This is pathetic

[Osterbaum]

What is pathetic you ask. The fact that I am about to ask for opinions from you guys about my personal life. Why is that pathetic? Let's just say that the answer lies within in ourselves.

I am afraid to say this matter is rather serious. Atleast for me, atleast at the moment. Not so serious that I don't want to see any half-assed jokes in this thread though. In any case, and at the risk of seeming whiny and emo, here's the problem:

I'll try to keep this short, but I'll have to start from the beginning. Spring this year I was seeing a girl, a fellow biology student, for a few monhs. It was all good, but not super exciting or anything so we decided to call it quits in june. It was a mutual decision and it seemed to be the right one in the long run.

In july, while in Spain, I started to doubt the decision. Not 100% sure why. Maybe I liked her more than I had realized, maybe I was tired of being single? Whatever the cause, it led to me calling her, aranging a meeting and telling her how I felt. She was unsure what to do. We met again a week later and she was still a bit unsure, but I convinced her to give it a try anyway. So we did, and it was good. Until last week.

Last week I became unsure of a situation I had just a short while ago been sure was what I wanted. Really unsure. So unsure infact, that I've contemplated ending the relationship before it can really start (again). I am not sure why I suddenly feel this way. It might have something to do with fear of (any kind of) commitment, or it might not. Maybe I just don't like her as much as I thought I did. Maybe going to the army ads to the uncertainty.

That army bit needs a little more clarification. I'm going in a few weeks and I would want to have this matter resolved one way or another before that. If we break up when I'm in the army, if it's in bad (worse than now) circumstances it would be bad for my moral and motivation. If we break up now and in a few days or weeks I again think differently, that could be pretty bad aswell. At this point I'm not sure I can any longer fully trust my own judgement. We spoke about this today, and I know she doesn't feel the same way. Whatever my decision, I don't want to have her to have to wait for it any longer than possible. That is to say, as little as possible.

I hope all that is coherent enough. It's hard to get all the details in there so feel free to ask any additional questions you might have. What I am asking here is; What do you think I should do?

[Nikose Tyris]

Broach it from a viewpoint of fear, to her: Ask her what she thinks of you joining the army, and tell her that there are risks involved and that if things go the worst way imaginable, you two might never see each other again. Ask her if she's ready for you to be potentially very far from her, and if she thinks your relationship would last through that.

It's young, and she might admit that she agrees, it wouldn't last. It takes the Onus off you if she makes the decision to say, "I don't think -I- could stay with you through that"; alternatively, if she says, "Yes, I am confident that I'm strong enough to stay through that," it's an easy sign that if she believes in the relationship that strongly, maybe you should too.

I dunno, it's just one idea.

[krogothwolf]

If you really are unsure of everything then I think it would probably be best to explain the whole thing to her. Maybe fully talking it out with her might help explain your own feelings and help give you better perspective.

I think it's only fair you be honest with her and talk to her about it. It's a lot better then leading her on.

I'm sure there is a biology joke to make on this but I'm firing blanks on it.

[Osterbaum]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Your post has promted me to clarify a bit. The chances of me ending up having to do the worst imaginable are, atleast for this time around, really slim almost zero. It's not a troop meant for international use and Finland itself is in little risk of war. In the future I might think about applying for peace keeper duties, but that's far away and far from certain.

My fear now, I think has more to do with fear of not actually being with someone I want or being unsure of it. That and possibly regretting my decision later.

e: I talked to her just today infact. This actually prompted me to post here. She felt more sure about her feelings although she was unsure at first. The whole situation actually got kind of turned around since now it's me who isn't at all sure. In any case she did agree with me that the worst thing to do would be to stay together if I didn't want to. The only thing we agreed on though was that I would think about it more and we'd talk about it again in a few days. The talk went cordially and all even if a little sad.

e2: The main problem right now I feel might be my uncertainty. I don't want to stay in a relationship I don't enjoy being in any longer than I have to but I also don't want to end it and wake up the next day immensly regretting my decision.

[krogothwolf]

You know, it kinda sounds like your unsure because you're worried something else out there might be better. You want to be in a relationship but you're scared you'll end up with the wrong person. Like, you're scared to be alone and scared to be committed in fear of missing something better.

[bluestarultor]

Never settle. It's not good for either party. It's not good for you because it's something you don't really want and it's not good for whoever you're settling for because that person will feel it in small, but meaningful ways.

