I need advice on the purchase of a house

[Nikose Tyris]

Hey everybody! I'm in Toronto, and I'm getting a LOT more familiar with the finer details of money and mortgages, and I've been informed I am expected to get a house.

Which, yeah, if you can afford it, better then renting where you're flushing your money every month. :/

SO I've found a place. 3 houses on this crescent are listed for sale through this company, and this one's the nicest- although two more are listed through a different company.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=18+MASSEYGROVE+CRES,+Toronto&layer=c&sll=43.737322,-79.582570&cbp=13,203.69,,0,3.7&cbll=43.736411,-79.584782&hl=en&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=18+Masseygrove+Crescent,+Toronto,+Toronto+Di vision,+Ontario+M9V+3E7&t=h&panoid=RsJLHeMvUD4aN7RrOtYI1Q&ll=43.735903,-79.584135&spn=0.003729,0.010568&z=17

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?&PropertyId=10494933&PidKey=-2106592530

I have some very specific questions for those inclined:

-What, exactly, is Central Air Conditioning? I've heard the term, and I've seen a number of 'example' air conditioners and I'm just not able to piece it together mentally. Is it just an AC unit that's permanently built into the house or something?

- Heating: Forced Air, Natural Gas. What the hell? I don't know what this is [The forced air part]. Can someone familiar with it get me an easy to understand explaination? Is it cheaper then electric heat?

- Hydro costs. Electricity is cheaper at different times in the day- midnight to 5 AM being the cheapest power times. I think it's called Metered running? Anyway, we're 7+ People [One I will be sleeping with] going to live in this house, and all of us are addicted to our computers. O_o anyone wanna take a stab in the dark at Hydro costs? All but one of us will spend most of the day at school.

I think those are my 3 biggest concerns at the moment, and I wanted to bring them to you all.


Edit: Oh yeah and I'm like 99% sure it's not a crack house despite being a really good price [all the houses on this street are]. I'll be investing in Bars for windows because frankly that's just good sense inside a big city with a high crime rate.

[Eltargrim]

Central air is often tied into forced air, iirc. The idea is with forced air your house will have a furnace and vents; the furnace will heat the air and force it through the vents. Central air conditioning allows for cool air to be forced through the vents as well. It's not a permanent window unit.

The other alternative to heating that I know of is just convection; you've got a boiler and radiators, simple stuff.

Electric is often really expensive; electric heating is relatively inefficient, iirc.

I wish you luck and good tidings.

[CelesJessa]

-What, exactly, is Central Air Conditioning? I've heard the term, and I've seen a number of 'example' air conditioners and I'm just not able to piece it together mentally. Is it just an AC unit that's permanently built into the house or something?

It's like this. (http://www.mustknowhow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/page0_1.jpg) So yeah, instead of an air conditioner you would put in the window, it's one that's pretty much permanently hooked up to the house.

[Specterbane]

As far as Water costs, I lived in a house with six guys and about $350 US every 3 months. But that would be Cincinnati, OH costs; I have no idea if it's done differently in Toronto. I'd recommend calling the utility place you'll be paying and asking them what kind of rates they charge and if they could give you some kind of unofficial guess at the per-person amount of water you'll be using.

Other tips for you are to make sure your house is well insulated, examine the place and have it appraised as a part of the final deal, and generally make sure there aren't any structural problems or bug problems. That's about all I can think of now, but you can probably find a good home buying guide on the internet somewhere.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't know about merka but wherever I've lived gas heating is far far cheaper than electric unless you got a fancy dancy heat pump.

[Nikose Tyris]

Thanks guys, that answers a lot of my early concerns. I've got a property inspector who's going to come with me on my second lookover of this house.

edit: and I'm definitely calling hydro to find out some estimates, thanks Spectre.

[shiney]

For reference, you can ballpark the cost of running a desktop computer 24/7 for a year at approximately $200 USD (roughly equivalent in CAN by now since the dollar sucks ass). So multiply that by 7, run it through a little analysis based on the time of day...you get where I am going with this. Not sure of the difference in cost for a laptop.

You guys might want to get used to shutting down or placing the comps in hibernation.

[Nikose Tyris]

That's actually not too bad. I'm looking at some energy-friendly stuff from our server tower too, since we're going to need it.

