View Full Version : Gender Identity Discussion Thread
So, there are of course the basic genders of male and female. And then you have transgenderism, which is where a woman was born with a man's body or a man with a woman's body. There's also intersex, which is where the person's body is both male and female, and this can be separate from gender identity. (Like being intersex but identifying as female) The others I know besides these are androgynous, where the person doesn't identify as either gender, and bigender, where they identify as both genders. I am bigender. Nonbinary genders like bigender and androgynous are often categorized as genderqueer, which is a sort of umbrella term. Some also consider bigender a branch of transgender.
I can't talk a whole lot on the subject of a lot of gender identities, and there's a lot of variety among them. Just like normal genders, there aren't exactly a bunch of rules saying a ____ person has to be a certain way, though you may see some patterns repeat themselves.
I'm not sure what discussion there is to be had, but I'm sure there is and Fenris didn't want more of it cluttering the announcement thread anyways, so...
Professor Smarmiarty
05-09-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm in the "Don't give a shit camp". You cavemen can carry on being slaves to your biological thrusting and your primite and frankly highly suspicious goings on, I'll be in the future. Where we are robots.
Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
rpgdemon
05-09-2011, 05:24 PM
I'm in the "Don't give a shit camp".
Fo' real. Doesn't matter to me what someone sees themself as.
Professor Smarmiarty
05-09-2011, 05:29 PM
Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
While not directly correlated there is a strong association between the two
both neurologically and as cultural identifiers and to claim they have nothing to do with each other is absurd.
And both of them rely upon biological categorisation which I was pooh poohing.
Azisien
05-09-2011, 05:32 PM
We deal only in mechanical categorization here.
Professor Smarmiarty
05-09-2011, 05:34 PM
Ideological categorisation but only warring ideologies of the frankfurt school are accepted. Adorno 4eva. Biology is so primite and inelegant.
Personally I'm all for people living whatever gender/sexual identity they want to (personally I am bisexual) but the whole 'intersex' 'transexual' 'cisgender', all those PC words they keep making up and changing for the purposes of being politically correct and not offending anyone? Those are fucking stupid. Especially 'cisgender'. GOD that word is stupid.
Like it wouldn't be so bad but they keep changing words and deciding things are offensive and crap. I used the term "hermaphrodite" in a discussion about people with both sets of genitals and someone was like "OMG THAT'S NOT PC"
And I was like "Fuck you."
Personally I'm all for people living whatever gender/sexual identity they want to (personally I am bisexual) but the whole 'intersex' 'transexual' 'cisgender', all those PC words they keep making up and changing for the purposes of being politically correct and not offending anyone? Those are fucking stupid. Especially 'cisgender'. GOD that word is stupid.
Because the implication of calling cisgender people "normal" is that everyone else is abnormal. Do you honestly not see how non-cis people could take issue with that?
Also, how the hell is transexual a "made up PC term"? That's the actual term. Same for intersex.
EDIT: As for the changing terminology, there's generally a reason for it. I don't know why hermaphrodite isn't used anymore, but I expect there's an actual reason for it and if intersex the preferred term then that's what I'm going to use. I am not intersex. I have no right nor stake in what intersex people are called. They do. They get to choose the appropriate terminology because it's about them, not me.
Abnormal means not normal, ie in a minority, which non "cisgendered" people are. Should we not use the literal definitions of words now?
If you'd like a better example of what I'm talking about when I say PC is stupid, look at the "Fuck yeah Privilege-Denying Dude" tumblr and read the things the creator says, especially when answering questions. Also the comments.
Nikose Tyris
05-09-2011, 06:17 PM
...just to confirm, Privledge-denying dude was originally supposed to be ironic and examples of how Heteronormative Cisgenders can be idiots.
I'm aware. The actual posters are usually pretty amusing, but the actual things the guy posts are retardedly oversensitive.
Abnormal means not normal, ie in a minority, which non "cisgendered" people are. Should we not use the literal definitions of words now?
You use the term straight, don't you? "Why use the term straight instead of normal?" Same concept. Abnormal, regardless of actual meaning, has harmful connotations and is often used in a harmful way. If "abnormal" people don't like being called abnormal or implied to be abnormal, since you have the privilege of being "normal" and in a society that caters to you in a large number of ways, you ought to concede the point and use the terminology that does not offend them.
I cede the point within the context of caring about offending people, which I do not.
I cede the point within the context of caring about offending people, which I do not.
Then I don't care about offending you in this instance.