Chemistry is something you either have or don't. Even if you feel chemistry, if the compatibility is bad, then it's not going to hold the relationship up and the chemistry starts to wear off. Compatibility is also something you either have or don't. Compatibility without chemistry is much better suited to friendship.

I speak from experience in that I had a relationship where I felt chemistry, but the compatibility was poor. We didn't fight or anything (we got along famously), but there was just a disconnect in what I felt towards her and how we interacted. I still think she's a great person, but I found myself on the friend ladder because we were expecting different things and I wasn't fulfilling her expectations.

What you need to do is determine what you have and what you don't. If you feel chemistry toward her, you need to make sure it's mutual. If you have chemistry, you have to figure out what the problem is with the compatibility. This is harder, because chemistry is a primal thing you feel and just is, while compatibility is more cognitive and specific, but sometimes just as hard to explain because it's not just one thing. You need to think long and hard about what you expect from her out of your relationship and if she fits that image. It would be best if you asked her to do the same in a way that lets her know you want to know if it's going to work for both of your sakes. Think hard about it and make a list as things come to mind. When you both feel your lists are complete, compare them and see if they match up on the things that concern both of you and honestly discuss whether you both feel you can meet each other's expectations. If things don't match up, you need to accept that. Nobody is really going to change for another person. It just doesn't work that way. Change takes place over time, not over people.

If you feel that kind of direct route would put her off, suggest just being friends for a while and better getting to know each other. That way you're not chaining each other down for the duration of your military service. Tell her honestly how you feel about it and that you really want to work it out, and that it's not that you don't like her, but you want to be sure of your own feelings for both your sakes. Being friends frees you both up from making a serious commitment and lets you have fun together while you figure things out. It also lets your relationship grow naturally without binding you to subconscious role expectations. If you find yourself driving her around while you're friends, it's an extra thing pulled from a higher level, just as an example. If you're dating and you're not driving her around when she needs it, you're failing in a duty. Start at the lowest level and see what you're already willing to do from higher levels before you move up to them. Then when you do move up, it's an affirmation that you were already there.

Working up like that lets you examine just how far you're really willing to go when no one's pressuring you, which is as honest an approach as I can think of.

[pochercoaster]

^That... that contains so much pop psychology it makes my brain hurt... Sorry blues >_>

I'm going to echo Krogo here and say it sounds like you're worried about passing up future opportunities. I don't have much advice beyond that as I don't feel I can properly judge a situation unless I personally know the people involved.

Just out of curiosity, how long will you be in service, and how frequently do you get time off?

I was kind of in a similar situation as you, except there was no impending military service. It was at a shitty point in my life, though, and I figured I had nothing to lose so I just went with it and it turned out to be a good decision. Our barrier was long distance- however, we both happen to be really stubborn fucks and wouldn't give it up. We were both also kind of at a turning point in our lives so we didn't really care about any other opportunities that came up cause we were already seizing one.

Edit: This really doesn't need to be stated but trying to analyze all your different traits and such to determine compatibility is useless. People are too complex to be distilled into a list. I mean that's what internet memes are. You can think and think and try to figure out if this person is "the one" but ultimately it boils down to two people who are willing to compromise with each other. Obviously you can dismiss someone based on glaring personality flaws, like a cocaine habit or something, but if you already started going out then chances are the major barriers in your relationship aren't going to be ones that show up on a list.

Edit 2: Also I wouldn't say it's pathetic to ask for advice, it's not like you have to follow it or anything. Sometimes you just need to brainstorm.

[Osterbaum]

krogo has a point. But so does blues, pop pshycology or no. I apreciate the replies I have gotten.

e: Service lasts till april and in theory I get every week end off, in practice propably one in two weekends.

[TIME BOMB]

if youve only been dating this girl for a couple months you shouldnt worry about it too much. That isnt time enough to really get to know someone that well and you would probably be better off not being exclusive and enjoy being young and dating around. Especialy if youre already having doubts this early on.

[bluestarultor]

^That... that contains so much pop psychology it makes my brain hurt... Sorry blues >_>

I'm going to echo Krogo here and say it sounds like you're worried about passing up future opportunities. I don't have much advice beyond that as I don't feel I can properly judge a situation unless I personally know the people involved.

Just out of curiosity, how long will you be in service, and how frequently do you get time off?

