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Nique
05-03-2010, 08:36 PM
I don't get it.

Maybe it's just the geek in me but I don't get what's appealing about seeing two grown men beat each other to a pulp. Same goes for "professional" wrestleing (although less so as it's more 'soap opera in underroos' than wrestleing) or UFC fighting.

I can appreciate to some degree the appeal of seeing different fighting styles or skills but if anything embodies this it's going to lean more towards specific martial arts competition or something. I mean, I'd rather watch fencing to be perfectly honest.


Of course I really enjoy Fighting-themed video games, so do I have some sort of unreasonable double-standard or just appreciating that in video games no one actually has to get hurt to provide me with entertainment?

BitVyper
05-03-2010, 08:51 PM
Didn't we just do this?

Bells
05-03-2010, 09:01 PM
Kinda, i had a thread going about Ultimate Fighting, cause i thought it was a pointless sport (actually a non-sport) and how most "Fight untill unable" sports were pointless and futile in this day and age, but yet, highly glamorized.

bluestarultor
05-03-2010, 09:05 PM
I can take or leave pro wrestling, since that boils down to stunts, but UFC quite frankly gives me a deep disgust for our society. Throw some lions in there already. Or not, because they'd probably be stupid enough to do it if they thought it would boost their ratings.

Edit: Basically, I hate seeing innocent animals getting hurt. It's not fair to them and their contracts are usually terrible.

Hanuman
05-03-2010, 09:18 PM
I don't understand how you cannot understand, don't you play games?
HP, STR, DEX, CON, ATK RATING, DMG, LvlCap, AC

Whats not to get? Most games out today are basically Kill, but they dress it up with fancy names and context.

I mean, every 10 year old is walking around beating pokemon up, every 13-17 year old is playing xbox live or whatever shooting people and screaming noob and teabagging, ect.

BloodyMage
05-03-2010, 09:48 PM
I like (liked, I keep up with it very much any more) wrestling, because it's like a drama but with more fights. I don't even care that it's scripted, you still have to be in pretty good shape to do some of the better stuff that they do in a ring, so it's still pretty impressive.

I'm less of a fan of boxing but I still get the appeal. Maybe I'm just a little sick and twisted though in that I like watching two people pummel each other more my entertainment.

Bells
05-03-2010, 10:06 PM
Did you noticed that it's Ok to make a Man bleed on TV with your fists and profit form it, but if they use weapons it's cruel?

DarkDrgon
05-03-2010, 10:14 PM
like watching the UFC stuff out there. I think i did this rant before, but I like watching sports/events that I also compete in. its nice to see what the true professionals act like, so i have some technique to follow. Watching Richter helped me refine my goalie technique, watching painters helps me get better, reading books helps me write, and watching fights lets me know what styles I need to watch out for.

people who just watch to see people get beat up bothers me though.

Azisien
05-03-2010, 10:14 PM
I mean, every 10 year old is walking around beating pokemon up, every 13-17 year old is playing xbox live or whatever shooting people and screaming noob and teabagging, ect.

Whose kidding who? I'm 23 and I'm still beating pokemon up. :D

Boxing? Meh, whatever. I guess it's better than wars.

Hanuman
05-03-2010, 10:23 PM
In my campaigns you get more xp for diffusing a fight than you do from killing everyone.

I mean, I'm a full time martial artist right now and I spar with dozens of different styles and backgrounds all the time, MMA is built to be entertaining as a bloodsport, real fighting isn't fit for TV.

Sparring is more a personal experience, feeling you left a weakness rather than seeing it exploited.

Nique
05-03-2010, 10:25 PM
Didn't we just do this?


I guess we did and I wasn't paying attention? Seemed like a fresh topic.

I am confronted by it a little becuase there are a lot of fights on Pay-Per View recently and I have a hard time understanding how it seems to be such a big thing rather than more of a niche, which is what i previously thought it was.

POS Industries
05-03-2010, 10:28 PM
Hey guys, I don't understand why other people like things that I don't like. What the hell is up with that?

Bells
05-03-2010, 10:28 PM
There has been a "Boom" of it recently. It started as a fad, but there is a ton of really smart people behind it doing business, so they are trying to sediment this as a current sport for the long run.

Just watch, soon enough we'll see Sports clothing line and Shaving Cream ads with Ultimate Fighters instead of Tiger Woods

Odjn
05-03-2010, 10:30 PM
Hey guys, I don't understand why other people like things that I don't like. What the hell is up with that?

You're a prick and when they think of those things they think of you and it just ruins it forever.

Hanuman
05-03-2010, 10:31 PM
I guess we did and I wasn't paying attention? Seemed like a fresh topic.

I am confronted by it a little becuase there are a lot of fights on Pay-Per View recently and I have a hard time understanding how it seems to be such a big thing rather than more of a niche, which is what i previously thought it was.
Lots of ads, lots of hype, pretty much as theatrically presented as WWE or whatever, though contextually different.
A huge reason it's so popular is the jiu jitsu in it, very very respected in the MA community... I should know, got my jaw turned to mashed potatoes armoring my neck to a several year jiu jitsu guy last month.

POS Industries
05-03-2010, 10:38 PM
You're a prick and when they think of those things they think of you and it just ruins it forever.
Welp.

That was certainly a post.

Odjn
05-03-2010, 10:48 PM
Welp.

That was certainly a post.

Aw, I didn't MEAN it POS! You're like, number 7 of people I actually like!

Hug?

POS Industries
05-03-2010, 11:02 PM
Hug?
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/dawwww.png

DarkDrgon
05-03-2010, 11:02 PM
There has been a "Boom" of it recently. It started as a fad, but there is a ton of really smart people behind it doing business, so they are trying to sediment this as a current sport for the long run.

Just watch, soon enough we'll see Sports clothing line and Shaving Cream ads with Ultimate Fighters instead of Tiger Woods

Tapout would like to have a word with you
http://www.playwell.co.uk/images/tp5.jpg

Nique
05-03-2010, 11:56 PM
Hey guys, I don't understand why other people like things that I don't like. What the hell is up with that?

Not to rain on your sarcasm parade but, I mean, what? I can't ask a question?

Bells
05-04-2010, 12:01 AM
Tapout would like to have a word with you
http://www.playwell.co.uk/images/tp5.jpg

oh, C'MON!!

BitVyper
05-04-2010, 12:13 AM
Not to rain on your sarcasm parade but, I mean, what? I can't ask a question?

You haven't exactly given the impression that you genuinely care why people like boxing.

Krylo
05-04-2010, 12:19 AM
Because people enjoy violence, and people enjoy competition.

This is not hard to figure out here, guys. People have enjoyed watching violence ever since forever, and people have enjoyed getting behind 'teams' or 'players' in competitions they are watching for just as long.

The ancient greeks included naked wrestling in the original olympic games. An island just south of greece whose name I can't quite remember, used to enjoy the sport of pissing off bulls and jumping over them. Rome had the famous Coliseum. England had jousting and other contests of knightly skill, along with duels to the death. Duels to the death actually stuck around until very recently. Cock fights, dog fighting.

Hell, action movies and violent video games.

It all leads back to the fact that human beings enjoy watching things beat the shit out of each other, AND we enjoy competition, whether directly or through proxy.

Boxing and UFC combines these two things.

I'm surprised anyone can actually not understand this.

BitVyper
05-04-2010, 12:21 AM
An island just south of greece whose name I can't quite remember

Minoa. They were pretty interesting people too.

But real men fight bulls with karate. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas_Oyama)

Nique
05-04-2010, 01:10 AM
People have enjoyed watching violence ever since forever, and people have enjoyed getting behind 'teams' or 'players' in competitions they are watching for just as long.


This is where I don't get it though - We have, I feel, superior forms of entertainment even in the realm of sporting events now, and boxing seems not only highly violent but maybe... archaic? Is it a skill comparable to karate or by asking that am I missing the point that people just want to see them some violence?


You haven't exactly given the impression that you genuinely care why people like boxing.


I don't know about that. I felt like awknowledging the appeal of other forms of one-on-one combat was a reach for common ground. And, I mean, are boxing fans really that thin-skinned?

"Hey! I don't genuinely care about your boxing sport!"

"*Whimpers*"

Krylo
05-04-2010, 01:17 AM
Is it a skill comparable to karate or by asking that am I missing the point that people just want to see them some violence?

Yes.

I don't particularly like boxing, either, but yeah, it's a skill.

There's a lot of techniques as far as blocking, finding openings in your opponent's defense, learning to absorb blows, etc.

