The Lies They Told

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I once was a wee lad, bright eyed, strawberry hearted reading a textbook which told me that we would never be able to know what colour dinosaurs were.
10 years later and indeed that is exactly what we are doing. My childhood was a lie!

[TDK]

I am convinced that grade school science textbooks are not in fact written by scientists. What they don't oversimplify they just plain get wrong.

Also they all have to go through texas so

[Magus]

"Dinosaurs?! You mean behemoths and leviathans, right? Call them by their correct names from the book of Job, commie!"

[EVILNess]

Also they all have to go through texas so

While it isn't my fault, I still apologize for that.

[Aerozord]

I am convinced that grade school science textbooks are not in fact written by scientists. What they don't oversimplify they just plain get wrong.

I think they were right at the time. When I was a kid I was always confused why all all my text books called Russia, USSR

[Azisien]

Lord of the Rings happened on Earth?

WHAT IS THIS SHIT

[Kerensky287]

We were supposed to be overrun by an authoritarian dictatorship like, 27 years ago. Who's going to tell me whether we're at war with Eurasia or Eastasia NOW, huh? It's all wrongbadfun.

[Magus]

You mean doubleplus ungood?

[Bells]

"the moon is not visible during the day"

"Light bulbs emit transparent light"

Aah... 5th grade science..........

[Aerozord]

ah I still remember when I realized that if what they told about STDs was true then by now pretty much every human alive should be a walking plague

[Ecks]

While we're on that subject... I was told that sex was for married people and that it only felt good between two people in wedlock, and everyone else was going to get STDs and have their genitalia fall off.

That is the biggest crock of shit ever, it's for everybody, it feels good no matter what, and I still have my penis. Sex rocks.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I looked at a girl once and my dick fell off. THAT WAS NO LIE.

[Aerozord]

specificly the there was two things that always confused me for statistical reasons. I did ask others to make sure I wasn't the only one that thought this, that STDs were all incurable, with a 100% transmission rate. Not only did logic step in and I realize no illness has perfect transmission, but yes, there are cures for lots of them.

The real danger is the stigma attached to STDs, most of them are only threatening if you dont get them treated in time. But no society is so worried that if people learned most STDs are relatively harmless with our medical technology we will start having weekly orgies.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

All this talk of STDS only reminds me of my crippling disability.
New topic:
DOUBLE JEOPARDY BONUS ROUND:
In school we were taught that glass was a liquid and flows over time. Then we were taught in first year and BY WIKIPEDIA that it is infact a solid and the previous myth was a lie. But then we are taught that no it actually is a liquid and that last statement was a lie.

[BitVyper]

Glass isn't matter, idiot. YOU CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH IT.

[Aerozord]

In school we were taught that glass was a liquid and flows over time. Then we were taught in first year and BY WIKIPEDIA that it is infact a solid and the previous myth was a lie. But then we are taught that no it actually is a liquid and that last statement was a lie.

better question, why do schools still teach kids there are only three states of matter

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well generally there are. All the crazy shit is not that important and doesn't really ome up.

[Sithdarth]

better question, why do schools still teach kids there are only three states of matter

Because its easier than describing the thermodynamic definition of a state and the associated calculus needed in order to under stand it. That is to say states of matter are indicated by discontinuities in derivatives of physical properties. Mostly first or second derivatives of those properties and usually with respect to temperature, but no always. But try explaining that to a 7th grader.

In school we were taught that glass was a liquid and flows over time. Then we were taught in first year and BY WIKIPEDIA that it is infact a solid and the previous myth was a lie. But then we are taught that no it actually is a liquid and that last statement was a lie.

It's neither. It's an entirely different thermodynamic state of matter than most solids we are used to. It also does flow just not nearly as fast as some people have said it flows. Of course at the rate it does flow you'd probably have a fairly good chance of seeing a proton decay while waiting for it to flow a visible amount.

[Aerozord]

but kids find that very suspect when 20mins later they get some jello

[edit] yes I do know this can fit into those three catagories, but the simplified version they are taught doesn't hold up against even something that simple

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's neither. It's an entirely different thermodynamic state of matter than most solids we are used to. It also does flow just not nearly as fast as some people have said it flows. Of course at the rate it does flow you'd probably have a fairly good chance of seeing a proton decay while waiting for it to flow a visible amount.