I was kind of in a similar situation as you, except there was no impending military service. It was at a shitty point in my life, though, and I figured I had nothing to lose so I just went with it and it turned out to be a good decision. Our barrier was long distance- however, we both happen to be really stubborn fucks and wouldn't give it up. We were both also kind of at a turning point in our lives so we didn't really care about any other opportunities that came up cause we were already seizing one.

Edit: This really doesn't need to be stated but trying to analyze all your different traits and such to determine compatibility is useless. People are too complex to be distilled into a list. I mean that's what internet memes are. You can think and think and try to figure out if this person is "the one" but ultimately it boils down to two people who are willing to compromise with each other. Obviously you can dismiss someone based on glaring personality flaws, like a cocaine habit or something, but if you already started going out then chances are the major barriers in your relationship aren't going to be ones that show up on a list.

Edit 2: Also I wouldn't say it's pathetic to ask for advice, it's not like you have to follow it or anything. Sometimes you just need to brainstorm.

I... wasn't really trying? :sweatdrop

I guess what I'm trying to say is that having chemistry is a good way to start a relationship, but it has to be more than that. The two parties have to "work" together well enough that the relationship works out. Relationships are built on fulfilled expectations. A guy is going to expect certain things from a potential wife and vice versa. Maybe he expects her to manage the bank account, maybe she expects him to do it. If nobody ends up doing it, there's conflict.

When I said compatibility, I didn't mean some mumbo-jumbo "I'm a Virgo" thing as much as "this is what I expect you to bring to the relationship." Whether that's romantic dinners on the weekend or transportation or spontaneous gifts or playing Halo together or fantastic sex varies between different people.

[Nique]

I was with this girl for a while, right? She was a terrible girlfriend. No hobbies, no interests, she didn't even like to eat as she hated the taste of, nearly literally, everything. We had no meaningful conversations, she expressed no genuine concern for me. Our dates consisted of watching movies and/or hanging out with her family (who loved me, btw) and when hanging out with MY family, she retreated into her phone to text whoever instead of socializing.

And, y'know, maybe she has similar feelings about me now, I could have been a douche although I can honestly say that I put a lot of effort into that relationship... too much, in fact, as I took a lot of critisism from my friends and family about letting the relationship go on for so long before we ended things (I was, privately, considering engagment. God knows why). But we were happy, at first, just to be in a relationship, to have someone to kiss or hug or talk to when we were lonely, even if was about nothing.

I'm not suggesting that your lady friend is a boring person, but the story provides context for my advice which is that you should think about what this girl offers you - not in a completly selfish way, but you sound like a man with sum doubts. If those doubts center around how satisified you are with this girl as a close partner, it's time to be as objective as you possibly can. Do you share interests? Do you get along really well even if you don't share interests? You don't need to look for 'traditional' or classic signs of compatibility but if the relationship feels uncomfortable, you should probably look into why. If you're worried about hurting her feelings or something now, imagine how bad it will be when you don't show up at the alter? Or when you divorce her after ??? years?

Doubts will always be there. I met a wonderful, quirky, beautiful girl who I love very much and always will and I still freak out that I'm married sometimes. But I nearly proposed to someone I wasn't in love with becuase I wanted to be in a relationship that bad. I wasn't looking at her faults or the faults in our relationship objectively.

tl:dr - What about this girl is giving you doubts?

[Nikose Tyris]

Everything that blues said was terrible and you should ignore it, for an entire list of reasons that I won't get into here, but that 'never settle' line is absolute bullshit because everyone who isn't alone, settles.

You chased this girl, and won her, if you want to look at it in chivalristic overtones. If she was the person you yearned for, called, and who's come out and said she now feels that way for you- Don't break it off.

From how you've put things, she's happy, and she makes you happy. You're nervous, and a little intimidated, probably because you're not used to things going this swimmingly for you, am I right? Take this next part to heart:

How often are you happy? Are you happy to be around her? Is she what's making you happy, or is it something else? Is it her, or is it her [Sandwhich making][art skills][judo moves][sense of humor][ninja training][secret blood feud with your family that makes this love a rebellion] that you care about?

If she makes you happy, then why lose her?

[Azisien]

Stick it out a little longer at least to see if the unease turns back into ease.

Because it seems to me like random emotional flip-flopping.

