A conversation about conversations about bigotry [Archive]

Pip Boy

07-29-2012, 04:59 AM

*Sigh*

I really wanted to be done with this and just leave, but I've had a few people contacting me through IM (mostly in regards to (their words) "Liz's blatant trolling") and I want to publicly set the record straight so people can stop asking me about it individually.

If I did say anything that could come across as biggoted, it was a matter of ignorance and mild insensitivity at the worst and never of malice or spite, as is often the case with racism. See, where I come from, homosexuals aren't given dirty looks or voted against, they're beaten openly in something of a local sport referred to as "gaybashing". Any intelligent and moral person can identify this behavior as reprehensible, and so obviously I've no support for it at all, but when the narrative for hatred of the minority is so clearly set, the small offense of being slightly skeptical when asked to join a boycott is negligible. Silly even.

The second point I'd like to make, Liz, is that your chlidish self-image of being some crusading white-knight alerting us all of the dangers of "the man" and of society getting us down is, while I would hope done with the best intentions, completely wrong. You've been openly spiteful and malicious towards me ever since I said a few words of hesitation at joining a boycott you demanded everyone join with almost no case to support it (at the time I initially made those comments).

Ever since then you have willfully misinterpereted everything I say to make me out to be some kind of horrendous strawman, going well outside of the bounds of responsible and respectable behavior in doing so, our moderators' forgiveness of which is a part of the reason I have chosen to leave. The fact that such childish behavior is permitted to happen time after time after time in such a fasion with a slap on the wrist at worst is a complete and utter failure on part of our forum's moderation staff. I'm not saying I'm 100% clean in this, after you began your sad crusade to torch the strawman you've crafted in my image, the cynic in me took over and decided that any constructive point I tried to make would be willfully misused anyway, so I resorted to some admittedly tongue-in-cheek and sometimes rude behavior. I'll admit to that. Maybe even a few days' ban, not that it'd mean anything at this point, would be in order for that.

The fact remains, however, that your selfish and egotistical attitude has become such a nuisance that it has caused at least 2 forum members to openly tell you to "fuck off" and leave, while many more do so in a more subtle fashion. You go well out of your way to look for a cause to advocate, and then jump the gun calling for a boycott whilst calling "biggot" every time someone says "wait, lets see what this is really all about first". Every time someone would say we try to make sure we've got our facts straight, you'd simply flame them and accuse them of oppression. You're like a liberal version of fox news, and frankly I'm sick and fucking tired of it.

I'd like to note on my way out that this isn't a call for the mods to ban Liz, or backseat moderating or anything. I'm leaving so frankly I don't give two shits whether Liz gets a few days in time out or a shiny new sheriff's badge. I can remember a point in time, however, where double-posting against the will of Fenris got me a 3 day ban, and now this kind of blatant flaming and openly malicious treatment of forum members has become excusable. I am not contesting my ban in this, I had it coming, but this double-standard I seem to be faced with is shit, and when it comes down to it I guess thats why I'm going. I have said all I am going to say on the matter. Please do not contact me on steam or otherwise regarding this matter anymore.

MuMu

07-29-2012, 08:06 AM

This is unrelated to the other two dorks leaving NPF but I'm thinking of taking some time off too. Since I never post this means I won't be in the chats anymore(as I already am doing for the last days). Place is getting too srsbznz for me and this just isn't the kinda of thing I'm looking for in the webs.

Kim

07-29-2012, 08:11 AM

Protip: The best way to get me to not call you a bigot is for you to not say bigoted things.

Also, throwing a tantrum over the Atlus thread wherein people explained, repeatedly, what was wrong with people's behavior there is the height of hilarity, as is complaining about a double standard bias in favor of me because you got a three day ban when the last ban I got was an entire month.

If this shit is the reason you're leaving, more power to you. I don't see this forum experiencing any benefit from someone staying who thinks wanting to lock up mentally ill people and give them dirty looks is an A-OK thing to advocate.

shiney

07-29-2012, 08:30 AM

Seeya Pip, others. I am fed up too and taking a while off. Might be back. Might not. So I will say.

As a user...not an admin...liz, you're an asshole. You're self-righteous and a jerk. You have the moral high ground and you have the right view of equality and you use this position to attack and belittle people with whom you disagree. You could easily use that capital in a generous way but no. Just fuckrage all the time. 90% of our reported posts are about your crusades. Either your posts or those arguing yours. There is a limit to how much I want to deal with. We take bigotry and whatever seriously, I am sure you've seen all the defense and deference you've been given. I don't want to disrespect my mod team but I'm sick of this forum being one giant argument in every thread.

I'll see you guys when this forum remembers actual fun and arguments can be civil. Too much to ask for some.

Kim

07-29-2012, 08:55 AM

As a user...not an admin...liz, you're an asshole. You're self-righteous and a jerk. You have the moral high ground and you have the right view of equality and you use this position to attack and belittle people with whom you disagree.

I use it to call out people on their bullshit.

When Bells makes a post basically saying, "All asians look the same lol," yeah I'm gonna call him out on that and I'm not going to be particularly nice about it. At the same time, I didn't go out of my way to make it overly personal, which I would have if I was intending to belittle people as you seem to think.

When Pip talks about rounding up all the crazies and locking them up and giving them dirty looks, I'm going to call him out on that.

When people resort to tone argument, dismissive attitudes, and the same tired cliches of privileged derailing I've seen time and time again because they don't take what I'm saying seriously, I'm going to call them out on that.

If I wanted to belittle them, I could and would. I could be much meaner about it. I'm exactly as mean as I need to be. "Hey! You said this awful thing! What the fuck." When I feel it's necessary, I also add, "Here is why this awful fucking thing you said was an awful fucking thing."

Why am I dismissive towards people I disagree with? Because the people I disagree with all tend to be reading from the same script. There are fucking bingo cards because this shit comes up so often.

It's not me being an asshole. It's me not pretending that people abusing their privilege and reading from a script are doing anything more than that.

You could easily use that capital in a generous way but no. Just fuckrage all the time.

I'm plenty pleasant and generous. There are loads of examples of this. I'm not pleasant and generous to bigots and people who abuse their privilege, but I really fail to see why I ought to be so long as I don't cross the line.

90% of our reported posts are about your crusades. Either your posts or those arguing yours.

Other people's posts aren't my problem. Blaming them on me is bullshit.

We take bigotry and whatever seriously

This is a laugh.

The thread where I was last banned was one giant bag of anti-Islam bigotry where an admin told me I wasn't allowed to tell people the things they said were racist, even though the things they said were racist.

Pip just recently talked about rounding up people with mental disabilities, locking them up, and giving them dirty looks. He wasn't punished at all for that. (Note: This isn't a call for him to be punished for it. He's leaving. I don't give a fuck.)

Here's the thing: If you're going to take bigotry seriously, you can't just say that you do. You have to actually show it. Mods telling people they aren't allowed to call out racism, something that happened to people other than me as well, and plain ignoring ableist bigotry that drove a forum member away. People didn't seem to give a fuck when bigotry made a member regret coming back. But I was mean to the person who was bigoted, and we all gotta let me know I'm an asshole for that.

You don't take bigotry seriously. You never have. There've been only minor improvements in this respect since you last argued that "people don't have a right to not be offended."

Here's the reality of the situation, Shiney. You mildly care about bigotry when it's brought to your attention by someone else. That's not taking bigotry seriously. That's sitting on the couch and going, "That's bullshit," when you hear about someone being bigoted on TV. They aren't the same. They never have been.

Arcanum

07-29-2012, 09:34 AM

It's funny because you're doing this again:
you use this position to attack and belittle people with whom you disagree.

It's not me being an asshole

This actually explains a lot. You just genuinely don't realize when you're being an asshole.

Kim

07-29-2012, 09:43 AM

It's funny because several people resorted to outright insults in this thread and none of them were me.

Ryong

07-29-2012, 10:34 AM

Just because there are OTHER assholes doesn't mean you're not being one.

Kim

07-29-2012, 10:39 AM

Except I'm the only one being called out on it, despite not resorting to the behavior the others are.

So, there's that.

EDIT: Like, if the person not resorting to really overtly shitty behavior is the only on being called an asshole, then it stands to reason that the people who are calling that person an asshole have really shitty standards of what constitutes being an asshole. If everyone's calling an apple an orange, they aren't qualified to tell someone whether or not they're holding an orange, regardless of whether or not they're holding an orange.

Ryong

07-29-2012, 10:50 AM

Because the fact that you're not being an asshole at this exact moment clearly means you never were an asshole, right?

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:02 AM

Well, I've hardly been posting lately and what I have posted has been completely in line.

If we're going to say that I'm an asshole forever because I was an asshole in the past, then literally everyone in this forum is an asshole forever.

Honestly, I'm a bit sick and tired of everyone getting to throw as many direct insults at me as they want and me just having to sit here and deal with it, so how about you knock that off.

Red Fighter 1073

07-29-2012, 11:14 AM

Except I'm the only one being called out on it, despite not resorting to the behavior the others are.

Except I got banned, Greed got banned, Pip got banned, SMB got banned, Sif got banned. The major major difference is that I assume that at least most of us actually realized we were being assholes. You constantly have this sense of standing on some moral high ground where nothing you say is ever wrong and if anyone has a different opinion than you and actually dares to debate with you, then you'll just keep shouting about how your opinion about an ambiguous matter is the only correct one until they either get sick of you and leave the thread or the thread implodes and the mods have to step in and close the thread.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 11:16 AM

Honestly, I'm a bit sick and tired of everyone getting to throw as many direct insults at me as they want and me just having to sit here and deal with it, so how about you knock that off.

Honestly, you typically do your fair share of throwing direct insults at other people and them just sitting there and dealing with it, so perhaps we could all just stop being assholes to each other.

This debacle makes me sick. Both sides are completely and utterly in the wrong and the headache that is being induced by trying to sort this out is astronomical.

@Liz: I don't understand what the fuck is so difficult about not being as obstinate and as cruel as possible to people you disagree with, but it is a long-standing problem that you've been called out on before with absolutely no earnest effort to improve.

And this is the fucking worst part about moderating Liz, is that she always comes from the correct moral side of the debate. People should really stop saying bigotted things. Intent doesn't matter in terms of bigotry; most bigots don't mean to be bigots. It's a matter of noticing that "oh hey it's actually kind of fucked up for me to have these views" and then doing something about having those views.

On the flip side of that I don't want NPF to become some sort of place where nobody can ever crack a joke for fear of offending anybody. I think that common sense and tastefulness honestly do have a place in regards to whether or not to get out the CIVIL RIGHTS banners. And this is where Liz and I completely disagree, and that's cool too. Just stop having disagreements in the most disrespectful way possible and I think some serious strides can be made towards maybe repairing the rift that has come into our community.

This thread is a shitshow and I don't know what to do about it any more.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 11:26 AM

Oh, and one more thing:

It is not and has never been your job to take people to task for being bigots on NPF, Liz. That is my job.

Next time, report the post before jumping down somebody's throat, and move on. Whether or not action is taken about it is not your place to decide, and you don't need to agree with the action that is taken but posts that specifically cite you as the reason for leaving the forums need to stop happening, and it is entirely and 100% your fault that they are.

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:27 AM

On the flip side of that I don't want NPF to become some sort of place where nobody can ever crack a joke for fear of offending anybody.

I'm all for people cracking jokes.

I just don't see why people feel the need to protect racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally otherwise bigoted jokes.

Even jokes contribute to cultures and mentalities that in turn oppress minorities.

There's no middle ground for playing this game. There's either you are okay with allowing behavior that contributes to the existing status quo of oppression or you are not okay with allowing behavior that contributes to the existing status quo of oppression.

There's no argument that changes these basic facts.

You can't protect Bells' right to make racist jokes about asians and then pretend this forum is super progress and is seriously against bigotry.

Oh, and one more thing:

It is not and has never been your job to take people to task for being bigots on NPF, Liz. That is my job.

Next time, report the post before jumping down somebody's throat, and move on. Whether or not action is taken about it is not your place to decide, and you don't need to agree with the action that is taken but posts that specifically cite you as the reason for leaving the forums need to stop happening, and it is entirely and 100% your fault that they are.

You're bad at your job then, because you have never in the history of NPF given anyone the impression you actually care about stopping bigotry, and have actively and recently defended racism and told members (who aren't me!) that they aren't allowed to keep calling stuff racist because you (enlightened white man that you are) disagree.

You don't get to be the one to decide what's bigoted or not.

If you care about bigotry, you care only to the extent that you don't want to hear about it.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 11:30 AM

There's no middle ground for playing this game.

Yes, there is, and that is where we disagree. If you want a kind of place where there is no middle ground for playing this game, well, congrats, you already have one somewhere else. That place is not here and will never be here, so stop trying to make it here.

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:31 AM

Yes, there is, and that is where we disagree. If you want a kind of place where there is no middle ground for playing this game, well, congrats, you already have one somewhere else. That place is not here and will never be here, so stop trying to make it here.

Then you are on the side of bigotry. If you're pro-racist jokes, then you are pro-racism. If you are pro-sexist jokes, then you are pro-sexism. If you are pro-homophobic jokes, you are pro-homophobia. Etc etc and into infinity.

EDIT: A guy who thinks racist jokes are totally A-OK lololol asians can't drive lololol shouldn't be the one deciding what's bigoted or not. This isn't complicated.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 11:33 AM

You're bad at your job then...
I'm not arguing that, and that will not become the focus of this conversation. This is a discussion for another time.

You don't get to be the one to decide what's bigoted or not.

I don't, and I never claimed I did. I get to decide what to do with the people making the comments in question, but I do not get to decide whether or not somebody else was offended by it.

Azisien

07-29-2012, 11:35 AM

I'm all for people cracking jokes.

For instance, the past three pages of this thread!

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:35 AM

I don't, and I never claimed I did. I get to decide what to do with the people making the comments in question, but I do not get to decide whether or not somebody else was offended by it.

You've actively sought to shut down criticism of bigoted media in the past because you disagree.

That is straight up you deciding what's bigoted and ruling according to it.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 11:37 AM

Then you are on the side of bigotry. If you're pro-racist jokes, then you are pro-racism. If you are pro-sexist jokes, then you are pro-sexism. If you are pro-homophobic jokes, you are pro-homophobia. Etc etc and into infinity.

EDIT: A guy who thinks racist jokes are totally A-OK lololol asians can't drive lololol shouldn't be the one deciding what's bigoted or not. This isn't complicated.