It is a complex fluid switching between rubbery liquid and amorphous solid, ie a big non-newtonian fluid with alternating patterns of order and disorder. While it is below the Tg at normal temperatures TG is a poorly defined transition point and some of it is liquid at room temperature.
It's not that different from anythign we know. And even the "amorphous solid" domain has significant fluid properties and theoretically we describe it in the same terms as we would describe a "liquid" cause that is basically what it is.

Seeing glass flow in normal cases is basically impossible though, if I remember it's ike a billion times more viscous than war, but its is simply a case of using an oscillating rheometer to change the Tg. I've done it and it's pretty neat.

E: Like if you wanna be anal about it its a solid-liquid binary phase but that's so ridiculously unhelpful of a defintion, defining it in terms of a non-newtonian fluid is much more useful.

[Aerozord]

fact that we are even arguing the accuracy, I think we can excuse a textbook regardless of which one that textbook goes with

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Textbooks were right!

[Aerozord]

conviently themed article (http://www.cracked.com/article_19296_6-lies-about-human-body-you-learned-in-kindergarten.html?wa_user1=3&wa_user2=Science&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=trending_now)

[Azisien]

Because its easier than describing the thermodynamic definition of a state and the associated calculus needed in order to under stand it. That is to say states of matter are indicated by discontinuities in derivatives of physical properties. Mostly first or second derivatives of those properties and usually with respect to temperature, but no always. But try explaining that to a 7th grader.

That doesn't make any sense you wouldn't have to be that detailed to a 7th grader. You could just be like okay kids welcome to grade X, we're adding plasma/superfluid/whatever we feel would be neat to throw in.

I mean they teach electricity as a unit in Grade 9 here but that doesn't mean we go build national power grids or learn the quantum mechanics of electrons.

[Eltargrim]

For what grade 7 science education is for, 3 states of matter is fine. I didn't formally learn about ions or atomic structure until grade 9 anyway.

[Aerozord]

this would be so much easier if instead they qualified it "here are the three main states of matter", to express there are more, but these are the ones you really need to understand. Also might be a good idea to explain that gases are also fluids

[Magus]

As someone who has personally had to substitute in an elementary schools and been given a lesson plan having fifth grade kids do math questions with parentheses and exponents and all of them giving me a blank stare as I asked them "now, do you all remember the order of operations?" and realizing, no, they never learned it, and then desperately trying to teach them PEMDAS in one class period AND have them do their homework, and then later having to teach them the three types of rock for about 40 minutes and draw this crazy flowchart on the board showing how lava and shit turns into igneous rock, but at other stages it can literally be other kinds of rock if it's put under certain kinds of pressure and heat, but sometimes it just turns back into magma, too, and do all this in 40 minutes, and then later give them a "social studies" lesson on fucking Peru or whatever, I can safely say that covering more than three states of matter before high school would be pretty much impossible because of how elementary schools are set up in this country where you have one teacher teaching all subjects, because once they get out of elementary school they're just being introduced to the middle school way of things and I have the feeling middle school teachers tear their hair out over what the elementary school teachers failed to teach them that is required knowledge to learn what the middle school teachers need to teach them.

(BY THE WAY I'M A SECONDARY ENGLISH MAJOR)

EDIT: By the way science textbooks do seem rather interested in dealing with only three of each thing. Three Newtonian laws, three states of matter, three types of rock, etc.

[Azisien]

Well okay 7th grade is too early. Though I must say I am surprised, I had a teacher per subject from grade 5 and on.

[EVILNess]

Remember when your parents told you they took your dog to a beautiful ranch where he can run and play all day, and never be sick or unhappy?

They lied to you.

[Magus]

Here they either start middle school in 7th grade or 6th grade and that is where they go to different teachers for each separate subject. When this begins is up to the school district, generally they don't start middle school until 7th grade, but some probably do it even earlier than 6th grade.

Remember when your parents told you they took your dog to a beautiful ranch where he can run and play all day, and never be sick or unhappy?

They lied to you.