Just like any form of combat it's more skill than physical ability.

POS Industries
05-04-2010, 01:43 AM
And, I mean, are boxing fans really that thin-skinned?

"Hey! I don't genuinely care about your boxing sport!"

"*Whimpers*"
1) He said you haven't "given the impression that you genuinely care WHY people like boxing," not that you don't genuinely care about boxing, because obviously you don't and that's fine. Everybody has lots of stuff they don't like, and for a majority of people boxing is totally among them.

2) I absolutely adore your insinuation that anyone pointing out #1 is just a boxing fan that got his feelings hurt. That's pretty cool, bro.

3) Only two bullet points is lame so I'm making a third just cuz.

Nique
05-04-2010, 02:14 AM
1) But I do care, hence the thread. Albeit it is an extremely casual discussion. (Can we seriously bring back the discussion forum please?!). I'm not understanding where asking why people enjoy something means I need a lecture on how everyone has different tastes?

2)You seem to be severely misunderstanding me. I'll assume it's not intentional but I will suggest that you lighten up a little. I addressed Bitvyper's concern(?) and offered up a humorous reprieve that meant exactly the opposite of what you took it to mean.

3)Let me ask a more pointed question and maybe I will come across as less of an idiot; I understand that boxing is essentially competitive violence, and for that reason it is popular, but, if you are a boxing fan, why do you find it interesting? IS it purely the violence? Is it the dedication of the fighters? Is it the skills they use, the way they train? The spectacle? Are you just a hardcore Rocky fan?

DarkDrgon
05-04-2010, 06:47 AM
3)Let me ask a more pointed question and maybe I will come across as less of an idiot; I understand that boxing is essentially competitive violence, and for that reason it is popular, but, if you are a boxing fan, why do you find it interesting? IS it purely the violence? Is it the dedication of the fighters? Is it the skills they use, the way they train? The spectacle? Are you just a hardcore Rocky fan?

in order, No, yes, yes, yes, only the first 3

Professor Smarmiarty
05-04-2010, 07:28 AM
only the first 3

Bro the only good Rocky film is Rocky 4. Mayybbbbbbbbbbeeeeeee the first one.

Amake
05-04-2010, 09:35 AM
Interesting tidbit: Many more people are killed in boxing than before they started using those gloves.

Also, heavyweight boxing fascinates me. From everything I've seen heavyweights start hugging within three seconds from getting within punching distance of each other, and then it takes 10-30 seconds to separate them so they can fight. At least 90% of the fights are spent on the fighters holding each other in their arms. It's cute.

Other, more mobile fights in lower weight classes and different schools are great to satisfy one's urges to kill and win, though. I like that we can channel that stuff in mutually agreed on ritualistic violence. Better than going out and shooting animals, for instance. Videogames and such are surely even better, but I guess not everyone can summon the suspension of disbelief to derive their satisfaction from them.

Corel
05-04-2010, 10:29 AM
Also, heavyweight boxing fascinates me. From everything I've seen heavyweights start hugging within three seconds from getting within punching distance of each other, and then it takes 10-30 seconds to separate them so they can fight. At least 90% of the fights are spent on the fighters holding each other in their arms. It's cute.


Not to be a smart allack/to anyone interested, this is a tactic usually employed when one guy (or both) has been gassed and doesn't want the other guy to score any points (or knock him down). The time grappling can allow time for the boxer to recover. In later rounds gassing becomes much more frequent so hugging can commence more frequently.

I had assumed Boxing's popularity had majorly decreased in the past 20 or so years and has only recently started to get off it's feet again. With the rise of MMA in certain places in the world (Which only has become main stream in some countries in the past few years) Boxing might have to find ways to pull more viewers/betters.

Professor Smarmiarty
05-04-2010, 10:58 AM
It's not helped that the current heavweight division which is the moneymaker in boxing is considered the weakest its been in a long long time/

Hanuman
05-04-2010, 03:12 PM
Interesting tidbit: Many more people are killed in boxing than before they started using those gloves. What are gloves? More mass, more area dispersal and slightly slower transfer of energy, which means the force isn't concentrated and it's too slow to be absorbed into the skin destructively, which means if you get hit in the head your brain is going to smash into your inner skull, and since it's not as intense a feeling you can stay upright for longer.

Bare fights you'll get lots and lots of injuries in the bone and cartilage instead of just bypassing them.

bluestarultor
05-04-2010, 03:28 PM
What are gloves? More mass, more area dispersal and slightly slower transfer of energy, which means the force isn't concentrated and it's too slow to be absorbed into the skin destructively, which means if you get hit in the head your brain is going to smash into your inner skull, and since it's not as intense a feeling you can stay upright for longer.

Bare fights you'll get lots and lots of injuries in the bone and cartilage instead of just bypassing them.

Just to clarify this, bare-knuckle boxing prevented a lot of the strikes that are now responsible for causing brain damage because you'd either break your hand or it just didn't connect the same way.

So while bare-knuckle was bloodier, it was ultimately less fatal.

Professor Smarmiarty
05-04-2010, 03:30 PM
Also dudes weren't pussies in those days.

DFM
05-04-2010, 03:37 PM
I don't understand why people like football it's just running around with a ball. Why do you like football? Is it the violence? Is it the skill of the athletes? Is it their dedication? Do you watch "Any Given Sunday" every week? There are much more interesting sports than football for you to be watching.

I don't think a football is a very good Christmas present.

bluestarultor
05-04-2010, 03:58 PM
I don't understand why people like football it's just running around with a ball. Why do you like football? Is it the violence? Is it the skill of the athletes? Is it their dedication? Do you watch "Any Given Sunday" every week? There are much more interesting sports than football for you to be watching.

I don't think a football is a very good Christmas present.

One could argue neither is a broken bone, and probably a bit more easily, which is why some of us find cage fighting so baffling.

Nique
05-04-2010, 04:15 PM
I don't understand why people like football it's just running around with a ball. Why do you like football? Is it the violence? Is it the skill of the athletes? Is it their dedication? Do you watch "Any Given Sunday" every week? There are much more interesting sports than football for you to be watching.

I don't think a football is a very good Christmas present.

lol trollin'.

DFM
05-04-2010, 04:16 PM
So playing sports is baffling because you might get hurt. Or, for boxing, because you will get hurt.

It's almost like an athlete thinks having fun/competing is worth enduring physical pain.


What madness drives them to such folly.

Edit:

lol trollin'.

Even though I'm not, this thread would pretty much deserve it.

Nique
05-04-2010, 04:27 PM
Do you want to elborate in a more legitimate conversation or continue to (yes, you are) troll?

EDIT: Also this -

this thread would pretty much deserve it.

Probably in the top ten of the absolutly stupid things that I have ever seen on the forums.

Meister
05-04-2010, 04:30 PM
Nique stop calling people trolls.

DFM
05-04-2010, 04:32 PM
Do you want to elborate in a more legitimate conversation or continue to (yes, you are) troll?

I think a better course of action would be for you to explain exactly what it is you're hoping to get out of this thread.

"I don't like X. Tell me why people like X because I don't see how they can."

I mean, if you think this is a legitimate question then there's really nothing more to talk about here.

Edit:

Probably in the top ten of absolute stupidest things I have ever seen on the forums.

lol

krogothwolf
05-04-2010, 04:37 PM
So playing sports is baffling because you might get hurt. Or, for boxing, because you will get hurt.

It's almost like an athlete thinks having fun/competing is worth enduring physical pain.


What madness drives them to such folly.


Don't forget the adrenaline high you get from it! Man, Adrenaline high's are the best thing ever! Combine that with totally destroying someone with a clean open ice hit and man, the feelin you get is awesome! I miss playing hockey :( Damn knee's getting wrecked from a knee on knee hit :(

Professor Smarmiarty
05-04-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm with DFM here, people like sports like they like any other things- I'm not sure what kind of answer you are hoping to get. The comparision to football is valid- why do people like football?
To answer your question would be to answer it about all sports really, and pretty much any activity humans enjoy.

Nique
05-04-2010, 05:58 PM
DFM, I notice you tend to give people a lot of shit without anything near a reasonable level of justification. Why you insist on trying to make this an unpleasent place to be is beyond me, but it's getting pretty tired.

Nique stop calling people trolls.

I'm baffled that this is the issue here but ok. I'll reign it in.

"I don't like X. Tell me why people like X because I don't see how they can."

I mean, if you think this is a legitimate question then there's really nothing more to talk about here.



I know you think there's a point in there but aside from being needlessly combative there really isn't.