It's infinitely more complicated than you're willing to admit. But hey, this is my clubhouse so if you don't like it, you're welcome to go somewhere else, as three or four people have done as a direct response to how loudly you don't like my clubhouse.

You've actively sought to shut down criticism of bigoted media in the past because you disagree.Probably true, but

That is straight up you deciding what's bigoted and ruling according to it.

This isn't. True, that is. I'm ruling according to what I think is the right action to take. That is not the same thing as deciding what is or what is not bigoted.

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:38 AM

It's infinitely more complicated than you're willing to admit.

It's actually not!

Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about regarding these issues agrees on this!

This is why when Saturday Night Live puts out a transphobic sketch, there are trans rights groups calling it out!

This is why when people make a homophobic Superbowl ad, there are gay groups calling it out!

Because what you say contributes to an environment! Environment contributes to behavior! Etc and so on in a recursive, bigoted loop that spirals on into infinity. Protecting bigoted speech is protecting speech that contribute to bigoted environments and encourage bigoted behavior.

This isn't. True, that is. I'm ruling according to what I think is the right action to take. That is not the same thing as deciding what is or what is not bigoted.

When you shut down discussion because you think something isn't racist, then you are shutting down discussion because you've decided whether or not something's bigoted.

Overcast

07-29-2012, 11:38 AM

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:40 AM

I've always believed a genuinely humorous joke at the expense of any group helps deflate bigotry by reducing the serious nature of the topic thus weakening both those who genuinely believe the joke's contents, and those unwilling to admit to allow themselves to be belittled in any way.

Nope.

Bigoted jokes contribute to bigotry because it creates an idea of what kind of bigotry is "okay". "Well, I can't say I hate asians, but I can say they're shitty drivers!" Meanwhile, these things promote stereotypes that affect how people behave in their day to day lives.

EDIT: Expanding on this, you are essentially creating safe speech for bigots, giving them behavior they can hide behind, and laughing along with them and telling them their bigotry is okay because hey you aren't ______ so it doesn't hurt you. And yes, there are members of oppressed groups who think such behavior is okay, but they tend to be the ones most disconnected from fighting for the rights of the groups they are a part of.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 11:46 AM

It's actually not!
The world isn't black and white. There exists a rather vast nebulous realm of whether or not something is actually bigoted. You do an excellent job of creating examples that are pretty clearly bigotted but in reality, statements mean different things to different people.

Overcast

07-29-2012, 11:50 AM

shiney

07-29-2012, 11:55 AM

Yes you do! You'll be protected so hard that pretty soon everyone will be gone and the silence will mean you've won.

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:57 AM

There exists a rather vast nebulous realm of whether or not something is actually bigoted.

You have provided literally zero argument that this is the case other than your say-so.

Environment isn't just the people in a particular sphere. It's how they choose to act in that sphere and how that sphere influences them. I think everyone who has been a longtime member of NPF can attest to how the forum has influenced them over the years.

So, let's throw bigoted jokes into the mixture. You then have bigoted jokes influencing how people behave and think. What's more, because this is a big happy environment full of friends and all that sassy jazz, the environment more easily influences the people in it. Your friends influence you more than that fucker who lives down the street and backed into your car that one time.

You are saying, as a white, het, cis-man, that you are A-OK with bigoted jokes. Of course you are. They don't really ever apply to you. Even had I a handy bag of anti-het joke cards, they lack the same power because they aren't as spread throughout the culture. There aren't billions of jokes relying on ignorant stereotypes of hets. Why? Because hets have the power. Bigoted jokes are, typically, jokes at the expense of the underprivileged by those with privilege. Anything contrary to this is the exception. Not the rule.

So, let's add all this up real quick before I move on. You're defending jokes made from positions of privilege at the expense of the underprivileged, even though these jokes will without a doubt influence both the environment of the forum and the members.

Perhaps, though, you still think that's A-OK. As I mentioned above, they also give bigots behavior to hide behind. They have a set list of "okay" ways they can be bigoted. Not only will these ways of being bigoted not get them in trouble, but they will be embraced by privileged people who tell themselves that they aren't bigoted. People like yourself. When you allow, defend, and go along with bigoted jokes, you are both aiding bigots and making them feel that their bigotry is perfectly okay and acceptable so long as they don't cross an imaginary line that you've set. Your previous refusal to take serious claims of bigotry in media, for example, gives me the impression that this line is going to give the bigots a fuck of a lot of leeway.

These are some very good, very basic reasons for why bigoted jokes aren't okay and shouldn't be allowed. Unless you have an argument that isn't just Argument From Privilege as for why this gray area of yours still exists in this scenario, then you can't keep hiding behind it.

Overcast

07-29-2012, 11:58 AM

shiny as much as I enjoy a clever quip I feel like it would be best if we approached this with as little snideness as possible. Tough as that may be. xB

Kim

07-29-2012, 11:58 AM

Yes you do! You'll be protected so hard that pretty soon everyone will be gone and the silence will mean you've won.

Hey, you're doing a shitty job at that "Not Be A Dick" thing you just told everyone to do.

Maybe you should try again and not be a dick.

Kim

07-29-2012, 12:02 PM

Censorship gives these stereotypes power though. They actively enforce to the groups inside that if a joke is not allowed to be done about this it is a serious enough stereotype to avoid said action. A black man can;t order fried chicken, a gay man can't enjoy a dance club, ect. To disarm the sting of these stereotypes require that you allow them to be jokable.

The people who believe this are not averse to fighting for their rights but do not want to be treated like they are special. I am just another human being just like you and I don't need anyone to protect me from reality.

Actually, the jokes help keep the stereotypes in public consciousness long after whatever inspired the stereotypes ceases to be relevant. If there weren't fried chicken jokes still being made, many fewer people would even know the stereotype exists. The fewer people are aware of a stereotype, the less power that stereotype has, because no one is promoting it. The less power and less prevalence a stereotype has, the easier it is to do these things without fear that you're "promoting the stereotype."

EDIT: Let me also just add the moment I hear people arguing that if they don't want those jokes being made they should stop promoting the stereotype those jokes are about is the moment your argument ceases to work Overcast. I've heard it a lot.

Overcast

07-29-2012, 12:05 PM

I'll note I agree with fenris and I am:
Openly gay
Multiracial, many different minority groups.
A military member
Raised in a under $14k annual income household

Privilage was something I had very little of. In at least one instance you made hatful bigoted remarks on my lifestyle as a military member. Is that right to you?

Osterbaum

07-29-2012, 12:07 PM

See, where I come from, homosexuals aren't given dirty looks or voted against, they're beaten openly in something of a local sport referred to as "gaybashing". Any intelligent and moral person can identify this behavior as reprehensible, and so obviously I've no support for it at all, but when the narrative for hatred of the minority is so clearly set, the small offense of being slightly skeptical when asked to join a boycott is negligible. Silly even.
Look the thing is, that just because you've managed to be a lot less intolerant than your environment is (which is obviously a good thing), doesn't make any ignorant or offensive stuff you do say not be ignorant or offensive just because you're used to hearing worse. Now while I don't think anyone is under any obligation to act nicely towards anyone saying bigoted, privileged stuff I also don't think it's any kind of requirement to be an asshole towards them.

And look, your feelings getting hurt is a lot less of an issue that the kind of attitude that allows for the oppression of huge groups of people. Your feelings aren't insignificant, nor does anyone have any more right to outright call you names or anything, but they do have the right to call out what you post as bullshit. There is a difference between calling you an asshole and calling what you're saying bullshit. I'm not saying nobody, including Liz, has ever crossed this line, but let's just make the distinction clear.

Now it's a bit of a different branch of the main debate, but I'm just going to add that personally I don't think attacking others for their ignorance is the right way to go while I simultaneously don't think that anyone is required to tolerate bigotry in any of it's forms.

e:
In at least one instance you made hatful bigoted remarks on my lifestyle as a military member.
Being the member of or rather working for the military does not put you in a position of being constantly oppressed. Members of the military are not in a position in society where they constantly have to deal with oppression or anything like that. I'm just saying this is bad example.

e2: I'd like to quote someone else here:
Throwing Liz's history back in her face when she has openly regretted her temper at times is a shitty thing to do. Using that as a means to attack Liz, when Liz is usually right, also a shitty thing to do. I don't want to see, "Liz has a temper," becoming an excuse to ignore what Liz says. Liz has problems, I have problems, we all have problems.
I think this is relevant here as well.

Now I don't always like the way Liz handles arguments with people or telling people off for their opinions, but I read this thread and I remember all previous instances where Liz has told people off or where we've discussed Liz's behavior and the overall feeling I'm getting here that by the end of the day, Liz might some times be less than polite about the way she handles things, but I'm much more upset by bigotry than I am by someone insulting someone for their bigotry. And shit, Liz has in almost all occasions presented multiple arguments for why what someone is saying is bigoted and then explained those arguments further and most of the time the only response to this is basically along the lines of either just continuing to ignore all of it in favor of maintaining your precious world view wherein you're never bigoted even by accident or just dismissing it because insults!

Anyone arguing from a position of privilege and making bigoted comments (whether they realize they're being bigoted or not) getting insulted for their bigotry is suffering a lot less than anyone who is the (unintended) victim of said bigotry. Overall instead of concentrating on being all "huff-puff I do not deserve to be insulted" about it, it might be a good thing to just take a moment and wonder exactly what about what you said is getting other people so worked up.

e3: I'm sorry if this post is a bit of a mess of different arguments, but I'm pretty tired and I'm having trouble organizing all of it coherently since a lot more stuff just keeps popping in to my mind about all this while I write.

synkr0nized

07-29-2012, 12:08 PM

Hey, you know how you've often been asked to be more polite when making your points? Even in threads where you point out how some types of jokes are part of the problem despite what folks might think? And then you go and post things like that and feel fine insulting mod staff.

Take care, Liz. Enjoy the Internet!

Kim

07-29-2012, 12:09 PM

Overcast

07-29-2012, 12:12 PM

I was really hoping to discuss this further. But I guess you have to do your job. Talk to you later Liz.

Oster I am not sure how your country feels about their military bjt I'm ready to ask you, do people ever scream murderer at them at their homecoming? Has anyone ever picketed a military funeral there? Are your military members harassed by at times riotous foreign and domestic parties? Do people leave their spouses jjust because they joined.

I have seen all these things. My people don't like us, and those that do can be just as ignorant. It is still bigotry in my eyes.

Pip Boy

07-29-2012, 12:15 PM

Liz, I'd like to challenge you to link every/any biggoted thing I've said. Go ahead. Go to my profile page, look in my recent posts, I'm sure you'll find plenty of the ones you've been crying wolf about.

The point is that upon close inspection, none of my posts have the sort of content you've been ranting and raving about. I never said we should "lock up all the crazy people and give them dirty looks". I said we should "lock up animalistic people who kill 13 people and give them dirty looks". I have a great deal of sympathy, nay even empathy, for America's crazies, being that I was diagnosed with OCD when I was four years old and have seen a psychiatrists on and off all my life. I know how shitty our mental health system is. I've participated in it. No amount of bad mental health care justifies mass murder though. No amount of people telling you you're awkward or antisocial will ever justify ending 13 lives and changing many more irreparably.

Despite this, you seem to willfully warp anything I say into something that it, ultimately, is not. In one case this was even done in a post where I tried to help your cause and was called an "arrogant entitled white person who is telling you what to do". You craft a boogeyman so you can yell "biggot" at it and get mad at anyone who doesn't join you. Your moral high ground is a fabricated one, a farce. You superficially support a good cause but then you bastardize it into something as bad as what you claim to be fighting against. Its childish, and it needs to stop. Grow up.

synkr0nized

07-29-2012, 12:15 PM

Now I can't 'cause that post was deleted.
We'll see.

edit: OK yeah I'm going through with it regardless. Liz liking to point out flaws and insult other members isn't limited to one deleted post.

Pip Boy

07-29-2012, 12:17 PM

Now I can't 'cause that post was deleted.
We'll see.

Check liz's posts following, Im sure it was quoted.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 12:19 PM

Check liz's posts following, Im sure it was quoted.

It wasn't, 'cause shiney deleted the replies as well in an attempt to salvage this conversation.

But for transparency's sake, I went ahead and put them all back.

Token

07-29-2012, 12:21 PM

If you're pro-racist jokes, then you are pro-racism.

I'm black. I make black jokes all the time. I'm disabled, I make disabled jokes. Gay, I make gay jokes. Does that make me a bigot, or is that me finding humor in a situation that sucks more often than not?

One of the issues I've had here for a while is that there should be a middle ground, but NPF as a whole can't seem to find it. It seems like everyone picks extremes- you're either against any joke that could potentially be seen as offensive, or you don't know where the line is, and feel there's nothing wrong with always crossing it.

It's just a shitty environment for absolutely fucking everyone, and I really don't know why the hell you all do it to yourselves. All I know is that y'all ign'ant ass niggas is been nothing but absolute retards for a couple of years now, and I'm fed the fuck up with everyone.

Should have just let the forum die when Brian was done with it.

Token

07-29-2012, 12:23 PM

Fenris

07-29-2012, 12:25 PM

In case that sounded like my biggest problem was with Liz not finding certain topics funny, it's not. The fact of the matter is that a lot of the times, she's right, and some of you really are ignorant queefstains. Only reason I specifically responded to that post is because it's where I stopped reading because I know you're all just having the same circular fucking argument you always have.

It's posts like these that are the reason that Token is, and always will be, the best member.

I feel like if there's any one thing we've established in this thread, this is it.

Overcast

07-29-2012, 12:25 PM

I get it Token. Not leaving myself though, but as is usual for me I'll keep avoiding most common discussion and rot in my fantasy ridden rp section where people think I'm a creep anyway but I've found no pleasing alternative.

Marelo

07-29-2012, 12:44 PM

Censorship gives these stereotypes power though. They actively enforce to the groups inside that if a joke is not allowed to be done about this it is a serious enough stereotype to avoid said action. A black man can;t order fried chicken, a gay man can't enjoy a dance club, ect. To disarm the sting of these stereotypes require that you allow them to be jokable.

The people who believe this are not averse to fighting for their rights but do not want to be treated like they are special. I am just another human being just like you and I don't need anyone to protect me from reality.

Entirely disconnected from discussions of Liz's behavior in other regards, I just want to point out that what she's doing does not and cannot constitute censorship.

Calling something out as offensive and harmful, explaining why, and expressing a desire that it cease to be said are not the same thing as forcefully removing the ability to say it.