Oh God how I wish they had lied! (http://www.theonion.com/articles/fire-consumes-big-happy-farm-where-families-send-s,20641/)

[Aerozord]

Remember when your parents told you they took your dog to a beautiful ranch where he can run and play all day, and never be sick or unhappy?

They lied to you.

no they didn't, they just didn't tell you it was heaven

[Professor Smarmiarty]

As someone who has personally had to substitute in an elementary schools and been given a lesson plan having fifth grade kids do math questions with parentheses and exponents and all of them giving me a blank stare as I asked them "now, do you all remember the order of operations?" and realizing, no, they never learned it, and then desperately trying to teach them PEMDAS in one class period AND have them do their homework, and then later having to teach them the three types of rock for about 40 minutes and draw this crazy flowchart on the board showing how lava and shit turns into igneous rock, but at other stages it can literally be other kinds of rock if it's put under certain kinds of pressure and heat, but sometimes it just turns back into magma, too, and do all this in 40 minutes, and then later give them a "social studies" lesson on fucking Peru or whatever, I can safely say that covering more than three states of matter before high school would be pretty much impossible because of how elementary schools are set up in this country where you have one teacher teaching all subjects, because once they get out of elementary school they're just being introduced to the middle school way of things and I have the feeling middle school teachers tear their hair out over what the elementary school teachers failed to teach them that is required knowledge to learn what the middle school teachers need to teach them.

(BY THE WAY I'M A SECONDARY ENGLISH MAJOR)

EDIT: By the way science textbooks do seem rather interested in dealing with only three of each thing. Three Newtonian laws, three states of matter, three types of rock, etc.


I've had to teach basic maths to university students. Like how to rearrange an equation kind of thing.

[Magus]

See, this is why we need more tech schools and funding for scholarships. Some people just aren't cut out for...algebra, apparently, and it'll at least give them a way out of the wasteland that comes with only a high school diploma. Also, the Japanese method of...14 hour school days. Bring on the cram schools! Just increase suicide counseling, since, you know, Japan has like the highest rate in the world.

[TDK]

See, this is why we need more tech schools and funding for scholarships. Some people just aren't cut out for...algebra, apparently, and it'll at least give them a way out of the wasteland that comes with only a high school diploma.

I'm assuming by 'wasteland' you mean 'most of the jobs in the world'.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

14 hour school days sounds way too long, you can't focus that long.

Also Japanese university isn't heaps better than others- we have a saying in the offie If your paper is from Japan or China check it lots, its probably made up.

[Magus]

I'm assuming by 'wasteland' you mean 'most of the jobs in the world'.

Yes? That was precisely my point. Minimum wage jobs are not the best jobs in the world. In fact they are downright shitty usually. I know I didn't want to work at McDonald's for the rest of my life, I'd shoot my brains out. That job was a literal fucking wasteland, yes. I no longer work there due to having a college degree which I got because I was lucky enough to get grants. Some people don't have good enough grades to get grants to go to a university but could probably get grants to attend a 2 year trade school which would increase their job and career outlook, and their pay, by a wide margin, because they'd have a technical skill that is in demand (welding, carpentry, electric work, etc.) We also need more grant money for university degrees, too, but not everybody can or wants to do academic stuff, they want to do technical stuff.

I'm just not sure why you think focusing on getting more people past a high school degree is a bad thing. With a high school degree the most you are qualified to do is unskilled manual labor, or, if you are lucky enough to have it available, retail work or waiting or something (waiting is paid really shitty and frankly qualifies as manual labor, too, if you ask me). We need to get more people into training programs for technical things, like operating heavy equipment or IT work or mechanical work. We no longer exist in an economy or society where you can work on an assembly line and make a good wage, or hell, even a livable wage, and the same goes for most jobs you can only get with a high school degree. And a lot of people don't even have that, really! A lot of people are lucky to get a GED, there are so many dropouts who don't even get into a GED program and their lives are going to suck and their children's lives are going to quite possibly suck, too, because there is not the demand for unskilled manual labor anymore, and even if there is a demand, unskilled manual labor is pretty shitty. We need to start solving this problem.

If your comment was more about third world countries, I'm still not sure where what I said doesn't apply. There you are just trying to get them to at least a high school degree and get them decent infrastructure, true. What I consider a wasteland would still be better than what they have there. I was talking more about first-world countries, this country in particular. We have a growing minority of unskilled labor with very little job opportunities and very little outlook, it's going to get bigger and bigger if we don't get more money invested into educational/training programs.