I don't understand the appeal of Boxing. I offered why I find it unapealing, why I can see the appeal of comparable sports, and even stated that I may have a double standard, but basically conveyed the idea that I am curious about why other people find it so interesting.

How is this not a legitimate inquiry? You've never wondered why lot's of people enjoy something that you don't see a lot of value in? What I'm curious about is not the fact that people can enjoy something that I don't, but what they specifically enjoy about it.

The snarky treatise on how people have different interests and that I am stupid for not realizing this is more than insulting becuase you are intentionally misunderstanding me as, I guess, an excuse to be sarcastic. So that's irritating.

lol

Trolling is, pretty much universally, considered stupid. So yeah.

I'm with DFM here, people like sports like they like any other things- I'm not sure what kind of answer you are hoping to get.

Jesus H.

Why do we talk about anything? I had a topic I wanted to have an enjoyable dscussion about becuase I was curious about it and wanted to kill some time.

Magus
05-04-2010, 06:11 PM
Actually, yes, the high point of any UFC viewing for me is when one guy has been knocked senseless to the ground and the other guy is beating the ever loving shit out of his head, so I think your point is proven but I don't care? Or something like that. I forget, I think it was Bluestarultor who said something about "let's throw some lions in there", which I'm assuming is a comparison between the UFC and the ancient gladiatorial games. What this overlooks is that these people are willingly entering UFC matches, unlike the slaves used for the spectacles of Rome, so while the visceral enjoyment may be as "mindless", it's not as immoral (or something like that).

Not sure why boxing is still popular in the wake of UFC, as someone else mentioned there is are way too many opportunities for one partner to tangle up the fight in an attempt to get a lot of resting time, whereas in cagefighting that would leave you open to holds which would cause you to give up rather than have your arm or leg broken, there aren't as many awesome kicks to the head in boxing (in fact it is illegal and would make you lose a point if not be disqualified, talk about lame), and there's no grappling aspect. Boxing outside the heavyweight division rarely seems to end in a knockout or even a technical knockout anymore, either.

Nique
05-04-2010, 06:46 PM
Actually, yes, the high point of any UFC viewing for me is when one guy has been knocked senseless to the ground and the other guy is beating the ever loving shit out of his head, so I think your point is proven but I don't care?

My only point is to understand or at least be aware of perspectives other than my own (specifically aware, not just aware that their are other perspectives). I was in no way attempting to deliver some kind of diatribe on how deplorable the violence in this sport is or whatever.

Not sure why boxing is still popular in the wake of UFC,

Maybe it's a nostalgia thing? There does seem to be a paticular male-oriented culture around boxing? I hear a lot of boxing fans compalin about UFC fighters, ostensibly becuase it seems more violent to them, when in reality they probably just have less context for the violence.

krogothwolf
05-04-2010, 06:48 PM
Why do we talk about anything? I had a topic I wanted to have an enjoyable dscussion about becuase I was curious about it and wanted to kill some time.

Well, if that was what you were going for, why did you start it off as "I don't get it". Nor did you even ask for anyone to really explain why they enjoy the sport. You started off this whole thing acting like boxing wasn't something that should appeal to anyone because it's about beating each other up. You made it seem like it was weird for someone to like it. It may not have been your intent but to me, you came off as someone looking down on something they deem inferior to them. Plus, if you don't get why people like something like this, then it's going to be very hard to explain to you why. There are thrills involved in seeing two people pound on each other. It gets the blood flowing and gets the adrenaline pumping. It's someone that's very difficult to explain because it's all based on your feelings and emotions. You'll never really get why people enjoy it Nique because you dislike the idea of 2 people hurting each other, not that it's a bad thing that you don't like that, but because you don't it'll be hard to get it to you why people who enjoy that, enjoy it.

Magus, the reason Boxing is still popular is because people enjoy to see that type of fighting and how boxing is set up and everything. The Prize Fighter is still something more associated with Boxing then UFC and that is what draws in the boxing crowds. This stable's prize fighter versus that ones. This promoter's against that one. I love UFC's method of being one promoter, but the boxing method draws people to it as well.

Bells
05-04-2010, 07:10 PM
Holy crap, you guys are reeeeeeeeally nitpicking the simple "Pitching a thought" of the first post in this thread.

Really, we don't have to elaborate an essay to open every single thread about every single subject one might want to discuss... sheesh! Really, sometimes a "Hey, Boxing. What's up with that?" just might be enough to pitch in a decent conversation... which this thread actually has, at least for the larger portion of the first 3 pages...

Y'know, that's actually one of the things i miss from the old "Discussion" sub forum, because there you are actually supposed to open a thread with at least some deeper thought / facts / relevant links to propose a discussion, while on general anyone could simply toss their line in the water and chat a bit...

C'mon people... if that's how it works, then, let's just end every topic every time on the first page with "People deslike/like/do what they deslike/like/do because they deslike/like/do what they deslike/like/do" and be done with it.

ON TOPIC:

I don't know how does that "grade" in the discussion itself, but i can see why Boxing gets to be an Olympic sport just like Wrestling and a few Martial arts, but not Ultimate Fighting.

That's just.. the distinction my brain makes of it. To me, it's very redundant and boring. Bloody, yeah, and a lot of people enjoy that... but i don't see that much "Art" in doing it. Sure, these guys train like hell. And sometimes they do special training aimed at their adversary... but most of the time, if i watch a fight between two guys i don't know and the audio is off, i'm not going to be able to tell what "Martial Art Skills" they are using beyond "Grabbing" and "Elbow/Knee hits" with the ocassional generic Hold.

bluestarultor
05-04-2010, 07:32 PM
Actually, yes, the high point of any UFC viewing for me is when one guy has been knocked senseless to the ground and the other guy is beating the ever loving shit out of his head, so I think your point is proven but I don't care? Or something like that. I forget, I think it was Bluestarultor who said something about "let's throw some lions in there", which I'm assuming is a comparison between the UFC and the ancient gladiatorial games. What this overlooks is that these people are willingly entering UFC matches, unlike the slaves used for the spectacles of Rome, so while the visceral enjoyment may be as "mindless", it's not as immoral (or something like that).

My point was actually less about gladiatorial battles dealing with slavery and more that it was similarly bloody and with the way they whore stuff out for ratings, if they thought they could get away with it, they probably would. Which is why I tried to clarify it with my edit mentioning that it was a bad idea because the lions, unlike the fighters, wouldn't have a choice in the matter and ended with a final quip about animals having poor contracts.

I know the fighters know what they're getting into. I just tried to dress it up with implications of animal abuse as a tongue-in-cheek denial of expectation concerning the bloodbath. Not that I was expecting people to pick up on my humor (i.e. the things that weren't said), but I was kind of banking on someone asking about it and that just didn't happen.

Tev
05-04-2010, 07:40 PM
And sometimes they do special training aimed at their adversary... but most of the time, if i watch a fight between two guys i don't know and the audio is off, i'm not going to be able to tell what "Martial Art Skills" they are using beyond "Grabbing" and "Elbow/Knee hits" with the ocassional generic Hold.

Yeah, UFC does nothing for me. If I want to see some good mixed martial arts fighting, I'll watch some choreographed anime like Grappler Baki or Air Master. You know, shit that has that kind of flair that people just can't do right in real life.

Krylo
05-04-2010, 08:10 PM
You could try watching illegal street fights.

The problem with UFC isn't that it's 'real life', it's that they have rules to keep the fighters as safe as possible while still allowing 'full contact' martial arts combat.

The result is that many of the blows that would make a striking combat style more useful than grappling are basically illegal. Which means that everyone goes for grapples because they're the best way to put someone into submission without, say, breaking their jaw (which they try to keep you from doing to each other in UFC bouts).

This is also probably why some people like boxing more than UFC. Sure the heavyweighters do a lot of hugging (which is stupid and boring I don't care if it's a strategy), but there's still more actual goddamn punching and moving around and not squirming on the ground more homoerotically than most gay porn than in UFC.

Hanuman
05-04-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm baffled
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5741/y8jvp17twoayf88xfk5eagi.gif



You could try watching illegal street fights.

The problem with UFC isn't that it's 'real life', it's that they have rules to keep the fighters as safe as possible while still allowing 'full contact' martial arts combat.

The result is that many of the blows that would make a striking combat style more useful than grappling are basically illegal. Which means that everyone goes for grapples because they're the best way to put someone into submission without, say, breaking their jaw (which they try to keep you from doing to each other in UFC bouts).