So I hope you don't think I'm being unreasonable when I express a desire that you not use words like "censorship" to describe the general kind of advocacy that says bigoted jokes aren't okay. That vein of advocacy is an attempt at shifting discourse, not suppressing it.

Osterbaum

07-29-2012, 12:52 PM

Oster I am not sure how your country feels about their military bjt I'm ready to ask you, do people ever scream murderer at them at their homecoming? Has anyone ever picketed a military funeral there? Are your military members harassed by at times riotous foreign and domestic parties? Do people leave their spouses jjust because they joined.
Well we have conscription so that makes the whole thing quite different. The point is however that neither here nor there (that I am aware of) are members of the military victims of institutionalized and wide-spread (like society-wide) oppression of any kind because of their status of working for the military.

One of the issues I've had here for a while is that there should be a middle ground, but NPF as a whole can't seem to find it.
I at least partly agree with this, but it's a whole other thing where exactly this middle ground should be.

Bells

07-29-2012, 01:17 PM

Uuh... was a bit surprised to see my post here, but just let me raise my hand for a second here ok...?

Is this thread going forward?

I mean, i'm not making anything out of it, but for me was crystal clear that Fenris was trying to land the conversation without having to Ban anybody (which is actually the best course of action in those cases), but reading all of it, i just have to say that is quite clear to -me- that the tolerance for Liz was WAY stretched in this conversation before some action was actually taken... in that point, i just agree with pip. And quite a few others...

But the reason i'm posting here is just that... when a piece of a thread gets extracted like an early stage cancer and allowed to grown to 6 pages of circular non-points... it just doesn't seem that this will go anywhere positive, and it could even indirectly become a "Liz Bashing" thread which would be just as wrong and bad (and again, if i may offer some criticism... i believe it would certainly evoke mod action way faster than what was displayed here).

So, if there is any interest of pulling a discussion topic out of this, for my money, it would be best served in another thread.

Osterbaum

07-29-2012, 01:23 PM

Besides Liz's first post in the thread, I don't think she was being assholish or even really insulting.

Bells

07-29-2012, 01:34 PM

She was asked to drop it by multiple mods, she didn't. that then proceeded for a couple of pages of "your acting like this" with replies of "Nuh-uh!". so... yeah.

and again, not really a good ground for conversation to make a serious topic to talk about any one forum member (it never was), and not really fair to keep discussing someone who can't be around to reply on their own terms... so i'm just going to step out of this thread, but personal feeling is that i suggest you guys to do the same.

Osterbaum

07-29-2012, 02:25 PM

Liz's replies amounted to a lot more than just "nuh-uh". And frankly anyone who isn't seeing that probably needs to read them again and really think about what she's saying. You don't have to agree with everything she's saying, you don't even have to agree with the way she is presenting her arguments, but damn just at least try to read what she typed without just thinking "it's Liz so she's just insulting people and everything she says is reactionary oppression of my rights" or whatever.

Marc v4.0

07-29-2012, 02:27 PM

"it's Liz so she's just insulting people and everything she says is reactionary oppression of my rights" or whatever.

This shit right here is why I'm been slowly expanding my brief hiatus into a long break.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 02:52 PM

Uuh... was a bit surprised to see my post here

Yeah my bad, moved it back.

at least try to read what she typed without just thinking "it's Liz so she's just insulting people and everything she says is reactionary oppression of my rights" or whatever.

I agree with this sentiment. Like I said in my first post EDIT: first post today in this whole debacle was that both sides were clearly in the wrong here, and I'm about to start working out who needs moderatorial action and how severe that needs to be.

But like, Liz wouldn't have flipped off the handle so often if people weren't willing to at least acknowledge that, hey, she might actually have a point here. Which is ironic, considering Liz's inability to acknowledge that the mod staff might actually have a point when we say she needs to stop leading a crusade all over our forums is what got her banned again.

Aldurin

07-29-2012, 03:21 PM

It's just a shitty environment for absolutely fucking everyone, and I really don't know why the hell you all do it to yourselves. All I know is that y'all ign'ant ass niggas is been nothing but absolute retards for a couple of years now, and I'm fed the fuck up with everyone.

Should have just let the forum die when Brian was done with it.

Definitely feels like this, even when I try to reserve myself to the Games and RP subforums, it's still like having the fight-club/methlab business with a marital counselor next door. It's definitely a shame that the discussions get to such extremes due to varying amounts of ignorance or oversensitvity, so hopefull we can recover from this and start to work back to the better discussions.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 03:29 PM

you're an asshole, Liz.

Unacceptable forum behavior, see you in one day.

The fact remains, however, that [Liz's] selfish and egotistical attitude has become such a nuisance that it has caused at least 2 forum members to openly tell you to "fuck off" and leave, while many more do so in a more subtle fashion. You go well out of your way to look for a cause to advocate, and then jump the gun calling for a boycott whilst calling "biggot" every time someone says "wait, lets see what this is really all about first". Every time someone would say we try to make sure we've got our facts straight, you'd simply flame them and accuse them of oppression. You're like a liberal version of fox news,Additionally, while this was worded as gently as possible, the overall message isn't that much different than Sevenshot's up there and you know how we feel about tone arguments so even being kind in telling somebody they're an asshole is still telling them they're an asshole so I'm going to have to ask you to take a day off.

As a user...not an admin...liz, you're an asshole.

http://i48.tinypic.com/r2ul35.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/fc4ee.jpg

:argh:

Nique

07-29-2012, 03:42 PM

Would it make more sense to people who sometimes say bigoted things if someone like myself who was less aggressive about calling them out on saying bigoted things said that they were saying bigoted things?

If so then yes a lot of the things you're saying are bigoted things.

Slightly more serious: I think everyone (including everyone) likes to hide behind intent when something they say potentially hurts someone else or comes across as bigoted, but that really only goes so far. Intent and certain contexts might make the difference between, let's say, a ban-able offense and just being called out on it, but if you've been around any length of time you should know that there is going to be some kind of conversation about what you said. And if you can't tell the difference between what kind of racial/ gender/ etc jokes are actually offensive and what ones will be understood as actually drawing attention to the specific privilege inherent in the issue in a helpful way, maybe you should ask yourself if you understand the issue well enough to be making those sort of comments at all, or if you're just going wind up hiding behind some ham-fisted ideas about how you're de-powering racist jokes by using literally racist jokes.

Like, I know irony is suuuuper popular guys, but it's a fine tool like a scalpel. It's not a fucking mallet.

EDIT: @ Fenris 1)Just gonna go ahead and offer up the opinion that this discussion should have just been shut down, like, immediately because holy god this is some dramaz, but also 2) attempting to ban shiney? Excellent. Some much needed lolz.

shiney

07-29-2012, 04:37 PM

EDIT: @ Fenris 1)Just gonna go ahead and offer up the opinion that this discussion should have just been shut down, like, immediately because holy god this is some dramaz,
Disagree because as was stated this has been festering for quite some time, but
but also 2) attempting to ban shiney? Excellent. Some much needed lolz.

agreed. I'm banning myself for 24 hours and will view the aftermath tomorrow. Fair is fair.

Aldurin

07-29-2012, 04:50 PM

Shiney is gone?

I'll go break out the booze and fireworks.

DarkDrgon

07-29-2012, 05:33 PM

I usually don't post much, and one of the main reasons is that I'm worried I'm gonna step over the line (again) and get shot at by half the members here

Nique

07-29-2012, 05:49 PM

Man, I'm not a huge fan of being super aggressive with people if they say something ignorant or whatever but can you guys just like, try to deal with it? Literally everyone on the internet has said something stupid that they should regret and been called out on it.

There is a super easy way out of conversations where you are being dogpiled, which is to gracefully bow out. As for more equal arguments, well, those happen and pretty much people get over it.

Like, Pip, you really don't need to leave. If you feel like you can't get along with Liz or whoever else, then just fuckin' manage it. No one's asking you to be best friends with every single member here.

DarkDrgon, don't let the straw-liberal boogeyman scare you because he doesn't exist. If you post something that's problematic then people may call you out on it, but that's like, part of people communicating ideas n stuff. No one is going to hate you if you say something shitty and are willing to acknowledge the possibility of it being shitty. That only really happens if you insist that the shitty thing wasn't shitty.

EDIT: Like, maybe I'm backseat modding here and if that's how it's coming across I apologize. I just don't think people need to be scared of being shunned or whatever because 1) that's a super 'poor me' attitude and 2) it's like giving up without even really trying and you're potentially missing out on some fun, sexy, enlightening times to be had.

Arcanum

07-29-2012, 06:03 PM

I usually don't post much, and one of the main reasons is that I'm worried I'm gonna step over the line (again) and get shot at by half the members here

This is why I stay out of the news forum. And tiptoe around the general forum (and on the odd case the game forum when super srzbznz stuff leaks into there). I'm worried that I'll say something from ignorance or without fully thinking it through, and then get insulted or ridiculed instead of someone making a calm response pointing out why what I said was terrible or offensive.

Like, if you insult someone as you're refuting their argument, odds are they aren't going to listen to the point your making and be too busy being offended by the insult (and that offense will color their opinion of the point you just made in a negative light). And that's what I find is the biggest obstacle in having reasonable discussion on NPF. (disclaimer 2.0: my experience with heated discussions, arguments, and general NPF Drama(TM) on this site has, thankfully, been kept to a minimum, so my thoughts on this matter are based on that small exposure and could very well not reflect the entire issue of whatever the crap is the big issue here)

Osterbaum

07-29-2012, 06:07 PM

Nique

07-29-2012, 06:14 PM

This is why I stay out of the news forum. And tiptoe around the general forum (and on the odd case the game forum when super srzbznz stuff leaks into there).

This is a valid strategy, but...

I'm worried that I'll say something from ignorance or without fully thinking it through, and then get insulted or ridiculed instead of someone making a calm response pointing out why what I said was terrible or offensive.

You're shifting the blame. Again, intent and ignorance isn't an excuse in the eyes of the law, and it isn't an excuse when you say something awful either.

Like, are we supposed to read your mind? How do we know you don't know what you're saying? It's not fair that we have to somehow decipher when you know what you're talking about and when you don't, and that's insulting to you.

Like, if you insult someone as you're refuting their argument, odds are they aren't going to listen to the point your making and be too busy being offended by the insult (and that offense will color their opinion of the point you just made in a negative light). And that's what I find is the biggest obstacle in having reasonable discussion on NPF.

If that's the case then you have to extend the same courtesy to the people who were offended by what YOU said. Do you see how that just doesn't work?

Like, guys and gals, say what you're gonna say but fuckin' take some responsibility for yourself, don't blame it on being all hurt by how people responded to the shitty things you wanted to say.

DarkDrgon

07-29-2012, 06:34 PM

For me its less not wanting to look bigotted or wrong, more I really don't want my having posted in a thread take it wildly off topic and start the argument circle, which continues even after the OP bows out.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 06:39 PM

I understand where you are coming from, but it is not the responsibility of the offended to explain and educate. While it is indeed nicer and possibly more productive to calmly explain, at least at first, why someone is being bigoted and how, those offended do not ow this courtesy to anyone offending them.

I am actually going to go ahead and disagree here because if a statement is made out of ignorance of the possibility of somebody being offended by it, it is extremely awful to make what you thought was a wholly innocuous remark and get met by a tidal wave meteor of fuck you.

Repeat offenders don't get this leniency and trolls are trollin' but people who just honestly say something they didn't really mean should always be approached in a calm manner, and if they continue to debate how the shitty thing they did wasn't all that shitty, report the post as baiting and move on. Members should never ever try to regulate what kind of content is being posted here because when that happens it makes storms like this blow up wherein two sides form. It's much smoother and much easier in that situation just to have one of us look at it to 1) put a stop to the shitty posting immediately or 2) inform you that you're crying wolf because hey sometimes people make mistakes.

Arcanum

07-29-2012, 06:43 PM

You're shifting the blame. Again, intent and ignorance isn't an excuse in the eyes of the law, and it isn't an excuse when you say something awful either.

Like, are we supposed to read your mind? How do we know you don't know what you're saying? It's not fair that we have to somehow decipher when you know what you're talking about and when you don't, and that's insulting to you.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything about shifting the blame. I just used ignorance as an example because in that case it's more likely that I will realize what I said is terrible when someone points it out to me, because I just didn't know before. Yes it would still be a terrible thing, and yes I would do my best to take full blame for it being terrible and apologize for my ignorance.

Basically what I'm saying is that I avoid posting in those areas because I don't like being exposed to the insults and aggressive posts that may or may not follow one of my own. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette, where my next post will have the bullet and trigger a post that makes me angry or upset. The exact reason I avoid this is because I know that my post caused that response, and I don't like that feeling of having offended or disappointed or let one of you down (even though I hardly know any of you). Am I missing out on a learning experience, and possibly staying ignorant about things that I would otherwise be enlightened about had I posted? Yes, definitely. But most of the time I don't like making people angry or upset with my posts, so I just avoid posting in those sensitive topics.

Osterbaum

07-29-2012, 07:09 PM

I am actually going to go ahead and disagree here because if a statement is made out of ignorance of the possibility of somebody being offended by it, it is extremely awful to make what you thought was a wholly innocuous remark and get met by a tidal wave meteor of fuck you.
It isn't nice to be in that position and it's not nice to respond with insults to anything. What I'm saying is that nobody is obligated to be nice to you when you say bigoted things. Whether being nice or at least calm about it is a more effective way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways or whether this is morally better is something I'm not willing to get into much right now, because it's something that I don't feel I've formed a clear opinion on yet and would like to learn more on before I dwell into it much in a forum discussion.

The point here is that the fact that someone was being insulting or bigoted out of ignorance rather than spite doesn't make it anyone elses responsibility to treat them nice. Just because they didn't mean their insulting bigoted post to be insulting and bigoted does not mean they aren't and does not mean they aren't accountable for what they said.

Fenris

07-29-2012, 07:12 PM

It isn't nice to be in that position and it's not nice to respond with insults to anything. What I'm saying is that nobody is obligated to be nice to you when you say bigoted things. Whether being nice or at least calm about it is a more effective way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways or whether this is morally better is something I'm not willing to get to much shortly here, because it's something that requires an extensive discussion of it's own.

The point here is that the fact that someone was being insulting or bigoted out of ignorance rather than spite doesn't make it anyone elses responsibility to treat them nice just because they didn't mean their insulting bigoted post to be insulting and bigoted.
Okay, yeah, but as far as this forum goes, please try to do the calm explanation route instead of the fuck you you intolerant fuck route.

