"Conservapedia On Feminism" or "BACK IN THE KITCHEN, WOMAN!"

[Seil]

I know, link post. But it was the best laugh I've had in a while. (http://www.conservapedia.com/Feminism)

Notable bits:

Modern feminists:

shirk traditional gender activities, like baking
often condemn the God-Given order of gender roles, as laid out in the Holy Bible
object to being addressed as "ma'am," or feminine nicknames such as "sweetheart" or "honey"; object to other female-only names, such as "temptress"
pretend that there are no meaningful differences between men and women when that advances liberal causes (e.g., women and men equally in military combat, to weaken the U.S. military), but reject equality when that results in more money to women (e.g., VAWA funding of women's groups)
support of the homosexual agenda

I don't know if this is a joke site, like Christwire, (http://christwire.org/) and I know it's wrong to laugh at a political party just because they're somewhat... behind the times... but it's still a good laugh.

[Viridis]

It's not a joke site. It's serious, but has been so infiltrated by Poes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law) that it might as well be a satire site.

For the best laughs, look up their project to, no shit, rewrite the Bible to better express their views.

Edit: This (http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project). Right here.

[synkr0nized]

Yeah, it's a genuine site.

[Viridis]

Powerful new conservative terms have grown at a geometric rate, roughly doubling every century. For each new conservative term originating in the 1600s,[2] there are two new terms originating in the 1700s, four new terms in the 1800s, and eight new terms in the 1900s, for a pattern of "1-2-4-8". This implies a conservative future and a correlation between conservatism and truth.:raise:

Also the talk page is fantastic and full of discussion on what constitutes a 'conservative' word.

That Essay and this one (http://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:Conservapedia%27s_Law) HAVE to be examples of Poe's Law.

Edit: Nevermind. The creator of the site wrote these. I lose Poe's Law Gambit forever.

[Archbio]

Agitprop.

A conservative term.

Yes.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I just made up 1000 terms for fetishistic latitudinarianism. It is now the new truth.

[BitVyper]

List all of them.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

What are you? Some kind of liberal?

E: Also I'm going to use the conservapedia approach and claim that words fetishisitic latitudinarians tend to use are in fact fetishistic latitudinarian words. Thus the last 1000 words in my posts will do.

[BitVyper]

What are you? Some kind of liberal?

I'm so conservative my computer is powered by illegal immigrants, who I simultaneously condemn and exploit, running in comically oversized hamster wheels.

[Amake]

Eight whole words in just a century? I guess that proves conservatism needs to change to survive as the world changes, and that since it can't develop new words and concepts at the same rate as other, useful ideas, it's in its nature to destroy itself.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

If your site looks like satire it's a safe bet that you shoul start thinking in new directions.

I just always figured that "conservative" is a word for obsolete ideals used by those who hold them. But I also have to say that mainstream conservatism is still... well... a little more balanced. Except in the US, I guess, but I can't really tell.

[Nique]

If your site looks like satire it's a safe bet that you shoul start thinking in new directions.

Well it's the same sort of problem with Fox News or really anywhere you hit that kind of fundamentalist thinking - which is, essentially, that opinion is presented as fact. So if you don't agree with that opinion or, even if you do, are able to spot bad arguments, then yes they are going to look ridiculous.

[Nique]

Also I love the part where they dig up the most 'damning' quotes on feminism they could find to support this totally objective article. I wonder what they have on 'criticisms of right-wing politics'?

[Seil]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/1138740448_JyzWi-L.jpg

[Aerozord]

Eight whole words in just a century? I guess that proves conservatism needs to change to survive as the world changes, and that since it can't develop new words and concepts at the same rate as other, useful ideas, it's in its nature to destroy itself.

wait a second, I think you just made a profound discovery.

Changing and adapting to the world around you to better survive. Thats evolution.

Evolution is a myth, therefore

Conservatism is a myth

[dwmitch]

I'm so conservative my computer is powered by illegal immigrants, who I simultaneously condemn and exploit, running in comically oversized hamster wheels.

That's not conservatism. That's just... well, I can't say it without being vulgar.

I'm as conservative as they come. I make Rush Limbaugh look like a Clinton era liberal. I believe in gender roles, I believe that the only entitlement programs that have any merit are provided by your parents and end when you reach adulthood, and while I don't believe welfare should be done away with entirely I'd like to see it return to its roots where it wasn't just a monthly check. At the beginning welfare was the government providing jobs for those who couldn't otherwise get one.

However, I've looked through Conservapedia and these guys are just plain kooks. Coming from someone who's often called a kook himself that's saying something. The people running this site aren't conservative. Conservatives want to shrink government. These guys want to keep it at its current size, maybe even expand it, only with different policies in place.

[BitVyper]

That's not conservatism. That's just... well, I can't say it without being vulgar.

It's unrealistic, I know. I'd be much better off outsourcing and exploiting people in their own countries. I just really like the hamster wheel.

[Aerozord]

At the beginning welfare was the government providing jobs for those who couldn't otherwise get one.

I could get behind that, I mean wouldn't support it, but makes sense and dont see the harm. Though I'd go with expanding current work programs where they pay part of their wages as they work in another business as a way to get your foot in the door. how I got the steadiest job I ever held.

Ironicly conservatives would never support that though because they'd all cry COMMUNIST.

[BitVyper]

I believe that the only entitlement programs that have any merit are provided by your parents and end when you reach adulthood

What's an entitlement program?

At the beginning welfare was the government providing jobs for those who couldn't otherwise get one.

This isn't true anywhere but the USA, which was pretty late to the game.

[Fifthfiend]

, I believe that the only entitlement programs that have any merit are provided by your parents and end when you reach adulthood

Yeah I hate orphans too

[BitVyper]

Yeah I hate orphans too

They produce nothing and selfishly consume the resources of foster families that could be producing their own children. What's not to hate?

[Nique]

That's not conservatism. That's just... well, I can't say it without being vulgar.

I'm as conservative as they come. I make Rush Limbaugh look like a Clinton era liberal. I believe in gender roles, I believe that the only entitlement programs that have any merit are provided by your parents and end when you reach adulthood, and while I don't believe welfare should be done away with entirely I'd like to see it return to its roots where it wasn't just a monthly check. At the beginning welfare was the government providing jobs for those who couldn't otherwise get one.

However, I've looked through Conservapedia and these guys are just plain kooks. Coming from someone who's often called a kook himself that's saying something. The people running this site aren't conservative. Conservatives want to shrink government. These guys want to keep it at its current size, maybe even expand it, only with different policies in place.

If being a conservative was only about what being a conservative was supposed to be about, you'd probably be right (ha!).

Odds are you aren't "conservative" enough for most "conservatives".

[Viridis]

I simply love that there is a page dedicated to (http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_proven_right) the purpose of Conservapedia fellating itself.

[Nique]

Yeah I hate orphans too

Stop, people are going to think that you're being sarcastic.

[Kim]

Yeah I hate orphans too

Really, Fifth, it's not that we hate orphans, but why should the rest of society be obligated to support them? It's not my fault they're orphans. I've got my own family to support, too. I'm sure there are plenty of charities out there perfectly willing to let people choose to help these poor children, which would be getting a lot more in donations from our nation's job creators if we further lowered the income tax rate.

[dwmitch]

I could get behind that, I mean wouldn't support it, but makes sense and dont see the harm. Though I'd go with expanding current work programs where they pay part of their wages as they work in another business as a way to get your foot in the door. how I got the steadiest job I ever held.

Ironicly conservatives would never support that though because they'd all cry COMMUNIST.

I didn't know there were still any programs like that. I thought welfare had degenerated into people sitting around waiting for the check to arrive.

Back in the day that was the only source of welfare. Men would sign up, go on a waiting list, work on a project for a few months (in fact, my grandpa was on welfare but he worked for every penny the government gave him building bridges), then they'd go back to the waiting list and work another project. This wasn't the minimum wage/2 system in place today, either. The wages earned from this program were enough to last while they were back on the waiting list.

I don't know a single conservative who would cry "socialism" on that. My grandpa was a bigger conservative than I am and he was in that program.

Conservatives don't have a problem with giving a man a fishing pole and directions to a well stocked lake. What we have a problem with is when the government pulls the fish off of our lines to give to people who won't get off their couch who act like they deserve the fish as much or more than the person that caught it.

Basically what it boils down to is liberal compassion vs. conservative compassion. Liberal compassion gives you a few cans of tuna each month. The problem is, if next month's cans are late getting there they do without for a little, plus not everyone likes tuna.

Conservative compassion teaches people how to stock their freezer with any sort of fish they want. Can't walk to the shoreline? We'll carry you. Can't be out in the sun? We'll give you a fillet knife, bring our catch to your kitchen, and you can keep a fair portion of what you clean.

In other words, contrary to popular opinion we don't hate the poor. We want them to succeed. If there are more applicants than job openings we want to teach them how to use their skills to get by. We want them to have their fill of salmon, mackerel, whatever they want instead of waiting on cans of tuna. What we hate is the "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" mentality. People who won't lift a finger to help themselves and feel like they deserve things they refuse to work for.

A lot of people think it's easy for a well to do fat cat to feel this way, but this is coming from a man who literally only has $1.48 to his name. $1.20 in my pocket and $0.24 in the bank. I get my bills paid, keep food on the table, I can even afford the luxury of high speed internet.

Now you may be wondering what line of work I'm in. None. I've been unemployed for two years. Drew unemployment for one month. How do I get by? I use the skills I have. I tune pianos. I sell scrap metal. When I can't find any legally accessible junk piles or any pianos to tune I do light plumbing (as in everything up to the well, anything dealing with the pump requires a crew), flip items at auctions, and manufacture bodhrans (a type of frame drum). Add to that the fact that I'm expanding into music (the production end) and software. Even if I only sell three tracks and two copies of a program that's still better than I started out with.

And other than one month of unemployment, which quickly burned up in my gas tank during my job search, I did it all without suckling at the government's teat. I only have $1.48 now, but in two weeks I'll have enough to pay my bills, buy groceries, and maybe even take an attractive young lady on a date if she's willing. Not because my check comes, but because I have three customers for my tuning business, after tomorrow's plumbing job I'll have enough copper to take to the recycling center (with my customer's consent, of course. They want to get rid of the copper and go with plastic, which is more durable), and the wood will be properly cured for my next bodhran. That's not even factoring in the debate on whether or not I want to work the auction circuit this month.

I could have gone the route a lot of people seem to be going. Draw unemployment until it runs out then sign up for welfare programs. But instead I'm using what I have available to provide for myself (and my gluttonous feline friend I have living with me.)

I didn't go through any extensive training for it, either. When I started tuning pianos all I knew was how to get to the strings. I didn't know how much the slightest movement would raise or lower the pitch of a string. When I started plumbing I didn't know the difference between pipe dope and pipe cement. I thought it was just a dialect thing. When I started making my first bodhran I didn't know how to bend wood. Experimentation, a trip to Lowe's to browse the appropriate section, and The Woodwright's Shop on PBS. Online tutorials for software development and the music theory learned in high school, supplemented with online materials, for the music.

"But a lot of people can't afford the internet." All I do that relies on the internet are the things that aren't currently helping me get by. Now obviously you can't sell music or software online if you can't get online, but everyone has a skill set they can use to earn a living. If you can glue two pieces of pipe together you can do plumbing, for example. Unless a person has a medical condition that prevents doing anything (and as my heart can give out at any moment, it needs to be more dire than a heart condition) there's really no reason for an able bodied person to rely on welfare for 100% of their needs. Maybe food stamps if they have children and can't drum up enough business to keep them fed, but there's really no excuse for able bodied people to sit around waiting for a check every month.

By the way, I'm aware that there's a possibility I'm generalizing toward the end, but I'm going by what I've seen from my neighbors, a lot of my cousins, even a family I almost married into. Able bodied people sitting around waiting for a check. There are people who legitimately should be on welfare, but you can't tell it by the welfare cases in my neck of the woods.

[Marc v4.0]

I didn't know there were still any programs like that. I thought welfare had degenerated into people sitting around waiting for the check to arrive.

Back in the day that was the only source of welfare. Men would sign up, go on a waiting list, work on a project for a few months (in fact, my grandpa was on welfare but he worked for every penny the government gave him building bridges), then they'd go back to the waiting list and work another project. This wasn't the minimum wage/2 system in place today, either. The wages earned from this program were enough to last while they were back on the waiting list.

I don't know a single conservative who would cry "socialism" on that. My grandpa was a bigger conservative than I am and he was in that program.

Conservatives don't have a problem with giving a man a fishing pole and directions to a well stocked lake. What we have a problem with is when the government pulls the fish off of our lines to give to people who won't get off their couch who act like they deserve the fish as much or more than the person that caught it.

Basically what it boils down to is liberal compassion vs. conservative compassion. Liberal compassion gives you a few cans of tuna each month. The problem is, if next month's cans are late getting there they do without for a little, plus not everyone likes tuna.

Conservative compassion teaches people how to stock their freezer with any sort of fish they want. Can't walk to the shoreline? We'll carry you. Can't be out in the sun? We'll give you a fillet knife, bring our catch to your kitchen, and you can keep a fair portion of what you clean.

In other words, contrary to popular opinion we don't hate the poor. We want them to succeed. If there are more applicants than job openings we want to teach them how to use their skills to get by. We want them to have their fill of salmon, mackerel, whatever they want instead of waiting on cans of tuna. What we hate is the "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" mentality. People who won't lift a finger to help themselves and feel like they deserve things they refuse to work for.

A lot of people think it's easy for a well to do fat cat to feel this way, but this is coming from a man who literally only has $1.48 to his name. $1.20 in my pocket and $0.24 in the bank. I get my bills paid, keep food on the table, I can even afford the luxury of high speed internet.

Now you may be wondering what line of work I'm in. None. I've been unemployed for two years. Drew unemployment for one month. How do I get by? I use the skills I have. I tune pianos. I sell scrap metal. When I can't find any legally accessible junk piles or any pianos to tune I do light plumbing (as in everything up to the well, anything dealing with the pump requires a crew), flip items at auctions, and manufacture bodhrans (a type of frame drum). Add to that the fact that I'm expanding into music (the production end) and software. Even if I only sell three tracks and two copies of a program that's still better than I started out with.