Also, I get to finally put my education to work, and get some good physical lines established, and do Ethernet wall outlets. <3 I don't think I can describe how happy that makes me.

[Aerozord]

I just want to say from someone that has central air since it sounds like its not something you are used to. That is a massive plus to a house. I'm not even kidding once you get used to it using older heating and cooling systems will be like having to use an out house. Sure you could, but after the alternative you'll realize how crappy it is.

Seriously I dont think I'd ever buy a house that didn't have central air conditioning

[Nikose Tyris]

Well, I'm in Canada. We have 2 days a year where it gets warm enough to use an Air Conditioner, and then we just go to the beach. =P

[Eltargrim]

Dude.

Old houses are rad. (I swear I didn't intend for that to happen)

But seriously, depends on climate. 7+ people in TO? Central air.

2.5 in Winnipeg? The breeze works.

Seriously Nikose, from my time in Toronto, central air was awesome. Just don't go crazy; set it no lower than 20 or something, you'll still be comfortable. Shit be pricy.

[Aerozord]

Well, I'm in Canada. We have 2 days a year where it gets warm enough to use an Air Conditioner, and then we just go to the beach. =P

it heats your house too

[EVILNess]

Make sure you get the house thoroughly inspected to make sure there isn't any costly or potentially dangerous damage to the house. Look for mold in the ceiling spaces, vents, etc.

Good luck.

[shiney]

Agreed, if this is a house PURCHASE, you are going to be on the hook for a long time and need to be damn sure you can afford to pay for it even if all 6 of your pals move out. (Depending on who will be on the title/deed.)

[Premmy]

I just want to say from someone that has central air since it sounds like its not something you are used to. That is a massive plus to a house. I'm not even kidding once you get used to it using older heating and cooling systems will be like having to use an out house. Sure you could, but after the alternative you'll realize how crappy it is.

Seriously I don't think I'd ever buy a house that didn't have central air conditioning

Living in Georgia for so long makes me agree with this even if I was moving to Alaska.

[Specterbane]

Assuming this is a purchase you might also consider having a formal Lease agreement drawn up for your roommates as their Landlord, and they pay you to help your mortgage. This is one of those JUST IN CASE sort of things, but you don't want something biting you in the ass later. Also if you haven't lived with a bunch of friends in a house before you might want to ask for advice on that, but that's a whole other can so to speak.

[Nikose Tyris]

That lease is actually in the works; I'm drawing up the numbers for a fair contribution, and collecting first/last; As well, lease will dictate 3 months notice. [It's looking like $475/room, and that covers mortgage payments. Bill collections for Internet, Phone and Hydro will be split evenly. Property Taxes are on my ass.]

[P-Sleazy]

My one piece of advice for this involves your mortgage. And its simple too.

STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM ARM (Adjustable Rate Mortgages)!

yes, they're usually lower than the fixed rate mortgage. But its only temporary. They will rape you in the ass 3-5 years from now. Go with a Fixed Rate Mortgage as those rates will be relatively low for fixed rates. And it will lead to a MUCH more predictable payment plan that you can follow and not worry about interest rates going up.

[Aerozord]

I was told to always go with a 30 year mortgage even if you can afford 15. If you can afford 15 then take the 30 and just over pay each month. But with a 30 you make sure that if you ever get in trouble your monthly rate will be less.

of course thats for US, things might be different there

[Nikose Tyris]

Canada has two overarching 'types' of mortgages; Fixed Rate, and Variable. Variable is currently the favourable one, as mortgage rates are trending downward. I'm already down for fixed rate, amortization period 30 year, with interest over 15 year. I've received approval for a 4.8% rate; I've based my numbers on 8.6%, with 30 years of interest, to help produce a buffer in my personal savings.

The finer details are still in the works, but for those interested-

Mortgage Amount:
$359,000.00 [After $30,000 Down Payment]
Interest Rate Type:
Fixed
Payment Amount:
$634.08
Amortization Period:
30 years 0 months
Payment Frequency:
Weekly
Interest Term:
30 years 0 months
Interest Rate:
8.600%
Actual payment, equal share:
$460 a person if 6 people. [Each room, $500, + Bills would be best]

This is assuming worst rates of interest and worst mortgage you can qualify for. I'm going to have significantly better then what I've listed here, and if we literally by at the listed price- I'm not to pay a penny more then 329,000 as the base price, and include closing fees in that number. [I have a property inspector and a real estate lawyer, the same that my family always uses, that will be coming with me.]