That's what I'm mostly getting at. While you're by no means obligated towards the person doing bigoted things to be nice to them, I think that you're obligated towards the forums as a whole to not be a big 'ol asshole.

Something about fostering a positive environment or some such.

CABAL49

07-29-2012, 07:13 PM

Basically what I'm saying is that I avoid posting in those areas because I don't like being exposed to the insults and aggressive posts that may or may not follow one of my own. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette, where my next post will have the bullet and trigger a post that makes me angry or upset. The exact reason I avoid this is because I know that my post caused that response, and I don't like that feeling of having offended or disappointed or let one of you down (even though I hardly know any of you). Am I missing out on a learning experience, and possibly staying ignorant about things that I would otherwise be enlightened about had I posted? Yes, definitely. But most of the time I don't like making people angry or upset with my posts, so I just avoid posting in those sensitive topics.

Fuck that. You have something to say, say it. Don't give a damn what these rubes thing. In trying to make everyone happy you only anger everyone and dissapoint yourself. You shouldn't compromise yourself. Unless you participate, you will never absolve yourself of your ignorance. What you are ignorant of will continue to remain as a part of you. Only through dialouge can ignorance be fought.

But is important to note that everyone values what they say. Unless you are willing to stand up for yourself, you will be swept up.

As someone who has defended Liz many times in the past, I do need to address Liz. For the most part, Liz is on the right side of the argument. I will note that she is antagonistic against the mods, whether Fenris or Shiney are right or wrong I will not address in this post. Also not relevent at the moment. But Liz is right that Draw Muhammed Day is biggoted, that Atlus was being transphobic and that Call of Duty was shit. Liz was wrong when she called people in the Mass Effect thread of being homophobic. Liz has done some dickish things, but calling her an asshole when she is trying to be patient and nice is antagonistic. It is directly provoking her so that she will lose her shit, and so then her arguments can be dismissed. I do like that the mods are stepping forth saying the tonal argument is not ok, because it is bullshit. Liz has looked for bigotry in the wrong places, like with Fenris. But for the most part Liz makes quality posts that should not be ignored.

I have seen too often when someone tries to counter, they get their argument torn to peices and then play the victim, and call Liz an asshole. I could go through and point out when people have been biggoted, but pretty sure I did that the first time you posted biggoted shit. But this is where I need to disagree with Fen. I think it better than the members attempt to handle an offensive situation before the mods come in. The general scenario ends with someone banned or the thread locked and people frustrated they didn't get to voice their opinions. I say let the people vent for a bit. But I am neither a mod nor trying to critic NPF's mods with this.

But we do end up with the problem of understanding the difference between ignorance and malice when it comes to offensive material. I think we can all agree that Daniel Tosh's comments on rape were so far past the line that it didn't know which speck of shit it was. That is clear malice. But I say it is not that hard. Most of us have been around for a while and know when someone is being an idiot and when they are a sack of shit.

And I did get a laugh out of people getting upset at discussions being to hot. If you cannot afford for your opinions to be wrong and your pride hurt, you should probably stay out of discussions. I am not trying to exclude anyone from discussion, but if you come in with the attitude that you are automatically right because of reasons, then you are going to just piss a lot of people off and get insulted because they are not respecting you. But that attitude is completly disrepectful to begin with. You do not come in to do dialouge, you are either trolling or being a dick. And people are going to call out dickery when they see it.

Now to make the thread a little more lighthearted: a cat hugging a kitten:
http://i.toobnetwork.com/cutetoob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/rLGoZ.gif
Perhaps if all of our avatars were changed to adorable animals, there would be less heat in discussions.

Arcanum

07-29-2012, 07:27 PM

Don't give a damn what these rubes think.
That's just not the kind of person I am.

CABAL49

07-29-2012, 07:47 PM

That's just not the kind of person I am.

I am not telling you to rub your dick in everyone's face, e-peen or otherwise. But that you need to stand behind your opinions, even if they might be shitty. A little self confidence ain't going to kill you.

Ryong

07-29-2012, 07:48 PM

http://i.imgur.com/sLToe.png

CABAL49

07-29-2012, 07:51 PM

If I hadn't been in chat when you said what it was, I would have thought you were saying NPF was a pile of feces. Which isn't that far off.

Nique

07-29-2012, 09:14 PM

Solid Snake

07-29-2012, 11:25 PM

...Why do I miss all the fun threads, everyone
Why do I miss all the fun threads

Loyal

07-30-2012, 12:03 AM

I was wondering how you would find something like this fun but then I remember you're a lawyer now.

And then I found my question answered before it was even asked.

greed

07-30-2012, 12:31 AM

Actually I'd be willing to bet that this is still a pretty good place in terms of internet forums if we're comparing it to other places.

Like the whole 'oh god npf is just blah whateverthingIdon'tlikethisweek' is kinda dumb because we can all very easily make it NOT that.

Basically, I ducked into the Escapist forum a few days ago and oh holy god. As irritating as NPF can be at times it is still one of the better forums on the net.

Nique

07-30-2012, 12:36 AM

See guys; An endorsement by greed. What more could you ask for?

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 01:05 AM

Actually Loyal it's basically just that I'm getting wasted tonight and everything is fun by virtue of alcohol.

Additional Snake Tipsy Almost-Drunk Rant That Goes Nowhere!!!
(Don't expect this to make sense because I'm tipsy and nearing drunkeness and weeeeee)

I'm sick and tired of people singling out Liz when criticizing the 'aggressive tone' of serious NPF discussions or whatever-the-fucks when, in reality, what we really should be complaining about, if anything, is the 'aggressive tone' that literally every single one of us who's ever had an opinion in an NPF Discussion topic has taken at one point or another. I'm not even convinced Liz does it more than anyone else here, if anything it's more that Liz has done so at a couple moments that were more controversial or more memorable. And that's likely because Liz is concerned with issues like privilege and discrimination and touchy issues like gender and race and sexuality, while many of the rest of us resort to ugly vitriol over less genuinely disconcerting subjects.

And, if this really was just all about Liz? Like, if Pip or other people who've threatened to quit really were just thinking of quitting solely because Liz drove them to insanity? I'm pretty sure there's an Ignore User function here, or some rough equivalent to it; that's what it'd be used for. Or, hell, take it up privately with the Mods.

Saddling the baggage of your departure on the community at large -- and name-dropping the individual you want to publicly hold responsible for your voluntary exit -- really seems to suggest a desire to incite the community to dislike the person you dislike through conjuring manufactured melodrama.

When there are, in fact, far better ways for you to deal with whatever frustration you're feeling -- starting with, for example, simply leaving without pointing fingers for a few days, catching your breath, collecting your thoughts and regaining your composure through the passage of time.

But, back to the original point: We've all basically been assholes at one point or another on this message board because it's an anonymous internet message board. All of us. ...Well, okay, maybe just most of us.

We're not close friends, family members, coworkers, or other individuals from whom you should expect to receive personal validation regardless of your behavior or the credibility of what you say or how you act. That degree of loyalty and devotion generally doesn't manifest in the context of an online community where you can't reasonably infer such basic, fundamental stepping stones in interpersonal relationships as one's tone of voice. We're a bunch of random fans of a webcomic who've never met each other in person before, and subsequently conversations here tend to be less intimate and more quarrelsome. In practice, we tend to have the intellectual conversations about politics and religion and sex and culture without worrying quite as much as we might in real life about how the other participants in said conversation feel.

(There may be specific exceptions of individual NPFers who you have that kind of a close bond with -- I'd like to imagine there are some individuals here who fit that rough description for me -- but they're the exception, not the rule, and it's certainly within the discretion of people to choose whether or not they want to be the close friend who will support you unconditionally, or the intellectual critic who understands that their hostility will not endear them to you as a 'best friend' but who will instead aggressively critique arguments you advance and consider the validity or 'correctness' of said intellectual positions more important than your friendship. Again, to summarize: If Liz -- or anyone else -- values you 'being right on important issues like feminism / sexism / homophobia in society' more important than earning 'your feelings' or 'your friendship' or even 'your respect,' that is Liz's choice, not yours. Of course, it's entirely in the NPF Moderators' prerogative to decide if that stance leads to Liz being moderated. But, generally speaking, if the idea of engaging with someone like Liz who values your individual arguments positions more than your overall integrity or character upsets you, that's probably a good sign that serious Discussion conversations about topics like racism and misogyny and homophobia are ones you should avoid, and in an effort to avoid conjuring said topics, you should probably also avoid posting content that may, however inadvertently, offend said oppressed minority groups and crap, I'm losing my train of thought.)

Nothing posted should be interpreted as an argument against civility, insofar as I think every and any online community should strive for that, and Moderators are 100% in the right to attempt to rigidly enforce that, but this is an argument against the tried and true practice of deflecting valid intellectual criticism under the pretense that some tiny portion of it is personally 'offensive' insofar as it does not presume you have the pure heart and pristine motives of an angel.

We should not have to preface arguments made in this thread with, "X, you're a great person and I really like you and you shouldn't interpret any of this commentary in response to your brazenly racist / misogynistic / homophobic / transphobic post as a direct insult on your character, your contributions to society or your value as a human being, because I know that by mere virtue of your existence as a human being and your presence on NPF and past association with politically liberal beliefs and concepts that you are likely not actively or overtly intending to behave as a racist / misogynist / homophobic / transphobic individual, but..."

That would be stupid.

Holy shit I hate this post already so I'm going to end it.
I think the thing that pisses me most off about tipsy-Snake is that the inclination to write Walls is just as prevalent as with Sober-Snake, only the filter's gone, meaning that if you hated Snake's Walls before, handing Snake a bit of alcohol will not fix your problems.

THE END!!!!

Aldurin

07-30-2012, 01:06 AM

Fenris

07-30-2012, 01:11 AM

Snake

Snake

Snake

I read all of your post

do you understand

this is a personal best for me

also it was a very good post, I liked it. would read it again. not right now though

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 01:12 AM

I want to start a support group for your keyboard, Snake. It's gotta be rough being banged on relentlessly for results that are already prefaced with "Hey this is more likely than not a waste of your time to read".

I was actually just about to edit my post with the realization that about 90% of what tipsy-Snake just typed really applies to sober-Snake more than anyone else on this forum, meaning that all I really just accomplished wasn't just wasting all of your times but also effectively amounted to my alcohol afflicted self lecturing my alcohol free self out loud in front of a mirror in everyone elses presence in a way that is pretty crazy

But then you typed this, and now I'm just overwhelmed with the desire to give you a finger. Hint: It is not my ring finger or index finger. Guess away

Aldurin

07-30-2012, 01:15 AM

You know, you could just rep me instead of using so many words to say "THUMBS UP, BRO!"

Like, this is why your keyboard needs to file for abuse.

Thadius

07-30-2012, 01:18 AM

Actually Snake, and this may come as a surprise to you...

I enjoyed that wall of text.

It explained quite a bit, really, about this online community we have here.

It also explained why I hate Liz focusing on those issues so much.

Ever since I was old enough to grasp the concept, I was raised better than to differentiate between people based on physical differences. I was taught that someone with a difference in their skin tone does not mean that I cannot be friends with them.

Odd, really, considering I can count on one hand the amount of people that are physically different from me in that department that I count as friends.

Gender was no barrier, race was no barrier, age was no barrier. I was a happy, healthy child, who wanted to be friends with everyone, regardless of any differences.

I've matured a bit, but I've not lost the teachings of my parents.

Liz focusing on the fact that people discriminate based on those things angers me, and I finally pinned down why.

It's not that Liz is posting those things. It's that those things still exist for Liz to post about.

I know that not everyone is like me. Not everyone is capable of seeing past physical differences, looking at what a person is before judging them.

One day, it may come to pass, that racism and bigotry and sexism die out in the world.

They certainly have in my heart.

Nique

07-30-2012, 01:43 AM

Not having to be aware of racism or other forms of bigotry and discrimination is a matter of privilege (usually white privilege) and actually contributes to the oppression of under-represented groups.

One day, it may come to pass, that racism and bigotry and sexism die out in the world.

They certainly have in my heart.

If those ideas have died in your heart, then it would definitely be the time to stop being upset that someone draws attention to these very real problems.

It also explained why I hate Liz focusing on those issues so much... It's that those things still exist for Liz to post about.

Like, this is a pretty meaningful epiphany and I would keep rolling with that and see where it takes you.

Overcast

07-30-2012, 01:58 AM

Can someone change the title to a discussion about Liz? I really don't mind him myself, his habits seem born of a genuine concern for the subjects he believes in and a long existing need for people on this forum to mix serious discussion with undercutting snide banter that seeks to not only prove you are wrong, but that you are incapable of understanding how to be right.

Despite what Token said I remember it being very much two extremes since I joined with my first account 9 years ago.

I'll admit while I started my part in this thread as civilly as I could muster even I began to get dragged into an opinionated attempt to make her look like a hypocrite by pointing out prior generalizations she made on military members. One worse in an attempt to not seem weak by comparison to her unyielding surety in her opinion I generalized us as needing to be absolutely joking rather than my genuine opinion that joking is important, but that there is a fine line between challenging and reimforcing stereotypes. Which Token genuinely shamed me for.

I don't honestly know what the solution tp the habit is, maybe being aware of it might help. But I can't be sure.

greed

07-30-2012, 02:04 AM

See guys; An endorsement by greed. What more could you ask for?

I am the impartial and ultimate arbiter of quality with truly impeccable taste.

Marc v4.0

07-30-2012, 02:10 AM

Can someone change the title to a discussion about Liz? I really don't mind him myself, his habits seem born of a genuine concern for the subjects he believes in and a long existing need for people on this forum to mix serious discussion with undercutting snide banter that seeks to not only prove you are wrong, but that you are incapable of understanding how to be right.

Despite what Token said I remember it being very much two extremes since I joined with my first account 9 years ago.

I'll admit while I started my part in this thread as civilly as I could muster even I began to get dragged into an opinionated attempt to make him look like a hypocrite by pointing out prior generalizations he made on military members. One worse in an attempt to not seem weak by comparison to his unyielding surety in his opinion I generalized us as needing to be absolutely joking rather than my genuine opinion that joking is important, but that there is a fine line between challenging and reimforcing stereotypes. Which Token genuinely shamed me for.

I don't honestly know what the solution tp the habit is, maybe being aware of it might help. But I can't be sure.

Her.

Edit: I don't know why this really bothers me so much, but it really does and it might be really nitpicky to call out if Liz doesn't care but If I didn't say anything I think I would have eaten my own brain.