I see no way of viewing a person who looks at the people society harms on a regular basis and says, "I'm perfectly content to make your life more painful and miserable than it already is," as anything other than a complete ass and a miserable human being, at least in this respect.
Magus
05-09-2011, 06:35 PM
Can we stop the presses and explain what the hell a cisgender is before complaining about whether or not to call cisgender people cisgender?
Can we stop the presses and explain what the hell a cisgender is before complaining about whether or not to call cisgender people cisgender?
Cisgender is a person whose birth sex and gender identity are the same thing.
Example: Someone who identifies as male and was born a male.
Fenris
05-09-2011, 06:40 PM
Cisgender is a person whose birth sex and gender identity are the same thing.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/NuklearFenris/Reaction%20Images/Waugh-1.gif
Regarding your irritating comment you edited out, it's not something that shows up in regular conversation or is trying to be shoved into regular discussion. It primarily shows up in trans discussions or discussions about/connected to non-cis genders. I mean, I know it's all well and good for you that you get to consider yourself the privileged, happy special default all the time, but perhaps discussions about trans issues aren't the best place to imply trans people aren't "normal." Just a thought.
If you still doubt it, how about you go up to a gay person and try to explain that they aren't normal. If you get a reaction that isn't your ass being kicked or them being rightfully pissed the fuck off I'd wager they're either an exception or have the patience of a fucking saint.
Magus
05-09-2011, 06:57 PM
Cisgender is kind of a weird word, though, wouldn't homogender mean the same thing or is that something else?
Fenris
05-09-2011, 06:58 PM
@Non:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/NuklearFenris/Reaction%20Images/Waugh-2.gif
Cisgender is kind of a weird word, though, wouldn't homogender mean the same thing or is that something else?
Perhaps, though I think without explanation people would assume it has something to do with homosexuality. In that regards it'd be counter-intuitive. Plus, I'm used to cis-gender and I'm too old and grumpy to change my lexicon.
Kerensky287
05-09-2011, 07:01 PM
Look, I get that you're going through a lot of stuff. I get that there are some ways you define yourself by that, unfortunately, are poorly understood by a lot of people in the world.
But you are kind of coming off as an absolute dick right now.
If someone says something insensitive to you, the proper reaction is not to lash out and rage at them. There are a lot of words here that a lot of people have never heard of, nor ever thought of as "necessary," and when you act as if it's 100% obvious that it should ALWAYS EXIST FOREVER, well, some people don't/didn't see it that way.
If you want people to treat you with tolerance - and I assume you do, otherwise you probably wouldn't have made this thread - then you should recognize that people aren't intentionally stamping down on you or a group you associate with. Stop acting like someone spat in your face. Educate them if you feel it's necessary.
EDIT: Fenny that gif is starting to hurt my eye through sheer empathy
hooves do not go there
especially cartoon plastic hooves
rpgdemon
05-09-2011, 07:04 PM
If someone says something insensitive to you, the proper reaction is not to lash out and rage at them. There are a lot of words here that a lot of people have never heard of, nor ever thought of as "necessary," and when you act as if it's 100% obvious that it should ALWAYS EXIST FOREVER, well, some people don't/didn't see it that way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
Look, I get that you're going through a lot of stuff. I get that there are some ways you define yourself by that, unfortunately, are poorly understood by a lot of people in the world.
But you are kind of coming off as an absolute dick right now.
If someone says something insensitive to you, the proper reaction is not to lash out and rage at them. There are a lot of words here that a lot of people have never heard of, nor ever thought of as "necessary," and when you act as if it's 100% obvious that it should ALWAYS EXIST FOREVER, well, some people don't/didn't see it that way.
If you want people to treat you with tolerance - and I assume you do, otherwise you probably wouldn't have made this thread - then you should recognize that people aren't intentionally stamping down on you or a group you associate with. Stop acting like someone spat in your face. Educate them if you feel it's necessary.
EDIT: Fenny that gif is starting to hurt my eye through sheer empathy
hooves do not go there
especially cartoon plastic hooves
Right, because "I don't care about offending people" and him claiming to respond with "fuck you" to someone asking that he try not to offend intersex people shows that there is clearly a wealth of understanding, compassion, and caring deep within his heart.
Clearly he is incredibly open to being educated and convinced of the wrongness of his ways, which is why he just said he doesn't care about offending people before leaving the discussion. If only I had taken the time to show patience to someone with admittedly zero interest in the feelings of others they would have seen the light.
