What's wrong with Flouride, exactly?

[Nikose Tyris]

Okay bit of a broad topic here, but I've been invited and pestered to join a bunch of anti-flouride things lately, and I'm actually kind of confused. Googling it only brought me to a big propoganda page that had nothing that resembled verified evidence or any real scientific backing, and the only thing they listed [despite labeling it repeatedly as deadly, toxic, going to kill me, etc] was flouridation of the teeth in young children, causing a white spotty appearance.


Flouride is naturally in the drinking water, and we add more to it in the city of Toronto that remains within the concentration levels as set out in health and safety guidelines.


I'm just really confused. Can someone explain the fear, and explain to me if it's justified?

[Aldurin]

I think this one of those things along the lines of banning hydrogen dioxide, given how flouride is beneficial in numerous ways. Really people should be focusing on real issues regarding unhelpful ingredients in products.

[akaSM]

I think this one of those things along the lines of banning dihydrogen monoxide, given how flouride is beneficial in numerous ways. Really people should be focusing on real issues regarding unhelpful ingredients in products.

FTFY

I haven't seen anything like that around here...yet. If it's so bad, I wonder why a salt company advertises their product as "fluorada" (fluorinated).

http://www.superahorrosuministra.com.mx/product_images/j/sal_la_fina__14295.png

[Aldurin]

FTFY

And that's why I'm not going into chemistry.

[Archbio]

Have you ever seen a commie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcHNYenN7OY&feature=related) drink a glass of water? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5Vvs2cdqY&feature=related)

[bluestarultor]

Since I happen to be here anyway, basically fluoride being good for your teeth is unsubstantiated bullshit based on one guy observing one town back in the 1800s and despite all of its 2 inhabitants having disgustingly brown teeth from the high fluoride levels in the well water, nobody happened to have cavities at the time. From that point forward we've spent a good hundred years not going back and doing any fact-checking.

Some contested info asserts that fluoride collects in the brain and can cause developmental problems and such, which is why most toothpastes say kids shouldn't swallow them.

But, really, even if it's not causing brain damage, the fact of the matter is it's not helping our teeth, either. Better to just drop the whole thing and, y'know, actually study it for once than to find out in another 100 years our IQs should all have risen an extra 60 points and that it causes autism and cancer and herpesyphilAIDS.

[Marc v4.0]

Since I happen to be here anyway, basically fluoride being good for your teeth is unsubstantiated bullshit based on one guy observing one town back in the 1800s and despite all of its 2 inhabitants having disgustingly brown teeth from the high fluoride levels in the well water, nobody happened to have cavities at the time. From that point forward we've spent a good hundred years not going back and doing any fact-checking.


This seems a rather suspect presumtion.

[phil_]

I bet Dr. Strangelove was funnier back when the audience could pretend that the people in power couldn't possibly be that crazy.

Dr. Strangelove makes me cry and I never want to watch it again.

[pochercoaster]

This topic interests me as well. I've drunk distilled water for the majority of my life and have had few problems with my teeth besides some of them growing at weird angles and not being able to afford braces. (Yeah, I know anecdote =/= evidence...) It is difficult to find an unbiased source of information on the topic. On the one hand it seems like many people believe fluorine is good for you just because it's hammered into your head by Crest commercials. On the other hand I don't have any relevant education in biochemistry and I'm not going to pretend I'm more informed than a dentist. However it wouldn't surprise me if the addition of fluoride to water is unnecessary and actually doesn't make much of a difference in terms of your dental health.

Does the body actually require fluoride to be ingested? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't fluoride benefit your teeth by coming into contact with the surface of the tooth (hence fluoridated toothpaste), not by being ingested? And if so, is simply brushing your teeth twice a day with fluoridated toothpaste so insufficient that we must drink it as well?

(This reminds me of how people react when I tell them I don't drink milk and consume very little dairy- they freak out because they think it's simply not possible for me to get enough calcium from other sources...)

That said, I don't think the city adding fluoride to water makes it EEEVIL or some weird conspiracy theory, just that it's some kind of semi-myth that councilors with good intentions believe and wish to implement because that's what you're supposed to do... Wouldn't surprise me if it falls out of practice.

Edit: Personally it doesn't bother me that much because I already filter my water (dunno if it filters out fluoride, though). If I'm missing out on some benefits eh, it's my fault. After living with well water for nearly a decade though I can't stand the taste of city water. I can even smell the chlorine in it when I shower and it drives me nuts, although that's unavoidable if I don't want to be contaminated XD

[Orcmeat]

Dr. Strangelove makes me cry and I never want to watch it again.