This is also probably why some people like boxing more than UFC. Sure the heavyweighters do a lot of hugging (which is stupid and boring I don't care if it's a strategy), but there's still more actual goddamn punching and moving around and not squirming on the ground more homoerotically than most gay porn than in UFC.
Please elaborate: How in real fighting are striking combat styles more effective than ground fighting?

Krylo
05-04-2010, 08:46 PM
I didn't say striking is MORE effective than ground fighting in real combat. Ground fighting is still very effective in real combat, however in UFC you can't say... kick someone in the bojangles, or strike the side of someone's knee (25 pounds of force if I recall to tear the tendons and cripple the leg), or break someone's leg, etc. etc.

A full force kick from a properly trained individual can, for instance, shatter a blocking arm. Such a kick would be ruled illegal in the UFC.

So with the best power blows made unusable in the UFC because they don't want their fighters ending up in the hospital after every bout, that leaves ONLY ground fighting as being FULLY effective.

It'd be like if we made a fighting tournament where you were allowed to either use weapons or your bare hands, but then illegalized every weapon that wasn't comical huge foam gloves it wouldn't mean that bare handed fighting was more effective than weapons. Not a perfect comparison as that ground fighting is probably still somewhat more effective than striking in general, but the rules of the UFC widens the gap so much that there's no point going into it thinking you're going to use any kind of striking style.

Edit: I guess I did say more useful than, when I meant 'more useful than in certain situations' or just 'more useful compared to what it is in UFC currently'. I apologize for the confusion.

Hanuman
05-04-2010, 09:14 PM
Technically they aren't SUPPOSED to be using these techniques in the UFC since their martial art is brand named and very specific in the rules, but I've seen them borrowing from internal martial arts as a way of cheating... I've seen Spider take down that Irish fellow with a single limp-looking straight jab to the chin and dodging all the rest in flow instead of just armoring up.

Yes, I agree with the right amount of strength an opponent who armors a joint incorrectly can be broken by a strike, but any martial artist worth his salt will dodge or dissolve a joint before it is broken, and in fact internal martial arts teach you to do the opposite, slight shifts in stance and muscle tension can effectively armor a blocking spot, shattering the person's foot or hand.
Protip-- Shifting your stance, blocking or evading a hit, these things are both FASTER than any hit that would have enough force to do the sort of damage you are talking about.

Striking martial arts are extremely effective for taking out an opponents weakpoints and as such they are a psychological punishing effect... (like a knight guarding a pawn), double-taking an opponent, or following up on a pre-disruption move and since the natural response for a strike is to armor, if you've already set them up and go to hit them you can manipulate their muscle tension to make them fall over or topple backwards, and then it's on the ground.

Weak points that are banned in all sport fighting would be balls, but balls are actually not that easy to exploit, the eyes are much more effective, ears are good too, same with hair.

The other side of the coin is that a proportionate number of ground fighting moves are disabled... they get them in multiple holds per match and half of those holds are designed to easily pick at a person as they are simply defenseless, and its MUCH easier to break someone's fingers and arms in a ground fight than their legs and arms in a upright position.

ALSO, these are people who have trained endlessly and specifically to escape jiu jitsu holds, you may think "wow, they are just slipping right out of those holds... jesus they are slow... they should run more so they can become blurs like DBZ".

You need to be absolutely ripped and toned in all the right ways to escape a hold from someone trained in jiu jitsu.. holding someone is WAY WAYYY more efficient than escaping while being held... and I can tell you first hand from sparring that you do not want to get on the ground with someone who has more training in that field than you.

DarkDrgon
05-04-2010, 09:18 PM
and I can tell you first hand from sparring that you do not want to get on the ground with someone who has more training in that field than you.

my ground game of choice is wrestling, and I agree with the above 100%

Hanuman
05-04-2010, 09:51 PM
The other side of the grapple coin is that there are stances LIKE zenkutsu dachi from karate which accelerate the natural ability to balance very effectively, grounding someone who is in an anti-ground stance is very very tricky, so as much praise as I give ground fighting, it's not to be relied on until you have already taken it there.

Krylo
05-04-2010, 09:54 PM
I'm not sure where any of that actually goes against what I said?

Grappling is more effective than striking by far when you put in rules designed against causing irrevocable harm. Don't see how that's a hard concept or how all those words actually counter it at all.

krogothwolf
05-04-2010, 10:30 PM
I think they are ignoring how you mentioned a no rules situation and are now arguing styles which have rules. They are ground lovers so they feel they need to defend the style!

Hanuman
05-04-2010, 10:35 PM
Stike Pros- Damaging, disrupting, punishing, psychological effect.
Cons- Trading precision and geometry for strength, a strike requires range, you give them whatever limb you throw out, you disrupt your posture, auto-armor most of your muscle mass, and it is as slow as anything else you could be doing-- and ultimately less effective.

I pretty much classify fighting in 4 different ways:
(1) Situation Gone Awry
-For some reason you either failed hard at your diplomacy check or a situation beyond your control, dissolve the fight as quickly and easily as possible, do not antagonize.
(2) Agro
-Someone is showing malicious intent in a way that cannot be dissolved, proceed to checkmate him with the least assets lost as possible.
(3) Threat
-Weapon or otherwise accelerated danger level, proceed to disarm and checkmate without preservation
(4) ITK
-Intent to kill-- Parkour, call assistance, reroll diplomacy, use terrain and full barrage of lengthy tactics to disengage for as long as possible.
???
Profit

My philosophy in fighting is to never harm when it isn't needed, which makes sparring more effective since you can spar for hours on end going all out with no fear of injuring a friend.

We know this about fights:
MOST of them are without weapons, if they are with weapons like a gun then hand to hand combat is near-useless to train with anyway, aikido is the best way to disarm someone and it's not strike base as much as it's grounding and standing grapple.

MOST of fights DO end up on the ground, regardless of style.

Fights are either diffused, or checkmated, a strike is a good way to alpha male the other person down, but a trained aggressor is usually acting that way because they ALSO have an alpha male mentality, so a pussyhearted bully can be diffused with soft combat as much as he can with aggressive posturing, with the same lack of actual damage to him, though you have to be noncombative to a jackass or else he gets riled up-- SO:
If A = wimpbully and B = meatbully then A is solved through soft and hard and B is only accelerated by hard yet diffused by soft, if B ISNT diffused by soft then you have to checkmate, which is easier through positioning than trying to take all his pieces (chess analogy), let him kamakazi his own pieces, posture defensively and softly, be the python not the bull because you know who would win in a fight.

Advantage: Soft-- even assuming soft and hard styles are par with each other at least soft has the psychological advantage.

Fifthfiend
05-04-2010, 10:47 PM
Boxing is a great sport if you like sports where the goal is to see how quickly you can develop Parkinson's disease.

I didn't say striking is MORE effective than ground fighting in real combat. Ground fighting is still very effective in real combat, however in UFC you can't say... kick someone in the bojangles, or strike the side of someone's knee (25 pounds of force if I recall to tear the tendons and cripple the leg), or break someone's leg, etc. etc.

A full force kick from a properly trained individual can, for instance, shatter a blocking arm. Such a kick would be ruled illegal in the UFC.

?

I thought the only things that were illegal in UFC were like eye gouging and fishhooking and kicking people when they were on the ground. And like most of that's even pretty new-ish.

krogothwolf
05-04-2010, 10:50 PM
Boxing is a great sport if you like sports where the goal is to see how quickly you can develop Parkinson's disease.



?

I thought the only things that were illegal in UFC were like eye gouging and fishhooking and kicking people when they were on the ground. And like most of that's even pretty new-ish.

You're not allowed to kick people in the junk either!

DarkDrgon
05-04-2010, 10:56 PM
no knees to the head either, no direct hits with the elbow, no grabbing the fence

Fifthfiend
05-04-2010, 10:57 PM
Seriously boxing is guys wearing huge padded gloves so they don't bruise their knuckles or subject the tenderhearted audience to the sight of icky blood as they repeatedly bludgeon each other in the head and then 40 years later everyone involved has a permanent case of the shakes and needs nursing assistance to take a shit, it it pretty much the worst, dumbest sport, if you don't understand why people like it that's because you don't understand why people like pointless, awful things.

Magus
05-05-2010, 08:40 PM
People like pointless, AWESOME things too, Fifth. And watching people beat the shit out of each other for our amusement is awesome. It is bloody and awful but still viscerally awesome, like a car crash (NASCAR) or someone getting checked into the glass (Hockey), but the viscerally pleasing part is all the time instead of only once in a while.