Thadius

07-30-2012, 02:12 AM

Like, this is a pretty meaningful epiphany and I would keep rolling with that and see where it takes you.

Looked into it, reporting findings.

I do not judge based on appearance at all. Do not judge based on sex, gender, race, what have you. It means jack all to me because I was raised better to begin with, but e'er since, I adopted my raising into my own philosophy that I do my damnedest to live by. Short and simple, but it's really all I need:

We're all human. If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? I think Shakespeare said that, but if I'm wrong, do correct me.

Where I take offense is where people enforce this meaningless bias, this pointless hate. I know it exists out there, and that it's a big, huge, ugly THING on the horizon that may very well come to call one day. I can look away from that and fight it as best I can by being a calm, rational, nice person that does not judge based on those things. I can also hope that by doing so I lead by example and cause more people to not be hatemongers.

There is enough hate out there that I feel, really, that we could do without putting it on the Internet.

And then we have Liz...

I understand that Lizposts serve a vital function, they remind us that these issues exist and we should still be doing something about them. Really, though, I could do with fewer of them in my life.

I would liken it to when Snake jokingly went full Brony on us.

Except Snake at least was good during that bit. Liz has been doing this for a while, and the only good thing about these posts is...

I'll get back to you when I think of something.

Overcast

07-30-2012, 02:15 AM

No you're right Marc, I was hiding in RP for the switch from Nonsie to Liz so the identifying pronoun switch wasn't cemented in my skull.

Marelo

07-30-2012, 02:16 AM

That is very insensitive to people who do not have blood, Thadius. As a person whose body is run and regulated by a collection of gas-filled bladders, I want you to know that you've hurt me and my standing in our society with your exclusionary rhetoric.

Marelo

07-30-2012, 02:19 AM

On a more serious note, maybe it's not that there were too many "Lizposts" but that there was too much sexism and racism and transphobia and homophobia for Liz to hold her tongue.

Like Nique says, being able to avoid discussion and thought revolving around these issues is a form of privilege that contributes to their continuance as problems.

Nique

07-30-2012, 02:20 AM

I have to get to bed or else I'd respond in more detail.

Thad, I think you have missed my point which was that ignoring these issues contributes to many of them continuing to exist.

Meister

07-30-2012, 02:27 AM

Can someone change the title to a discussion about Liz?
No one who has been around here for any time at all is gonna read the current title and think "you know whom I bet this can't possibly involve?"

Thadius

07-30-2012, 02:28 AM

Okay, yes, I understand. Ignoring something =/= it going away. If THAT were true, the people who believe the Holocaust never happened might be on to something!

However. Do explain to me, as a person not in a position of any power o'er this land, what I can do to fight these issues except what I'm already doing?

If I treat people nicely, if I act as those these issues don't even exist, if I don't discriminate or hate, then what more can you ask me to do?

I'm fighting hatred by spreading peace around me. It's not like you can fight hate with hate. That's just nonsense.

All you can ask me to do is what I'm already doing. Unless you're asking me to become some sort of evangelical who preaches peace and goodwill to all mankind, regardless of age, race, gender, or any other thing.

As I recall, the last one who did that had some sort of issue about being killed and coming back three days later.

Marelo

07-30-2012, 02:34 AM

What we're saying is maybe instead of getting mad at people for discussing and calling attention to bigotry in media and in social situations, you could pay attention to what they have to say, and learn more about how it works and what you can say to people to communicate those same criticisms where warranted. More voices competently dismantling these ideas in public spaces is better.

Acting like not-a-bigot is great, but acting like bigotry isn't a thing anymore is not so great.

Thadius

07-30-2012, 02:41 AM

Ahh. Okay. So understand their viewpoints, understand how their hatred works, for the sole purpose of shattering their carefully constructed castles of hatred around them?

And I would get to do it here?!

I can dig it.

I mean, I know bigotry is a thing, don't get me wrong! I just never had a reason to interact with them before, because it would have been really awkward. For example:

Other person: "Hey, you know those [target demographic]? Fuck 'em, amiright?"

Me: "I don't do the whole bigotry thing."

*Awkward silence*

But saying I should be practicing the ancient art of deconstructing a person's argument, passed down in my family for generations? Encouraging me to practice this? Here? On my least favorite people?

Snake, you've been replaced as my second-favorite NPFer. I like Marelo more now.

pochercoaster

07-30-2012, 02:45 AM

Yo, Thad: colourblindness is a terrible argument. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism) Neither is we're not all like that. (http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/15819666254/were-not-all-like-that) Acting like oppression and privilege don't exist don't do anything to help. In fact, it worsens oppression.

Thadius

07-30-2012, 02:52 AM

...Goddamit Poncheros, I'm not colorblind. I'm not ignorant of the fact that races are deep and complex things, each one has its history, and each one has bad spots in its history. Being white is no better, really, if you look at our history, than being any other race on the planet.

Nor am I ignorant of the fact that bigotry in the world is definitely a Thing and it treats races other than white poorly.

However.

That doesn't effect how I treat anybody.

You could stick a panel of people, from every race and walk of life, in front of me, and I would greet them all politely, ask them how their day is going, possibly discuss things in the news relevant to their interest, and bid them farewell, and move on to the next.

All while being a perfect gentleman. Or if not that, being no less polite than the last guy.

I'm not colorblind. I'm just extremely accepting.

EDIT: GODDAMN NINJA. I also don't do the 'Not all of us are like that' argument. I know it goes without saying. I KNOW it's an overly definitive argument, and there's no way to prove whatever you attach it to.

The only thing it does is make you derail an argument.

pochercoaster

07-30-2012, 02:57 AM

I have no idea why your feelings about how accepting you are have anything to do with discussions of oppression on an internet forum, because oppression exists, it is real, and the fact that you don't perpetuate it, from your perspective, does not invalidate the fact that oppression exists and hurts all kinds of people.

Thadius

07-30-2012, 03:10 AM

Because I'm hoping to turn it away from that?

Because reading five plus pages of me defending myself gets really fucking depressing for me?

Because the last thing I want to do is have to talk about all the things that I hate that still exist in this world?

Yes. It exists. Bigotry is a thing, it should be fought at every opportunity with kindness, reason, compassion, understanding, and pure logic.

But two in the fucking morning is not the time for that.

I've already been hardwired, so to say, to do these sorts of things automatically. Partially from how I was taught, and partially from my own morals.

So can we just move on already? Please?

CABAL49

07-30-2012, 03:19 AM

Hey Thad, if you are tired and whatnot, you can not post and wait until you can reast up so that you can make better posts. What you are and aren't has no place in why biggotry exists. It exists. You can pretend it it isn't a problem, fight against it or support it. Pretending it isn't a problem ultimatly supports bigotry.

Also, what are you even trying to argue? Get some sleep. No one respond to Thad for eight hours.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 09:29 AM

If there's anything I've learned so far, it's apparently that I need to get tipsy more often.

The thing about 'colorblindness' (which is a very, very popular defensive stance in old circles of conservative 'friends' I once associated with) that aggravates me most is that advocates of being 'colorblind' are so convinced of their own impeccable behavior that you can't actually initiate constructive dialogue with them when they are, in fact, saying things that are racist or sexist or homophobic or transphobic.

Thadius, while it's entirely possible that your 'colorblindness' leads you to lack what might be construed as actual hurtful malice against underprivileged minority groups, I'm guessing that -- like me and like other people everywhere in this fucked-up society we live in -- your ignorance or lack of exposure to certain specific issues faced by the powerless manifests itself in statements that are just as objectively offensive as if you were in fact racist, sexist, etc.

Relying on 'colorblindness' is, more often than not, an attempt to defuse personal culpability by relying on what a straight-up 'great person' you are. In the context of most of these conversations, the 'great person' you are is utterly irrelevant. This is a lesson I've struggled with too, insofar as I was raised by my family to play the part of the 'colorblind conservative' -- the conservative who'd justify positions that indirectly reinforced institutional privilege simply because they lacked actual or active malice. "It's okay to oppose gay marriage as a sociopolitical construct so long as I don't hate gay people, and treat them the same as anyone else in everyday life." (That is literally something I believed for a while.)

Amake

07-30-2012, 09:54 AM

Take it from someone who's actually "color blind" to ethnicity, it's pretty awkward when you meet a friend of a friend and talk for like a few hours and then, after they leave, your friend says something like "She had it pretty hard back in Brazil" or "Did you see that [n-word] steal your french fries?" and this is honestly the first idea you have had that this was a person of color you talked to. Awkward and ripe for massive insensitivity. It's better to keep your eyes open in my opinion.

Nique

07-30-2012, 10:27 AM

...So can we just move on already? Please?

No, but thanks for making your incredibly problematic central thesis clear.

Because reading five plus pages of me defending myself gets really fucking depressing for me?

I don't know why you feel attacked - Has anyone called you a racist? I know you're feeling dogpiled here but I actually started this conversation complimenting you so, really, come on.

Also, imagine how depressed it must make people who have to actually deal with these issues head on?

I just never had a reason to interact with them before

You've never had to interact with anyone who has a bigoted viewpoint? Ever? This is so close to saying that bigotry doesn't exist I don't even :wtf:

Other person: "Hey, you know those [target demographic]? Fuck 'em, amiright?"

Me: "I don't do the whole bigotry thing."

Just because someone isn't going around screaming about faggots doesn't mean that this

"It's okay to oppose gay marriage as a sociopolitical construct so long as I don't hate gay people, and treat them the same as anyone else in everyday life." (That is literally something I believed for a while.)

isn't basically the same thing. The problem is in the very thought process that Snake described which is pretty much the one you are currently engaged in.

I'll give you an example; Obviously my experience is different from yours, maybe your parents are super progressive thinking people or maybe they are just really really nice or whatever. But! My parents also taught me to play nice, not to hate women or gay people or anyone different from me.

Does that mean that them and all of the people I know don't possess any harmful viewpoints? Sure doesn't! It's pretty common to hear about how poor people don't appreciate anything, how Daniel Tosh is hilarious, how some black people have a chip on their shoulder etc. And you can be sure that just being SUPER NICE to everyone isn't going to make them not think those things. So, I'm willing to bet your interact with people who hold bigoted viewpoints all the time. If you're able to spot such viewpoints, maybe you can do more than just be nice to everyone.

Thad I think it's great that you realize what made you so upset about Liz and others bringing up this kind of stuff all the time. I just think the next step is you need to realize that it's wrong of you to be upset by it, and to realize that while you are certainly not obliged to engage in any specific discussion about social justice, bigots are not these evil hitler-monsters you can spot easily or wish away. They are everyday people who have the same barriers to understanding these issues that you and I do.

Sifright

07-30-2012, 10:47 AM

I don't really want to get involved in this because i'm pretty okay with calling racists bigots and sexists, racist bigoted and sexist fucks.

At the same time I'm aware of the fact that me doing that destroys any chance I have of having dialogue with people who hold these views, because ultimately I don't believe I can change their minds about just how damaging their views are to these minorities.

The problem comes from the fact that humans aren't rational, we self affirm we don't reason through things we view things through the lens of our experiences and ultimately we reject things through that same lens. Basically what I'm saying is that you can't reason with people who aren't using reason to make their judgments. Some people are more progressive but by and large every one holds prejudicial views of some kind and it takes a lot of work and effort to life your self out of your culture to be above that most people wont ever be lifted out of the effects of their culture and it's depressing and mostly why i'm okay at the end of the day with calling people racist fucks when they hold racist views.

I'm going to drop some links to studies done about human behaviour that you can read through that back up what i've just said above, what I will say is that ultimately if you do want to change a persons mind about whether something is bigoted or not you can't afford to get them being defensive about their views because once that defense comes in you have no chance of reasoning with them because humans are bat shit insane as soon as pride comes into the equation and no where does pride come into discussion more than having to admit you are wrong about something.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney

explains some basic cog sci stuff about how humans are dumb fucks at the best of time.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?comments=all&csort=desc

Explains the back fire effect people have when seeing factual information through their own life lens.

Basically if you want to convince people you are right about a topic? Forget facts forget being rational, you have to come at the topic from an angle the person will be able to engage you on with out instinctively making them jump to the cognitive short cuts people take. You have to approach from emotion, you have to approach from how it jibes with their own belief frame and then introduce the idea in a way that is palateable to them because people do not want to admit they are ever wrong and once that comes into it you lose them.

now don't get me wrong I still don't support the idea of people complaining about the tone of peoples posts and fuck any one who says you are wrong because you didn't say it nice enough because it's bullshit, at the same time i understand why it happens and why ultimately if you want to change a persons mind being hostile wont work.

As a post script.

This is not the same when the situation happens between relatives or close friends, when we have vested interests with the person we are having discourse with we are more willing to swallow our pride and admit wrong doing, between strangers how ever that is a very rare occurrence.

Much of this post was spawned from a conversation between my self and Amake.

I hope you all forgive the rambling nature of my post.

Nique

07-30-2012, 11:02 AM

You have to approach from emotion, you have to approach from how it jibes with their own belief frame and then introduce the idea in a way that is palateable to them because people do not want to admit they are ever wrong and once that comes into it you lose them.

This is true. A lot of it also has to do with people taking issue with certain terms they are unfamiliar with and don't understand, even if they aren't like actually actively bigoted or whatever. Like, fuck try to tell any random white person they are privileged and it's going to be a total crapshoot if they get it or not.

"What? I never had any privilege! Rarghlbl!"

Jagos

07-30-2012, 11:21 AM

You could always try comedy. Seems to work for talk show hosts who talk about these issues.

Betty Elms

07-30-2012, 12:39 PM

shiney make me admin in your stead

let me be the joseph gordon levitt to your shitty batman

Nique

07-30-2012, 12:48 PM

Can I be the Zoey Dechanel to your Joseph Gordon Levitt?

EDIT: *ahem* 'Zooey Claire Deschanel'. EXCUSE ME MAGUS.

Magus

07-30-2012, 02:33 PM

Is it sad that I saw that and went "it's Zooey Deschanel!"?

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 04:03 PM

Welp.
Magus' celebrity crush has been revealed.

Is it wrong that I think that Zooey Deschanel is incredibly overrated? I'm going to say 'No.'

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 04:28 PM

Reason number 2 why Smarty is integral to the forum- threads like this.
Valiant attempt to save it in the last 4 posts- 7/10

Also don't put Batman in charge- if there was a land of magical bigots he would be their fairy king.

The Sevenshot Kid

07-30-2012, 04:35 PM

I felt like I left on bad terms so I thought I�d come back and apologize to Liz and the forum as a whole. Then I saw that I was banned and I knew that I deserved it.