Basically, I have a lot on my mind, and the more information shared around, the better. [it lets me pick your brains.]

[Magus]

Jesus sure knows a lot about buying a house for a guy who seemed to spend all of his time wandering around and crashing on other people's couches.

[Nikose Tyris]

I can't even begin to comprehend what you're talking about.

[Krylo]

Jesus deleted his post.

Much like the Old Testament.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It was his early years. We don't bring up the work of the Quarrymen, we should leave it lie.

[Jesus]

Yea, for the slave given fifty talents multiplied them into a hundred talents, and the slave given twenty talents multiplied them into forty talents, and the man who was given ten talents buried them, and was righteously scolded by his master, yea until he was the only one with anything left after the talent crash of 0006.

[Amake]

- Hydro costs. Electricity is cheaper at different times in the day- midnight to 5 AM being the cheapest power times.
Is it just me who read this and immediately thought "Build a room-sized battery that can be charged when it's cheap and run everything on that the rest of the day"?

And yes that's the only advice I have. :I

[Seil]

The interior designer in me wants to ask you a question.

Okay, it's two questions: What is your dream house? What is the house you can get otherwise? Because I find that if you take elements that you are happy with and apply them in the real world, you'll be much happier when you find a house with jacuzzi jets and a sink with a spray-nozzle - which are things that I want but realize that my current income make inapplicable.

Also, find a registered dude - like, ask to show his certificate and such - and ask him to look at the house. When I was five, I was surprised my dad lied about the fact that the upstairs bathroom leaked. People sometimes lie. Check that shit out.

[TDK]

Is it just me who read this and immediately thought "Build a room-sized battery that can be charged when it's cheap and run everything on that the rest of the day"?

And yes that's the only advice I have. :I

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20101030.gif

[Nikose Tyris]

The interior designer in me wants to ask you a question.

Okay, it's two questions: What is your dream house? What is the house you can get otherwise? Because I find that if you take elements that you are happy with and apply them in the real world, you'll be much happier when you find a house with jacuzzi jets and a sink with a spray-nozzle - which are things that I want but realize that my current income make inapplicable.

My dream house is 3 stories on a 4 acre lot, fenced in with a gate at each corner, with a 2 tiers of in ground pools, one that spills into the other, with a grotto/hot tub. It features a series of waterslides that come down from each of the 8 bedrooms from the upstairs.

The dream house is primarily constructed of soundproofing materials for privacy and enjoyment of hobbies. A rec room is large enough to play ball hockey in, and features a 10 foot ceiling.

The property would ideally be situated on the outside of town, just at the far edge of public transit.

I'm gonna cut myself off there- my dream house is an unrealistic one. <3 This house has a Jacuzzi tub, and is on a lot large enough that if I really wanted to, and the money came to me, I COULD install a pool or larger.

It's got the stuff I need, which is most important.

Also, find a registered dude - like, ask to show his certificate and such - and ask him to look at the house. When I was five, I was surprised my dad lied about the fact that the upstairs bathroom leaked. People sometimes lie. Check that shit out.

Oh man, you have no idea. My grandfather's worse then me for talking out his ass like he knows what he's doing. I'm bringing him along because he'll be critical of every little fault he can find; I'm bringing the property inspector along to do the actual job of saying "Oh hey, look, a secret room filled with garbage!"

Also, contemplating setting up Solar Cells on the roof to sell back to the hydro company- Electricity costs are highest in the daytime in Toronto, and the buyback rate is fairly high. It may help offset, but I'd need to price out the hardware and installation, and I'm willing to wager the startup costs would be too lethal to make it happen.

[Specterbane]

From what a prof at school told us Solar Cells may not be worth it, from the maintenance cost alone they never paid off for a large corporation he knew of because there wasn't enough consistent sun.

But that's anecdotal and second (possibly third) hand at that. I'd say just make sure you look into the cost and benefits very thoroughly before you invest in it; that includes start up cost, maintenance, good yearly estimates on how much power they'd generate on average (since it needs a sunny day and all), and any tax breaks you might get for green energy.