I'm assuming that doing the actual fighting is also viscerally pleasing, or why would the fighters do it? Maybe it's a bit like smoking, it's great at first, but then later you get lung cancer...except I don't think smoking is great at first. Hmm, there is probably a better comparison to be made...okay, having sex with prostitutes is great at first, okay, but later you get syphilis.

But I also like poker and billiards, and, god help me, golf, so I mean, if they cancelled UFC I could probably live without it...and none of those are even contact sports, what's up with that.

bluestarultor
05-05-2010, 08:45 PM
golf

*tearfully takes him behind the barn to end his misery*

Magus
05-05-2010, 08:50 PM
It's delightfully non-violent! And non-exciting! It's perfect for our violent entertainment-free utopia! People can watch it while eating unsweetened applesauce and weak tea after their six-hour shift at the paper-pushing factory!

stabbity death
05-05-2010, 09:01 PM
My father has always been a big boxing fan and has tried, forever, to get me into it.

I probably could, too. The fights are sometimes very exciting, and I understand the process well enough to follow along. The huge problem I have with it is that I strongly dislike any sporting contest which is likely to end in an arbitrary manner. The idea that the eventual outcome may be decided by a panel of judges (or ringside doctor or referee) makes the outcome less than legitimate to me, and I simply can't enjoy it knowing such an outcome is likely.

bluestarultor
05-05-2010, 09:05 PM
It's delightfully non-violent! And non-exciting! It's perfect for our violent entertainment-free utopia! People can watch it while eating unsweetened applesauce and weak tea after their six-hour shift at the paper-pushing factory!

*sighs and points to the whores behind the barn*

Entertainment, my good man, entertainment.

krogothwolf
05-05-2010, 09:06 PM
It's delightfully non-violent! And non-exciting! It's perfect for our violent entertainment-free utopia! People can watch it while eating unsweetened applesauce and weak tea after their six-hour shift at the paper-pushing factory!

Man I always thought golf would be great if they allowed the other players to tackle each other during putting or to run across and try to knock the golf ball away before it went into the hole during a putt.

Fifthfiend
05-05-2010, 10:56 PM
Look I'm not saying there aren't people who like boxing I'm just saying there are people who like Transformers 2 and Tim Buckley comics and I don't feel any obligation to understand those people soooooooo

Fifthfiend
05-05-2010, 11:00 PM
People like pointless, AWESOME things too, Fifth. And watching people beat the shit out of each other for our amusement is awesome. It is bloody and awful but still viscerally awesome, like a car crash (NASCAR) or someone getting checked into the glass (Hockey), but the viscerally pleasing part is all the time instead of only once in a while.

Boxing takes the spectacle of two men beating each other to death and removes all the visceral thrill of violence and bloodletting and replaces it with people spending two decades developing brain damage. It's like NASCAR if the car crash took twenty years and then the driver gets out of the car and shakes and slurs his speech until you're so fucking depressed you can barely breathe. It's "violence" for people who can't actually stomach violence so they make people inflict long-term permanent mental debilitation on each other to spare themselves the sight of a dude breaking his knuckles on a guy's forehead.

Magus
05-05-2010, 11:18 PM
Well, when you put it that way I agree with you: boxers should wear steel gauntlets or fight bare knuckle. Actually, one hand should have a steel gauntlet and the other should be bare and part of the strategy is blocking with the correct hand at the right time or your bare hand is crushed by your opponent's gauntlet. Man, that would be an awesome sport, I'm going to propose we move to that one. Everything goes but blows to the head or below the belt, okay, and the object is to shatter your opponent's torso bones until the submit.. Man, this is going to be a great sport and I see lots of room for strategy and skill in it, too.

My father has always been a big boxing fan and has tried, forever, to get me into it.

I probably could, too. The fights are sometimes very exciting, and I understand the process well enough to follow along. The huge problem I have with it is that I strongly dislike any sporting contest which is likely to end in an arbitrary manner. The idea that the eventual outcome may be decided by a panel of judges (or ringside doctor or referee) makes the outcome less than legitimate to me, and I simply can't enjoy it knowing such an outcome is likely.

Oddly enough, I love arbitrary outcomes. It's odd. It's part of the reason I watch golf, half the time there is absolutely no reason for the ball to almost go in and then somehow skitter out but it happens sometimes, or why does the ball break for all the other players on a particular hole but then somebody will hit it apparently the same and it won't break at all. Poker is the same thing, there's so much to chance it's extremely enjoyable. It's just very enjoyable to me for some reason.

Fifthfiend
05-05-2010, 11:28 PM
Well, when you put it that way I agree with you: boxers should wear steel gauntlets or fight bare knuckle.

Check it out, I'm so good at arguing I can convince people of things that have literally nothing whatsoever to do with what I said http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt148/fifthfiend/emoticons/smug.gif

bluestarultor
05-05-2010, 11:31 PM
Steel gauntlets might hurt their hands, though. I suggest knuckledusters and bracers as an alternative.

Magus
05-05-2010, 11:38 PM
Check it out, I'm so good at arguing I can convince people of things that have literally nothing whatsoever to do with what I said http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt148/fifthfiend/emoticons/smug.gif

The steel gauntlets should have sharp ridges on the knuckles? Okay, Fifth, that does sound pretty awesome, let's throw that in there.

Steel gauntlets might hurt their hands, though. I suggest knuckledusters and bracers as an alternative.

These boxers need to quit being such pussies, jeez. You ask a UFC fighter to fight in a back alley steel gauntlet brawl and all they ask you is, "Stainless steel okay?"

bluestarultor
05-05-2010, 11:41 PM
These boxers need to quit being such pussies, jeez. You ask a UFC fighter to fight in a back alley steel gauntlet brawl and all they ask you is, "Stainless steel okay?"

Oh, fine, but no pussy smooth gauntlets or simple edges. Knuckledusters are better than that. If we're going to go gauntlets, we need to go with spikes. Modest ones, of course. No need to perforate organs, but some nice quarter-inchers should be good.

Magus
05-05-2010, 11:48 PM
Yeah, Cestuses all the way (Cesti?). People can wear helmets since head blows aren't even allowed just in case of accidents. The only question now is what to call our new sport.

bluestarultor
05-06-2010, 12:16 AM
Yeah, Cestuses all the way (Cesti?). People can wear helmets since head blows aren't even allowed just in case of accidents. The only question now is what to call our new sport.

Neo-Greco Boxing. Or maybe Revival-Style Boxing. Early forms were reputed to use spikes, so express that in a way that sounds good and you're set.

Hanuman
05-06-2010, 01:18 AM
I'm developing fire gauntlets (gauntlets that can be engulfed in flames for extended periods of time) and we are going to spar with them on, we've already tried using leather gloves but those overheat in around 25-30sec even in frigid weather.

Kyanbu The Legend
05-06-2010, 01:47 AM
I'm developing fire gauntlets (gauntlets that can be engulfed in flames for extended periods of time) and we are going to spar with them on, we've already tried using leather gloves but those overheat in around 25-30sec even in frigid weather.

Lev, will you ever stop being awesome?

This is one of the coolest ideas I've heard all week and I really want to see this in action.

Fifthfiend
05-06-2010, 01:51 AM
The steel gauntlets should have sharp ridges on the knuckles? Okay, Fifth, that does sound pretty awesome, let's throw that in there.

These boxers need to quit being such pussies, jeez. You ask a UFC fighter to fight in a back alley steel gauntlet brawl and all they ask you is, "Stainless steel okay?"

Yeah, Cestuses all the way (Cesti?). People can wear helmets since head blows aren't even allowed just in case of accidents. The only question now is what to call our new sport.

Three or four more rounds of reflexively lashing out out like this and you'll finally be ready to admit that you're a fan of terrible things with no justification. http://www.nuklearforums.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Professor Smarmiarty
05-06-2010, 03:43 AM
Boxing takes the spectacle of two men beating each other to death and removes all the visceral thrill of violence and bloodletting and replaces it with people spending two decades developing brain damage. It's like NASCAR if the car crash took twenty years and then the driver gets out of the car and shakes and slurs his speech until you're so fucking depressed you can barely breathe. It's "violence" for people who can't actually stomach violence so they make people inflict long-term permanent mental debilitation on each other to spare themselves the sight of a dude breaking his knuckles on a guy's forehead.

It's pretty much the same thing that happened in every sphere of life, with the replacement of outright violence and oppressions with more subtle forms. Cause we civilised.

Hanuman
05-06-2010, 03:51 AM
Lev, will you ever stop being awesome?

This is one of the coolest ideas I've heard all week and I really want to see this in action.