I was being an asshole and that is not how I want to leave NPF because this is genuinely one of the nicest, most supportive communities on the internet.

Liz is making an effort to express beliefs that she is very passionate about and I definitely know what it�s like to be passionate about something and how it can give you narrow vision at the time. Liz has struggled because she lives in a world where she has to face bigotry and, in spite of that hardship, she�s awesome.

But Token is still the most awesome and anyone that says different is a fucking liar.

Ecks

07-30-2012, 04:35 PM

I actually had to read the whole thread, think ten minutes, and hesitated for a few more before deciding to post in this thread.

I don't have the greatest track record in this arena (i.e. Draw Muhammed Day). I would like to at least admit to having some prejudices and behavior learned from my upbringing. I'd also like to admit to having my world view changed, and that I'm actively attempting to better myself.

Oppression in the form of bigotry exists. No point in trying to pretend it doesn't, or that it doesn't affect you (whether or not you come from a "priveleged" society). Making an offensive comment doesn't make you a bad person, regardless of your intent behind it. Knowing what makes the comment offensive, knowing it's wrong, and refusing to admit your wrong doing? Thats what makes you a douchebag.

While I'm at it, I'd like to posit something. If theres an issue with it later, I'll apologize and admit I was wrong, because I actually do give a shit about all of you people (yes, even you Smarty and Rob).

Liz is an asshole. Now let me tell you why this is not such a bad thing.

Liz is passionate about these controversial topics. She is full of piss and vinegar, and is not afraid to call out a douche for saying something thats not kosher. She is aggressive, and in spite of all of that, is a generally likable person, when not agitated. Most of these things are positive attributes (or I at least find them positive). I am a person who uses the term asshole endearingly. My brother, for example, is an asshole. And I love him for it. A lot of friends and coworkers of mine are assholes, and I get along with them swimmingly.

Assholes for the most part are striving toward a positive result. If Liz trying to strive for a more responsible, aware, and generally less biggoted forum makes her an asshole, then we ought to follow her example.

I would like to point out that I don't agree with her on many points, namely her flippan attitude toward the mod staff, and that she cannot back down from an argument (whether or not she's wrong - sometimes you can't win, so you bow out gracefully) for civility's sake. But I admire her moxie.

I'd also like to encourage people to nose around the sensitive topics where they wouldn't before. Not necessarily to chime in on just any old thing, but because I find you learn a lot about yourself when you venture into shitstorms, and you might just surprise yourself! In reading the first half of this thread, I got angrier and angrier at every post liz made. Aside from her usual vitriol, and her attitude toward the mods, she was in the right.

I realized I was angry because I didnt agree with her points. I was perfectly fine with an off color joke from time to time, and with pretending issues related to bigotry didnt exist because they didnt affect me in a noticable way. Who was this jerkburger making waves and telling people off for making "not serious" stereotype jokes?

Kind of sobering, realizing you aren't exactly the paragon of equality and sensitivity.

I'll cut this off here, I'm not so good at the wall o text thing, with my sincere promise to watch my tongue and my keypad, and continue to admit that I'm wrong when I get called out on it.

now can we please get back to our regularly scheduled programming all this srsbzns is harshing my chill afternoon

Pip Boy

07-30-2012, 04:44 PM

I think we've lost something valuable in all the discussion of this, which is the spirit behind it to begin with. There have been loads of people arguing about whether its okay to be extremely rude and disrespectful to people you've been calling biggoted, but ignorance is a two-way street.

In the end the philisophical question of "Is it okay to be brazenly awful to people as long as you're being an activist about it" isn't even relevant to this, since history has showed us time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.) and time again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi) that we can be activists without being jerks about it. The most successful and famous activists in our history were the ones that themselves kept and open mind and were themselves respectful and fair.

The entire spirit of all this opposition of biggotry and mistreatment of the minority is to promote fair treatment of all people, and thus we have no place standing on a soap-box talking about these things if we are not, ourselves, willing to treat people fairly.

Its gotten to the point where I don't even feel like it matters what I say here anymore. Thats ultimately what triggered all of this. I said something that contained no disrespect to anyone except a category limited to mass-murderers and as a result my words were warped and I was jumped on about it. Then I try to express my concerns in the most respectful and fair way possible and I'm jumped on about that. Someone does this to me for weeks, warping everything I say and making me out to be the boogeyman, and when I complain about that mistreatment, I'm accused of singling someone out. Im tired of being everyone's fucking strawman. I am unable to contribute anything of value to this forum when anything and everything I say is going to be smelted down and remanufactured as ammo to shot at me.

Meanwhile the person that does it praised like fucking Batman for being the person that goes the extra mile to burn awful hateful spiteful biggots like me who oh wait were actually just trying themselves to be fair and open-minded and spat upon for it. It has grown to the point where I am either completely and totally delusional or people are spitting on me and being thanked for it. Its disgusting, and being made to post here under that kind of double-standard narrative is why its just not working for me anymore.

So contratulations. I guess you won Liz. This particular abberant entitled jerk submits. I am everything that is wrong with the world and I hate myself.

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 04:46 PM

You're all bigots, ~both sidez~ of this argument, let it go and have a sweet bigot tea party where you can all sip freely from bigotea and sing songs about bigotyou and bigotme.
Cause as hilarious as this all is, you should be uniting against your common enemy, the reds under your bed.

Also Pip_Boy Ghandhi was one of history's greatest fuckholes.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 05:18 PM

I'll cut this off here, I'm not so good at the wall o text thing,

I should charge $100 per hour for 'Wall of Text' lessons.

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 05:21 PM

Can't you do it for free, for the betterment of your peers?

Ecks

07-30-2012, 05:22 PM

no offense pip but I think it stopped being about you a long fucking time ago

Ecks

07-30-2012, 05:23 PM

snakes got loans to pay back dude

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 05:24 PM

He can do it with the ridiculous sums of money he legals out of the pocket of the common man.

Amake

07-30-2012, 05:47 PM

Half of law school is teaching you to lay your words gracefully, convincingly and comprehensively*. Seems fair to me.

Osterbaum

07-30-2012, 05:56 PM

no offense pip but I think it stopped being about you a long fucking time ago
Pip, this has never really been about you. And I don't mean for that to sound mean in any way, imagine me saying it with a perfectly calm and non-hostile tone.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 05:56 PM

To Pip, while I'm at it:

First, Malcolm X was a far better activist, and in my opinion also a more respectable human being, than Martin Luther King, Jr. Privileged whites just write the history books, and MLK Jr. took a more 'agreeable' tone than Malcolm X did, hence MLK was the one immortalized.

But Malcolm X was all kinds of badass, yo.

Second:

[font=courier new][color=#00EE22]I think we've lost something valuable in all the discussion of this, which is the spirit behind it to begin with. There have been loads of people arguing about whether its okay to be extremely rude and disrespectful to people you've been calling biggoted, but ignorance is a two-way street.

I see my arguments as less favoring people being 'extremely rude and disrespectful,' and more defining which side is really being more rude and disrespectful than the other.

Like, so far, the extent of Liz's negative contributions can basically be summarized as a few moments where she made unnecessary snide commentary. The rest was basically just Liz A: being substantively right on most of the issues, B: preferring to educate you on the substantive issues by whatever means necessary as opposed to a preference to remain 'on good terms' with you as a friend, C: being increasingly frustrated with the dismissive insults she received upon being substantively right on the issues, D: responding harshly at times to make her points, but usually only directly in response to flippant, hostile, ignorant and downright offensive comments made by others, and E: receiving a disproportionate torrent of shit from hordes of the privileged who took personal offense upon being told that existence wasn't sunshine and rainbows for others who lacked the innate advantages they enjoyed.

Say what you will about Liz's tactics, in the end you learn something from the experience of being chewed out (as I and countless others have before me have), and perhaps you learn the lessons more quickly than you would if Liz tried to be 'civil,' and I think that's all Liz gives two cents about, and I think that's all oppressed minorities should give two cents about in the context of dealing with ignorant privileged people who refuse to acknowledge the harrowing obstacles those minority groups face and who'd prefer to continue to oppress them, whether through active malice or through silent passivity.

By contrast, the contributions of Liz's critics is basically:

A: Being substantively wrong on most (if not all; certainly, as a fallible person, Liz has been wrong) of the issues;
B: Interjecting Liz into every conversation about privilege as a way to demonize her, demonize others who support her positions, and unnecessarily antagonize the conversation.
C: Upon unnecssarily antagonizing the conversation by demonizing Liz, on occasion before Liz has even entered the conversation herself, then blaming Liz for reacting appropriately to said insults by refusing to take that crap and sticking up for herself. Liz then gets in trouble for appropriately expecting the Mods to take action?

Yes, Liz can be a bit snarky and I'm sure Liz -- like all of us -- has crossed lines and yes, I'm sure there are circumstances in which Liz was justifiably banned for breaking the rules and overreacting.

But I'm sick of y'all using past examples of past precedent as something of a crutch to escape liability for their bigoted statements. If you say something stupid that's offensive, and you're called out on it, you shouldn't be able to rest on the laurels of manufactured hostility and overreact with "You're right I'm an over-entitled jerk who's accomplished nothing of benefit to society I'll leave the forum now because I can't speak my mind because you all hate me" or shit like that.

That kind of personal overreaction derails the conversation to your benefit; instead of acknowledging the objective flaws of your position, you're trying to hide under an overblown attack on your personal integrity where none was made. By doing so, the conversation inevitably becomes more hostile because you've just transformed a conversation about minority rights into a conversation about how we should all pity you, a member of the privileged majority regarding the substantive issue of real discrimination we were discussing, just because your precious feelings were hurt on an internet webforum, and that's somehow more important to you than the substantive issues of real consequence being discussed.
* I speak from personal experience as I did exactly this about a week ago on Sexay and rightfully received loads of criticism for it. We're not even talking ancient history, this was a recent event.

And, think about it from the perspective of any other advocate for the rights of the minority being discussed. What could possibly be more offensive to the progressive notion that women, homosexuals, transsexuals and ethnic minorities deserve equal opportunities with their heterosexual, white, male counterparts than having a legitimate conversation on said topics disrupted because the feelings of a (probably) white, (probably) male, (probably) heterosexual person have been offended?
(Yes, I know, I've stereotyped NPF.)

I can almost understand where the frustration on Liz's part originates: Her goal to educate and inform in her threads about, say, Boycotting Atlus have been usurped because now she has to worry about babysitting the feelings of the privileged, lest her anger at their ignorance offend them.

Remember what I said earlier about how we shouldn't have to preface our criticisms of your speech with disclaimers reminding you that we think you're a decent person and not in fact a shitstain and that we're responding to what you're typing and not who you are, as a human being? That bears repeating, here. We can't have serious conversations about serious subjects of this order of magnitude without it being implicitly understood that hostile commentary is in response to the position being taken, and NOT the person taking said positions.
* From personal experience, I can say that I don't really think Liz takes these vitriolic disagreements as personally as you might imagine based on the language employed, at least in the sense that I've had extremely bitter disagreements with Liz before, only for Liz and I to end up joking and laughing about videogames and animes and new Korean music videos mere days later.

Nique

07-30-2012, 05:58 PM

Pip, I think it would be great if you didn't appropriate the rhetoric of being abused as if the way you're treated here is equal to those groups of people who are actually abused in society at large, or of the philosophies behind civil rights leaders who may have subscribed to a spirit of peace and forgiveness but were still pretty much known for calling out serious issues in what many people of the time considered a "rude" way.

This is not a popularity contest or about Liz winning or anything like that, and you aren't being treated unfairly. You said something that was offensive. It's great that you didn't mean for it to be offensive. So instead of being mad that the problematic thing you said but didn't mean offended people, just say "I'm sorry I said we should mistreat crazy people, I'll try to be more sensitive to that kind of thing in the future" and move on.

Remember what I said earlier about how we shouldn't have to preface our criticisms of your speech with disclaimers reminding you that we think you're a decent person and not in fact a shitstain and that we're responding to what you're typing and not who you are, as a human being? That bears repeating, here. We can't have serious conversations about serious subjects of this order of magnitude without it being implicitly understood that hostile commentary is in response to the position being taken, and NOT the person taking said positions.
* From personal experience, I can say that I don't really think Liz takes these vitriolic disagreements as personally as you might imagine based on the language employed, at least in the sense that I've had extremely bitter disagreements with Liz before, only for Liz and I to end up joking and laughing about videogames and animes and new Korean music videos mere days later.

Also this /\ - No one hates you dude, so chill out.

Bells

07-30-2012, 06:18 PM

Kinda hard to go that route since he was banned again for his previous post guys...

pochercoaster

07-30-2012, 06:21 PM

I read through this thread and nothing about Liz's posts really struck me as dickish. I get the sense that people just get really uncomfortable when legitimate arguments such as the ones Liz writes start to pile up in front of them.

You know what? It's really easy to look like an asshole when you're pointing out prejudice, because being cognizant of prejudice is not the status quo. Conversely, it's a lot easier to go with the status quo and not look like an asshole specifically because it's the status quo. Liz is called an asshole because what she says offends people. It doesn't offend them because what she says is offensive, it offends them because thinking about groups outside of their own privilege is not something they're used to and one reaction to that is hostility. Fear of the unknown, fear that one might've said or done something prejudiced in the past. It makes one uncomfortable with one's identity.

But is the mark of maturity not the willingness to confront one's own preconceived notions of oneself and the world at large?

Also, was I not the only one offended by this?

Despite this it seems that I find myself unable to post on this forum without being targetted by a virtual bukakke of "you're a feminist, racist, ableist, oppressive, biggoted idiot fuck" usually started by Liz and then joined by 1d4+1 goblins.

Seriously, bringing up bukkake as a comparison to people pointing out prejudice? Does this strike anyone else as hella misogynistic? Why do I have to read this bullshit? I almost went ahead and made a post about it before Liz did.

Or how about the rape jokes that were thrown around on NPF chat before? (Which I asked a few people to stop doing, and they have very kindly complied and apologized, like mature adults should. Dunno if it still happens since I don't go on to NPF chat anymore.) Or like... any other number of posts with misogynistic tones that I might dig up later. Like Liz being called "babe."

It's not that y'all are bad people, it's that if someone points out that something you said is prejudiced they are actually doing you a favour. You should think about what they said and apologize. And then strive to not say it again. It's that easy. And, fortunately, a number of members here DO listen. The ones who don't want to, though, and start a shit storm over it need to grow up. Not everyone on here is a cis white dude.