That movie also greatly disturbed me. Much like the thought of being stuck in a Cracker Barrel during an earthquake. I mean, really; at what point did it become a great idea to hang farm utensils from the ceiling?

But in regards to the topic at hand.

This seems a rather suspect presumtion.

Agreed. While I'm obviously no fluoride doctor (my own studies having been completed in the related, albeit tangentially, field of looking on in helpless despair as something dubious transpires in the foreground), a thorough search of Wikipedia has revealed that a 2000 'systematic review' of the efficacy of water fluoridation demonstrated an association of fluoridation with decreased cavities in children. This suggests that there's been a few less years than 100 spent without fact checking.

Of course, the link cited is now dead. Take that for what you will.

[PyrosNine]

I'm in the camp that's more worried that there are trace amounts of piss and fecal matter in the average person's drinking (and bottled) water than whether or not some relatively harmless other chemical does any good. I mean, seriously, even if it is filtered and purified, it still had to come out of someone's exit hole at some point.

Eh, flouride's just the oldest sheep in wolf's clothing, so there's this social consciousness about it that lingers even after "100 years" and general public acceptance, even when there are more logical complaints about things added to food and products that don't provide any health or practical use at all. Though I guess alternative sweeteners have lower calories...

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Since I happen to be here anyway, basically fluoride being good for your teeth is unsubstantiated bullshit based on one guy observing one town back in the 1800s and despite all of its 2 inhabitants having disgustingly brown teeth from the high fluoride levels in the well water, nobody happened to have cavities at the time. From that point forward we've spent a good hundred years not going back and doing any fact-checking.

Some contested info asserts that fluoride collects in the brain and can cause developmental problems and such, which is why most toothpastes say kids shouldn't swallow them.



Do you brush your teeth with toothpaste? Go look at your toothpaste tube, the primary ingredient is sodium flouride and the sodium is just an inert ion because you can't just package flouride.
Like yuo could argue that toothpaste doesn't work...?

Flouride has no negative effects unless you were to drink massive concentrated quantities of it, far more than regular quantities.
People complaining about it are quacks and generally are more concerned with the "big government" getting involved in public health when that hsould be the task of private doctors clearly.

As for the "I brush do I need it in water question" possibly not but there is no added harm in getting more of it, it will only help you.
This also takes us onto the other question people raised about random shit in drinking water- that is also all bollocks. I mean unless you live in Africa or something genereally public water is cleanear than bottled water which has all this random toxic shit from the components they use to make plastic.
And if you are filtering your own water you might still b e getting the flouride, it depends on how you are filtering. Some filters are designed to get organic molecules, some get various ions, some get particulates- it really depends.

[Lumenskir]

People complaining about it are quacks and generally are more concerned with the "big government" getting involved in public health when that hsould be the task of private doctors clearly.
Heh, blues tries to get out but always gets sucked right back in.

In DC, they apparently extra-chlorinate the water supply every winter/spring, so that one day you'll be taking a routine shower and then HOSHIT it smells like you're being sprayed directly from a swimming pool. Would have been nice to have known about that before hand, but I just plugged my nose during showers, made sure not to swallow when I brushed my teeth, and blindly assumed that my Safeway-bought Britta filter was up to the task.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Why does it matter if you swallow? It won't hurt you. Chlorine is used as a disinfectant, it kills all the bad shit. That's why they add it.

Also from earlier its not dihydrogen monoxide, it hydrogen oxide.

[Nikose Tyris]

...I'm bothered by Smarty's input as I'd only ever heard H2O as "Dihydrogen Monoxide" before this.

Here is where he explains that the "Di" aspect is negligable for some reason.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Because you only use prefixes when elements are in nonstandard oxidation states.
In water O = -2 H = +1,, that is normal, don't need prefixes.
It's not incorrect to call it that but is not the standard way you would name it.
Sometimes you make exceptions when the standard name could cause confusion (like carbon dioxide to make it clear it is not carbon monoxide even though it could be called carbon oxide) but this isn't particularly the case with water. I mean you could argue that calling it hydrogen oxide could confuse the case with hydroxide ions but they are rather different in occurence to water that that shouldn't really come up, unlike carbon monoxide and dioxide.