First I need to video the swordchucks, there's a good chance it'll happen this sunday as I made some connections last week for the camera and have some strings I can pull now.

http://www.labsafety.com/images/xl/Aluminized-Gloves-LSS-_i_LB23488Z.jpg

This is about what the gloves will look like, the main use will be making ridiculous firetools usable as may I remind you, swordchucks burn your hands just by using them at the moment.

Magus
05-06-2010, 07:16 PM
Three or four more rounds of reflexively lashing out out like this and you'll finally be ready to admit that you're a fan of terrible things with no justification. http://www.nuklearforums.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Yes, the fire gauntlets idea is pretty awesome.

The fire gauntlets should also have the broken glass from real Muay Thai kickboxing, that would be sweet.

If you do try it out, Lev, film and put it on the internet so we can watch, please.

Amake
05-07-2010, 01:38 AM
And when you do, please include some moves from Devil May Cry.

Archbio
05-07-2010, 02:04 AM
The devil may cry because he doesn't have fire gauntlets.

He just has crummy old fire hands.

Kyanbu The Legend
05-07-2010, 02:15 AM
First I need to video the swordchucks, there's a good chance it'll happen this sunday as I made some connections last week for the camera and have some strings I can pull now.

http://www.labsafety.com/images/xl/Aluminized-Gloves-LSS-_i_LB23488Z.jpg

This is about what the gloves will look like, the main use will be making ridiculous firetools usable as may I remind you, swordchucks burn your hands just by using them at the moment.

Cool.

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished Swordchucks.

Hanuman
05-08-2010, 01:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg73rOFgsHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjE4bC4Clcg

Kyanbu The Legend
05-08-2010, 01:59 AM
That made my night awesome. Fancy foot work is nothing compared to a punch to the face.

Darth SS
05-08-2010, 07:02 PM
That made my night awesome. Fancy foot work is nothing compared to a punch to the face.

It's usually the other way around. At least, in my experience it's 90% the other way around. Coincidentally the same reason why no one takes martial arts seriously, instead thinking that good old street toughness will win the day. What an incredible amount of people forget or just don't do when they learn martial arts is they don't ask two important questions of their teachers: What's the cultural context this was developed in? Tactically, why am I doing this technique this way?

So that video, capoeira vs some dude is a shining example of this:

Capoeira was developped by Brazilian slaves. They had to hide their training as a form of dance, and they had to be able to fight with their hands shackled. Hence the dancing, it hides what he's trying to do. That guy got beat down because he 1) Drills too much, 2) Fights only his system too much. If he asked the two questions above, how you apply technique radically changes. I bet if you asked him "why were you doing it that way" he'd say "Because that's what's supposed to happen." Some martial arts (Muay Thai, Sambo, Savate) leave their cultural context very well, while others just get murdered outside of that cultural context because they've been adapted and refined to be so specific.

BitVyper
05-08-2010, 08:07 PM
Coincidentally the same reason why no one takes martial arts seriously, instead thinking that good old street toughness will win the day.

The problem is largely that everyone who thinks they have good old street toughness doesn't actually know how to throw a punch that's worth a damn. Or target, for that matter.

Hanuman
05-08-2010, 08:21 PM
The main issue is that humans are adaptive creatures, and teach how to adapt.

At least, they teach their theorycraft on how THEY adapted to THEIR surroundings.
Personally I'm not that interested in capoeira as I already hide 90% of my martial art (being an internal martial artist-- not that capoeira actually fools anyone) and I'm not interested in being flashy.
What happened there, was one guy gave a huge lead up, the other guy just used insight to picture how it was going to play out, put a large amount of linear force in, and the other guy smacked his own head against his fist hard enough to KO him.
It's not special, it's not especially skillful, it's just simplifying the issue down to basic principle-- most of martial arts are how you think about them and how you react. Also, moving into another player's square invokes an attack of opportunity.

But seriously, belts are for people who's pants don't fit.

bluestarultor
05-08-2010, 08:54 PM
Yeah, as a guy who went through years of Tae Kwon Do, I have to say that most of it isn't practical for normal use, but they never tell you that. 90% of it really is only good situationally and there was no instruction that I ever got on when to actually use it. Granted, I figured it out on my own, but then I also began pulling from pretty much everything I saw, so comparing what I do to Tae Kwon Do would be like trying to compare milk to a muffin. Pretty sure there's some milk in there, but I'm also pretty sure some of it was lost in the process and there's bits of all sorts of other stuff along with it.

In some ways, as much as the martial arts community I was introduced to showed a disdain towards it, mixed martial arts is the most effective road for actually defending yourself.

Kyanbu The Legend
05-08-2010, 08:54 PM
The main issue is that humans are adaptive creatures, and teach how to adapt.

At least, they teach their theorycraft on how THEY adapted to THEIR surroundings.
Personally I'm not that interested in capoeira as I already hide 90% of my martial art (being an internal martial artist-- not that capoeira actually fools anyone) and I'm not interested in being flashy.
What happened there, was one guy gave a huge lead up, the other guy just used insight to picture how it was going to play out, put a large amount of linear force in, and the other guy smacked his own head against his fist hard enough to KO him.
It's not special, it's not especially skillful, it's just simplifying the issue down to basic principle-- most of martial arts are how you think about them and how you react. Also, moving into another player's square invokes an attack of opportunity.


But seriously, belts are for people who's pants don't fit.
I don't know if I should feel good or bad about that.

Hanuman
05-08-2010, 10:08 PM
mixed martial arts is the most effective road for actually defending yourselfI disagree as the art has been formulated specifically for intercepting and disabling an opponent, not strictly defensive.

I would agree however that compared to other styles it's probably the best for defending a larger range, like if someone tries to steal your bike 10feet away or your ladyfriend's purse.

I don't know if I should feel good or bad about that.
If you've let getting some sort of physical trophy or some reward get in the way of your motivation and clarity of actually learning your martial art, then you might want to feel bad. Rewarding people like that just gives people a reason to concentrate less.

WOO A BLACK BELT. I AM DONE!

Kyanbu The Legend
05-09-2010, 12:08 AM
If you've let getting some sort of physical trophy or some reward get in the way of your motivation and clarity of actually learning your martial art, then you might want to feel bad. Rewarding people like that just gives people a reason to concentrate less.

WOO A BLACK BELT. I AM DONE!

Well I guess I should feel good then seeing as I never let the fact that the only belt I earned in a month or two back in 8th grade was yellow belt stop me from studying it every now and then. Which was the highest the course went though the instructor offered if we wanted to continue at his dojo (for a fee of course) with the rest of his students.

BitVyper
05-09-2010, 12:09 AM
I'd say parkour is more effective for self defense. Unless you happen to be Wong Fei Hung, it will save you in more situations than fighting ability will. Of course, it's not like you can't have grounding in both, and in situations where your goal is something beyond "don't get shanked," running away ability becomes less useful.

Such as:

I would agree however that compared to other styles it's probably the best for defending a larger range, like if someone tries to steal your bike 10feet away or your ladyfriend's purse.

WOO A BLACK BELT. I AM DONE!

As for this, I'm of the opinion that belts exist to sell belt exams.

Kyanbu The Legend
05-09-2010, 12:14 AM
I'd say parkour is more effective for self defense. Unless you happen to be Wong Fei Hung, it will save you in more situations than fighting ability will. Of course, it's not like you can't have grounding in both, and in situations where your goal is something beyond "don't get shanked," running away ability becomes less useful.

Such as:





As for this, I'm of the opinion that belts exist to sell belt exams.

I use to think they where just a way of showing rank or level of skill in Martial Arts.

BitVyper
05-09-2010, 12:32 AM
I use to think they where just a way of showing rank or level of skill in Martial Arts.

It depends on the school, but I wouldn't take them as an indicator of skill for the most part. My non-snarky feeling about belt colours is that there's so many in a lot of schools that they become worthless as individual markers of achievement, which defeats the whole purpose.

Edit: Not that a person shouldn't take any pride as they get better, just that I think there's more to be proud of with an achievement when it's something you have to really work for.

Darth SS
05-09-2010, 02:30 AM
mixed martial arts is the most effective road for actually defending yourself.

If you don't want to get hurt, Run Fu is the most effective way to do it.