And LIZ IS NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS SHIT GOING ON IN HERE. Seriously.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 06:21 PM

Kinda hard to go that route since he was banned again for his previous post guys...

Ah. He was?
If so, I missed that.
Hope he still reads the text from Nique and I, though.
EDIT: And Poch.

EDIT 2: In addition to Poch's critique, I also feel that Pip directly comparing me to a goblin is offensive to goblins.
How dare you insinuate every noble goblin types odious Walls of Text!

Fenris

07-30-2012, 06:26 PM

He was banned for calling me a prick for not banning him via PMs.

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 06:34 PM

EDIT 2: In addition to Poch's critique, I also feel that Pip directly comparing me to a goblin is offensive to goblins.
How dare you insinuate every noble goblin types odious Walls of Text!

But goblins are all illiterate

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 06:38 PM

And by virtue of their illiteracy, they already possess far more integrity than anyone who posts here!!

Amake

07-30-2012, 06:39 PM

Can I just say I'm really happy about all the well spoken knowledgeable compassionate people who have spoken in this thread. Snake, poch, Liz, you're the best, but there's more people deserving of merit here than I can keep track of. It's a pleasure to read this thread and it'll probably go down in history as a teachable moment.

Thank you and goodnight.

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 06:45 PM

And by virtue of their illiteracy, they already possess far more integrity than anyone who posts here!!

Pfft, I've never seen no stinking goblin join us on the picket line.

pochercoaster

07-30-2012, 06:47 PM

I want to emphasize something here. I highly, highly doubt Liz or anyone else who's into these kinds of topics thinks they are completely free of prejudice, because as humans that's pretty much impossible. As such, if someone points out something that I said as prejudiced or offensive, I actually consider it a gesture of respect, because they thought that they could challenge my perspective with the potential for something good to come out of it. There are certain people (not referring to anyone on this board, mind) who are so set in their ways and views that there's nothing to be done about them, and really all you can do is ignore them. I believe the majority of NPFers are NOT these people. However, if we all try to be informative to each other, that it a great benefit to us all.

Many members here have had their views shaped by NPF for the better. Why don't we try to keep that going? Having your views challenged is pretty much always going to feel somewhat offensive, but it is not because the other person is seeking to offend. Pain is part of life, but the pain from changing one's perspective is not insurmountable nor a bad thing. It is quite healthy, in fact.

shiney

07-30-2012, 07:08 PM

Thank you all for the pleasant discourse.

For my part of it, I find it also offensive to have someone, who is defending themselves versus someone saying offensive things, then proceeds to be abjectly offensive in response, and then takes the assumption that because they are correct this is argument enough to justify said behavior. Others have, will disagree with me - it is a noble pursuit, to defend to the absolute teeth that which you strongly hold dear, a society free of prejudice, of bigotry, and of hate. This goal is a difficult one, and often requires a nuanced approach. In this forum, a no-holds-barred scorched earth approach toward enlightening members as to the folly of their ways does not stand.

This is the crux of the decision I made to step back, which I still intend to do, but I feel like I should address it once more before I go on hiatus. I felt that once we had reached the point where members were quitting, and specifically stating the members who were the cause of that decision, and other members were saying in so many words "don't let the door hit you on the way out" suggested that the shark has been jumped. We should not applaud someone's decision to go, or encourage them to get lost. That in itself is hatred, is bigotry; it is a simple matter to say "they enable hatred with their jokes! They empower bigotry by making light of issues that are extremely serious". This is true. The response should not be to insult them, belittle, demean, run them out of town, and make sure they know they are not wanted or welcome. The response should never be one of forced exclusion. That's the very, very thing people are fighting against while simultaneously engaging in the same practice.

You don't put out a fire by setting another bigger fire. Similarly, you don't heal the wounds caused by hatred and division by intentionally creating hatred and division. That's the real way to empower bigotry, in my opinion. It gives them the most perfect strawman excuse to say "You are the same as me".

You aren't. But, your actions don't prove it.

Thanks everyone and I will lurk, but for right now, I don't think I can be around when yet another big wound is festering in this forum and I can't resist the urge to pick at the scab. To side with wanting to include everyone unfortunately puts me in the position of being accused of defending bigotry, and I at least am man enough that, instead of fighting tooth and nail and causing a bigger problem, I can simply walk away.

Time is on our side.

Gregness

07-30-2012, 07:16 PM

Professor Smarmiarty

07-30-2012, 07:20 PM

Do what I do and be bankrupt and homeless. It's top trumps.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 07:24 PM

Thank you all for the pleasant discourse.

I'm hoping you're not being sarcastic.

In this forum, a no-holds-barred scorched earth approach toward enlightening members as to the folly of their ways does not stand.

Fair enough. This is, of course, your forum. And I imagine that Sexay's creation is the foreseeable consequence of your position being taken to its logical conclusion, insofar as it would be disproportionately applied to prevent proponents of minority rights (and the opponents of privilege) from speaking out against ignorance and injustice.

But I will continue to strongly disagree with your contention that the approach of anyone here -- whether Liz, or Pocheros, or myself or anyone else -- in responding aggressively has been 'no-holds-barred scorched earth.' That simply isn't true. As applied to Liz, it's a mischaracterization that's popular largely due to its repeated assertion by Liz's opponents, as opposed to any recent behavior by Liz herself.

I felt that once we had reached the point where members were quitting, and specifically stating the members who were the cause of that decision, and other members were saying in so many words "don't let the door hit you on the way out" suggested that the shark has been jumped.

Where you see an injustice afflicted upon those exiting, I see an injustice afflicted upon someone (in this case, Liz) for daring to speak her mind.

People shouldn't be able to escape liability for their inappropriate statements or sentiments by throwing up a fuss about leaving. And, as I've said before and will say again, there are many more appropriate and mature ways to actually leave the forum, should one feel it's necessary to do so, that do not involve publicly attempting to demonize anyone. There are, furthermore, ways to question the authenticity of the actions of someone like Liz that do not involve this degree of public condemnation merely for standing upon principles against privilege -- one can approach the Mods, flag posts deemed inappropriate for moderation, privately initiate dialogue with the presumed aggressor, etc.

In the case of many of these individuals who are leaving NPF, initially, people like Liz (and others; let's not pretend it's 'just' Liz, Pip also mentioned the legion of 'Goblins' who 'assist' her, which I presume includes individuals like Pocheros and maybe, if I'm optimistic about the company I keep, myself) were being completely rational and calm in their criticisms of others' ignorant positions. In most cases -- not all, but most recent debates -- the parties aggressively attacking ignorance have started in a relatively appropriate demeanor and only been pushed 'over the edge' after repeated belittling of their positions.

I could quote specific examples if you wish, but off the top of my head, the "Square Enix racist Tech Demo" and the "Boycott Atlus" threads immediately jump to mind as examples of this phenomenon.

We should not applaud someone's decision to go, or encourage them to get lost. That in itself is hatred, is bigotry;

Hatred, maybe. I'd respectfully disagree with the assertion that I (or most others here) are 'applauding' a decision to leave, and I'd disagree that even the most vitriolic responses are truly motivated out of hatred of the person; hatred of the principle that person is espousing may be in play, but that's a very different beast.

Bigotry? No. I don't think bigotry is an appropriate word to use in this context.

shiney

07-30-2012, 07:28 PM

The spirit, if not the legal definition of the word.

I'm hoping you're not being sarcastic.

It was said in earnest.

I'm not going to argue your post Snake because you make excellent points. It's what you do. Unfortunately it has little bearing or impact on what I have witnessed or how I feel about the situation. Please continue debating in the way you do because you do a good job at arguing and discussing topics on their merits, and trying to leave the emotional components to the side.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 07:30 PM

Against my better judgment, here goes.

The thing that gets me about Liz is that whenever one of these things blows up (as they seem to every six weeks or so) is that it seems like there's no way for me (as a white heterosexual man) to be a part of the conversation.

Last I checked, I'm a white heterosexual male.
Last I checked, I haven't been categorically excluded from these conversations.

Occasionally, as a consequence of my privilege I've been at greater risk of being just plain ignorant and subsequently wrong in some specific assertions I've made. I've looked foolish, I've stewed for a little while, I've felt guilty and embarrassed over my errors, and I've recovered after a few days of contemplation to continue to participate and learn.

There's no rule against white heterosexual men learning more about what institutional privilege is and how they've benefited from it and why it's an issue that demands fixing. There are certain elements or facets of conduct, insofar as the beneficiaries of privilege are more at risk of saying or thinking things they shouldn't, and so it's worth reading a few blog posts and websites as a preliminary measure to educate oneself on the basics. There's still more that I need to read, and there's certainly more I need to learn.

But it's an ongoing evolution, and either you dive in and subject yourself to the long, meandering process of becoming a better person, or you stonewall because of some perceived, imaginary injustice against one's own honor or credibility, and you remain ignorant and uninformed.

/my opinion, not anyone else's, not necessarily fact, don't take this as the default position of minority rights groups

Ryong

07-30-2012, 07:45 PM

I have to agree with Gregness. The whole thread about boycotting Atlus was basically "you are all complete perverts who fuel the terrible thing that is heterosexual male gaze" over and over.

It shouldn't be such a common thing, having people agree with your general point while doing your best to be caustic towards them. I recall a particular event on the chat where some, well, rather softcore gay picture was posted and, when a few people said "okay then" or that they were disabling images, Liz flipped off on everyone because she's, and this is a near quote, forced to deal with getting het porn thrown at her everywhere and then insulting people who were telling her that no, they haven't randomly posted porn and they also aren't exactly fans of the whole thing.

Yes, these are things in the past, but given that such things keep happening, I feel like it's adequate to bring it up as it doesn't seen like much has changed. It seems like the forum, as a whole, is prone to discussion and insult slinging whenever anything happens. I am not pointing fingers at anyone, as I too have done things I shouldn't have.

I also have to agree with Shiney's "you don't heal the wounds caused by hatred and division by intentionally creating hatred and division". For example, I am not entirely sure how the idea of making another forum to bitch at people from the original is supposed to work.

Unfortunately, I lack the eloquence to explain my feelings more thoroughly on this matter. Safe to say, I'll be trying my best to not be an ass to anyone.

POS Industries

07-30-2012, 07:57 PM

The whole thread about boycotting Atlus was basically "you are all complete perverts who fuel the terrible thing that is heterosexual male gaze" over and over.
That's a very unique interpretation of those events that don't actually seem to be at all based in reality.

I recall a particular event on the chat where some, well, rather softcore gay picture was posted and, when a few people said "okay then" or that they were disabling images, Liz flipped off on everyone because she's, and this is a near quote, forced to deal with getting het porn thrown at her everywhere and then insulting people who were telling her that no, they haven't randomly posted porn and they also aren't exactly fans of the whole thing.
And while it's entirely possible Liz did not react well in this situation, I don't think the events proceeded in the psychotically jarring manner that you are attempting to pass off as historically accurate.

I also have to agree with Shiney's "you don't heal the wounds caused by hatred and division by intentionally creating hatred and division". For example, I am not entirely sure how the idea of making another forum to bitch at people from the original is supposed to work.
Because that's entirely what SP is about. Yes.

Safe to say, I'll be trying my best to not be an ass to anyone.
Ace job so far, bro.

Fenris

07-30-2012, 07:59 PM

For example, I am not entirely sure how the idea of making another forum to bitch at people from the original is supposed to work.

If what I am to understand about the purpose of said other forum is correct, it was basically started by some members who simply wanted a place where they could post as they wished with other posters that they liked, without posters that they did not like present. It was certainly never intended to be a place to bitch about people here. If fifth wanted a place to bitch about people here, he would have started an IRC channel, not a forum, and also he would have been like fucking 15 instead of the grown and respectable human being that we all know that he is.

Also hoo boy you totally missed the ball on the Atlus thread. It was not about the continued perpetuation of the het male gaze, it was due to a history of Atlus being an absolutely fuckawful company in terms of trans rights and the perpetuation of horribly bigoted views regarding such characters.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 08:08 PM

I have to agree with Gregness. The whole thread about boycotting Atlus was basically "you are all complete perverts who fuel the terrible thing that is heterosexual male gaze" over and over.

...You see, when you drastically misinterpret the arguments advanced by people like Liz and I (and others) in that thread, how can you expect people like Liz and I to not become absolutely infuriated with you?

Like, seriously. Seriously now.
There are several posts like this that overtly refute your hypothesis. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1204443#post1204443)
And then there's the initial posts that Liz made in the very first page of the thread, (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=41907) in which Liz generally makes solid, cohesive points regarding the Persona games and backs up the allegations with evidence.

How can you claim that it's our fault for being irrationally angry with you, when your flippant behavior in your overt desire to ignore the points we're actually making and your preference to instead concoct your own faulty reasoning as the basis of our arguments is directly responsible for conjuring said anger?
(I'm reminded that this is a technique quite frequently employed by conservative talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Ignore the opponent's logical arguments, dismiss their arguments as mere emotional appeals, wait until said opponent becomes so frustrated that they inevitably explode in anger after the twentieth dismissal, then act as if the guests' subsequent anger proves their initial point.)

If you actually read the posts, summarized them accurately and then made arguments that -respectfully- disagreed with our perspective, we could at least engage you civilly. But when you don't give us that option, you leave us with increasingly little choice but to shout back what we've actually been trying to say all along to you and hope that at least part of the message sticks.

EDIT: I really shouldn't have dragged this up, but damn it's something I find just as irritating now as I did then.

IHateMakingNames

07-30-2012, 08:09 PM

From what I've seen from that forum it's basically people bitching at each other on how to moderate each other. Then a bunch of threads that nobody really posts in. I assume it's mostly chat based.

Ryong

07-30-2012, 08:10 PM

And while it's entirely possible Liz did not react well in this situation, I don't think the events proceeded in the psychotically jarring manner that you are attempting to pass off as historically accurate.

I am not saying you should take my word for granted but you can ask around in chat if you doubt it. I'd also rather not have my words be taken for random garbage.

Because that's entirely what SP is about. Yes.

From what I've heard so far, that was not the original purpose, but it's what's been happening.

That's a very unique interpretation of those events that don't actually seem to be at all based in reality.

Also hoo boy you totally missed the ball on the Atlus thread. It was not about the continued perpetuation of the het male gaze, it was due to a history of Atlus being an absolutely fuckawful company in terms of trans rights and the perpetuation of horribly bigoted views regarding such characters.

I jumped ship from it early because that was already problematic enough.