And other than one month of unemployment, which quickly burned up in my gas tank during my job search, I did it all without suckling at the government's teat. I only have $1.48 now, but in two weeks I'll have enough to pay my bills, buy groceries, and maybe even take an attractive young lady on a date if she's willing. Not because my check comes, but because I have three customers for my tuning business, after tomorrow's plumbing job I'll have enough copper to take to the recycling center (with my customer's consent, of course. They want to get rid of the copper and go with plastic, which is more durable), and the wood will be properly cured for my next bodhran. That's not even factoring in the debate on whether or not I want to work the auction circuit this month.

I could have gone the route a lot of people seem to be going. Draw unemployment until it runs out then sign up for welfare programs. But instead I'm using what I have available to provide for myself (and my gluttonous feline friend I have living with me.)

I didn't go through any extensive training for it, either. When I started tuning pianos all I knew was how to get to the strings. I didn't know how much the slightest movement would raise or lower the pitch of a string. When I started plumbing I didn't know the difference between pipe dope and pipe cement. I thought it was just a dialect thing. When I started making my first bodhran I didn't know how to bend wood. Experimentation, a trip to Lowe's to browse the appropriate section, and The Woodwright's Shop on PBS. Online tutorials for software development and the music theory learned in high school, supplemented with online materials, for the music.

"But a lot of people can't afford the internet." All I do that relies on the internet are the things that aren't currently helping me get by. Now obviously you can't sell music or software online if you can't get online, but everyone has a skill set they can use to earn a living. If you can glue two pieces of pipe together you can do plumbing, for example. Unless a person has a medical condition that prevents doing anything (and as my heart can give out at any moment, it needs to be more dire than a heart condition) there's really no reason for an able bodied person to rely on welfare for 100% of their needs. Maybe food stamps if they have children and can't drum up enough business to keep them fed, but there's really no excuse for able bodied people to sit around waiting for a check every month.

By the way, I'm aware that there's a possibility I'm generalizing toward the end, but I'm going by what I've seen from my neighbors, a lot of my cousins, even a family I almost married into. Able bodied people sitting around waiting for a check. There are people who legitimately should be on welfare, but you can't tell it by the welfare cases in my neck of the woods.

I find myself seriously wishing that this actually was the driving line of Conservatives in American politcs. Minus the Gender roles, cause fuck those things.

Unfortunatly, the Conservative Representatives in American Politics only SAY that's what they want, and as soon as people vote them in they grab a chair and settle on up to the honeyed teet of whatever businesses happen to be showing them off at the time.

[dwmitch]

Yeah I hate orphans too

In this day and age you don't see many orphans in the street unless they're runaways. If a single mother dies during childbirth there are people to take care of that child (for all intents and purposes they become that child's parents).

When older children become orphans if they don't have aunts, uncles, adult cousins, adult siblings, grandparents, any other relative I may be leaving out they're still provided for.

If you see homeless children they're usually with their homeless parents or they've run away from home. And even then if they don't keep under the radar they're usually put into foster care.

[dwmitch]

I find myself seriously wishing that this actually was the driving line of Conservatives in American politcs.

Unfortunatly, the Conservative Representatives in American Politics only SAY that's what they want, and as soon as people vote them in they grab a chair and settle on up to the honeyed teet of whatever businesses happen to be showing them off at the time.

Republican does not mean conservative. We have numerous republican representatives. We have very few conservative representatives. A lot of people think Bush was a conservative president. He wasn't. He was a republican president. I voted for him because at the time he was the lesser of two evils, but I hung my head in regret many a time during his eight years comforting myself with that "he was the lesser of two evils" line.

The few conservatives who are in Congress are too outnumbered to get anything done. What was called a RINO (Republican In Name Only) ten years ago is now the typical republican, which can't be differentiated from a moderate democrat.

Instead of having the four major factions represented (conservative republicans, moderate republicans, liberal democrats, moderate democrats) it's only two. Moderates from both sides have essentially merged leaving moderate republicrats and liberal democrats, with a few conservative republicans being drowned out by the shouting.

[Marc v4.0]

You seem well-meaning and intelligent, I would ask of you what would be done about those honestly not of 'able-body' in the system? Your thoughts on how they should be cared for or assisted.

edit: To your above response, yes it might be very fair to say this is how it really is going down. I wouldn't be surprised either way, really, and maybe my time in our more political-centric threads has colored me a bit cynical that no good men and women are left in the system.

[Fifthfiend]

In this day and age you don't see many orphans in the street unless they're runaways. If a single mother dies during childbirth there are people to take care of that child (for all intents and purposes they become that child's parents).

When older children become orphans if they don't have aunts, uncles, adult cousins, adult siblings, grandparents, any other relative I may be leaving out they're still provided for.

If you see homeless children they're usually with their homeless parents or they've run away from home. And even then if they don't keep under the radar they're usually put into foster care.

And we all know that nobody who's ever gone through the foster care system has ever had any difficulties worth speaking of.

[Fifthfiend]

, I believe that the only entitlement programs that have any merit are provided by your parents and end when you reach adulthood

You know who else I hate?

People with fartz parents.

Fuck those guys, am I right?

[Kim]

there's really no excuse for able bodied people to sit around waiting for a check every month.

Yeah. You're a perfect example of if one person in a bad situation can find ways to get by, then anyone can. Liberals seem to think they're helping people, but they're really keeping people from living up to their full potential.

[Marc v4.0]

Oh, good lord -_-

[Betty Elms]

The few conservatives who are in Congress are too outnumbered to get anything done. What was called a RINO (Republican In Name Only) ten years ago is now the typical republican, which can't be differentiated from a moderate democrat.
oh my god please don't stop

[Betty Elms]

but yeah i guess you have a point. As they say, give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Tell a man to go fish for himself and not give him any sort of fishing equipment and only a poorly funded and structured rudimentary fishing education while also creating a situation in which he lives no where near any substantial body of water and he eats for a lifetime.

[Azisien]

Every post after Marc's question is awful, but I can't help myself:

but yeah i guess you have a point. As they say, give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Tell a man to go fish for himself and not give him any sort of fishing equipment and only a poorly funded and structured rudimentary fishing education while also creating a situation in which he lives no where near any substantial body of water and he eats for a lifetime.

Oops, BP spilled some oil. Have fun fishing!

[Archbio]

How do I get by? I use the skills I have. I tune pianos. I sell scrap metal. When I can't find any legally accessible junk piles or any pianos to tune I do light plumbing (as in everything up to the well, anything dealing with the pump requires a crew), flip items at auctions, and manufacture bodhrans (a type of frame drum). Add to that the fact that I'm expanding into music (the production end) and software.

And not only does everyone have the ressourcefulness and aptitude to have a good quality of life by employing themselves this way, but there's also enough of that kind of work for every. Single. Unemployed person to properly live off of.

And we know this because it wouldn't really be convenient if it wasn't true.

[Kim]

Why is everyone dogpiling on dwmitch like this? This hardly seems fair. I know a lot of you are liberals, but that doesn't mean you have to be rude to someone just for having a different philosophy from you.

[Fifthfiend]

I don't know a single conservative who would cry "socialism" on that.

So dwmitch.

What are your thoughts on the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I simply love that there is a page dedicated to (http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_proven_right) the purpose of Conservapedia fellating itself.

this is the best. Man I can't eve get past the first one. I'm tots sure all them liberals saw Henry Kissinger as a just, non-political recipient of the peace prize.

[dwmitch]

Yeah. You're a perfect example of if one person in a bad situation can find ways to get by, then anyone can. Liberals seem to think they're helping people, but they're really keeping people from living up to their full potential.

You got that right. I know how to do very few things (got a wood stove going unused every winter because I don't know how to build a fire (never can keep the kindling lit) for example), I get absolutely no support because everyone around me thinks I do the things I do to avoid steady work (neglecting the fact that these things are in addition to my job search), and to top it off an incredibly messed up jaw results in speech issues that tend to lead people to believe that I'm mentally challenged.

So this really is a case of if I can do it anyone can do it.

The rest of the replies I'll get to later today. Gotta get back to bed, steel my nerves to finally ask out the young lady I've been trying to approach since June, and spend the day digging up and laying pipes.

[Aerozord]

I didn't know there were still any programs like that. I thought welfare had degenerated into people sitting around waiting for the check to arrive.

Its not welfare, I'm a white male without a kid, welfare wont do crap for me. But the state views aspergers as a disability, and that department does have job placement programs. They also have programs to help with education, etc. Though only if you work for it, if you try to use it as a free ride you get dropped

to me there are two main issues with welfare. First is that its based more on what demographics you fall under then actual need.

Second is that it discourages work. I went with a friend, who had a baby to support, was scraping was rationing money to buy formula, and do you know why she was denied any financial support, because she was working.

Any income at all often drops your financial aid to zero, depending on the county, even if that income is not enough to support you. There are people on welfare that want to work, but because of how the system is set up cant "afford" to work.

[Osterbaum]

Ok, dwmitch is not real. Calling it right now.

e: Gotta get back to bed, steel my nerves to finally ask out the young lady I've been trying to approach since June, and spend the day digging up and laying pipes.
I mean come on!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Copper trading is an important and thoroughly upright profession and just because you spend all day making up job descriptions for yourself to justify stealing our money to fund your potsmoking "exploration of yourself" doesn't give you the right to impugn the intergrity of an honest working man.

[Sifright]

Its not welfare, I'm a white male without a kid, welfare wont do crap for me. But the state views aspergers as a disability, and that department does have job placement programs. They also have programs to help with education, etc. Though only if you work for it, if you try to use it as a free ride you get dropped

to me there are two main issues with welfare. First is that its based more on what demographics you fall under then actual need.

Second is that it discourages work. I went with a friend, who had a baby to support, was scraping was rationing money to buy formula, and do you know why she was denied any financial support, because she was working.

Any income at all often drops your financial aid to zero, depending on the county, even if that income is not enough to support you. There are people on welfare that want to work, but because of how the system is set up cant "afford" to work.

Well the obvious solution here to simply remove welfare support, that way those lazy lay abouts can't simply stay on welfare because it's that or lose support seems simple enough, only a lieberal would think the current system is working.


In other words, contrary to popular opinion we don't hate the poor. We want them to succeed. If there are more applicants than job openings we want to teach them how to use their skills to get by. We want them to have their fill of salmon, mackerel, whatever they want instead of waiting on cans of tuna. What we hate is the "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" mentality. People who won't lift a finger to help themselves and feel like they deserve things they refuse to work for.

Damn straight, preach it brother we need to get those lazy bums off welfare god knows there are plenty of jobs out there for real hard working americans it's just lazyness holding them back. I had to work oddjobs my self repairing damaged electronics before I got my self a job. The only reason people are poor is because they are lazy and don't want to do an honest days work.

[dwmitch]

Ok, dwmitch is not real. Calling it right now.

e:
I mean come one!

Copper trading is an important and thoroughly upright profession and just because you spend all day making up job descriptions for yourself to justify stealing our money to fund your potsmoking "exploration of yourself" doesn't give you the right to impugn the intergrity of an honest working man.

I'm hoping you guys were joking but now that I see how my last statement can be misread I'll break it down.

"...back to bed,"

Most of my posts here have been during a bout of insomnia. Been trying to get to sleep since 10:00 PM, it's 4:30 AM now, so I've been up and down all night.

"...steel my nerves to finally ask out..."

Been trying to work up the nerve to ask a young lady on a date, obviously. She's had my interest since June but she's quitting her job at the end of this week so I can't take the time to test the water and make sure I won't be shot down in front of my cousins (who are regulars at the store she works at and would never let me live it down). Since I don't want to go in as a nervous wreck I need to build up my nerve, which is normally done during a walk through the woods so I can clear my mind and plan everything out, but I had to settle for bedtime tonight because people look at you strange if you go out wandering at night.

"...spend the day digging up and laying pipes."

Self explanatory. The people I'll be working for today have a busted water line. They want to take the opportunity to take out the copper lines coming out of their pressure tank, which is relatively fragile by today's standards, and install vinyl water lines.

By the way, I wish copper was a viable venture. It's the highest selling scrap, at least in this area, but it's the hardest to get. I've been stockpiling bits and pieces over the past year that I've pulled out of discarded air conditioners and days like this are very rare. In fact, other than the cost of parts I'm not getting paid any money for this. Just any copper I pull out of the ground for them.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

As it should be. Money merely seperates men from the fruits of their work and enables our ruinous financial system to enfranchise wastage.

[Amake]

I believe in gender rolesI have to stop skimming threads backwards, I had to scroll through a whole bunch of your posts before noticing why I should dismiss them completely without a second thought. Anyway, here (http://thehathorlegacy.com/see-this-is-why-gender-essentialism-is-essentially-sexist/) is a decent place to start. If you want to lean.

[dwmitch]

Its not welfare, I'm a white male without a kid, welfare wont do crap for me. But the state views aspergers as a disability, and that department does have job placement programs. They also have programs to help with education, etc. Though only if you work for it, if you try to use it as a free ride you get dropped

to me there are two main issues with welfare. First is that its based more on what demographics you fall under then actual need.

Second is that it discourages work. I went with a friend, who had a baby to support, was scraping was rationing money to buy formula, and do you know why she was denied any financial support, because she was working.

Any income at all often drops your financial aid to zero, depending on the county, even if that income is not enough to support you. There are people on welfare that want to work, but because of how the system is set up cant "afford" to work.

The whole system's broken. It goes to people who don't need it (I actually knew a guy who was on welfare because he was "too angry to work") and people who do need it have to fight tooth and nail if they even get it. Got a cousin with lupus who had to be talked out of going back to work. The doctors wouldn't clear her and, for her own good, her previous employer blacklisted her from the only line of work she knows. We had to fight her to get her to sign up and now we're having to fight the government so her deathbed isn't a ditch somewhere.

And when my grandmother was dying from cancer my mom and aunts tried to get her assistance for respiratory treatments she needed. The case worker asked how she kept her house clean, she said her daughters did most of it but to keep from feeling useless she'd sweep her room once a week. He just said "then you can earn the money sweeping for other people" and left.

So one guy who refuses to take a butt chewing like a man (in his words, "if my boss gets onto me I'm going to take a swing at him") gets a free ride. One woman who worked hard her entire life was turned down because she spent ten minutes a week sweeping and another woman who worked hard all of her life and only signed up as a last resort is having to fight.

That's the biggest problem with the current system. They make a hangman's noose out of red tape for people with a legitimate claim then some burnt out old hippie comes along using his temper as an excuse not to work and they wave him on through.