If running isn't an option then it don't really matter what system you practice as long as you know 1) how to apply the techniques in a non-sporting context and 2) you've actually trained in the mindset that you are trying to hurt/maim/kill the person you're hitting. MMA is really useful if going to ground is a totally viable option, the eyes/throat/crotch are not valid targets, and small joint manipulations aren't "allowed." Of course at this point you're likely noticing that those conditions are ridiculous. And, by the way, MMA as it's commonly taught is a sport hybrid of Muay Thai, Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo. In my experience, going to ground is the worst possible thing that you can ever do in a real life situation. You don't know who they are, you don't know what they know and you don't know if they have any weapons on them. Why would you put yourself in a situation where you can't see their hands? Furthermore, those areas are the fastest ways to either "defuse" someone or at the very least decrease their ability to cause you harm.

My Krav Maga instructor works on the side as a bouncer at the bar with the highest knife crime rate in Canada. I occasionally work at a bar in Saskatoon when they need extra bodies on their teams for busy night. We're both students, so we'll both take the convenient jobs when we can get them, hence the bouncing. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen someone in a TapouT shirt think that he knows how to roll take a swing at him only to be completely amazed when he ducks off to the the side and full on slaps them in the throat. The slap isn't a manly attack, right? And the throat isn't fair, right?

One of my friends is from Montreal and has practiced Savate since he was 6. One night when we were working I remember some guy telling him to back off and let him and his buds enjoy their drinks, otherwise he was going to give him "real trouble." As I'm walking over I see this guy take a swing at my buddy who calmly ranges out and does (what I call) a piston to this guy's hip. Seeing him on one leg, this guy tries to "shoot" at my buddy and get him to ground, thinking he's GSP or something. As a response he just flips his hips and unloads a high kick right into this guy's eyes and drops him like a ton of bricks. Commence screaming, tackling by multiple bouncers and the usual removal. Boom, 230+ MMA-wannabe put on the ground by a 160 (maybe) Frenchman.

I've seen guys break out Aikido, Krav Maga, Savate, even a Wing Chun guy at varying degrees of effectiveness. There's no real "best" martial art. Whoever is the best trained is probably the guy who's going to "win" is the reality of it. Note: Best does not mean most. Mindset is an important part of this. If you're trying to "win" you're going to get wrecked by the guy who is trying to survive.

So...practice running first. Then find what works for you.

Hanuman
05-09-2010, 02:52 AM
Now Krav Maga is something I can really respect, GREAT example of a martial art who's design was based on a contemporary and very valid scenario/environment.

Also, fyi Wing Chun is just bastardized tai chi meant for rapid absorption as it would take 10 times longer to learn properly and you probably would spend 10 times longer looking for a good tai chi teacher than a good wing chun teacher ;]

Professor Smarmiarty
05-09-2010, 04:14 AM
The most effective form of defendign yourself is being Bruce Lee.

Corel
05-09-2010, 08:42 AM
The most effective form of defendign yourself is being Bruce Lee.

Six feet of solid earth between you and your attacker is a sure deterrent to even the most tenacious of people.

Professor Smarmiarty
05-09-2010, 09:10 AM
I've heard good reviews of giving yourselves rabies.

BitVyper
05-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Having six german shepherds with you at all times works pretty well too. I've never known a man surrounded by loyal german shepherds to lose a fight.

Edit: In fact, maybe I'll make that my superhero gimmick - I'll be like Squirrel Girl, but with big dogs instead. I'll call myself Justice Hound. My motto will be "I've got a bone to pick with crime."

bluestarultor
05-09-2010, 07:10 PM
truth

I agree with all of this. On the other hand, part of what I was referring to was the type of place that skips out on the "honor" bits of things. I mean, there's definitely a time and place for that, but in my experience, the things that traditional martial arts get right are:

Telling you not to be stupid and fight unnecessarily and
Telling you to use only necessary force

while the things they get wrong include:

Failing to take into account that at some point, you're going to have to fight dirty and
Failing to take into account that a real opponent probably WILL fight dirty.


While the things they get right are admirable, the things they get wrong are dangerous. That's why I ended up getting disillusioned with traditional instruction, because I had the misfortune of learning the latter two the hard way through literally no fault of my own, and when I asked my teacher how I might prevent that particular kind of beatdown from happening again, he couldn't, or wouldn't, give me an answer and I ended up never talking about it to anyone else because I was scared shitless of it happening again until I was actually pulled into the office for clocking someone a year later.

When it finally came out, it shocked the hell out of the police liaison officer and my mom ended up threatening legal action. By that point, at roughly ten years old, I'd already basically thrown honor out the window.

BitVyper
05-09-2010, 07:21 PM
1. Failing to take into account that at some point, you're going to have to fight dirty and
2. Failing to take into account that a real opponent probably WILL fight dirty.


I can't speak for everything, but I know from experience that Shinkage ryu kenjutsu deals specifically with number 2. Especially when it comes to tanto and fan stuff. Granted, a lot of that isn't really applicable anymore, but it is there. What little I know of some softer styles seems to address it as well, probably because there's more opportunity for nastier things when you're grappling.

Another thing to consider is that for stuff that was actually being used, students were probably picking up that sort of thing from experience since they weren't necessarily spending twenty years training or fighting in the ring without ever taking it into battle. Probably part of the reason it's not built into a lot of systems is because in times of war, you might be learning it for real before you'd even built a strong foundation, and in times of peace it's easier to have the idea that everyone will fight by the book.

That's just speculation though.

bluestarultor
05-09-2010, 08:49 PM
I can't speak for everything, but I know from experience that Shinkage ryu kenjutsu deals specifically with number 2. Especially when it comes to tanto and fan stuff. Granted, a lot of that isn't really applicable anymore, but it is there. What little I know of some softer styles seems to address it as well, probably because there's more opportunity for nastier things when you're grappling.

Another thing to consider is that for stuff that was actually being used, students were probably picking up that sort of thing from experience since they weren't necessarily spending twenty years training or fighting in the ring without ever taking it into battle. Probably part of the reason it's not built into a lot of systems is because in times of war, you might be learning it for real before you'd even built a strong foundation, and in times of peace it's easier to have the idea that everyone will fight by the book.

That's just speculation though.

Well, for reference, Tae Kwon Do is pretty heavily strike-based, and it's damn good at it. A well-placed kick can literally launch your opponent. That's not to say there's no grappling whatsoever, in fact, there are plenty of throws, too, but there aren't really very many holds that I'm aware of, and the ones I am are generally joint locks that you're supposed to turn offensive. Basically, holding isn't the focus here.

...I had a point in there somewhere. :ohdear:

At any rate, the only experience I have is with that in my own formal training and what I picked up through observation, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My experience would not surprise me if it were plain just shitty given the studio I went to for much of it.

BitVyper
05-09-2010, 09:44 PM
When I said "that sort of thing," I meant dirty fighting, not grappling.

bluestarultor
05-09-2010, 09:56 PM
When I said "that sort of thing," I meant dirty fighting, not grappling.

Yeah, I'm honestly not quite sure what I was thinking there... :sweatdrop

Premmy
05-09-2010, 09:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjE4bC4Clcg
Oh look, it's that clip from Never Back Down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Back_Down)that always comes up when people want to talk shit about Capoeira!

Oh what, you don't remember that movie that really wanted to be the Karate Kid for MMA? oh, well that's probably because it sucked so hard (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/never_back_down/)

So that video, capoeira vs some dude is a shining example of this:

Capoeira was developped by Brazilian slaves. They had to hide their training as a form of dance, and they had to be able to fight with their hands shackled. Hence the dancing, it hides what he's trying to do. That guy got beat down because he 1) Drills too much, 2) Fights only his system too much.

That's.... not true at all, At best, it's "Capoeira Cliff notes for dummies"

1: Capoeira originated as an amalgamation of various different African martial arts styles and philosophies . Unlike America, which prevented slaves from doing anything relating to their culture for fear of them doing things in secret, Brazil let each seperate tribe and nation keep their culture in the hope that it would create gaps between them and prevent them from cooperating to revolt. The idea being that if they kept to their old culture, they would remember the rivalries that their tribes had, and always be at each other's throat.

( America instead kept the light-skinned slaves in the house doing nice jobs to breed color-based discontent)

The slaves responded by saying "Lol, chattell slavery, you're more enemy than them" and formed the old form of capoeira, Which is, based on what we know, since people weren't researching their slaves like that back then, was less of a ritual with a full heritage and customs, and more of a fight breaking out in the yard and someone just happened to have a drum nearby and started playing it 'cause everybody had drums, or a combat sport that had drums, cause again, Drums all over the place.