Fenris
05-09-2011, 07:06 PM
Right, because "I don't care about offending people" and him claiming to respond with "fuck you" to someone asking that he try not to offend intersex people shows that there is clearly a wealth of understanding, compassion, and caring deep within his heart.
There's a difference between bigotry and a disdain for compulsory political correctness.
Words are words.
There's a difference between bigotry and a disdain for political correctness.
Words are words.
If you don't care about the feelings of intersex people, then it is reasonable to assume you do not care about the feelings of intersex people. It's not exactly a logic leap.
Fenris
05-09-2011, 07:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
^
Or are you going to argue that a person who used the word "faggot" around me, and when I explained that I found the word offensive as it was typically used in an offensive way towards gay people, a group to which I belong, and their response was dismissive and rude, that they truly and deeply cared about the plight of gay people.
rpgdemon
05-09-2011, 07:11 PM
If you don't care about the feelings of intersex people, then it is reasonable to assume you do not care about the feelings of intersex people. It's not exactly a logic leap.
Yeah, I'm with you here.
Granted, if you want someone to care about you, generally making them dislike you isn't the way to do it.
But I think that it all comes down to, again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
Er, somehow hit delete instead of edit. And then checked off the box. Because I pay attention when I do stuff.
And I even forget what I was editting in.
Edit: Because I'm not going to sit here idly and not have this post get editted, after all that work.
Fenris
05-09-2011, 07:12 PM
@Non: I think I'm going to continue poking myself in the eye in lieu of trying to discuss things with you because you are actively seeking to blow this out of proportion and take as much offense as you possibly can to anything anybody says ever, as per the usual.
Granted, if you want someone to care about you, generally making them dislike you isn't the way to do it.
Good point: Clearly people being mistreated and offended should be even nicer and then all forms of mistreatment and bigotry will go away.
Because they were nice to someone who didn't give a fuck about their feelings.
World peace.
@Non: I think I'm going to continue poking myself in the eye in lieu of trying to discuss things with you because you are actively seeking to blow this out of proportion and take as much offense as you possibly can to anything anybody says ever, as per the usual.
You have fun with that.
CLEARLY IT IS THE FAULT OF INTERSEX PEOPLE THAT TDK DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OFFENDING THEM
BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T MAKE HIM LIKE THEM
IF ONLY THEY HAD CONVINCED HIM TO LIKE THEM
rpgdemon
05-09-2011, 07:16 PM
Good point: Clearly people being mistreated and offended should be even nicer and then all forms of mistreatment and bigotry will go away.
Or you can be a dick, and the people who are on your side can go, "Well, dude, fuck you, I mean, yeah, you're right, but you're a complete dick. Fuck that, to the other side I go."
When you're a dick, even when you're right, you change the focus from the other person being wrong, to you being a dick, and then it doesn't matter that the other dude's wrong, because no one likes someone who's being a dick.
Or you can be a dick, and the people who are on your side can go, "Well, dude, fuck you, I mean, yeah, you're right, but you're a complete dick. Fuck that, to the other side I go."
When you're a dick, even when you're right, you change the focus from the other person being wrong, to you being a dick, and then it doesn't matter that the other dude's wrong, because no one likes someone who's being a dick.
TDK: I don't care about offending oppressed people.
Me: Well, then you're a shit person for that.
Everyone else: NonCon, you're a jerk. He just doesn't like political correctness and treating people with basic respect. What's wrong with that?
Me: Fuck this, I'll be a for reals dick.
Kerensky287
05-09-2011, 07:18 PM
Good point: Clearly people being mistreated and offended should be even nicer and then all forms of mistreatment and bigotry will go away.
It's more likely than your assumption, which is apparently that snapping at people will garner support and empathy for your cause.
That's not how people work.
It's like you're playing world cup football, and any statement related to gender identity is another player on the field. Is it within 5 feet of the edge of your comfort zone? Then BAM! Critical injury of feelings. Yellow card, bitches, yellow card.
EDIT: I mean yes TDK was out of line but calm the hell down and quit being such a martyr.
Fifthfiend
05-09-2011, 07:19 PM
Or you can be a dick, and the people who are on your side can go, "Well, dude, fuck you, I mean, yeah, you're right, but you're a complete dick. Fuck that, to the other side I go."
When you're a dick, even when you're right, you change the focus from the other person being wrong, to you being a dick, and then it doesn't matter that the other dude's wrong, because no one likes someone who's being a dick.
The fact that you aren't at all concerned with the person who is 1. being a dick and 2. is also, you know, wrong, is pretty telling here.
EDIT: I mean yes TDK was out of line but calm the hell down and quit being such a martyr.