[Melfice]

If you're lucky, there may be some hidden financing for installing solar cells (or a general "going green") with your government.

I think there's something like that in the Netherlands, so that's always worth looking into. They'll usually try to keep it hidden, though, to avoid too many people wanting in on that.
It's something like 50% of the purchase and installation and they'll pay you a few bucks for the first year to offset the start-up period.

But again, I'm not 100% sure since we rent and never had a need to look into that. Obviously that's only for people who buy.

[TDK]

Obviously that's only for people who buy.

Melfice makes a good point. Solar power could very well be financially sound if you don't pay the exorbitant fees the companies that manufacture them charge.

They aren't really so difficult to make. Depending on what method you use.

[Nikose Tyris]

I'll let you try and convince me on MSN, TDK. I'm interested in that 'Ehhhh but startup costs and shit...' kinda way.

[Melfice]

Melfice makes a good point. Solar power could very well be financially sound if you don't pay the exorbitant fees the companies that manufacture them charge.

They aren't really so difficult to make. Depending on what method you use.

Actually, I meant that we rent our house.
Not that we'd rent our solar cells. But yes, that IS a good point.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Re solar cells- I dont really know how you would make them yourselfs without access to a lab- seems a bit dodgey to me.
Defineatly avoid doped silicon based "1st generation" type cells.
The best on the market at the moment would are probably Cu-In but ideally I would actually wait a couple of years. Graetzel dye based cells and organic polymer cells which are the most promising cost-wise home based cells will be coming onto the market proper (I think you can get them but its difficult(.

[Nikose Tyris]

Remind me to rep you tomorrow for that. I'm basically clueless and you sound like you know what you're talking about.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Some guys in my office work on solar cells. Though all my learning on them comes from overhearing their discussions so maybe I'm totally wrong.

[Nikose Tyris]

Okay so, I hope nobody minds me resurrecting this thread; third viewing through the house happened yesterday, and I've got a lot of stuff to comment on/share.

First up, PICTURES! [Mostly pictures of trouble areas in the house or things I was concerned with.]

They have 15+ people living in this house. 15+ people in a seven bedroom house. [yes, seven bedrooms. oh my lord.]

In order from my walkthrough:

They have their cars parked on the grass. Total number of different cars I've seen: 7.

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6531/dscf0703.th.jpg (http://img818.imageshack.us/i/dscf0703.jpg/)

Front shot of the house. Driveway is too high, place is unkempt, but that's a small issue to fix.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1849/dscf0704lz.th.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/dscf0704lz.jpg/)

Doesn't look like the wood shingles were ever waterproofed. Not especially critical; probably a spring fix-it project. I'm planning on putting solar panels on this, and the raised roof section front anyway. I might just seek out some nice looking ones and use them for style.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8393/dscf0705v.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dscf0705v.jpg/)

Garage floor. Raised Driveway + houseful of people that don't understand why dumping cement could possibly be a bad idea = this ugliness.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5128/dscf0706e.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/dscf0706e.jpg/)

This is a pretty lawn.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2051/dscf0707x.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/dscf0707x.jpg/)

See that blue box? We had thought it was a compost. Turns out, no, this family just stole 2 clothing donation bins for no real explainable reason.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1648/dscf0708h.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/dscf0708h.jpg/)

Side of house, showing the metal liner. Those with really sharp eyes might note some brick seperation here. Dollar signs in my head seein' that. Cheap repair but great for bargaining and knocking the price down.

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/276/dscf0709.th.jpg (http://img804.imageshack.us/i/dscf0709.jpg/)

Another closeup of the garage floor, to show how ugly it is. Note that because of the raised floor and crappy installation, the garage doors do not shut all the way. security issue. Going to rip up the driveway and lower it.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7522/dscf0712m.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/dscf0712m.jpg/)

Self installed garage doors, lookie there everyone. [No photos of inside the garage- and be greatful, it was stacked to the roof. They had a mezzonine inside that they weren't using for anything but bags and bags of clothing, and the left side of the garage was stacked so high you couldn't see the door into the house.]