[TDK]

My point was that if MOST OF THE JOBS in the world (in America, particularly) do not require college degrees, and presumably these are all jobs that need to be done by virtue of existing, then there isn't room for everyone to have a college degree. And are you implying that all jobs that don't require college degrees are minimum-wage wastelands? Because I'd hazard a guess (that after a bit of research is true) that MOST people don't make minimum wage.

Anecdotal backup: My father did not go to college. He dropped out, in fact, after having a full scholarship. He has never particularly had money issues (and is not particularly smart), and works a fairly skilled, comfortable job that involves zero manual labor and makes him middle class by American fiscal standards. He owns a large house and several acres of land, and has raised four children to adulthood in said house, all of which either graduated college or are currently attending college.

There's barely room for some of the college graduates *now*. Yes, many technical jobs are in demand, but there is a reason there are so few of those people. Its hard, mentally demanding work. Not everyone is cut out to be an electrician or whatever. Most people AREN'T cut out to go to college, either because they aren't qualified (ie: too dumb), they lack the drive, or their interests (not every good job requires a college degree) don't involve a college degree.

I'm all for educating people, and people being good at things (other than smoking weed and eating cheetos, like your average eighteen year old working at mcdonalds), but sending more people to college is not the answer, especially given that if they have a choice, which is a given, about what they go to college FOR, then they will probably not choose something which is in demand. At the very least, it is a crap shoot.

For example: They say college graduates earn X more than the high school graduate's Y per year? That's only if they USE their degree in their job. English majors, art, majors...Most liberal arts majors, really. Have increasing difficulty finding jobs in that field.

To wit: My sister has two degrees - spanish and english - and uses neither of them. She works for a newspaper making ten dollars an hour.

Also, this (http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-question-youre-not-asking-should-you-go-to-college/)

[phil_]

How is, "People don't need to go to college," a statement that follows from, "People should have job training available to them?"

[Aerozord]

I prefer, "go to college and you can get a good job"

[Magus]

Well, I'd hazard a guess your sister's English degree helped her get the job at the newspaper, for example, especially over someone with no degree to put on a resume. Sure it's not a journalism degree but then again that doesn't always make you a good copy editor (for example). I don't know specifically what job your sister has, of course, but if it were between her and someone with no degrees, and presuming they have the same level of experience, that probably helped her get the job she currently has.

As for your father, he sounds like my father. My father dropped out of high school, eventually got his GED, and after working six hundred odd jobs as a dishwasher, waiter, cook, etc., finally made a lot of money in logging, and then eventually running heavy equipment like a bulldozer, rock truck, etc. He was given on the job training over time, and throughout various jobs was also able to raise four kids and buy the farm and put away some money for his retirement.

My main point is that my father and your father are from a somewhat different time when there were a lot more manufacturing jobs, construction jobs, etc. going to people who were given the chance to learn or train on the job because a lot of people trained on the job. Nowadays if someone already has a certificate from a trade school or a degree in this or that or experience in this or that, they are going to get the job over you if you don't have those things. Not everybody can succeed, that's true, it's just good that those who have the ability are given the chance.

Really my main point in creating more grants for technical training was precisely because some people can't succeed in a university environment. They just waste a bunch of money and realize academia isn't for them. Something technical would have been more in their personal interest. That was all I was saying.

[Ecks]

I'd be more worried about her job insofar as the "death of print" is concerned. Sure, it could theoretically be a long way off, given that some parts of the nation are still stuck in the Eighties, but job security for newspapers (not counting the large publications) is a little iffy.

As far as my current job is concerned, no level of trade school or college could have honestly helped much with what I'm doing, other than "hope you were a decent student in mathematics." I happen to have been a very GOOD student in mathematics. When they started inserting shapes and imaginaries and overly complicated formulas that were also somehow shapes was when I started slacking off because I actually had to hurt my brain to think about them.

Language on the other hand... I have kind of a natural knack for. I'm just pissed that my financial aid disappeared when I needed it and now my foreign languages are starting to atrophy from lack of use.