The one thing that worked they went and broke. In 1981 a couple working full time (in fact, when my mother went off of maternity leave she took a part-time night job at the local tourist trap in addition to her factory job) with three sons, one a newborn, was able to get on food stamps for half a year. Now, as your friend's situation shows, if you have the audacity to try to earn your keep you can't get one bit of assistance.

Same with training. If I were on welfare I could take free classes to become an auto technician. Since I'm not my only option is to give up all of the things that keep gas in my truck to drive two hours one way, and that's assuming I can get a student loan. Seems like they'd be thrilled to have a cheap guy like me. After all, they'd only be paying for my training, not my living expenses, and that training would be paid back when I earned enough to pay taxes. Instead it's either let the taxpayers provide everything for you or you get nothing.

You seem well-meaning and intelligent, I would ask of you what would be done about those honestly not of 'able-body' in the system? Your thoughts on how they should be cared for or assisted.

They need to know there are options. People think if they have a disability they have no choice but to go on disability for the rest of their lives. It can be useful for an adjustment period, but it's not required for the rest of their lives if they don't want it.

Two people I find to be inspiring are both quadriplegics. One is Joni Earecson Tada (pronounced Johnny Erickson Ta-da). Even if you hate her for running a Christian ministry you can't deny that she's been working despite her handicap. She's been a quadriplegic since 1967 but she's been going non-stop reaching out to the disabled and donating wheelchairs to developing nations.

The other one was one of my matches on a dating site. Because of the distance (two hours one way) I haven't established contact with her but I have looked at her profile. A wreck paralyzed her a little over ten years ago. I don't know her full story, she could be on disability now and I don't begrudge her that, but she's also a full time college student hoping to go into education.

It may sound like I'm making a big deal out of these women but I have known paraplegics who didn't have the gumption of these women. When one of my cousins was paralyzed in a wreck he just waited for his check and for the reaper. I didn't know him too well but I've been told he was always playing the guitar up until his wreck. Then, even though he still had full use of his hands, he never picked it up after that. Just stared at the wall, barely talked to anyone, and was more or less a piece of furniture until cancer came about and claimed him.

Sadly a lot of people with a disability, unless it's one they've had their entire life, take the route my cousin did. Act like their life is over and wait for the reaper to come and make it official. And the system doesn't help. They make it sound like it's guaranteed death if you don't go on disability or come from a rich family. They make it sound like you will never contribute anything again.

So at the risk of sounding calloused, ideally the disabled would be taken care of by willing members of the private sector but since that's not currently viable nothing should change for them other than programs to help those who want off of disability earn a living on their own.

And we all know that nobody who's ever gone through the foster care system has ever had any difficulties worth speaking of.

Exactly. Just like no one who was raised by their birth parents had any problems worth speaking of.

Sarcasm aside, that comment needs to be expanded on as right now it seems like a bit of a non-sequitur.

And not only does everyone have the ressourcefulness and aptitude to have a good quality of life by employing themselves this way, but there's also enough of that kind of work for every. Single. Unemployed person to properly live off of.

And we know this because it wouldn't really be convenient if it wasn't true.

It's all in the mindset. I was like that not too long ago. "Sure, I have more education than Edison but he had the resourcefulness to get things done." That's what holds people back. They don't even try because they think they have nothing to offer.

I've been tuning pianos for two years. This isn't my first bout of unemployment, though it is my longest, and during one of those bouts I had the idea to start tuning pianos. But I held myself back. "Everyone around here is the DIY type. If they want them tuned they wouldn't hire me." "Most pianos around here are just decorations or they only keep them because it was passed down by their parents or grandparents."

Since then I've expanded into plumbing. Why? Because I know how to do it. I didn't when I started, and that lack of knowledge, combined with the fact that I'm not even so much as an apprentice, held me back for quite some time.

I learned how to make bodhrans because I wanted one but they're hard to come by. Then I noticed that here in my neck of the woods there are a lot of musicians who would like to have one but don't have $400 to spend on a low quality one with no warranty. So I kept making them and sell them for a fraction of what it would cost elsewhere.

That wasn't resourcefulness. That was the marriage of desire and a rather pessimistic view that I would never be able to buy the drum I've spent years searching for.

So it all boils down to mindset. Should everyone on the dole become a piano tuner or plumber? If they know how to do it then by all means yes. However, those aren't the only marketable skills. The market around here isn't becoming crowded because not a lot of people are willing to mess with pipes that excrement flows through for a flat rate of $25 plus parts. Too many plumbers in your area? Sit down, take stock of what you know, and find a way to apply your knowledge in an area where there's not as much competition.

Really the things that seem arcane to most are incredibly simple to learn as long as the things you're doing are safe. For instance, you may know how to hammer boards together but if you're not under the supervision of a master carpenter you have no business adding a room onto someone's house. But you can still turn that ability to hammer boards together into a marketable skill. Just not one that runs the risk of dropping a roof on someone's head.

Bottom line, if you're of the mindset that you have nothing to offer then you have nothing to offer. If you really do have nothing to offer then it's a trivial matter to come up with something to offer. Or people can just sit around on the dole wasting away because trying something when at best you succeed, at worst you don't gain anything is too much effort.

So dwmitch.

What are your thoughts on the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?

To be honest my familiarity with it comes from political commentary (both sides plus a local radio talk show that claims to be completely neutral), which we both know is full of distortions, so I'll have to get back to you on that once I've found the text of the bill and familiarized myself on it.

Right now anything I have to say would be based on what I know from Limbaugh, Huffington, and some guy you've never heard of unless you happen to live in central Missouri. I'd rather have more to go on before I discuss it.

[Kim]

Thanks for sharing, dwmitch! Anecdotal evidence is the best kind of evidence, because it lets you see how these things affect average people like you and me. :)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Man I want to live in the magical land that dwmitch lives in. It sounds sweet.

[Melfice]

I wasn't feeling well in the first place.
Now I have a headache from reading just a small bit of Conservapedia.

Maybe there's no actual correlation between reading it and getting a headache, but since the Conservapedia can make up correlations, so can I.

[Osterbaum]

I'm hoping you guys were joking but now that I see how my last statement can be misread I'll break it down.
I was indeed joking. It's just the way you phrased that sentence I quoted in my previous post.

Anecdotal evidence is the best kind of evidence[...]
Take note of this bit of sarcasm dwmitch, because right now all you're giving us is your opinion backed up by anecdotal evidence and nothing more. Anecdotal evidence simply isn't enough to convince anyone but yourself.

Man I want to live in the magical land that dwmitch lives in. It sounds sweet.
I feel like you've said that before.

[Sithdarth]

Man this thread is a love letter to Poe's Law. Like I want to say something but I just can't convince myself it isn't going to cause a fight.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I feel like you've said that before.

When you dudes start coming up with new arguments I'll start coming up with new responses.

[Betty Elms]

So this really is a case of if I can do it anyone can do it.
Do what, not die?

Like even putting aside the fact that no your personal life isn't a remotely sound basis for determining how the entirety of a world which contains in excess of 7 billion people works, I'd think you could probably raise your standards as to what constitutes "doing it."

AWWW YEAAAH, ANOTHER DAY WITHOUT STARVING TO DEATH. DID I JUST GO ALL FUCKIN INCEPTION ON LADY LIBERTY? BECAUSE I AM LIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Have you solved the (one of the many) great dilemma(s) of utilitarianism? Can you give us the magical equation of happiness?
I thought not. Definining "did not die" and "died" is objective, it is rational, it is inarguable and thus is the ultimate measure of achievement.

[Sifright]

Today I did not die, (so far) thus I am fulfilled.

[Betty Elms]

Have you solved the (one of the many) great dilemma(s) of utilitarianism? Can you give us the magical equation of happiness?
I measure it in fucks per hour.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well that showed me.
Man I've been going about life all wrong.

[Azisien]

I measure it in fucks per hour.

I believe it is World AIDs Day everyone. Safety first!

[Amake]

Does metaphorical fucks count too? Like, if you give fifty fucks an hour about something, no matter what, you probably lead a very lively life.

[MSperoni]

I'm just curious how someone like dwmitch even found themselves on this site. I mean, it's not exactly ultra-Conservative haven, and it's not like any of the comics posted preach right-wing messages. Unless they do. And if they do I really hope it isn't mine...

I mean...what is there to POSSIBLY appeal to you here? The sexy and always witty NPForumites?

Not that I want anyone to leave or feel alienated...but...It just makes me curious...


Does metaphorical fucks count too? Like, if you give fifty fucks an hour about something, no matter what, you probably lead a very lively life.

Metaphorical Fucks are called Metafornication!

[Melfice]

Well, obviously, Kit hasn't had sex in the comic yet. That's promoting abstinence, of course.

And then, when she boozed up to recharge the Dreadful, the plan backfired and she shot lightning out of her mouth. That's promoting moderation with alcohol, or even teetotalling.

Yeah, your comic's all about conservatism, man.

(Whatever. I've still got that headache. They can't all be good)

[Nikose Tyris]

what about hours spent sleeping? Do I need to perform catch-up fucks in order to maintain the 6 hours sleeping, or would those be discounted?

If I had multiple sexual partners at the same time, do those count as extra fucks given? For instance, if I had 6 four-ways throughout the day, would I be clear for all 18 hours of the day? [yes, 4 ways, as I would be involved, and there would be 3 actual fucks involved among the 4 people].

Also, would I need different partners for each fuck, or would I be able to maintain the same pattern of sexual couplings within the 4 way?

[MSperoni]

Yeah, your comic's all about conservatism, man.

Yeah, and the comic is totes about the Gender Roles. I take my gender roles with butter and jam, please.

[Loyal]

We have over fifty lurkers at a given moment. It's 10 AM on a Thursday and we've got like 89 guests. It's probable that he's been here awhile and only recently decided he had something he wanted to register over.

Which I suppose just reiterates the question of what people find so charming about us because damn. Sign up, people!

[Betty Elms]

I'm just curious how someone like dwmitch even found themselves on this site. I mean, it's not exactly ultra-Conservative haven, and it's not like any of the comics posted preach right-wing messages. Unless they do. And if they do I really hope it isn't mine...
I don't really think the message dwmitch receives from this thread should be "WE DON'T WANT YOUR KIND HERE." Like, this is a pretty nifty place and they could potentially have a grand time, s/he should just realize that s/he'll need to brace him or herself for disembowelment before participating in any political discussion.

[MSperoni]

I wouldn't wanna be around you assholes if I disagreed with you.

But...maybe one can find entertainment in something one is at odds with politically. It's not like any of the comics here hammer on the issues, though I guess mine sorta gives the finger to the notion of gender roles (which is fitting for me, as I give the finger to that every day. I typically give the finger to all sorts of abstract concepts).

"WE DON'T WANT YOUR KIND HERE." .

Anyone else read that line as if it was said by the bartender in Mos Eisley?

Anywho, I wasn't trying to come across like that. I was just curious. I don't need an answer either, someone's reason for being here is their own. Maybe they just wanna be a voice for the opposite end of the spectrum. Whatevs!

[CABAL49]

C'est la Vie

And I can provide just as much anecdotal evidence of how the system works. The Leftist Ideology is not about handing out a bunch of things to poor people, but merely that they have the tools to succeed in life. While your ideas do sound nice, in practice they lead to little more than poverty, lack of education and egotism.

But you should know that the subject of "entitlement programs" is a touchy subject for me, as I owe myself to them.

[Melfice]

Yeah, and the comic is totes about the Gender Roles. I take my gender roles with butter and jam, please.

Naturally it is about gender roles.
See, Kit, Jeanne, Liz... they're all not very nice people, in varying degrees. They're also very independent women.
A strong, independent woman is just a recipe for evil, that tells me.
Women should, thus, be tied to a man to lead her to good.

Eventually, I figure every one of them will meet their man and be led into the light or they will die due to them being evil and not besides their man.

(holy shit... it actually makes sense in some way. I'm scared of myself. Somebody hold me!)

[MSperoni]

Hush! You're giving away spoilers!

[Seil]

Leave the dude (or dudette) alone. Let him lean as right as he wants, 'cause I know where you guys lean, and it isn't pretty.

I'm talking about you leaning towards a preference to gay sex.

Because the "leaning" bit also works that way.

Like your junk.

[Sifright]

Leave the dude (or dudette) alone. Let him lean as right as he wants, 'cause I know where you guys lean, and it isn't pretty.

I'm talking about you leaning towards a preference to gay sex.

Because the "leaning" bit also works that way.

Like your junk.

Man Seil posts are pretty terrible.

[Seil]

I could probably pull up a few posts from people who said the same thing back in 2010. Get with the times, sir!

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I still have no fucking idea what a Seilpost is. All posts of you people look the same to me.

[Geminex]

Seilposts are pink.

[Gregness]

It's really more of a salmon.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I make no difference between a white post and a colored post.

[Osterbaum]

Political correctness gone mad!

[Aerozord]

Take note of this bit of sarcasm dwmitch, because right now all you're giving us is your opinion backed up by anecdotal evidence and nothing more.

to be fair we have had entire threads in the news and current events forum based on this. Yea its shoddy argument, but not like there isn't reason to think this kind of thing would fly on the forum

[Seil]

Really? Anecdotal? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEOOFanQms0&feature=s2l&t=5m10s) I think we're better than that.

[Kim]

Take note of this bit of sarcasm dwmitch

No sarcasm was intended. These examples from real people living their lives and getting by are much more meaningful than mere numbers or statistics could ever be. You can't measure dedication and hard work. You can measure a man's ability to pick himself up by his bootstraps. Anecdotes are the only real way to show what life is like for the working man. Everything else is just liberal elitism obscuring the truth.

[Solid Snake]

No sarcasm was intended. These examples from real people living their lives and getting by are much more meaningful than mere numbers or statistics could ever be. You can't measure dedication and hard work. You can measure a man's ability to pick himself up by his bootstraps. Anecdotes are the only real way to show what life is like for the working man. Everything else is just liberal elitism obscuring the truth.

I have to say, Liz, that I'm really very proud of you.

You see when I met Liz she was as stubborn a liberal democrat as they came. (...You'd never guess that now based on her posting habits!) She argued in favor of gay marriage, was strongly in favor of abortion rights for women, railed against the Iraq War, blasted tax cuts and supported spending hikes, had no faith in the value of private corporations, and you couldn't even start talking about Guantanamo Bay before she'd run her mouth over how 'evil' torture was.