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/4048/dscf0713x.th.jpg (http://img607.imageshack.us/i/dscf0713x.jpg/)

Bedroom 1. This is a lot bigger then the photo lets on- there's a partially completed ensuite bathroom. I'm probably going to finish it, and give that room to a specific roommate I have in mind, for slightly more on the rent. It's also the biggest upstairs room.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3689/dscf0714s.th.jpg (http://img855.imageshack.us/i/dscf0714s.jpg/)

Middle upstairs bedroom. So nice, well lit. small-ish, but it's got room for all the necessities. The young woman has a queen sized bed, and it fills up the room... a lot.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2695/dscf0715y.th.jpg (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/dscf0715y.jpg/)

Single sized bed, in what turns out to be the 'average' bedroom size. There is one more bedroom upstairs but the door was locked at time of photo taking- subsequent visits show it to be the moms bedroom, which is, not kidding, the cleanest room in the house. it felt like an entire different building stepping into her room, and it's the only room I removed my shoes to enter.

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/5461/dscf0716.th.jpg (http://img802.imageshack.us/i/dscf0716.jpg/)

Living Room, middle floor. It has big french doors onto the Porch. Walls need painting in this room. Not much else to say about it. It's a comfortable sitting room.

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/8089/dscf0717.th.jpg (http://img607.imageshack.us/i/dscf0717.jpg/)

Back Porch, underneath. Snapped some photos of some wood rot that had me concerned- spoke to carpenter. I've got another 6 years or so on this back porch before I need to worry tooo much, so I have time to accumulate a hedge fund.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2497/dscf0718n.th.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/dscf0718n.jpg/)

This is a poorly installed window with visible insulation. Nothing I can't fix up.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9387/dscf0719d.th.jpg (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/dscf0719d.jpg/)


Not shown: Self installed door at back of house that leads into garage & Pantry; Pantry; Kitchen; Dining Room; Bedroom on Stairwell; Bedroom downstairs; heater room; Downstairs living room [probably going to turn that into the main entertainment center]; the three bathrooms.

Big concern/red flag for me was all the mold issues in the house- this family if 15+ had no idea what they were living with. I've got a couple breather masks and some drywall guys that are going to carve it out, remove the insulation, and install new on all those spots.



Shower, I'm looking for input- the tiles are covered/lined with mold from nobody wiping them down. They have a standing shower with tile wall and floor. Should I tear out and install a prefab Shower Stall, or just clean like crazy and institute a house rule of 'wipe it down or there will be hell to pay?'

Kitchen needs the cabinets repainted, but they're not awful. Need to have the vinyl paint stripped off them for certain, and a couple of doors need new handles. I may just strip the vinyl paint and use a wood finish on them, and leave it be.



I have plenty of roommates lined up, but are there any Canadians that might want to look into checking out a place in outskirts of Toronto, on public transit? :P It's about a 45 minute trip from here to Union Station, which I'll use as my reference point for 'Downtown Toronto'.

Also, in case I can only secure 6 roommates, I'll leave an open door invitation to anyone who finds themselves needing a place to crash.

[Nikose Tyris]

We've put in an offer at 249K / 30K Down. I'm expecting it to be refused. We'll do a bidwar until we hit 300K and then I walk.

We'll likely get it- this family has their eyes on a set of apartments across town, that has more room. There is 0 space for these people, and they will basically be renting the whole building just to stay together. [The eldest daughter was talkative, to my real estate agent's delight.]

I'm confident on getting the funding when I need it.

[Specterbane]

A concern for me would be the garage door. Not just for security, but since it does close all the way you could get rodents in there pretty easily, and if you Driveway's slopped (I can't quite tell from the picture) you could have issues with it flooding when it rains.

Sounds like you taking a lot of precautions and doing your research well with appraisers and carpenters. Good luck, I hope it goes well.

[Nikose Tyris]

Thanks. :) You're right, the driveway is sloped- I'm getting a drain channel installed in the garage, and we're going to have to lower things down.

This house is a lot of little jobs that are piling up. If I pushed to do all this fast, I could have posession by August 1st, and have the 'big' jobs done by start of school year. [Windows being a big concern].

I'm dodging a bullet by not moving in till around end of fall- I won't be hit with the high Air conditioning bills at that point. :P