[Melfice]

Water (H2O)

IUPAC name[hide]
Water
Oxidane

Other names[hide]
Hydrogen oxide
Dihydrogen monoxide
Hydrogen monoxide
Hydrogen hydroxide

Apparantly, it's all valid.
Although, that last one seems iffy. Hydrogen and...? Liquid oxide?
I'm not a science-dude, though.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Last one is hydrogrenated hydroxide, as in H+OH=H2O.
Those other names are not as elegant as they could be though, hydrogen oxide 4eva.

[Nikose Tyris]

Having Smarty arounds means it's okay that I don't 'get' chemistry, cause He can explain it in little words to me. :D

[Lumenskir]

Why does it matter if you swallow? It won't hurt you. Chlorine is used as a disinfectant, it kills all the bad shit. That's why they add it.
I'unno. It smelled funny so my lizardbrain told me not to drink it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Dinosaurs were lizards (fuck you paleontology! Birds don't live on the ground [except ostriches, and moas, and kiwis and some other ones] and if you not a lizard reptile you are like a snake!- Also everything I have read about Richard Owen has lead to me believe he is an evil wizard and will hunt me down if I call them non-lizards) look what happened to them! Ruled for 150 million years but still get wiped out by a tiny meteor!
Your lizard brain leads you to ruin.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Why does it matter if you swallow? It won't hurt you. Chlorine is used as a disinfectant, it kills all the bad shit. That's why they add it.

http://retromedia.ign.com/retro/image/article/959/959746/OT-int2_1236296048.jpg

[Osterbaum]

Dinosaurs were lizards
Sure they were, but their closest relatives alive today are still birds.

Why does it matter if you swallow? It won't hurt you. Chlorine is used as a disinfectant, it kills all the bad shit. That's why they add it.
I'm not sure what the exact effects of chlorine as a disinfectant are on microbes. But killing off all of your body's natural flora wouldn't be exactly healthy. Chlorine is there to keep the water clean so you don't ingest any other potentially dangerous microbes not to kill off microbes already inside of you though. You'd propably have to swallow quite a lot of it to have any negative effects. Also your normal flora isn't THAT fragile. So in reality I guess that's not an actual risk.

But ingesting a lot of chlorine can mess up your ion-balance. Which would mostly lead to some discomfort assuming you drink enough "regular" water afterwards.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The key being a LOT of chlorine. With the amount they put in water you would have to drink far more water than would be possible before it would affect you. LIke maybe if you regularly funnel kegs of water it might do something to you but if you drink a regular amount you be fine.

[akaSM]

Then again, water hydric acid can kill you too*.

*in excessive amounts

[Osterbaum]

The only difference between poison and non-poison is the dosage.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Hydric acid isn't a real name! Dihydrogen monoxide is correct but redundant, hydric acid seems a bit dodgey.
Also hwill it could be lethal you would have to co nsume such a ridiculous amount that you would probably die of suffocation first because whatever bizarre contrapation you have got to fill yourself with that much water will shut off your airways. Like I don't even know how you could physically consume enough water to kill yourself. Surely your body would just close up.

[bluestarultor]

Heh, blues tries to get out but always gets sucked right back in.

Which is why I'm adamant about leaving this place and won't be further replying directly to the topic at hand. I've been monitoring my "I wanna respond" levels very carefully since I decided to briefly return to beg votes for Battle's new name.

Trust me, I've kicked forum addiction before. It's a long, long process.

[Eltargrim]

Hydric acid isn't a real name! Dihydrogen monoxide is correct but redundant, hydric acid seems a bit dodgey.
Also hwill it could be lethal you would have to co nsume such a ridiculous amount that you would probably die of suffocation first because whatever bizarre contrapation you have got to fill yourself with that much water will shut off your airways. Like I don't even know how you could physically consume enough water to kill yourself. Surely your body would just close up.

Hyponatremia can kill you, though that's not the same as death by chlorine.

[akaSM]

Like I don't even know how you could physically consume enough water to kill yourself.

Do you remember this? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6261509.stm)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I didn't account for holding in your piss. Foolish of me.

[Magus]

When I was a kid in a rural area they gave us one of these little teensy tiny flouride tablets to chew every day at school, seems like that might be a better approach to this whole thing just because then people see a tiny tablet and are like "oh I'm only getting a little tiny bit of this stuff, it won't make me grow a third arm", 'cause now they apparently think they are drinking gallons of flouride just because they are drinking gallons of water. Obviously they flouridate the water because in a large urban center it is an easier way to do it than to make sure every public school child gets a flouride tablet, but the flouride tablet would probably have people flipping out less.