...But then she met me, a strong-willed, perceptive conservative who had his shit together.

And so Liz slowly but surely became attuned to the truth, and gradually she began to re-affiliate herself as a conservative Republican. It took several victories in debates and many angry conversations to get her there! But now she's a huge fan of Limbaugh, Hannity and Glenn Beck. She's supporting Gingrich and I favor Romney in these primaries, but in the end, we both agree that Barack Hussein Obama has got to go.

(And honestly I'm still kind of skeptical of the possibility that she's pretending to be conservative because she has a huge crush on me and just wants to impress me? At least, that's what Fifthfiend has gone on record with believing, but honestly Fifth may have an agenda because he and Liz used to be really close back when she identified as a liberal Democrat.)

...But, long story short: Welcome to NPF, fellow Conservative! I'm glad to see you here, we're in the minority but we're good people. Just stick with Liz and I and we'll bail you out once Fifthfiend and Betty Elms inevitably start going after you for daring to believe in your own self-sufficiency and independence from strong-armed government intervention.

[Azisien]

NPF needs a Hell subforum and people need to get banned everywhere except there.

[MSperoni]

...


And so Liz slowly but surely became attuned to the truth....

That's "Truth" Snake.

Capital T.

Liz is slowly turning me into a hardcore conservative. Why, just the other day I made a list detailing the Gay Agenda. It involves a lot of cheese.

[Archbio]

"Sure, I have more education than Edison but he had the resourcefulness to get things done."

If by ressourcefulness you mean "low ethical standards."

[shiney]

Liz sure talks a lot when she should be making sandwiches.

[Solid Snake]

That's "Truth" Snake.

Capital T.

Liz is slowly turning me into a hardcore conservative. Why, just the other day I made a list detailing the Gay Agenda. It involves a lot of cheese.

And to think, just a few years back Liz was the one ranting about "privilege" and "heteronormative values" and whatever the hell those other terms she probably made up were.

...I'm glad to hear you're slowly waking up from your left-wing slumber, Matt. It will be nice to be on speaking terms again. I'm still sad that you chose to ban me from your AIM and MSN accounts after our last argument.

But now that you're finally becoming a conservative like us, maybe you'll reconsider your stance on including anti-homosexual and anti-feminist messages in "The Dreadful?" Don't get me wrong, Matt, I'm not trying to coerce you into this; I don't need you throwing an angry fit like you did last time. But I just think your webcomic is good, but it's missing that necessary ingredient to make it great. Liz and I still think you should introduce a character who obviously has deviant sexual preferences, and then have that character die.

(Also, Kit should be the one to kill that character because then it's all symbolic because she has devil-horns, the message being that Satan himself personally executes all those who do not ascribe to traditional Judeo-Christian values!)

[MSperoni]

I'm already getting there, Snake.

[Solid Snake]

...Matt that picture is almost perfect, but despite your increasing adherence to Judeo-Christian norms your subconscious liberal bias is still showing a tad.

I mean the sandwich and the outfit are great touches, but she's still smoking a cigarette.
And we all know that God only lets men smoke cigarettes. They're a masculine sign of independence and 'coolness,' and we can't let women usurp that without doing serious damage to our assigned gender roles.

So I'd like to helpfully recommend you alter her cigarette into a lollipop.
All you have to do is take the smoke out, and it will fit!

[Marc v4.0]

Ya know, I was interested in actually hearing what he had to say and not immaturely dismissing and mocking him for several pages.

For fucks sake! That is EXACTLY the horseshit that gets us up in arms about people like Beck and Palin and their Ilk, but we are just turning around and doing it right back? That makes it better? That makes us better?

Fuck.


What part of this has ever worked to get anyone to see the flaws in their reasoning, the cracks in their beliefs? How do you reach a person and bridge the gap between their views and yours, to bring better understanding, if the first step you take is towards "LOL, I'm gonna pretend to agree with him but everyone knows I am making fun of him and it'll be funny because I have the maturity of a 5 year old".

I'm sure that's what won over our previously super-conservative members. Not the reasoned arguments, the evidence, the logical discussions that forced them to take harder and harder looks at what they truely believed. It was the childish mocking and half-assed straw men.

In reality it seems the very people that claim to be better are just as bad as those they would look down on

[Kim]

I'm not dismissing him at all. I'm defending his viewpoints and discouraging others from dogpiling on him. Don't let the actions of a few posters color your view of the rest of us, Marc. Why are you so upset?

[Kim]

Liz sure talks a lot when she should be making sandwiches.

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg808/scaled.php?tn=0&server=808&filename=q47zw.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

[Fifthfiend]

For fucks sake! That is EXACTLY the horseshit that gets us up in arms about people like Beck and Palin and their Ilk, but we are just turning around and doing it right back? That makes it better? That makes us better?

Uh no the horseshit that gets us up in arms about Beck and Palin is when they constantly lie and demagogue in support of racism, homophobia, misogyny, and plain-old misanthropy in order to advance a policy and philosophy that destroys people's lives and the fabric of our society.

Not really sure why you're getting that confused with, you know, internet sarcasm, but yeah they are really not the same thing at all.

I'm sure that's what won over our previously super-conservative members.

Uh yes Marc, it was basically exactly that.

[rpgdemon]

I'm not dismissing him at all. I'm defending his viewpoints and discouraging others from dogpiling on him. Don't let the actions of a few posters color your view of the rest of us, Marc. Why are you so upset?

Hey, can you tell me again how much you hate those transgenders, Liz? And how horrific it is that you think that they could defile their body like that, and how they ought to all burn in hell? You had a huge, like, five paragraph rant about it, and I can't remember it properly. It was in a news thread, a few months back.

The thread got locked, before I could argue against it, but now you're going on and making yourself look like the good guys here, and really I had a ton wrong with it. If you could remind me exactly what your problems with them are, I'd be much obliged.

[Kim]

I'm just not sure why Marc had to bring direct insults into this lighthearted and friendly discussion.

[MSperoni]

According to Liz's Twitter page, I'm pretty sure transgender people are made of Legos.

[Kim]

Hey, can you tell me again how much you hate those transgenders, Liz? And how horrific it is that you think that they could defile their body like that, and how they ought to all burn in hell? You had a huge, like, five paragraph rant about it, and I can't remember it properly. It was in a news thread, a few months back.

The thread got locked, before I could argue against it, but now you're going on and making yourself look like the good guys here, and really I had a ton wrong with it. If you could remind me exactly what your problems with them are, I'd be much obliged.

I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from, RPG. Even when I'm condemning things I think are bad, I am always an exemplary model of civility and well-mannered behavior.

[Fifthfiend]

Uh yes Marc, it was basically exactly that.

Which isn't to say it's necessarily the approach I personally might take here in this particular case but that is mostly just cause ... IDK not for any particular good reason but just cause reading a lot of dwmitch's posts kind of just makes me sad about how much his avowed views run contrary to his own experience and like... fuck I don't even know if I care to argue him out of those views cause it sounds like he just has a really shitty-ass hard time of things and IDK if I mind too terribly that one guy has turned to one particular form of kind of thoughtless/spiteful/unrealistic conservatism if that's the thing that helps him get through the day (although again, given some of the stuff in his posts - about his insomnia, and his jaw pains, and some of the other hardships he's having to deal with - I would really ask him to consider how well he thinks it is that these views are really helping him to get through the day).

[Solid Snake]

I'm sure that's what won over our previously super-conservative members. Not the reasoned arguments, the evidence, the logical discussions that forced them to take harder and harder looks at what they truely believed. It was the childish mocking and half-assed straw men.


...I'm pretty sure I've been on record here at NPF before about the 'childish mocking and half-assed straw men' being essential elements to my personal conversion.

I mean I'd repost a Wall of Text I wrote on that very subject a while back, but I'm sure you wouldn't read it.

But this really all seems like rather lighthearted ribbing to me, and none of it was even directed at the new guy, who just proffered the excuse for me to imagine an alternate reality in which I was still an ultra-conservative and Liz was 'converted' and Matt was succumbing to attempting to make his characters in 'Dreadful' more acceptable under traditional Judeo-Christian values.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

This thread entertains me in all the wrong ways. I'd contribute something of substance, but that'd be out of character. Not like this thread is Bizarro world, amirite?

[rpgdemon]

I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from, RPG. Even when I'm condemning things I think are bad, I am always an exemplary model of civility and well-mannered behavior.

Touche.

[Seil]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/080211.jpg

[shiney]

In re: people gettin' butthurt 'bout the hap'nins what be hap'nin up ins:

Thread title: "Conservapedia On Feminism" or "BACK IN THE KITCHEN, WOMAN!"

Thread forum: General

If to be taken ultra4srs then there's a forum which is ostensibly ultra4srs, enforcement notwithstanding, but it f'sho isn't this here one.

Edit, GOD DAMMIT SEIL DON'T YOU RELAPSE ON ME YOU SON OF A BITCH

[Azisien]

In NPF Hell, you would start reading a Solid Snake post.

But it wouldn't actually end.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Edit, GOD DAMMIT SEIL DON'T YOU RELAPSE ON ME YOU SON OF A BITCH
CHILL OUT, I GOT THIS SHIT.

http://localhostr.com/file/iw3EAte/d509cf20c52fcaffeb4ab92868d13c98.gif

[CABAL49]

I read all of Snakes posts, but you can blame that on my public education. Teaching me to read and shit. How dare they.

[shiney]

http://img.memecenter.com/uploaded/f80f404f2edc191b607391eef7a2d4c7.jpg
QED.

[Betty Elms]

Ya know, I was interested in actually hearing what he had to say and not immaturely dismissing and mocking him for several pages.
What fascinating things did he have to say that you were interested in hearing? Perhaps exciting tales of life in mIrRoR dImEnSiOn AmErIcA where the political center has been shifting leftwards and advocacy for publicly owned means of production is the hallmark of any good conservative and not at all socialism? Or maybe some rollicking good yarns about upstandin' folk pullin' 'emselves up by their bootstraps 'n facin' the odds? Like if you think that has the potential to just rock your world and turn the universe as you know it on its head, I'm sorry we got in the way with our reckless japery.

For fucks sake! That is EXACTLY the horseshit that gets us up in arms about people like Beck and Palin and their Ilk,
Yes. That is exactly what we hate about Beck and Palin. They just make too many jokes!

This is the general discussion forum, there's no need to get so upset over the lack of pages and pages of classy formal debate. Somebody's gonna pop in and be sarcastic, people are going to make legitimate points in a serious manner, people are going to make legitimate points in a humorous manner, people are going to make shitty points in a shitty manner. It might be nice to have the chance to discuss things with dwmitch with more seriousness in the future, but that's more likely to occur in the news forum.

And personally speaking, I'm not going to feel extraordinarily compelled to buckle down for intense debate and persuasion when the other party sets up "imaginary fantasy land" as the battleground, and selects "insubstantial nonsense" as the weapon wielded by all great heroes, and I have to go about undoing all that. In a more serious thread talking about individual issues, maybe, but I'm not going to try and take on somebody's entire worldview in a "haha conservapedia sure is wacky!" thread.

EDIT - Ignore this or whatever. Forgot to refresh because I'm SO ABSENT MINDED AND KOOKY. Sorry shiney.

[Sifright]

maybe, but I'm not going to try and take on somebody's entire worldview in a "haha conservapedia sure is wacky!" thread.

your idea is bad and you should feel bad.

[Solid Snake]

In NPF Hell, you would start reading a Solid Snake post.

But it wouldn't actually end.

This makes no sense insofar as you're describing something that happens every week in the regular ol' NPF we are all intimately familiar with.
...unless you mean to insinuate that we have all been in NPF hell all along.

[Azisien]

This makes no sense insofar as you're describing something that happens every week in the regular ol' NPF we are all intimately familiar with.
...unless you mean to insinuate that we have all been in NPF hell all along.

http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/CURSES.gif

[phil_]

Or maybe some rollicking good yarns about upstandin' folk pullin' 'emselves up by their bootstraps 'n facin' the odds?Weren't most of his stories about people living paycheck-to-paycheck, disabled people shutting down and giving up on life, or digging ditches for scrap copper instead of money? He was a fountain of sadness, and certain people had to ruin it for everyone.

That, and he went to bed, I think.

[Seil]

Well, what with the DADT repeal, your (totally fabulous) military will... something.

I don't pay attention to American politics anymore. Was 'No Child Left Behind' repealed, or whatever?

[Azisien]

Yes. Absolutely all children are left behind now.

[MSperoni]

Of course, you'd hate to be an enabler. Fuckin' kids and their entitlement issues.

EDIT: I'd also like to show off something (http://twitpic.com/7mvlsv) a fan made out of my sammich pic :)


http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/461689375.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1322796782&Signature=u5e%2BSNDmgfq%2BwjEz2uVuk9xJQ1I%3D


It's like the same thing!...but with letters. And a colored sammich.

[Marc v4.0]

Goddammit why didn't anyone tell me I just suck at this!

It would have been nice to know before all this.

I dunno, maybe I didn't really find it at all amusing -because- of the nature of General. Like, if he had come in being serious and someone said "You would do better off bringing it back up in our section designated for serious talks, General is for mostly just fartz and butz and that is about all you can expect" I wouldn't have let it get to me. Not that I expect anyone to do shit to make me feel better or anything. It seemed more "This is General" became an excuse TO rip on the guy instead of any alternative. It bothered me and I let myself vent instead of forming a better point.

Perhaps all the Serious Political Business is getting to me finally, I can't seem to escape it anymore.

[dwmitch]

Perhaps all the Serious Political Business is getting to me finally, I can't seem to escape it anymore.

You've gotta take a break from politics every once in a while. Otherwise you'll burn out. I use to debate my liberal friend all the time, which I loved because it kept our minds sharp. It's also how I developed the nasty habit of relying on personal anecdotes, because they carry more weight when your opponent personally knows the people you're talking about and when we were in the financial position to be somewhat philanthropic those debates also served to update each other on who could use our assistance, but I digress.

Anyway, the debates carried over for so long that we just got fed up with politics in general. In fact, this was the first conversation of a political nature I've engaged in for quite some time because of the burnout and his stock response to all things political is "don't know and don't give a damn."

[shiney]

General is for mostly just fartz and butz and that is about all you can expectLadies and gentlemen, our new General forum description.

[Nique]

Huh. Who knew that anything good would come from this horrible thread?

Not me!