[Nique]

Everything that blues said was terrible and you should ignore it, for an entire list of reasons that I won't get into here, but that 'never settle' line is absolute bullshit because everyone who isn't alone, settles.

That's a little strong, and probaby not entirely what blues meant on account of it being blues and his status as being blues usually causes this sort of hilarious, sitcom-like misunderstanding.

If she makes you happy, then why lose her?

This is essentially what I am asking, but with a positive spin.

Because it seems to me like random emotional flip-flopping.


lolz. Oster should watch Scrubs.

[Osterbaum]

If you're worried about hurting her feelings or something now, imagine how bad it will be when...
This.

What about this girl is giving you doubts?
I'm not sure. I think that on the long run she might not be as interesting, to put it some way, as I would hope for.

Stick it out a little longer at least to see if the unease turns back into ease.
This would be the obvious choice were it not for my looming service. I'd rather have things sorted out one way or another before that. So in a way my service is pressuring me to resolve things as quickly as possible.

If she makes you happy, then why lose her?
But does she? I thought I was sure this was what I wanted when we got back together and I certainly was happy for it then. But now, a very small (too small) ammount of time later, I am far less sure. I've changed my mind twice (or thrice if we count now) about us and I am no longer sure (at the moment) how far I can trust myself to make the decision I will regrett less.

Also I wouldn't say it's pathetic to ask for advice, it's not like you have to follow it or anything. Sometimes you just need to brainstorm.
I know. I was just making a nervous joke about asking advice from an internet forum (especially this particular internet forum). But in all honesty I do need to brainstorm and I trust that the opinions of NPF members will, at the very least, give me different perspectives. I also trust you guys not to give me advice you would think is bad advice.

[shiney]

Do you even know enough about the her behind the mask to make a decision whether or not she is actually interesting?

I don't know dude. I don't want to say you have an obligation or anything, that's a bit strong, but you did go back and be like "Y'know that whole breaking up thing? Not so much"...I dunno dude.

bluestarultor: compatibility is important, but it really is something that develops. "Love at first sight" is largely a myth, basing a relationship on "does she completely excite me right now" is debilitating toward progress because it disregards the benefits of growing with a person in favor of wanting to fit like a jigsaw puzzle. Saying "We're just not compatible" is a coward's way of saying "I don't want to put effort into this because it looks bad from the outset". It may turn out that a couple isn't compatible but that's not something that can be made as a snap decision and it isn't something that just "is". People grow and change and compatibility does too.

Basically and I say this sparingly and with extreme caution, I agree with everything Nikose said, and if you will please excuse me I'm going to go have another acid bath now.

[krogothwolf]

You have a problem Oster, and it's not because it's your confused. It's because you are working on a deadline, and that's going to fuck things up even more because you can never make a sound decision when rushing through it.

Also, if your worried that she might not be as interesting as you hope, she could also be more interesting then you hoped, or maybe just enough. Worrying about that is fairly ridiculous because you won't know until you try. Not only that you could find something even better out of this that has nothing to do with interests. Hell, all sorts of crazy things can happen during a relationship.

Me and my wife have very little in common with each other. But we still have fun doing what we each enjoy, and together. (Although she still refuses to play Video games and Table Top War Games with me, damn her!!!). But yeah, we have our love, we have things we do together, we mostly do her stuff and she argues that my stuff is boring or geeky but oh well, I can't really complain. Plus we have fun just sitting around and talking, we also fight, cause fighting about silly things is awesome(We both love fighting though so it's all good!). And at the beginning I wasn't overly sure about it either but hey, it was the best thing to ever happen to me. Well now the little tyke is up there with that as well.

But yeah, you're kind of worrying about the silly things in a new/young relationship. Hell, the thing that might actually be worrying you is the fact you have Service come up and some part of you doesn't want to have her go through the separation of it all so you're making excuses with yourself to call it off. The Mind plays weird tricks on you when you're on a deadline.

[Osterbaum]

I'd like to point out that before we did go out for a few months and we've been studying the same subject for over a year, so I have had some time to get to know her.

Even though...
bluestarultor: compatibility is important, but it really is something that develops. "Love at first sight" is largely a myth, basing a relationship on "does she completely excite me right now" is debilitating toward progress because it disregards the benefits of growing with a person in favor of wanting to fit like a jigsaw puzzle. Saying "We're just not compatible" is a coward's way of saying "I don't want to put effort into this because it looks bad from the outset". It may turn out that a couple isn't compatible but that's not something that can be made as a snap decision and it isn't something that just "is". People grow and change and compatibility does too.
...I completely agree with this, I'm not convinced in this particular case. That same answer goes for krogos whole post. I'm not convinced.

