating the loop holes that prevent them from having to pay the taxes they're already supposed to be paying and you'd probably got a lonnnng way toward balancing the books.

Well, historically speaking, when people pulling down six figures or more get taxed too hard, they tend to move to greener pastures..

It's happening in Connecticut. We're losing more businesses because of our tax rates, including driving out one prospective land development project. Prat and Whitney is gone. A friends father is losing his warehouse job because his company is moving out of dodge.. And he's past his 50's. Can't afford to retire, but who'll hire him?

Aerozord
04-25-2010, 11:26 PM
Actually krylo, IIRC they already do that. Somewhere along the line, I'm going to say in the 80's because I blame Regan for pretty much anything, rich people suddenly got all smart and realized you can't keep taxing poor people until their wallets bleed because, for one, there just isn't all that much money to be made and two, there's a fuckton of them and if they all get pissed off at the fact you're taking their food money to pay for your villa moat it'll be the French revolution all over again. You also can't tax the rich because, you know, that's you. But what you can do is tax the $100,000 to $200,000 bracket, and you can tax the shit out of them. They're not individually wealthy, so they can't fight you on the lobby level. There's not that many of them so them banding together won't really mean shit compared to you and your Rockefeller buddies saying "Tough." and the rest of the country who make twenty thousand a year are just going to look at them and go "Awww poor widdle baby lost half his money to taxes now he only makes more than twice as much as I do."

these are often the same people though. Bill Gates actual salary was in that bracket, but in addition to that you get your perks, bonuses, stock options ect thats where you get bulk of your money and how they avoid taxation in the first place. The amount of money billionares make from whats called "income" isn't that high Well I mean its insanely high, just not millions a year high

Premmy
04-25-2010, 11:28 PM
Some of us may be vaguely hispanic. But yeah. Shit be crazy! Probably something along the lines of "crazy ass adjective noun" for any given problem here. If the Non-Tea Party (because it has nothing to do with the Boston Tea Party) 'movement' (because it is not a movement) were any other ethnicity or culture/lifestyle (What would happen if the Tea Partyists were all Goths? Or LGBT? or Internet Geeks?) they would still be considered pretty damn crazy for being all up with guns in the Government's face.

You have both splendidly missed the point of my post, and effectively proved it.

All I'mma say about this,
Black People Loot, white people Find
http://jedmorey.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/katrina_looting_vs_finding.jpg

Wigmund
04-25-2010, 11:29 PM
Someday, maybe both parties will collapse and we'll get better options out of the ashes...

We won't.

What we'll get is either for the current groups to eventually collapse under their own weight and then it will arise again with different names or you'll have a third party come in, dislodge one of the big two and then it become what had just dislodged while the old group fades into memory.

It's the same old same old since the first parties sprung up after Washington left office. Roughly every sixty years we have a party shift. Back in the 40s thru the 50s it was nothing more than the Democrats and Republicans switching which side of the aisle they sat on.

The best one can hope for is that the younger generation taking control of the various parties can swing them in the way people want.

BattyAsHell
04-25-2010, 11:33 PM
What would the Teabaggers say, if a similar protest as theirs was held, but all the participants were black?

The Million Man March?

Not really a protest, but it's a massive congregation of African Americans.

BitVyper
04-25-2010, 11:51 PM
Black People Loot, white people Find

Being fair, the black guy's got what looks like a couple garbage bags full of stuff compared to the white girl who has... a loaf of bread and a soda. I think the difference in terminology actually applies here... or I would if we were talking about something other than basic food items. I have a hard time looking at taking food from a grocery store so that you can survive as looting to begin with.

Viridis
04-25-2010, 11:59 PM
Snopes talks about the loot/find thing a bit (http://www.snopes.com/katrina/photos/looters.asp). I think the fact that the two pictures were captioned by two different people in different agencies is notable. If it was the same person, yes it would be bias. Maybe if the same person had captioned both maybe they both would have been looting or finding.

All conjecture on my part, though.

DFM
04-26-2010, 03:43 AM
Black People Loot, white people Find


Finders have backpacks, looters steal our welfare.

Odjn
04-26-2010, 07:27 AM
Finders have backpacks, looters steal our welfare.