[dwmitch]

I'm just curious how someone like dwmitch even found themselves on this site. I mean, it's not exactly ultra-Conservative haven, and it's not like any of the comics posted preach right-wing messages. Unless they do. And if they do I really hope it isn't mine...

I mean...what is there to POSSIBLY appeal to you here? The sexy and always witty NPForumites?

Not that I want anyone to leave or feel alienated...but...It just makes me curious...

Metaphorical Fucks are called Metafornication!

I came here to catch up on 8-bit theater (don't remember where I left off, but it's going to take weeks to go through what I missed), saw the epilogue, saw the forum link, and came here to see if there were any notices pertaining to it (particularly if it's concluded or if a new cycle will start based on another game). Got to browsing the message boards and figured this would be a good place to kill some time.

Doesn't matter what the tone of a comic is. I watch Family Guy, for crying out loud. I also read Questionable Content and Sabrina Online is what introduced me to web comics in general. I'm not one of those people who yell at the screen or become consumed by choleric humour over a joke.

[Krylo]

came here to see if there were any notices pertaining to it (particularly if it's concluded or if a new cycle will start based on another game).

It's concluded, no new cycles. Brian Clevinger (8-bits writer/'artist') wrote for Warbot in Accounting and How I Killed Your Master, but neither are much like 8-Bit, and certainly aren't based on games. Matt Speroni, the artist for How I Killed Your Master is working on a solo project called The Dreadful which Brian is hosting on the website, but his creative presence is limited to occasionally giving Matt pointers. He doesn't write for it.

Brian is currently writing for Atomic Robo and doing various side projects, though I don't keep up on what exactly all of those are. I know at least one is writing for the web series 'Nuka Break', which is a creation of Zack Finfrock, the artist for Warbot in Accounting, and is based on the Fallout universe. Brian isn't the sole writer here, though, and I'm unsure exactly how much of the writing is his work exactly.

None of Brian's web based comics are updating any more. Warbot has both Brian and Zack busy with their own things (Robo and Nuka Break respectively), while HIKYM has stalled due to Brian's schedule. There are vague promises of the latter eventually being finished when Brian gets enough free time to send Matt more pages to art up, but for the time being the only comic on Nuklear Power which is updating consistently is The Dreadful.

[shiney]

3/10, too much information, not enough snark.

[Seil]

Doesn't matter what the tone of a comic is. I watch Family Guy, for crying out loud. I also read Questionable Content and Sabrina Online is what introduced me to web comics in general. I'm not one of those people who yell at the screen or become consumed by choleric humour over a joke.

I think my first was Penny Arcade. Point is I watch Family Guy and read QC too, and it's no measure of my behavior. A measure of my behavior is that I read CTRL ALT DEL and Least I Could Do. But that's a stitch for another thread.

This thread is all about being terrible. I will not turn a brown eye to it - I'm going to be really anal here: this thread reeks. We're starting to see the cracks in the current government, yes, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to clean it up. There's too much mudslinging in todays modern politics, where one asshole is trying to outdo another, where nobody wants to be number two. But I believe that we can make a change here - that we can flush out the moist ignorance and fear, and wash our hands of the bigoted and selfish nature of the current democracy. It is possible to make a difference, however much you have to strain, to push it into place, the world will be better for the sweat of your brow, and the color in your cheeks.

[Melfice]

5/10
Pushing the joke too far and, at the same time, not far enough.

[Osterbaum]

Oh man, if I were a mod this would be a great time to come up with some witty reponse referencing the previous few posts and then close the thread.

[Krylo]

3/10, too much information, not enough snark.
Like I need your validation. It's not like you're some kind of demagogue with some kind of ridiculous following that mindlessly regurgitates yo...
5/10
Pushing the joke too far and, at the same time, not far enough.

Oh.

Well.

Nevermind, then. Carry on.

[Archbio]

Alright, random page on Conservapedia yields* the wonders of their Marquis de Sade article: (http://www.conservapedia.com/Marquis_de_Sade)

Marquis de Sade was an atheist.

That's fine, seems factual enough, and it deserves mention...

The Journal of Medical Ethics declared concerning the atheist and sadist Marquis de Sade:

I think you mentioned that alrea-

The perverse and cruel atheist Marquis de Sade in prison, 18th century line engraving.

Huh.

During a portion of his life, the Marquis de Sade had problems maintaining his weight and he was grotesquely obese.

That seems like an odd factoid to mention, I wonder if it's supposed to imply something mo-

See also

Atheism and sadism
Atheism and obesity
PZ Myers and abortion

Oh.

-

*Full disclosure: the three first random page searches actually gave out non-political, neutral and sane articles, but their thinness made me sad to think of these people struggling in the endeavour of making an encyclopedia.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Why is there no fascistpedia?

[MSperoni]

... for the time being the only comic on Nuklear Power which is updating consistently is The Dreadful.

Y'damn straight!

[shiney]

Why is there no fascistpedia?

US Congress is working on that one currently.

[Aerozord]

you know I think I know why this exists. It was most likely atleast partially designed to give the conservative point of view. Sometimes you dont want a neutral point of view and I can see merit in showing information with an ideological bias as long as its upfront about it.

Unfortunately wikis are publicly maintained and the ones that care most about conservatism to make pages about it will be the crazed extremist nut jobs.

Why do I bring this up? Just an observation that it would be impossible to make a wiki with a political lean without it devolving into this. Sure a liberal alternative would only seem less crazed because of how many here are bias, but still hard to ignore how crazy it would be.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That would only be the case if fundamental to one of the sides wasn't a massive strain of anti-intellectualism and religious propaganda. Like what kind of crazy shit would the extreme leftists write on their wiki. How can it be as bad as articles which set out to refute the last few hundred years of scientific progress based on homespun observations and high school levels of understanding.
~bothsides~

[Kim]

You're just biased in favor of science and facts, Smarty!

[MSperoni]

Diseases are caused by toads that the wizards put under your pillow. My preacher told me so.

[Aerozord]

That would only be the case if fundamental to one of the sides wasn't a massive strain of anti-intellectualism and religious propaganda. Like what kind of crazy shit would the extreme leftists write on their wiki. How can it be as bad as articles which set out to refute the last few hundred years of scientific progress based on homespun observations and high school levels of understanding.
~bothsides~

by sounding like anti-religious smug know it alls that view anyone that doesn't conform to their views as both immoral and ignorant. In fact your very statement is evidence to my point. You view their side as fundamentally one of ignorance and propaganda is itself ignorant. One should not dismiss an entire group just because the loud extremists get the most attention. While it has its bad points, it has good and neutral ones as well.

Religion for example has done alot of good for the world as well. In fact its typically the perversion of religious philosophy that actually causes problems. Being accepting of others, charitable, kind, are all things glorified by most faiths.

Now sure much of it I do not agree with, but a true intellectual keeps an open mind to other points of view and shouldn't view themselves as morally superior one. Neither side is about facts and truth, both are about opinions and values. Unless you are suggesting liberals are completely free of their own propaganda engines and is always 100% factual

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I'd say let's run an experiment and see how crazy these liberals can get.

[Kim]

Aerozord: Being smug is JUST AS BAD as trying to refute centuries of scientific progress.

Hahaha wow. I don't even have to bother arguing the point because the point is plainly ridiculous.

[Aerozord]

I'd say let's run an experiment and see how crazy these liberals can get.

do it, thats true science.

Hypothesis: A liberal wiki would eventually devolve into propaganda and insults to the opposing side.

Can us conserbapedia and wikipedia as contrasts to compare

[Kim]

Hypothesis: A liberal wiki would eventually devolve into propaganda and insults to the opposing side.A conservative wiki THAT ALREADY EXISTS is racist, homophobic, sexist and tries to argue against centuries of scientific progress.

Your hypothesis is that a liberal wiki would be mean and have propoganda.

Aero, in what fanciful, ridiculous world do you live in where the latter is JUST AS BAD as the former?

[MSperoni]

Aerozord: Being smug is JUST AS BAD as trying to refute centuries of scientific progress.

Don't forget to include the homophobic and misogynistic tendencies of the extremists on that particular end o' the spectrum.


Or.. Shut up, Liz. Quit being a smug liberal and get back to your young'uns.

EDIT: Nevermind. I got ninja posted. :(

[A Zarkin' Frood]

do it, thats true science.

Hypothesis: A liberal wiki would eventually devolve into propaganda and insults to the opposing side.

Can us conserbapedia and wikipedia as contrasts to compare

I'm just gonna say, from watching debates of the Bundestag it seems that the more conservative leaning politicians are more likely to use insults while liberals are constantly making excuses in reaction to said insults. Of course, the German conservatism and liberalism aren't exactly the same as the American.

EDIT: Like there was this liberal politician and she talked about something and then the conservative dude told her she insulted the soldiers in iraq, then she came back and said no she didn't (saying she did was indeed a bit of a reach, with really long arms), then another conservative came and more or less said she was stupid. How's that in America? Got some maturity in your politics?

[Geminex]

There actually is a liberapedia (http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page), that was created as a direct response to conservapedia. Like, this is the parody.

And, looking at it, it still isn't as bad as conservapedia.

[3stan]

do it, thats true science.

Hypothesis: A liberal wiki would eventually devolve into propaganda and insults to the opposing side.


Well, you're half right. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

When did I become antireligion? I've done papers in theology and history of christianity, got many well thumbed text books by my bed. I don't know where you get that from.
Conservative theology is not based around religious values anyway, it is based aroud the most ill-informed religious values. They are not based around the bible or christian theology but around perveted theology that was clearly and demonstratably designed to play into the power systems of the elite and to suppress the poor.
I am not anti-religion, I am anti the catchphrase "religion" of conservative theology which is not based on any genuine religious belief but is clearly a product of years of church elite oppressing the masses and designed a system to enable this. It is like the most obvious con-scam in history. I'm pretty sure Jesus did't say "Build a church designed to impoverish and discriminate, to prevent revolution and to enable a long running system of financial robbery". In fact he actually said the opposite.
If you want to be an discriminatory greedy shit then fine, but don't besmirch the name of Jesus with your false association. And if you wnt to use "religion" as your justification just to escape arguments, nope. You have to engage at least with the current trend of theologians rather than whatever bullshit you dreamed up in your head after flipping through the bible a few times. How many people advocating religious policies are read up on current theology. I'm going to guess 0%.

Also drawing a line through history the good done by religion is so laughly small compared to the evil carried out by it I feel pretty happy dismissing it. And all the "good" is pretty much universally on the side of theologists not of religious organisers of the church.
As for the "you're just taking the most vocal members", no I'm not. Conservative philosophy at its very heart is based around antiintellectualism, about rejecting the conclusions of academia which are universily leftwing, both in political philosophy and in natural philosophy and about religious values. This is what the movement is based aroud.


Also a leftwing (cause a liberal wiki is basically conservapedia with a load of paint) wiki would descend into attacking each other as the really unifying factor of left wing politics is ridiculous internal squabbles which allows the forces of ignorance and beaurcracy to take over.

[Aerozord]

What is with the dichotomy of the internet? You know its possible to accept aspects of both sides you know? That the one opposing your side isn't inherently evil or even wrong.

It just sounds so, hypocritical to me.

"hey they are close-minded, so lets insult their beliefs and ignore their point of view"

you see no irony in that?

[Kim]

My favorite part of your posts is the part where you do absolutely nothing to address any of the points being brought up that counter your assumptions and characterization of the left. You just keep riding that one-trick pony of, "You guys are just as bad as the right for being close-minded about their views!" Keep it up.

[Kim]

Also, I don't think any of us have accused them of being close-minded so much as we've accused them of being wrong, of being ignorant, of arguing in favor of terrible policies, and of using religion as a petty, terrible justification of all of it. We've also argued that this reflects on them personally, because it does and it should.

Conservative policies are discriminatory, maintain an unfair social structure, make the oppression of underprivileged classes all the easier through the aforementioned discriminatory policies, and seek to remove what little support oppressed and underprivileged social classes actually get. Of course this reflects on them.

You would have us ignore the obvious implications of this behavior, that they are either bad people in at least some respects or merely ignorant of how they contribute to these problems, because it's "not nice" to point this out.

But hey, ~bothsidez~, am I right?

[Marc v4.0]

fartz and butz

[Aerozord]

My favorite part of your posts is the part where you do absolutely nothing to address any of the points being brought up that counter your assumptions and characterization of the left. You just keep riding that one-trick pony of, "You guys are just as bad as the right for being close-minded about their views!" Keep it up.

because there is no point to it. I am fully aware that nothing I say will change anyones mind. Even with evidence shown it will be dismissed as an exception or "not as bad". I mean how can you open someone up to the idea that they aren't open to ideas? I hate finding stuff to source, and not going to hunt around when they'd be dismissed anyways.

Probably asking why I'd bother posting at all then. Bored, like most people, and indifferent to what everyone personally believes. As I said all points of view are valid and I am far to cynical to think that posting on here will have any real effect in the world. I am just stating another point of view, if anyone sees value in it, yay, if not it atleast killed a few minutes.

I mean come on, its a forum for a sprite comic. Oh and also hope that its not totally sarcasm and you really do enjoy reading my ramblings even if just to laugh at them. Because we should all try to bring some amusement into the lives of others

[Sifright]

As I said all points of view are valid and I am far to cynical to think that posting on here will have any real effect in the world.

That part of your text right there is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever read.

NO NOT ALL POINTS OF VIEW ARE VALID.

Edit: Like what the fuck Aero, there is no way that could possibly be right.

[Kim]

If you have nothing meaningful to contribute to the discussion except the highly insulting implication that we're all ~just as bad~ as a pack of racist, sexist, homophobic ignoramuses who contribute to the continued creation and oppression of the lower and middle classes, then perhaps you should not participate in the discussion at all.

If you start a discussion with the mindset that, "If anyone actually calls me out on my bullshit, I will just keep spouting bullshit and not actually take the discussion seriously, all while criticizing them for not taking the other side seriously," then you should not have started that discussion. You should not be wasting our time. You should keep your mouth shut.

[Krylo]

because there is no point to it. I am fully aware that nothing I say will change anyones mind.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkr84cLT611qjj9y7o1_500.jpg

[Kim]

That part of your text right there is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever read.

NO NOT ALL POINTS OF VIEW ARE VALID.

This, too.