I don't know dude. I don't want to say you have an obligation or anything, that's a bit strong, but you did go back and be like "Y'know that whole breaking up thing? Not so much"...I dunno dude.
The way I see it is that if my doubts are right then the alternative of continuing anyway is in many ways worse. That doesn't mean I don't feel like shitty guy for this whole thing and the fact that the whole situation brings up certain self trust issues; how much can I trust myself to actually make the right call?

You have a problem Oster, and it's not because it's your confused. It's because you are working on a deadline, and that's going to fuck things up even more because you can never make a sound decision when rushing through it.
I am confused and I am working on a deadline. But it so happens that this particular deadline I take pretty seriosly. I've been in the army before and that time around things didn't go all that well all the time because of relationship related problems.

[bluestarultor]

I'm going to simply throw down a few bullet points to explain myself in hopes people better understand what I'm saying:


When I say "settle" I mean it in a way that leaves you looking elsewhere at what you might have had instead of what you have. Nobody gets a perfect match. People are people, not robots. But if you're not really satisfied with what you have, that's no good for anyone.

When I talk about compatibility, I don't mean that two people have to mesh on a subatomic level, either. They DO have to match up well enough that they don't end up chipping away at their love for one another. Love doesn't die all at once. Divorces happen because too much conflict slowly wears it down. I think this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZMIgheZro) is helpful in explaining what I'm talking about. (I am a terrible person for using that.) The point I want you to pull is that there are many people out there who would be good matches for you or anyone else. You may not start out fully in synch, but love grows over time. I'm just saying you have to work well enough together that your differences don't wear down your love faster than it can grow.

Side note: I never said compatibility is something that just "is;" I said that about chemistry. I totally agree with what you're saying, shiney, but you're confusing what I said.


Keeping all this in mind, the biggest thing to take from my posts is that in situations like this, you need to assess your expectations and whether your partner is going to fulfill them. Maybe you're like Krogo and have zero in common, but it's exciting to delve into each other's interests. In his case, if his wife didn't have any interests and didn't want to do his, that would be unfulfilled expectations. That's actually half of what killed my parents' marriage was my dad having no interests and not liking my mom's. Everything boils down to whether both people agree on the basic structure of the relationship. If there's just too wide a gap between what you're looking for and what you have in front of you, you end up unhappy.




I'm just going to finish this post by saying something terrible.

Oster, if you're still not sure after three tries and over a year of knowing her, normally chances are going into a relationship is not a good idea. There's taking a relationship slowly and then there's just a point where "slowly" fails to describe it. On the other hand, you only actually dated, that is really got to know each other on a deeper level, for a few months, which is not, in my book, long enough to really deeply know someone. Hell, by the end of that point, I couldn't even remember Laura's birthstone off the top of my head (Aquamarine). Chances are you don't really have a deep enough knowledge of her yet to make a real decision and I'd normally say to just keep dating her so you could keep that process up. Normally, but you're going to be away from her.

Ultimately the decision is up to you. If you feel you're going to be seeing her enough to continue learning about each other, keep it up. In fact, that should be your default in this case if you're not sure. If, on the other hand, you feel like you haven't been or won't be learning anything about her that can help tell you whether she's the future Mrs. Osterbaum and will be together with you long enough to have your own little Osterbabies running around, it might be less painful to just tell her you can't keep up the relationship while you're away. Then when you get time for her again, if she's available, you can try for a fourth time.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Well, I kinda spaced over some of the replies and such... mostly because it's 4:16 in the morning and my eyes are kinda glazing over, and I'm currently wondering what the fuck I'm doing up... but I've got to side with Nique and Nikose on this one. I've never been a fan of the idea that someone should never settle... (sorry Blues) to be honest, a relationship, even if it's not meant to last, has meaningful moments that can make positive impacts on your thoughts, self-esteem, hell, your whole damn life. And who knows? Perhaps it's meant to last after all. You never know unless you actually try.

As the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth the two that Dick Cheney won't be able to shoot in the bush because he's too busy blowing his friend's head off....