And your heart.

Premmy
04-26-2010, 09:09 AM
Snopes talks about the loot/find thing a bit (http://www.snopes.com/katrina/photos/looters.asp). I think the fact that the two pictures were captioned by two different people in different agencies is notable.
If it was the same person, yes it would be bias. Maybe if the same person had captioned both maybe they both would have been looting or finding.

All conjecture on my part, though.
Care to explain? not really understanding you, here.

Viridis
04-26-2010, 09:24 AM
I'm saying one person made the 'looting' caption. A different person in a different agency (which may have different stylistic standards about this sort of thing) made the 'finding' caption. So it's less obviously bias than if one person had made both. Maybe.

Then I went on to speculate wildly that if the person who made the 'finding' caption had captioned both, they both might read 'finding' and the same for the other way around (if the 'looting' captioner had written both).

Clearer? I'm not saying it's not racist. Just that there other things to consider.

BattyAsHell
04-26-2010, 09:17 PM
Being fair, the black guy's got what looks like a couple garbage bags full of stuff compared to the white girl who has... a loaf of bread and a soda. I think the difference in terminology actually applies here... or I would if we were talking about something other than basic food items. I have a hard time looking at taking food from a grocery store so that you can survive as looting to begin with.

Yeah, and I'm reasonably certain even if a black person took food, it wouldn't be classified at looting, even by the same guy who called the black guy with the garbage bag of stuff a looter.. The only label that really makes sense is "shoplifter"...

Krylo
04-26-2010, 09:26 PM
No, shoplifting is a thing that is done via stealth and subterfuge while a store is operational. It is, essentially, walking in, pocketing something, and walking out without being noticed during normal store hours.

Looting is a thing that is done during riots or natural disasters wherein you utilize only brute force to grab as much as you can while everyone is distracted.

You wouldn't call someone taking things from a store during a hurricane/flooding a shoplifter for the same reason you wouldn't call someone breaking into a store with guns a shoplifter.

EDIT: ALSO it doesn't matter whether those particular two pictures/their captions were racially motivated. The fact is that people of color ARE seen differently by the public at large than white people when partaking of the same things. That was the entire point of the article.

Anyone who can rub two brain cells together and has even the slightest sense of realism knows what would happen if the tea baggers were mostly black, hispanic, or arab (asians might get the same treatment as whites in this respect). Here's a hint: Fox News wouldn't be calling them heroes. The media would be turning it into a terrorist attack on the seat of our government, there'd be calls across the country for their arrest as 'dangerous malcontents'. They'd be characterized as another WACO group, and most likely be handled in a very similar way.

White people can get away with a bunch of shit other races can't.

HOWEVER, unlike the first post seemed to signify, this doesn't make the tea baggers themselves racist (though most of them probably are). They have no control over how the media, old white men, and the public at large view their actions. It's the institution itself that is racist. Our entire social paradigm.

Calling the Tea Party racists over this is missing the point and ignoring the larger problem.


THERE PREM, HAPPY NOW!? Makin' me say it.

Premmy
04-27-2010, 12:31 AM
White people can get away with a bunch of shit other races can't.


It bears mention that waaaaaaaay back During the civil rights Movement's most heated moments, when Black people said

"FINE! you're gonna keep us seperate and not allow us any freedoms or equality and want us to live forever in the ghetto? WE'LL GO AHEAD AND DO THAT SHIT! FUCK IT! WE'LL DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT! we'll build our OWN communities, just LEAVE US ALONE! DON'T FUCK WITH US AT ALL AND WE'LL MAKE OUR OWN WAY! cause turning the other cheek just gets us spanked twice!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Power)

They were pretty much immediately demonized as dangerous, eeeeevil black people and have been depicted as such by outside society ever since.

DFM
04-27-2010, 01:00 AM
I always thought it was weird how like the Black Panthers were/are always the go to black extremist movement but when you actually read their stuff, especially considering the context it was written under, I dunno they always seemed pretty reasonable.

Professor Smarmiarty
04-27-2010, 03:06 AM
No you see they were both communist AND they were black. It's like being Hitler AND the devil.

Osterbaum
04-27-2010, 03:27 AM
Communist, black and (radical) activists at that. Oh my.