[Amake]

I think we - people - are currently in the process of discovering that conservatism actually doesn't work; that it has no redeeming features; that it's in fact detrimental to the preservation and development of human life on this planet, and ultimately admit that it's a bad idea and forget it. It takes a long time for an idea to fully die, but I guess the forum has collectively decided to try to hurry it along. Much like Nazism and walking on all fours, conservatism is not something we need; and no more do we need to respect it.

[Krylo]

walking on all fours [. . .] is not something we need
Oh really?

And how do YOU get around? What, do you just hold your front paw in the air while you walk like some kind of injured dog or something?

[Amake]

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/immortalpictures/segways.jpg

[MSperoni]

I mean come on, its a forum for a sprite comic.

Not anymore! :dance:


My next step is to do some work on Warbot so I will have had my balls dipped in everything on this site.

[Sifright]

Not anymore! :dance:


My next step is to do some work on Warbot so I will have had my balls dipped in everything on this site.

Hot.

[Krylo]

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/immortalpictures/segways.jpg

Typical liberal elitism.

[Amake]

I feel it necessary to point out that in my country, "liberal" is an insult akin to "oppressor-robot lackey of the capitalist dictatorship".

That's social democratic elitism.

[MSperoni]

And one of the cops isn't white?.. Pfft...what kinda fairy-land do you live in, Amake?

This is some computer generated bullshit, like the moon-landing and Obama's Presidency.

[Nique]

It seems that Aerozord's issue is more that the views of individual people are being dismissed out of hand pretty aggressively becuase they happen to agree with certain, traditionally conservative, viewpoints.

The general excuse for doing this seems to be basically 'I'm tired of arguing these clearly ridiculous ideas on their own merits so I'm just going to feel ok about being sarcastic and mean'. Which, I mean, yeah kind of comes across as closed minded.

You would have us ignore the obvious implications of this behavior, that they are either bad people in at least some respects or merely ignorant of how they contribute to these problems, because it's "not nice" to point this out.

No that is not what he's saying.

You can talk about how conservative views are wrong while maintaining a polite level of reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean adopting an ambiguous stance on everything or even that you are wrong. It just means generally acknowledging that you, as an individual, might be wrong about some thing.

tl;dr - you can say how conservatism sucks and still be nice to individuals.

EDIT: I'm not totally on Aerozords side exactly in terms of 'all viewpoints being valid' or whatever, but I'm not certain that's what he's trying to get at exactly.

[Kim]

tl;dr - you can say how conservatism sucks and still be nice to individuals.

And if you aren't, you're JUST AS BAD as them.

You can't really cut that part out of his point, because it was the part of his point that actually bugged me the most.

[Nique]

And if you aren't, you're JUST AS BAD as them.

I think it's more that being a jerk from one perspective is just as bad as being a jerk from another.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I think it's more that being a jerk from one perspective is just as bad as being a jerk from another.

^

[Osterbaum]

I think it's more that being a jerk from one perspective is just as bad as being a jerk from another.
I see your point, but still this isn't entirely true. Not that I approve with being a jerk exactly, but if you're a jerk and your point is invalid, then you're still worse than someone who is being a jerk but is right 'cause invalidating that persons point you are committing the logical fallacy of style over substance, aren't you?

[The SSB Intern]

So what happens when we decide who the biggest jerk is? Does he become king of the forums?

[Nique]

I see your point, but still this isn't entirely true. Not that I approve with being a jerk exactly, but if you're a jerk and your point is invalid, then you're still worse than someone who is being a jerk but is right...

No, becuase being right doesn't make you good, it just makes you right.

... 'cause invalidating that persons point you are committing the logical fallacy of style over substance, aren't you?

Yeah if someone is saying 'You're wrong becuase you're being a jerk' then that is clearly a fallacy.

It's (subjectively, but in general) bad to be a jerk, at least in a normal conversation with relative strangers. I don't think exceptions should be made just becuase someone is wrong.

[Nique]

So what happens when we decide who the biggest jerk is? Does he become king of the forums?

Clearly.

[Osterbaum]

It's not like I think being a jerk is great or the best way to go, but sometimes enough is enough. Like if you're going to be a racist or a homophobe or similarily discriminate, then how far does it have to go before you reach a point where the other persons just shouldn't even be acknowledged anymore?

[Seil]

I think at that point I wouldn't acknowledge you.

[Osterbaum]

OR "Assholes with opinions are still assholes"

[Seil]

If you judge people, it leaves you no time to love them.

[Archbio]

Just an observation that it would be impossible to make a wiki with a political lean without it devolving into this. Sure a liberal alternative would only seem less crazed because of how many here are bias, but still hard to ignore how crazy it would be.

I can't help but notice that, while Conservapedia exists, its "liberal alternative" doesn't. In fact, Conservapedians believe that Wikipedia is the "liberal alternative."

That's Conservapedia's whole deal.

I think that kind of trumps the uber fallacious notion that everything on "one side" has its perfect opposite exist somewhere in the platonic ether.

The nuts that are responsible for the foundation and form of Conservapedia might not be representative of the average so-called conservative, but their existence says something about the general current of conservativism they belong to.

[Seil]

http://nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=35184

[Archbio]

Conservapedia is a "news website and aggregated weblog?"

I did not know that.

[Marc v4.0]

Man, the tone changed real damn fast

On the bright side, I don't feel silly for being Mr Serious Funkill some pages back anymore

[Kim]

I think it's more that being a jerk from one perspective is just as bad as being a jerk from another.

His "point," as stated several times, was that a liberal alternative to conservapedia would be "just as bad." I find it rather hard to believe that his point was "would be just as bad in terms of being jerks" when our point against Conservapedia, as explained throughout this thread, was never that the people who run it are jerks. How "jerkish" they are never entered into it at any point, so I just don't buy that he was comparing ONLY how mean the particular groups are.

If he was, it was completely irrelevant ANY of the rest of the thread.

[Seil]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/Also-a-Family.jpg

[Osterbaum]

Seil I don't... I mean... How is this supposed to relate to the discussion?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It seems that Aerozord's issue is more that the views of individual people are being dismissed out of hand pretty aggressively becuase they happen to agree with certain, traditionally conservative, viewpoints.

The general excuse for doing this seems to be basically 'I'm tired of arguing these clearly ridiculous ideas on their own merits so I'm just going to feel ok about being sarcastic and mean'. Which, I mean, yeah kind of comes across as closed minded.



No that is not what he's saying.

You can talk about how conservative views are wrong while maintaining a polite level of reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean adopting an ambiguous stance on everything or even that you are wrong. It just means generally acknowledging that you, as an individual, might be wrong about some thing.

tl;dr - you can say how conservatism sucks and still be nice to individuals.

EDIT: I'm not totally on Aerozords side exactly in terms of 'all viewpoints being valid' or whatever, but I'm not certain that's what he's trying to get at exactly.


If you are going to advocate political opinions based a policy package of discrimination and impoverishment of anyone not born into a wealthy family why should I treat you with respect. Your entire political viewpoint is predicated upon treating eerybody who isn't a rich white dude with a predatory disdain.
Like if I go around claiming we should make murder legal wwould you treat my viewpoints with respect, would you treat me with respect? I don't think you would. But hey guess what- that what's conservatives basicaly argue.

[MSperoni]

Like if I go around claiming we should make murder legal wwould you treat my viewpoints with respect, would you treat me with respect? I don't think you would.

I'm getting to the point where I'm tired of having to cowtow to every Conservative Extremist's viewpoint for the purpose of the romantic notion of Liberal Tolerance.

I seriously cannot stand racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc and so I feel no obligation to not be a douche to people who are on the side of a belief system which advocates those kinds of things (not that everyone who is a Conservative does, some seem quite nice). Maybe that makes me a "bad guy". Maybe I'm supposed to be "better than that", but I'm starting to not really care anymore. I dunno what to really think about that. I know it's unfair to judge a side based on the actions of their extremes...and part of me still wants to be a nice guy and listen to everyone's point of view...But...It's getting harder! I used to be such a pleasant moderate, too :(


I should probably just get back to work.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's not just the extremes howeer. The core tenets of conservatism are deeply hateful and malicious. It's inherent to their political philosophy. You can't hide by being "Oh I don't hate the black man, I just want to economically destroy his chances of every being as successful as the white man".

[Kim]

The mentality seems to be that the left should be nicer, because being nicer makes me the bigger person. Except that's not what makes me the bigger person.

Not hating gays, lesbians, transsexuals, and other such groups makes me the bigger person.

Not thinking the government should establish laws specifically to oppress those groups makes me the bigger person.

Not thinking poor people simply deserve to be poor makes me the bigger person.

Not thinking that our jail system should be nothing more than an institution for inflicting petty revenge makes me the bigger person.

Not thinking we should inhibit the rights of women, putting their health and autonomy at risk, all based on some improvable, arbitrary concept of when life begins makes me the bigger person.

Etc etc etc.

"But not all conservatives are like that!"

No, but all conservatives self identify with a political movement that advocates a great many terrible policies and ideas, these among them, and thus if they don't support these things and don't want to feel the terrible sting of me being mean, they should probably reconsider just why they self identify with this group in the first place.

That said, I generally am not a dick to specific conservatives simply for being conservatives. I am a dick to specific conservatives when they advocate these things.

Not all viewpoints are created equal, and I am under no obligation to pretend they are, and not pretending that, "gays are evil," or, "taxing the rich is evil" are equally valid viewpoints to my own does not, in fact, make me just as bad as conservatives, and to argue that it does is complete and utter ~bothsidez~ nonsense, justifying my overuse of tildes long into the future.

To anyone who would accuse me of being close-minded for this, in turn I tell you that you are close-minded for not treating hollow Earth conspiracy theorists who believe Elvis was abducted by aliens and JFK is still alive on a secret island resort as valid as you expect me to pretend conservatism is. If you disagree, that's only because you're biased, after all.

[Solid Snake]

Man, I remember there was a time back when NPF was in its relative infancy when both sides of the argument actually did command a certain degree of respect, or at least there appeared to be an unspoken assumption that not every Republican was a jackass.

...Boy has the last ten years changed things.
Mind you, it's increasingly apparent these days that the Republican party always was fucked up and never was quite right, and I don't mean to imply that Republicans back then were great people or that I held decent beliefs in association with them, but damn, has the Republican party really taken a hard right turn off a cliff lately.

What worries is me is particularly evidenced by our very own NPF newcomer, who seems to adhere to a somewhat startling trend in Conservative circles; the right has so effusively dictated its terms to its adherents that a vast majority of conservatives now find no inherent contradiction in their belief that the George W. Bush presidency was a failure because he wasn't right-wing enough.

...You know the conversation's been completely warped beyond anything that you can approach with a firm sense of reality when the opposing side is absolutely convinced that the most hard-line intolerant asshole who's been a President in recent history wasn't intolerant or hateful enough for them. He only started two wars; that's not good enough! He didn't oppress gays sufficiently! He didn't deny global warming strongly enough! He didn't force us all to pray twice daily! He didn't waterboard enough terrorists! He didn't lower taxes enough! He didn't build a three-thousand yard fence to electrocute Mexicans! He didn't give Wall Street and the rich enough of a free pass! The Environmental Protection Agency remained intact after he left office!

...What a traitor of conservative values!

(...What I just typed is exactly the rhetoric employed by every Republican currently running for President, which is precisely why you should be worried.)

EDIT: I mean what boggles my mind about this whole story is how incredibly successful the right-wing media (Fox News and friends) were at completely warping reality itself in order to string along their adherents to believe more bold-faced lies.
The truth of the matter was obvious: The Bush Administration was incredibly unpopular and a complete failure.
The problem for Fox was equally obvious: If the Administration failed it's probably an altogether decent sign that it failed because its policies were fucked up.
...Nope! Fox News presents a cunning alternate reality for its fans: Bush failed because he was too liberal for society!

[Nique]

If you are going to advocate political opinions based a policy package of discrimination and impoverishment of anyone not born into a wealthy family why should I treat you with respect. Your entire political viewpoint is predicated upon treating eerybody who isn't a rich white dude with a predatory disdain.
Like if I go around claiming we should make murder legal wwould you treat my viewpoints with respect, would you treat me with respect? I don't think you would. But hey guess what- that what's conservatives basicaly argue.

That said, I generally am not a dick to specific conservatives simply for being conservatives. I am a dick to specific conservatives when they advocate these things.

The problem is the way this point is being argued. Most conservatives don't advocate policy becuase they think it's harmful to another group of people. Now, as wrong as that may be, the implication that people like dwmitch hate the poor is not just rude but also fallacious.

His "point," as stated several times, was that a liberal alternative to conservapedia would be "just as bad." I find it rather hard to believe that his point was "would be just as bad in terms of being jerks" when our point against Conservapedia, as explained throughout this thread, was never that the people who run it are jerks. How "jerkish" they are never entered into it at any point, so I just don't buy that he was comparing ONLY how mean the particular groups are.

A liberal version of 'conservapedia' would be just as intellectually dishonest and make just as many bad and rude and slanted arguments becuase that's what Conservapedia is. Like, even when Conservapedia is accurate, it's probably for the wrong reasons. The only difference would be that 'liberpedia' would possibly be right more often... just also for the wrong reasons.

So if Aerozord meant that it would be just as bad, point-for-point, that's probably not the case. But it would still be kind of terrible and just becuase it wouldn't be as terrible as Conservapedia is, doesn't mean that a liberal circlejerk site is worth endorsing.

[Kim]

The problem is the way this point is being argued. Most conservatives don't advocate policy becuase they think it's harmful to another group of people. Now, as wrong as that may be, the implication that people like dwmitch hate the poor is not just rude but also fallacious.Except I stated repeatedly that they don't necessarily hate the poor. I stated that they may in fact not support some of the terrible policies, but that they are still aligning themselves, by choice, with a group that does. I also stated, earlier, that it may be ignorance rather than malice. These policies do these things. This is fact. If you support them, you are supporting terrible things that cause terrible things. You either do this because of malice or because you are ignorant of the fact that these things have these results.

I know we all like to pretend ignorant is a dirty word that we should never ever use because it hurts people's feelings, but the simple fact is sometimes you don't know stuff, and when you don't know those things you are ignorant about them. It does not mean you are all ignorant all the time, but if you don't realize that the policies you support have terrible effects, then yes you are going to have to deal with the fact that I think you are ignorant of the implications of your actions.

[Solid Snake]

The problem is the way this point is being argued. Most conservatives don't advocate policy becuase they think it's harmful to another group of people. Now, as wrong as that may be, the implication that people like dwmitch hate the poor is not just rude but also fallacious.