[Eltargrim]

Ok, this is actually bugging me.

Fluoride, not flouride. One is an element, the other is some kind of flour drink or something.

[Aerozord]

know what strikes me as odd, most people dont even drink tap water. Bottled water, carbonated beverages, juice, milk. Or atleast I was under that impression

[Magus]

Ok, this is actually bugging me.

Fluoride, not flouride. One is an element, the other is some kind of flour drink or something.

No, no, that's Flourade, the Pancake-Batter-Craving-Quencher.

[Lumenskir]

know what strikes me as odd, most people dont even drink tap water. Bottled water, carbonated beverages, juice, milk. Or atleast I was under that impression
Yep, those are other options for things that people can drink.

[TDK]

know what strikes me as odd, most people dont even drink tap water. Bottled water, carbonated beverages, juice, milk. Or atleast I was under that impression

That depends entirely on where you live, and the quality of said water. And even then its a crap-shoot. Personally most of what I drink is tap water.

[Magus]

I think there is a general stereotype in our culture that we are all a bunch of pampered babies who all go around drinking bottled water instead of tap water but it's probably not statistically true at all. But then again like TDK says it depends on the quality of your water. If it tastes like city water used to taste back when I was in the city on visits and so on, then you'll probably see an uptick in the drinking of bottled water, but then again you're discounting people who can't afford bottled water or who have decent tasting city water or people who don't care what water they're drinking or, heck, ice cubes. So people use tap water quite a bit more than the stereotype of Americans would express.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Germany is one which I found particularly bad. THey have ridiculously clean tap water far, the quality standards being higher than bottled water but everyone screwed their nose up at me when they saw me drink it

[Aerozord]

well, most bottled water is just tap water thats "filtered"

[Professor Smarmiarty]

And full of plasticisers and diamines and whatever other randoms plastics shit leeches into it!

Also spelling is for nerds.

[Melfice]

I don't even LIKE bottled water, unless it's flavoured with some sort of fruit.
Straight-up bottled water just tastes like shit. Seriously.

Tap-water's where it's at.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Can't beat the taste of the evil giardia!

[rpgdemon]

I drink slightly radioactive water straight from the ground, with no filtration or anything. Wimps.

[Aerozord]

I don't even LIKE bottled water, unless it's flavoured with some sort of fruit.

so, you mean you like kool-aid?

[Magus]

Well it's usually that sugar substitute stuff that people put in bottled water but that's pretty much what it is as far as the flavor goes...I know this because somebody gave me a "gift" of a bottle of water and a little packet of powder (what a lame gift, I know, but they put a little cardboard card thingy on it to hold the packet of powder so apparently there was thought put into this).

[Azisien]

What's wrong with Flouride? It's a highly unstable form of starch. The scientific literature is a little too quiet on the subject, frankly. Probably yet another conspiracy.

[akaSM]

so, you mean you like kool-aid?

I do; pretty much every other powdery flavory stuff around here has some sort of sugar substitute in it. My tongue is really sensitive to something in those sugar substitutes, and besides tasting bad to me, I get an aftertaste that isn't really pleasant D:

[Archbio]

Artficial sweeteners were invented as part of a project to isolate and synthesize the essence of aftertaste.

[Magus]

The only good diet sodas and diet drinks are the ones that just throw every single modern artificial sweetener in there (sucralose, aspartame, acesulfame potassium) along with like, ginseng or whatever. They each seem to cancel out the aftertaste of the others...at least this is my only theory for why Pepsi MAX is pretty excellent, anyway.

EDIT: Of course, some people think aspartame and other artificial sweeteners cause cancer too so we're back to the fluoride debate, in essence...

[TDK]

aspartame and other artificial sweeteners cause cancer

Nah, that's a bunch of bullshit.

[Archbio]

Palate cancer.

[Osterbaum]

Everything causes cancer.

[Aerozord]

Everything causes cancer.

especially cancer

[akaSM]

especially cancer

And cancer treatments.

[Osterbaum]

According to a swedish research, a 100% of cancer patients die.

[Magus]

I don't believe it myself, I was just saying that if you have people concerned over fluoride you also have your people concerned over aspartame, sucralose, cell phones, power lines...

I've done my own research and I can positively say that everybody dies eventually. A few outliers here and there are easily disregarded.