He was pretty calm until multiple people jumped in to attack him for his calm response to thoughtless, insulting behavior.
It's more likely than your assumption, which is apparently that snapping at people will garner support and empathy for your cause.
That's not how people work.
It's like you're playing world cup football, and any statement related to gender identity is another player on the field. Is it within 5 feet of the edge of your comfort zone? Then BAM! Critical injury of feelings. Yellow card, bitches, yellow card.
The thing that is fucking ridiculous about this entire fucking conversation is that someone outright said, "I'm totally fucking fine with making people who are already oppressed feel worse." And I called him a dick for that. Because that's a dick thing. But I'm at fault for calling him a dick and getting pissed off at the people defending him. It's not snapping at people. It's criticizing people who've already demonstrated that they don't give a fuck either way. It's not dissuading them from being supportive. It's calling them out on their bullshit for not being supportive in the first place.
rpgdemon
05-09-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm not talking about that, that was fine to call him out on being a dick. But then continuing to dick it up, is what I'm talking about. There are people who will disagree with you, which will offend you. Okay? So, you're offended.
Furthermore, in the spirit of the thread, I vote that we stop calling people dicks, because that is insensitive, man. I mean, dicks have been oppressed for too long, being used as a slur.
And then it's the fault of the people who were offended.
TDK was a douche.
But they should have been nicer.
You are honestly arguing that the groups mistreated are at fault for not taking their mistreatment in stride from someone who has admitted they have no intent of ceasing to mistreat them.
What the fuck.
Fenris
05-09-2011, 07:24 PM
Everybody shut the fuck up, thread over.
I'm going to go back through and look at this as objectively as possible, run what I would do based on those findings past another mod for approval (since I was involved in that discussion), and then do those things.
shiney
05-09-2011, 07:24 PM
I don't see how or why people suddenly developed this insistence that they have the right to not be offended. Sorry Non but I mean you make this thread, take it to discussion, then someone says "I use words because they are words" and you say "but those words hurt me" and it disregards the delivery and the message itself, in that they are just words. You choose to be offended by something that can be deemed harmful, but it is based on the intent of the speaker as to whether or not it should be harmful. You're creating a situation where none needs to exist.
Sorry to drag that up like half a page later but I mean seriously. He said abnormal meaning "not normal" meaning "in the minority" -- not "totally weird".
*shrugs*
And you're flipping out based on a misinterpretation in a discussion you created yourself. That's like saying "Ha I can't be hit by bullets WAIT STOP SHOOTING AT ME"
Edit: I totally posted this simulpost w/Fenris, check the timestamp :< I'm not threadjacking a closed thread, Fenris sucks
McTahr
05-09-2011, 07:24 PM
When you describe the majority as normal, you marginalize all other possibilities. Thus was Non's argument born. It's not "Let's be PC and try to make every one super happy sunshine babies" it's "Let's not marginalize and detract from the worth of entire groups of people every single time we talk about this."
E: Jesus Christ you kids post fast. And close fast.
Fenris
05-09-2011, 07:41 PM
Okay, in my eyes this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1125518&postcount=15) is the post when the line was crossed, when NonCon states "[you are] an ass and a miserable human being."
To my eyes, the rest of the thread was Nonsy making multiple strawmen arguments, each more ridiculous than the last, and then getting angrier and angrier when people people weren't playing into those strawmen arguments.
So.
NonCon: You have a tendency to view that being correct means that you have the right to belittle and insult those who you view as not being correct. Contrary to what you seem to believe, it IS POSSIBLE for most people to be courteous to those who they disagree with. You need to work on this.
You've been down this road too many times for me to give you just another warning. I'll see you in ten days.
synkr0nized
05-10-2011, 04:13 AM
When you describe the majority as normal, you marginalize all other possibilities. Thus was Non's argument born. It's not "Let's be PC and try to make every one super happy sunshine babies" it's "Let's not marginalize and detract from the worth of entire groups of people every single time we talk about this."
Yup -- and it's a good point/counter to how TDK presented himself. It's just too bad that it all expanded into some kind of ... whatever this is.
shiney
05-11-2011, 03:20 PM
In further review in the moderator discussion regarding this incident, TDK, you are warned to be more mindful of what you are saying particularly in the circumstances when you don't care if you are or are not offending someone, and what you should take away from the diplomatic nature of the preceding statement is hey don't be a jackass dude. You will receive an infraction in your inbox relating toward the comments leading to this situation as a whole. Non's punishment will stand as well as this is not the first time this has happened.
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