It wasn't that conservatives advocated policy out of some overtly Hitleresque sinister desire to fuck people up.
It's actually far worse: Most run-of-the-mill middle-class conservatives advocate policy that fucks people up, only they don't even know it because a higher class of intellectually attuned conservatives out for self-gain are manipulating them like stooges.

Like, that actually increases the necessity for you to speak up and for liberals to hold circle-jerks. It's not merely a matter of identifying obvious, overt evil and striking it down as one might slay a dragon. It's a matter of making people who are sleepwalking through their political lives aware of the fact that the positions they're endorsing are actually harmful.

Like if Fifth and Liz and Smarty and (insert liberal forum presence who once debated Conservative Slimy Snake here) were like, "Okay guys, we need to tell Snake that he's really a great guy and we just respectfully disagree with his batshit insane conservative positions despite how sexist, racist, homophobic, intolerant, hawkish, elitist, or destructive they are, while acknowledging his right to his opinion," I'd still be just as conservative as I once was, and I'd be spouting endless amounts of bullshit. But at least my opinion would be respected and I'd feel all warm and fuzzy for being accepted despite being 'different,' right?

Nah, that's not the way it works. There's not a day in my own political misadventures that I'm not thankful that I had the negative ramifications of conservative policies rammed down my throat by hordes of NPF vigilantes who beat me down until I realized the truth.

And given that I could handle it (given how extraordinarily sensitive I am), I really can't see the argument against acting that way around other conservatives. Yes, they may hate it for a while, but eventually (if they really do have an intellectual curiosity about them worth admiring) they'll thank you for it.

[Krylo]

A liberal version of 'conservapedia' would be just as intellectually dishonest and make just as many bad and rude and slanted arguments becuase that's what Conservapedia is. Like, even when Conservapedia is accurate, it's probably for the wrong reasons. The only difference would be that 'liberpedia' would possibly be right more often... just also for the wrong reasons.

So if Aerozord meant that it would be just as bad, point-for-point, that's probably not the case. But it would still be kind of terrible and just becuase it wouldn't be as terrible as Conservapedia is, doesn't mean that a liberal circlejerk site is worth endorsing.
Except, what both you and Aerozord are missing is that Liberalpedia Does Not Exist.

This, in and of itself, destroys the idea that it would be 'just as bad'. It is no harder for a liberal to make a wiki than a conservative. Probably easier as there are more liberals in the tech sector! And yet such a hateful ill informed site does not exist for liberal politics.

Why could this be? It is not an issue of opportunity or difficulty. Perhaps it is because that this is simply another point proving that liberalism and the left wing as a whole are much less intellectually dishonest than their opposite? Maybe that?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Also you know, academia is all full of dem crazy liberals. we can just get them to make up results that convientely match our prejudices. It's the perfect system.

[Solid Snake]

Except, what both you and Aerozord are missing is that Liberalpedia Does Not Exist.


I'm trying to imagine the way that a Liberalpedia article on, say, Herman Cain would actually in any way differ from Wikipedia's article on Herman Cain.

...Maybe the Liberalpedia article would include more sordid details of his assaults and thus actually be more reliable?

[Kim]

Liberalpedia, in a fanciful world where it existed, would condemn Cain's affairs while excusing Clinton's.

Which is still pretty tame compared to what Conservapedia pulls.

[Solid Snake]

Liberalpedia, in a fanciful world where it existed, would condemn Cain's affairs while excusing Clinton's.

Nah. Just as the ultra-right wing conservatives paint George W. Bush as too liberal for them, Liberalpedia, in representing the most virulent left-wing feminists and human rights advocates, would chew Clinton out for his moderate political policies (welfare reform?) and his subpar treatment of women.

...Which, incidentally enough, would actually make Liberalpedia even more reliable!!! Holy shit, we're onto something here.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Does any liberal anywhere not condemn Clinton for his economically ruinous policies?
Like Clinton is pretty much the poster child for democrats/republicans they all the same.

[Sifright]

Except, what both you and Aerozord are missing is that Liberalpedia Does Not Exist.

This, in and of itself, destroys the idea that it would be 'just as bad'. It is no harder for a liberal to make a wiki than a conservative. Probably easier as there are more liberals in the tech sector! And yet such a hateful ill informed site does not exist for liberal politics.

Why could this be? It is not an issue of opportunity or difficulty. Perhaps it is because that this is simply another point proving that liberalism and the left wing as a whole are much less intellectually dishonest than their opposite? Maybe that?

Hohoho doesn't exist eh? then what is this! www.Liberalpedia.com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) Yes thats right THERE IS A LIEBRALPEDIA Look how terrible and slanted it is with it's terrible left leaning views of everything it's an atrocity!

[Kim]

We can only have a Liberalpedia if I get to make a Liberalpedia article about what a fucking tool Bruce Wayne is.

[Nique]

Except I stated repeatedly that they don't necessarily hate the poor. I stated that they may in fact not support some of the terrible policies, but that they are still aligning themselves, by choice, with a group that does. I also stated, earlier, that it may be ignorance rather than malice. These policies do these things. This is fact. If you support them, you are supporting terrible things that cause terrible things. You either do this because of malice or because you are ignorant of the fact that these things have these results.

I know we all like to pretend ignorant is a dirty word that we should never ever use because it hurts people's feelings, but the simple fact is sometimes you don't know stuff, and when you don't know those things you are ignorant about them. It does not mean you are all ignorant all the time, but if you don't realize that the policies you support have terrible effects, then yes you are going to have to deal with the fact that I think you are ignorant of the implications of your actions.

I would argue that, despite that brief caveat, there's pretty heavy implication in your posts that conservatives are supporting things out of malice, especially becuase that seems to be what your justification for 'being a dick' is hanging on.

But ok so let's talk about that issue of ignorance - I would agree that sometimes it's going to be necessary to tell someone that they don't know what they're talking about or that they are missing crucial information or whatever. They're ignorant. But, I mean, knowing that telling someone they're ignorant is going to be a sensitive issue...

I guess what I'm saying is that you, Fifth, Betty and whoever else were being pretty derisive towards dwmitch. Like a lot of it was just jokes directed at his political opinions or conservatism in general and those were probably fine, but a lot more of it was directed at him. It was like instead of saying 'you're ignorant about this one thing/ things', you said 'You ARE ignorant'. I'm pretty sure 'We don't want your kind here' is exactly the message he got.

I think if we're going to say that General is all fun and games and we aren't really going to get into in depth political debates that shouldn't mean carte blanch to make jokes at individuals that amount to personal attacks when politics do come up.

Why could this be? It is not an issue of opportunity or difficulty. Perhaps it is because that this is simply another point proving that liberalism and the left wing as a whole are much less intellectually dishonest than their opposite? Maybe that?

I may be getting confused but this seems like a separate point. In any case, I agree that intellectual honesty is much more of a hall mark in liberalism.

Like if Fifth and Liz and Smarty and (insert liberal forum presence who once debated Conservative Slimy Snake here) were like, "Okay guys, we need to tell Snake that he's really a great guy and we just respectfully disagree with his batshit insane conservative positions despite how sexist, racist, homophobic, intolerant, hawkish, elitist, or destructive they are, while acknowledging his right to his opinion," I'd still be just as conservative as I once was, and I'd be spouting endless amounts of bullshit. But at least my opinion would be respected and I'd feel all warm and fuzzy for being accepted despite being 'different,' right?

So we need to disrespect people into converting? I understand the need to speak up and maybe even argue aggressively but are you seriously advocating bullying people into liberalism?

[Archbio]

Like a lot of it was just jokes directed at his just political opinions or conservatism in general and those were probably fine, but a lot more of it was directed at him.

And by him you mean the guy who is a hard working piano tuner, copper scrounger and itinerant chimneysweep full of pluck and positive thinking unlike those other poor people who are all lazy bums?

That guy?

Yeah, sorry for making it personal out of nowhere.

[Nique]

And I love how you only grant that the non-personal jokes were probably fine. Like, you're not quite sure that people should just shut up just in case.

I've clearly offended you somehow but I seriously have no idea what you're getting at here or what you think I meant.

EDIT: Ok what was with the ninja edit?

[Nique]

Just to be clear my argument that people should try to be at least kind of nice to people they disagree with should in no way be construed to mean that all viewpoints on every topic are totally valid or should be treated as such.

But like, I don't know how many more times I have to say that before it actually sinks in.

[Archbio]

But like, I don't know how many more times I have to say that before it actually sinks in.

Maybe next time you say it everyone will somehow agree that what you're saying is relevant and correct.

[Nique]

Ok well you're saying I'm wrong but not why or even about what specifically, and I don't really see how what I'm saying is off topic since it's been a part of this thread since the first 4 pages.

Like these snide comments aren't adding anything to the conversation and are just kind of rude and basically what I have been talking about.

But look if something I said really bothered or offended you I'm sorry. I'm just trying to understand what that is.

[Kim]

I would argue that, despite that brief caveat, there's pretty heavy implication in your posts that conservatives are supporting things out of malice, especially becuase that seems to be what your justification for 'being a dick' is hanging on.

My justification for being a dick was, "You're supporting terrible shit." Intent never entered into it. Intent doesn't change the fact that they're supporting terrible shit. My justification also "hinged" on the fact that if you self-identify as a conservative you are choosing to associate yourself with people who support these policies. As a result, I'm not gonna feel to bad about you getting caught in the crossfire. I also clarified that, in spite of this, I generally don't make a habit of personally insulting specific conservatives for identifying as such so much as I insult them when they argue in favor of terrible policies, the reason being that they're still supporting terrible policies regardless of why.

But like, I don't know how many more times I have to say that before it actually sinks in.

a lot more of it was directed at him

At what point did I ever insult or mock dwmitch specifically?

The orphans bit was a pretty clear jab at what I could realistically see some conservatives arguing in the face of a claim that their philosophy is basically a screw you to orphans.

I guess I used sarcasm to point out the logical fallacy of, "If I can do it, anyone can"? That hardly seems directly insulting to dwmitch and is more a funny way of pointing out what was wrong with that post.

I made fun of anecdotal evidence. Once again, not a person insult. Rather it mocks a specific argument.

In fact, the worst example of a direct, personal insult in this thread comes from Marc.

The person I was most rude to was Aerozord, not dwmitch, and I honestly don't think I stepped out of line so much as I called him out for wasting everyone's time when he never had any intention of backing up any of his claims and accusations.

But hey, you wanna keep accusing me and others of being super-rude in a thread where the most blatantly insulting post was from someone getting mad that we weren't taking dwmitch's arguments seriously, feel free.

[Solid Snake]

So we need to disrespect people into converting? I understand the need to speak up and maybe even argue aggressively but are you seriously advocating bullying people into liberalism?

...It worked for me!
Although maybe I'm just a really terrible aberration and should be ignored

[Marc v4.0]

I didn't insult anyone, especially not to the level already being displayed, until you can go screw.

[Kim]

I didn't insult anyone, especially not to the level already being displayed, until you can go screw.

"LOL, I'm gonna pretend to agree with him but everyone knows I am making fun of him and it'll be funny because I have the maturity of a 5 year old".I didn't insult anyoneI have the maturity of a 5 year olddidn't insult anyone
.

[Archbio]

Ok well you're saying I'm wrong but not why or even about what specifically

I need to be very rigorous and specific in response to "but you're being mean?"

Like these snide comments aren't adding anything to the conversation

Oh, and lets not forget I should be more substantial in response to "but you're being mean."

just kind of rude and basically what I have been talking about.

Since what you're talking about is "some definition of niceness as Nique's metric of what is acceptable discourse" then yes, it probably is. Yet, it doesn't seem any more relevant or compelling as a totally unsurprising gotcha moment than it did before.

And you really don't see how "Nique: arbiter of niceness and tone" could be irritating?

[Nique]

I wasn't trying to back up everything Marc and Aerozord were saying, but anyway... To me it seems like you're being disingenuous now, so I'm gonna back out becuase I can't imagine that continuing this conversation is going to be productive.

And you really don't see how "Nique: arbiter of niceness and tone" could be irritating?

It was never my intention to say that I was somehow responsible for setting some kind of standard so if I gave that impression then I'm sorry.

[Kim]

I was never trying to back up everything Marc and Aerozord were saying, but anyway... To me it seems like you're being disingenuous now, so I'm gonna back out becuase I can't imagine that continuing this conversation is going to be productive.

Before backing out, please explain why you decided to include me in the "people directly insulting dwmitch" group despite the fact that I never did, all while ignoring that of all the people you listed, you failed to list the person who offered the most direct and personal insult in the thread.

Thanks in advance.

[Solid Snake]

I think we're all getting angry at each other over kooky semantics when we should be getting angry at Seil for posting an irrational picture that added nothing of value to the conversation for nonsensical reasons that I still can't quite comprehend.

...Oh God, where is the Seil icon.
DID YOU GUYS GET RID OF THE SEIL ICON WHILE I WAS GONE I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU IF YOU DID

[Nique]

Before backing out, please explain why you decided to include me in the "people directly insulting dwmitch" group despite the fact that I never did, all while ignoring that of all the people you listed, you failed to list the person who offered the most direct and personal insult in the thread.

Thanks in advance.

Every post replying to dwmitch or to anyone talking about his posts being sarcastic seemed to be nothing more than dismissive, derisive, mean, etc.

That's how it came across to me.

[Archbio]

I can't imagine that continuing this conversation is going to be productive.

I think we're all getting angry at each other over kooky semantics when we should be getting angry at Seil for posting an irrational picture that added nothing of value to the conversation for nonsensical reasons that I still can't quite comprehend.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2550/davidandjulieeisenhower.jpg

[Sifright]

Every post replying to dwmitch or to anyone talking about his posts being sarcastic seemed to be nothing more than dismissive, derisive, mean, etc.

That's how it came across to me.

but thats not true! Me and Liz agreed with everything he said like fo rizzles

[Kim]

Being dismissive of someone's arguments sure is on the same level, or worse, than directly and plainly calling someone a five year old.

Yup.

[Marc v4.0]

.

Yes, we already know the truth hurts very much.

[Sifright]

Yes, we already know the truth hurts very much.

oh look a troll how quaint.

[Nique]

I think we're all getting angry at each other over kooky semantics ...

The only person I'm kind of pissed at is Archbio but ...

No, yeah, you're right.

Arch, can I be the guy in the red shirt?