Cut ahead to these slaves learning how to fight, and, when they weren't breaking out of captivity, KILLING each other in stupid fights amonst each other, wasting a good slave( who was so good because of all the capoeira training making him tough enough to cut sugarcane all day). This convinced the Brazilian government to outlaw Capoeira and similar artforms( not sure, but I think this may have been the reason behind Candomble's renaming of the Orishas after Catholic Saints)

People didn't practice Capoeira "Secretly out in the open but all crafty-like by pretending it was a dance" in these times, but instead just did it hidden in corners and backalleys. This was probably the period in which the birimbau came into play, being a more mobile instrument than an atabaque drum. The current toque used to signify "Okay, mestre says we're done playing now, come back to the mouth of the Circle" is actually the "OH FUCK! COPS! SCATTTER!" rythm.

During the post-abolition periods, Capoeira was still illegal, and practiced largely by criminals in the slums. It was still practiced secretly by said criminals. Without any REAL training methodologies, it was pretty simplistic and "dirty" keeping in with the old "Master's gonna come in and rape my wife, no rules or honor here" Malicia mindset carried over from the old slavery days.

Mestre Bimba was disgusted by the unrefined artform exhibited by these criminals, as well as being displeased with having to live like a criminal and thus created what your average layperson perceives to be Capoeira, which he called Regional, and began teaching in a school under this false name. He greatly changed the art form, to be more in line with Asian martial arts, adding in more upright movments and spectacular flips, and created a rudmentary scarf-based ranking system that would evlove into the modern chord system.

Alongside this was a resurgence in a style considered closer to the roots: Angola, which was lower to the ground, had no ranking system, was mostly about precision and deception, and came into being aongside Regional due to the efforts of Mestre Pastinha.

Bimba presented his Regional style to the president of Brazil, who just so happened to be on a fitness kick for his country, and thus Capoeira(Regional) was de-criminalized

Edit: in 1937 it was legal to practice in certain sanctioned places, but Bimba got his official recognition in 1937 but had formed his school in 1932


2:

1: Cuffed slaves would most likely have had ankle cuffs as well as handcuffs

2: Capoeira just wouldn't work without hands

One of the first things I was taught in Capoeira was "Never let your ass touch the ground" Head, Hands, Feet? Yes, but never your torso or body. Why? Using your hands, feet, and head, keeps your body always in your control whilst moving, being on your back or ass doesn't. About 97% of all movments in capoeira couldn't be done without using one's hands either as a point of balance, a counter-balance, a momentum generating-tool, a means of distraction, leverage for takedowns, a hand to hold a knife in Navalha games, elbows for... elbow strikes, hands for.. punches and slaps, a guard when initiating headbutts( looove headbutts) a means of trapping or re-directing strikes(not a lot of trapping, or, at the very least, "Cup the strike, move in with a take-down" two-millisecond traps) or pretty much anything

3:Good capoeira training is

1: physical fitness training
2: a bit of technique
3: TIME TO GET IN THERE AND TRY NOT TO DIE!
4: WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?
5: KEEP MOVING DUMB-ASS!
6: See, now you got kicked in the nuts, and knocked on your ass. Stand up, walk around, shake hands, now get out, don't get mad, just go sit over there and let the people who know what they're doing play

Very few "Drills". Mestre Bimba Created Nine Sequences to be done by pairs of people, but that's it, and those are sporadiclly done in general

Darth SS
05-09-2010, 11:12 PM
Oh yah, it definitely was the cliff notes, courtesy of sporadic conversation. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about it. It's not exactly something I run into a lot in Saskatchewan.

Some day I think it would be interesting to spar with someone who practices Capoeira, just because I'm curious to see how they would respond to what I do. Specifically, I want to see how they'd respond to level changes.

Premmy
05-09-2010, 11:42 PM
Oh yah, it definitely was the cliff notes, courtesy of sporadic conversation. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about it. It's not exactly something I run into a lot in Saskatchewan.


Well, I mean, the "Handcuffs and secret dances" is just a part of the culture's mythology, like Besouro, famous magic-Capoeira-Gangster of old, (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1322277/)soooo it's kinda like ninjutsu practitioners talking about the black outfits and shogunate-hired assassins, it's encouraged, and it's easy to rattle off in conversation, but if folks were being serious they'd tell you all that long stuff


Some day I think it would be interesting to spar with someone who practices Capoeira, just because I'm curious to see how they would respond to what I do. Specifically, I want to see how they'd respond to level changes.
I don't suppose that's anything like Jeet Kune Do's Combat ranges?

Fifthfiend
05-09-2010, 11:47 PM
Oh look, it's that clip from Never Back Down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Back_Down)that always comes up when people want to talk shit about Capoeira!

Oh what, you don't remember that movie that really wanted to be the Karate Kid for MMA? oh, well that's probably because it sucked so hard (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/never_back_down/)

I say this as an admitted fan of 1. Karate Kid 2. Drumline 3. Fast and the Furious III 4. Only the Strong 5. the fucking DOA movie but goddamn Never Back Down was a shitty movie.

Funka Genocide
05-10-2010, 12:01 AM
I'd just like to point out that being able to punch someone hard enough to render them unconscious is really, really hard. Like, you have to be pretty buff and get the right angle and all kinds of horse shit.

The few fights I've been in I think I've thrown like 2 punches maybe. Its a lot more effective to just get them on the ground without any means to hurt you, because getting punched in the head sucks.

But yeah, boxing is a weird sport. My uncle used to be a boxer, I think his crowning moment of awesome was being one of the under card fights during a Tyson match back in the day. People do it for the money or because they really like getting punched in the head.

People watch it mainly to see big ass dudes punching each other, but I've found myself enjoying it at times for the strategy and skill of the boxers. I've never been a big fan of the one punch fighters, Oscar De La Hoya was a great boxer who knew when to pack it in, he made his money, had some great fights and quit before his brain was pulp.

If they could invent a way to repair damaged nerves and regrow braincells I might get in to it, but yeah like I said, getting punched in the head sucks.

Darth SS
05-10-2010, 12:32 AM
I say this as an admitted fan of 1. Karate Kid 2. Drumline 3. Fast and the Furious III 4. Only the Strong 5. the fucking DOA movie but goddamn Never Back Down was a shitty movie.

I say this as a fan of movies.

Never Back Down was a shitty movie. Not "Postal" bad, but not "Commando" bad either.

I don't suppose that's anything like Jeet Kune Do's Combat ranges?

Nope, nothing at all. It's just changing the vertical level you're attacking people. One of the things I like to do mostly as a product of escrima mixing with Krav's targetting strategies is I'll actually crouch or even hit my knees so I can unload shots at your bladder or at your knees, as opposed to bending over or kicking. I like using it to get under punches or kicks because it gets me out of the way and usually lets me load-up on my backhand, which is my far my strongest strike. So off high line kicks I like to hit my knees and just rip a backhand hammer fist right into the other knee. What I'm wondering is what the "classical" capoeira response would be to that.

Premmy
05-10-2010, 12:53 AM
Nope, nothing at all. It's just changing the vertical level you're attacking people. One of the things I like to do mostly as a product of escrima mixing with Krav's targetting strategies is I'll actually crouch or even hit my knees so I can unload shots at your bladder or at your knees, as opposed to bending over or kicking. I like using it to get under punches or kicks because it gets me out of the way and usually lets me load-up on my backhand, which is my far my strongest strike. So off high line kicks I like to hit my knees and just rip a backhand hammer fist right into the other knee. What I'm wondering is what the "classical" capoeira response would be to that.

Good way to think is
Regional=High, Fast, Agressive, direct
Angola=Slow,low, reactive, subversive

An Angoleiro's response would be to turn their head to the side because they're already down there with you.(or something like that, you get the point)

Like, Rodonkulously low.

Remember Abe Sapien in the Second hellboy movie? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDw7OwVUeE8) that was an Angoleiro.

And what you're talking about is actually very cool, because I was taught by an Angoleiro who, because of the group we were affiliated with, had to teach Regional as well,

So Rhoda sessions were filled with varying scenarios, one of Which was "Guy One play Regional, and You play Angola in response" and often we'd switch from Angola To Regional at random.

It was constant Up-Down back and forth.

My teacher could trap you on the ground until you just wanted to curl up in a ball because he would play a "Blocking" game that revolved around him pre-emptively stopping any movement you would make that he didn't want you to.

Fifthfiend
05-10-2010, 12:58 AM
Never Back Down was a shitty movie. Not "Postal" bad, but not "Commando" bad either.

I would have slightly more respect for Never Back Down if it had the moxie to be Uwe Boll bad instead of the halfhearted execution of garbled cliches which it was.