Being dismissive of someone's arguments sure is on the same level, or worse, than directly and plainly calling someone a five year old.

Yup.

Ok come on, man. I told you how it came across to me - Obviously you know what you meant better than I do and in spite of how rude I felt it was I have no illusions about trying to convince you to agree with my perspective.

Can we just call this off? Please?

[Kim]

Yes, we already know the truth hurts very much.

Thank you for continuing to invalidate every single time you've gotten mad at me for being insulting towards conservatives.

[Marc v4.0]

oh look a troll how quaint.

I'm not going to even pretend she wasn't trolling the ever living shit out of him with a huge smile, especially not when she's going to fall back on "But I wasn't being mean!" like we're all suddenly blind and struck dumb.

[Solid Snake]

Every post replying to dwmitch or to anyone talking about his posts being sarcastic seemed to be nothing more than dismissive, derisive, mean, etc.

That's how it came across to me.

Man that's kind of a broad brush to paint with, I mean I'll objectively concede there may have been a post or two there that was moderately inappropriate or a tad too inciteful but I really think the visceral reaction to your criticism is largely because you're insinuating that everyone who was having fun with the hypothetical of Liz being a conservative mother in some alternate universe, etc. was doing it out of a hatred for dwmitch himself.

I mean there's a fundamental difference between laughing at a person and laughing at his political positions or even finding fault with them. It seems like the overwhelming trend earlier in this topic was basically that we all thought dwmitch's narrative of "I'm a conservative because I'm comfortable picking myself off my bootstraps and living my own life barely above the poverty line" translated into terrible policy ramifications and was filled with all kinds of holes in logic, and I think the reactions of Liz and others were just playful ways to play off their incredulity, and I participated myself later on because I found the indulgence of a hypothetical in which I had "converted" Liz to Conservatism too fun to ignore.

But really there's rarely if ever an explicit insult directed at dwmitch in there and it didn't sound like dwmitch himself was threatened in any way, shape or form by our behavior and it's pretty common for newcomers in any community, from college frats and sororities to military bases to interwebs forums, to experience a bit of light ribbing when joining up. It's a fairly natural way for human beings to get to know each other, all things considered.

And maybe if Liz was like "dwmitch you are a fucking awful person never come to this forum again" I'd understand the reactions, but it seems like you and Marc have really been building mountains out of molehills here, perhaps ironically in a way many of you have previously accused Liz herself of building mountains out of molehills in a desperate attempt to make a case that just isn't factually supported to the extent your emotions have dictated it should be.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Guys I've got a deal. Conservatives be nice to blacks and gays and women and the poor and I'll be nice to them. Sorted.

[Krylo]

...Oh God, where is the Seil icon.
DID YOU GUYS GET RID OF THE SEIL ICON WHILE I WAS GONE I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU IF YOU DID

People were just using it for dumbposts instead of dumbinaspecificallyseilkindofwayposts. Seil, however, uses it only, and usually, when he Seil posts. Showing that the only person who should be allowed access to the Seil tag is Seil. Thus it was made so.

[Archbio]

I'm not going to even pretend she wasn't trolling the ever living shit out of him with a huge smile, especially not when she's going to fall back on "But I wasn't being mean!" like we're all suddenly blind and struck dumb.

"Mean" is such a great metric. Yup.

Real useful.

[Kim]

I'm not going to even pretend she wasn't trolling the ever living shit out of him with a huge smile, especially not when she's going to fall back on "But I wasn't being mean!" like we're all suddenly blind and struck dumb.

TBH I think I was actually unintentionally trolling you and RPG much more than dwmitch, because you two were ultimately more bothered by it than dwmitch ever was even when it was made clear that this was not, in fact, an accurate reflection of my opinions.

Beyond that, if you're going to hide behind, "Well, I'm right," as your excuse for directly insulting me, then you are pretty much conceding that I get to be a dick to conservatives because the insults I throw at them are pretty accurate.

Lately, though, when I directly insult a person, rather than simply mock and ridicule their arguments and beliefs for being terrible, I'm quick to at least own up to that fact and apologize. If you don't want to do that, fine, but keep in mind every previous instance where you proudly stand upon the moral highground for not being as "mean" as me is going right out the window in the process and I pretty much get free reign to flip you the bird whenever you bring it up from this point on.

[Solid Snake]

Seil, however, uses it only, and usually, when he Seil posts.

...I don't quite understand the discrepancy in semantics here. Doesn't Seil, by sheer nature of being Seil, always Seil-post? Or is Seil-post like a special kind of Seil post, and not all Seil posts can measure to the honor?

Like, when Seil posts, should he always use the Seil icon, because he's the one contributing his thoughts, and his thoughts are always Seil thoughts?
Or, when Seil posts, does he have to ask himself, "Is this sufficient to justify being a Seil post?" Does Seil have to objectively weigh whether a particular thought of his is sufficiently like him?

And isn't that a tad existential a problem to thrust in someone's direction? "Here is your icon; use it on all contributions you make that are sufficiently you." Man, if there was a 'Snake post' in existence out there that I'd have to selectively tag only to contributions of mine that were, like, sufficiently "Emo Wall of Text-y," holy shit, every posting experience of mine would be tempered by the obligation of deciphering whether my thoughts were sufficiently 'Snake-esque.'

...But how would I define a 'Snake-esque' post, anyway? Who defines what a 'Seil-post' is and isn't? Who would define similar boundaries for me? One user at NPF might think highly of me and say, "a Snake post is when Snake is all intelligent and rational and makes smart contributions in Walls of text that are fun to read." But another NPF user who, say, has played Mafia with Snake lately, might be like "Snake posts are when Snake bitches incoherently and riles himself up into a self-loathing whirlwind of misplaced anger." Which is true? Which definition should hold?

And if my thoughts weren't sufficiently Snake-esque, should I even bother posting at all? If my thoughts really aren't sufficient to label 'my own,' can I really label them as anything? Like if Seil's sitting down and he wants to create a new thread but it just isn't a 'Seil-post,' does he have to wait and get drunk or something until he's just Seil enough? What happens if Seil posts his thoughts and uses the Seil icon and moderators feel he's misused it? Can Seil actually be effectively overruled in determining his own posting style?

...These are the kinds of questions I ask when I'd like everyone to stop angrily yelling at each other and would rather everyone angrily yelled at me.

[Kim]

Every time Seil posts it is indeed a post by Seil, but that is not enough to qualify it as a Seil-Post, nor are people other than Seil and a few others really aware of just what makes a Seil-Post what it is.

[Gregness]

Man that's kind of a broad brush to paint with, I mean I'll objectively concede there may have been a post or two there that was moderately inappropriate or a tad too inciteful but I really think the visceral reaction to your criticism is largely because you're insinuating that everyone who was having fun with the hypothetical of Liz being a conservative mother in some alternate universe, etc. was doing it out of a hatred for dwmitch himself.

I mean there's a fundamental difference between laughing at a person and laughing at his political positions or even finding fault with them. It seems like the overwhelming trend earlier in this topic was basically that we all thought dwmitch's narrative of "I'm a conservative because I'm comfortable picking myself off my bootstraps and living my own life barely above the poverty line" translated into terrible policy ramifications and was filled with all kinds of holes in logic, and I think the reactions of Liz and others were just playful ways to play off their incredulity, and I participated myself later on because I found the indulgence of a hypothetical in which I had "converted" Liz to Conservatism too fun to ignore.

But really there's rarely if ever an explicit insult directed at dwmitch in there and it didn't sound like dwmitch himself was threatened in any way, shape or form by our behavior and it's pretty common for newcomers in any community, from college frats and sororities to military bases to interwebs forums, to experience a bit of light ribbing when joining up. It's a fairly natural way for human beings to get to know each other, all things considered.

And maybe if Liz was like "dwmitch you are a fucking awful person never come to this forum again" I'd understand the reactions, but it seems like you and Marc have really been building mountains out of molehills here, perhaps ironically in a way many of you have previously accused Liz herself of building mountains out of molehills in a desperate attempt to make a case that just isn't factually supported to the extent your emotions have dictated it should be.

I would submit that this is exactly the type of thing that we have post icons for. A simple use of the "fun" or "wtf" tag might have helped those posts get across better and just generally might have kept this from being an issue.

[Solid Snake]

Every time Seil posts it is indeed a post by Seil, but that is not enough to qualify it as a Seil-Post, nor are people other than Seil and a few others really aware of just what makes a Seil-Post what it is.

How would a Seil-post be defined, though? Aren't there any intelligible traits or common threads of logic we could find through a thorough analysis of his Seil-posts?

...This is what we should do now, instead of arguing over this. We must investigate and determine exactly what elements embody a Seil-post.

...At this point I'm just desperate to procrastinate from studying, don't mind me

[Kim]

Technically I should have used lolitrollu, but that seems so self-defeating.

[Solid Snake]

Technically I should have used lolitrollu, but that seems so self-defeating.

Honestly Liz you should just keep the Himari avatar because while I can't speak for anyone else you could totally get away with saying just about anything to me and I'd give you a free pass because Himari was in your avatar and who could hate anything associated with Himari.

...Oh, Himari, why are you so the embodiment of all that is adorable in fiction!

[Marc v4.0]

The best part. THE BEST PART.

Pretending you've never once insulted me at all so that reality fits this scenario where I have so horribly wronged you by this action.

It's like the past doesn't exist at all and action/reaction only begins at the point that is most advantageous for you! Hurrah!


Yeah, I can own up that I'm being a pretty big shit here. I can do that right now and every day after, but does it really make any difference owning it? Other than a notion that it makes it 'ok' to admit you were being a dick? What has changed when a person owns up and continues to do it in spite of the admission? It's lip service, nothing but fluff. If that is what you want, though..

[Solid Snake]

...Marc has fallen into the void of "where Snake was when he playing that Mafia game recently."
Based on personal experience I can definitively say that everything you type will be construed as an attack, insult, or flippant comment against his value.
Also any attempt you make to change the subject or have a rational discussion with him will be ignored, because he is on a crusade and he will not rest until he's finished.

...It's a fun place to be, though! Hopefully next time Marc and I will be there at the exact same time and we can have a pity party or scream irrationally at cardboard cutouts of our least favorite NPF users or something.

[Kim]

I have turned Marc into me.

All according to keikaku.

[Marc v4.0]

...Marc has fallen into the void of "where Snake was when he playing that Mafia game recently."
Based on personal experience I can definitively say that everything you type will be construed as an attack, insult, or flippant comment against his value.
Also any attempt you make to change the subject or have a rational discussion with him will be ignored, because he is on a crusade and he will not rest until he's finished.

...It's a fun place to be, though! Hopefully next time Marc and I will be there at the exact same time and we can have a pity party or scream irrationally at cardboard cutouts of our least favorite NPF users or something.

I am certainly not you, Snake. :D

[Solid Snake]

I am certainly not you, Snake. :D

...You lack my brilliant sense of humor, it seems. =/

Here comes a wall of text in which I despair for the state of humor in contemporary society
...Nah, on second thought I'll have to pass on that one

[Marc v4.0]

...You lack my brilliant sense of humor, it seems. =/

Here comes a wall of text in which I despair for the state of humor in contemporary society
...Nah, on second thought I'll have to pass on that one


But Snake..think of the children!

[Kim]

The best part. THE BEST PART.

Pretending you've never once insulted me at all so that reality fits this scenario where I have so horribly wronged you by this action.

It's like the past doesn't exist at all and action/reaction only begins at the point that is most advantageous for you! Hurrah!

Except not really. I'm just pointing out that you're doing the exact same shit you always get mad at me for doing, in a discussion where I haven't done it.

At this point I am just waiting for Marc to implode from his own rage.

Like a really angry sun.

[Kim]

http://i44.tinypic.com/bed1xg.png

[Solid Snake]

I know you're making all these lovely posts, Liz, but all I keep seeing is that Himari avatar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNLJDR-XbVY&feature=related)

[Marc v4.0]

Honestly, how mad do you get from posting that makes you think I am SO SUPER MAD ANGRY SUN RAWR right now?

[Solid Snake]

Hey Marc

Psstt buddy, over here

I have secret (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsY6q42_3oQ&feature=related) weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSWgrlGyUpY&feature=related) in my possession that you can totally employ to utterly destroy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzyapTP6CCM&feature=related) Liz's psyche and completely remove her from any argument you may have because she's too busy blithering in a corner about how miserable (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL5v2BRJyMY) existence is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs-VbwyGVwY) and how beautiful Mawaru is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jk75n5Db5Q) and oh God what if the penguins are SPOILERS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D437f-iqK0s) sssssooooo sad

...Now I've given you all the weapons you need to defeat Liz in battle. Just copy and paste those links whenever she irritates you and I'll receive an IM about five minutes later from her sobbing uncontrollably.

Oh but here's my favorite Mawaru video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RATmjyTURc) on a slightly lighter (if no less confusing to newcomers) note.

[Marc v4.0]

You scare me

[Kim]

Honestly, how mad do you get from posting that makes you think I am SO SUPER MAD ANGRY SUN RAWR right now?

I guess I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the reason you directly insulted me and then proceeded to say, "It's okay if I directly insult you cuz it's true so THERE," is because you lost your temper. If that is not the case, then I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Solid Snake]

You scare me

Man, I try to help a guy out and this is the thanks I get?
...Watch Mawaru and then you'd under...

Wait.
This is exactly what we need.
Mawaru viewing nightly in the NPF chat!

Holy shit we'd all be sobbing so uncontrollably and reminiscing over the futility of existence and the damnation of fate every night we'd never argue again

[MSperoni]

I think this thread has done been derailed. To the Xtreme.

[rpgdemon]

I guess I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the reason you directly insulted me and then proceeded to say, "It's okay if I directly insult you cuz it's true so THERE," is because you lost your temper. If that is not the case, then I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Wait, wait, wait. You're angry about that. When you do that, every time you insult anyone.

Like, what the fuck? That IS how NPF treats people, when they disagree with them. You guys justify hating anyone who says anything conservative, under the exact same logic.

[rpgdemon]

TBH I think I was actually unintentionally trolling you and RPG much more than dwmitch, because you two were ultimately more bothered by it than dwmitch ever was even when it was made clear that this was not, in fact, an accurate reflection of my opinions.

Wait wait wait, what?

I've been avoiding this cesspool of a thread except for just now because I click the button to get it to stop flagging as a new post, and saw the latest posts.