Edit: Also, I'm taking too long with these posts.

Snake: I have not, at any point, said I agreed that I'm okay with the issues pointed out by Liz. I have constanly agreed with the points she makes, but tend not to be a fan of the approach to said points.

POS Industries

07-30-2012, 08:11 PM

Like okay I was a bit snide and not at all helpful in my clarifications on why Ryong is wrong on many of these counts but I think there's an important thing to add to the issue of the Atlus thread and many many similar discussions that occur about these sorts of issues in every community in the history of Earth.

Basically, say there's a thing you like. And, okay, that thing isn't perfect but since you like it for the most part you tend to overlook the things that aren't so good. Then someone comes along and points out those things that aren't so good and, hey, they're actually pretty horrible in terms of their impact or commentary on important social issues that are very real and traumatizing to lots of people! So they say, "Hey, this shit in this thing is pretty bad for X amount of reasons and here's a thing we can do to maybe convince them to quit it!"

Now, at this point, it's really easy to be personally offended because you like this thing for stuff completely unrelated to the issue at hand and you think that what's being insinuated is that you also like the shitty stuff. This is a normal reaction and nothing to be ashamed of! But you have to remember that none of this is actually about you. We're not telling you you're bad for liking this thing. Like, Atlus games? Liz actually really likes them, from what I can tell. I mean, she'd have to, because she plays the everloving shit out of them enough to notice all this kinda sad stuff they also, as a company, have a tendency to do. So it's really not a condemnation of the things you actually like, because in all probability Liz likes them too. And she has presented a way to make Atlus games even better.

But it's hard to see that because it's really easy to get your feelings hurt by this natural emotional response our brains like to pull on us, and then once we fall victim to that we start wanting to fight against it because that's the thing that feels good, and then she fights back because this important thing she's talking about is being painted as this other thing that it's not, and then basically it's this endless cycle of nothing of merit getting done and everyone getting mad at each other.

And I guess that's really the thing that happened in the Atlus thread, and I dunno maybe it'd be cool if we could all look out for that in the future by not taking things personally, if even unconsciously, when negative stuff about a thing we like is pointed out.

From what I've heard so far, that was not the original purpose, but it's what's been happening.
It's worth noting that there's a strong possibility you've been misinformed, because what you've heard is quite different from what I've seen.

Ryong

07-30-2012, 08:23 PM

I think I understand how bad things are bad, POS.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 08:24 PM

Yeah sorry that latest Snakepost was more me ragin' against the vast majority of the opposing side's attitude in general back then, which happened to coincide well with your articulation of your own position on the Atlus thread that you made just now.

If you really intended to articulate that you "constantly agreed with the points she makes, but tend not to be a fan of the approach to said points," there were better ways to articulate that than the summary I quoted above, which appeared to suggest a very different opinion.

Mind you, I still disagree with the assertion that Liz has an 'awful approach' to the subject matter, I think Liz has generally been far more civil in recent discussions than she's been given credit for, but at least we can agree to disagree there.

POS Industries

07-30-2012, 08:27 PM

I think I understand how bad things are bad, POS.
But are you able to fight the urge to take things personally when bad things being bad is pointed out? Because if that were true, then I imagine you wouldn't have described the Atlus thread in the way you did.

IHateMakingNames

07-30-2012, 08:28 PM

I think I understand how bad things are bad, POS.
The issue is caring about bad things being bad to the degree that others want others to care about them.

Fenris

07-30-2012, 08:30 PM

I think I understand how bad things are bad, POS.

Gonna say that this is pretty unnecessarily flippant and dismissive of POS's post.

Like, I don't think anybody's saying you don't, they're just saying that people get defensive when stuff they like is criticized, which, well, point proven, I guess?

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 08:32 PM

Gonna say that this is pretty unnecessarily flippant and dismissive of POS's post.

Like, I don't think anybody's saying you don't, they're just saying that people get defensive when stuff they like is criticized, which, well, point proven, I guess?

I'm saying he doesn't, based on his, as you said, flippant dismissal of POS's points.

Ryong

07-30-2012, 08:33 PM

Yeah sorry that latest Snakepost was more me ragin' against the vast majority of the opposing side's attitude in general back then, which happened to coincide well with your articulation of your own position on the Atlus thread that you made just now.

I don't think she'd listen. She hasn't before.

Mind you, I still disagree with the assertion that Liz has an 'awful approach' to the subject matter, I think Liz has generally been far more civil in recent discussions than she's been given credit for, but at least we can agree to disagree there.

Again, I didn't stay in the Atlus thread for long, but you've seen my initial reaction to that.

Given that my personal opinion has been taken for granted a few times, I'm not entirely sure how it actually matters.

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 08:38 PM

I don't think she'd listen. She hasn't before.

Again, I didn't stay in the Atlus thread for long, but you've seen my initial reaction to that.

Given that my personal opinion has been taken for granted a few times, I'm not entirely sure how it actually matters.

If you didn't stay in the thread for long, then why do you feel comfortable judging what the thread was like?

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 08:39 PM

I don't think she'd listen. She hasn't before.

Again, I didn't stay in the Atlus thread for long, but you've seen my initial reaction to that.

...You see, the way I interpret your assertions in this post is essentially:

1: You saw the "Boycott Atlus" thread was made, instinctively disagreed with the title.
2: You saw that Liz was the author of said thread, and instinctively assumed Liz was making irrational, angry arguments when she actually wasn't.
3: You ignored all the actual links Liz made to substantive points and ignored all the factual evidence Liz offered, and cherry-picked a few off-the-cuff statements Liz subsequently made out of frustration to reinforce said perception, and
4: You didn't stay long enough in the thread to read anything that would disprove your initial, flawed hypothesis.

If that's what happens every time Liz makes any kind of argument, it's no wonder she gets frustrated so easily. No one's actually reading anything she writes, they're just making assumptions about her content due to 'past incidents' from way back when, and reacting negatively based solely on those assumptions, which would be easily disproven if her arguments were actually being read.

Ryong

07-30-2012, 08:53 PM

If you didn't stay in the thread for long, then why do you feel comfortable judging what the thread was like?

Okay, those, what, 15 pages of people talking about het male gaze as "wait, this is a thing?" that I saw weren't indicators of the whole thread and it actually progressed? If so, I apologize for saying "the whole thread".

...You see, the way I interpret your assertions in this post is essentially:

1: You saw the "Boycott Atlus" thread was made, instinctively disagreed with the title.
2: You saw that Liz was the author of said thread, and instinctively assumed Liz was making irrational, angry arguments when she actually wasn't.
3: You ignored all the actual links Liz made to substantive points and ignored all the factual evidence Liz offered, and cherry-picked a few off-the-cuff statements Liz subsequently made out of frustration to reinforce said perception, and
4: You didn't stay long enough in the thread to read anything that would disprove your initial, flawed hypothesis.

If that's what happens every time Liz makes any kind of argument, it's no wonder she gets frustrated so easily. No one's actually reading anything she writes, they're just making assumptions about her content due to 'past incidents' from way back when, and reacting negatively based solely on those assumptions, which would be easily disproven if her arguments were actually being read.

I'll admit I did sigh and think "let's see what's this about" when the thread was made. And then I checked the links and made a post based on what I had seen from the issues mentioned, including doing a few google searches to try and find out what was wrong with one picture.

Then rpgdemon said some stupid things and Liz countered with what seemed like rather generic, all-emcopassing "het males are bad" points. Then you all saw my posts on that matter.

I am not attempting to be an ass or anything. I'm just annoyed that a lot of my posts are interpreted in the worst way possible and that I've gotten by quite a few "all x are y" arguments in my time here. No, my track record isn't exactly stellar, but I'm trying to fix that.

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 08:56 PM

man, Liz's posts were anything BUT a simple "het male gaze is wrong." He gave reasons, and explanations, and links and shit.

EDIT: oh jesus christ. "I'm not trying to be an ass." Seriously? Like, that is what you're going with.

Really.

Oh, and you seem to be dismissing and or ignoring the fact that the male gaze is a real thing and a big fuckin problem.

Bells

07-30-2012, 08:59 PM

man, Liz's posts were anything BUT a simple "het male gaze is wrong." He gave reasons, and explanations, and links and shit.

She.

And some of us had trouble, or simply didn't fully understood or agreed with the extent of those reasons and explanations and were nearly castrated because of it.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 09:00 PM

Then rpgdemon said some stupid things and Liz countered with what seemed like rather generic, all-emcopassing "het males are bad" points.

...
...*sigh*

EDIT: Summarizing Liz's argument as simply suggesting that "heterosexual males are bad" completely misses the point of everything substantive that Liz actually posted, and Bells' subsequent comment that suggests that he and other men were "nearly castrated" due to their mere disagreement with Liz in the context of a mere conversation strikes me as equally inappropriate and unnecessarily extreme a summation.

Both quotations appear to imply that Liz was hostile to the very idea that, for example, heterosexual men might find women attractive. (Putting aside how disturbing it is that this argument would be advanced in the context of a game that stars underage girls, and not all of you are in high school...)

...Liz was not the slightest bit hostile to that idea. That's a brazen misrepresentation of the argument of the existence of heterosexual male gaze in media in the first place, which is a lot more about how the media portrays and displays men and women on-camera and less a condemnation of the fact that heterosexual men, like nearly everyone else in the world (excepting asexuals, of course), have sex drives.

Fifthfiend

07-30-2012, 09:02 PM

If I want a forum for bitching about NPF I have one.

It's called NPF.

Marc v4.0

07-30-2012, 09:03 PM

She.

And some of us had trouble, or simply didn't fully understood or agreed with the extent of those reasons and explanations and were nearly castrated because of it.

It is kinda what happens in a debate/discussion when you disagree against something without providing a coherent base for the disagreement back up with evidence and examples that aren't logical fallacies and dismissive derailment tactics. Your point gets torn to complete shreds, and repeated attempts to pick up a mallet and force it don't endear your viewpoint to anyone.

Like, yeah. I get if you don't understand terminology or specific things of that nature, but we all have google. Refusing to self-educate in even the least and then continuing to contribute to the thread anyway is a really really bad idea.

That you admit that you were taking part in the topic without any clarification and still took the debate to such an illogical maze of disruption and derailment really doesn't sit at all.

Overcast

07-30-2012, 09:03 PM

You type a wall or I will be forced to advise therapeutic action.

Ryong

07-30-2012, 09:04 PM

Oh, and you seem to be dismissing and or ignoring the fact that the male gaze is a real thing and a big fuckin problem.

I am not dismissing male gaze as a problem and a real thing or anything like that. I am saying that it isn't something that applies to every single het male ever. I have never made any attempts at proving otherwise.

...
...*sigh*

Yes I misinterpreted a post.

How uncommon is that.

Krylo

07-30-2012, 09:05 PM

Ryong, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole.

You can take my hand. I'll help.

Terex4

07-30-2012, 09:06 PM

I think my favorite part about a "conversation about bigotry" is how it boils down to "Liz is an ass." There are plenty of us who interact with Liz everyday without any problems whatsoever. There are plenty of us who have had differences with Liz and things smoothed over just fine.

I think its funny how no one seems to notice when anyone else posts something against bigotry, as if Liz is the only one who ever argues it. It seems as though its pointless for anyone to be involved except for Liz vs. Opposition and is a large part of the reason I rarely post. What's the point?

Hell, you guys act like those of us who support Liz are never ignorant of anyone else's issues. I had no idea why poch was offended over the bukkake comment, so I looked it up.

The fact of the matter is, this shit hurts, oftentimes deeply. In the Atlus thread, the common argument was "present more evidence." To understand at that moment that the fact people like myself being portrayed as tricksters and deviants was not enough. To know that the shit I deal with everyday wasn't significant enough to warrant so much as a second thought, much less support, really lets a person know their place in the world.

I'm not even going to pretend to speak for others who were impacted by the lack of support, not in the boycott, but in their social issues or walked away with a different message entirely. I speak for myself and myself alone.

Bells

07-30-2012, 09:07 PM

It is kinda what happens in a debate/discussion when you disagree against something without providing a coherent base for the disagreement back up with evidence and examples that aren't logical fallacies and dismissive derailment tactics. Your point gets torn to complete shreds, and repeated attempts to pick up a mallet and force it don't endear your viewpoint to anyone.

You think that was the way people responding were acting, i thought that was the way the other side was talking.

Therefore myself and others became the Netherspawn of satan on earth...

Whoopedy-doo internet discussion...

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 09:07 PM

You type a wall or I will be forced to advise therapeutic action.

I typed a wall for you Overcast!!!! =)
But you'll have to scroll up to read it.

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 09:08 PM

I am not dismissing male gaze as a problem and a real thing or anything like that. I am saying that it isn't something that applies to every single het male ever. I have never made any attempts at proving otherwise.

Yes I misinterpreted a post.

How uncommon is that.

so common that it seems to be, in fact, unintentionally intentional. Also, that thread wasn't about EVERY het male gaze for fucks sake. It's about the ones that cause problems, promote stereo and gendertypes, and now that I'm typing that, DOES seem to apply to most male gaze uses.

But for that threads sake it was about the bad ones, if such a differentiation can even be made about that.

so maybe stop trying to say it was something other than what it was.

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 09:09 PM

You think that was the way people responding were acting, i thought that was the way the other side was talking.

Therefore myself and others became the Netherspawn of satan on earth...

Whoopedy-doo internet discussion...

It's not nice how you're trivializing it like it was no big thang.

Marc v4.0

07-30-2012, 09:11 PM

Nique

07-30-2012, 09:12 PM

And some of us had trouble, or simply didn't fully understood or agreed with the extent of those reasons and explanations and were nearly castrated because of it.

Is everyone seriously not having a problem with people comparing acts of physical violence and abuse to someone getting mad at them on the internet in a discussion about groups who are often in a position of enduring those things?

I'm not saying a little hyperbole isn't ok every now and then but this is a problem because 1) It's a strawman fallacy pure and simple and 2) it appears to be escalating. What's next? Did Liz rape you with her meanness?

Krylo

07-30-2012, 09:16 PM

Hey Grim, maybe like, take a step back and take a deep breath. Like, you seem to be getting a little angry, and lets try to keep this from drama bombing again.

Also, for everyone: Heterosexual Male Gaze (or Het Male Gaze, or more commonly Male Gaze) doesn't reference to the gaze of any actual heterosexual males.

What refers to is how the media panders to things that heterosexual males appreciate. See the 'butts and boob' poses that pretty much every female comic book character gets in nearly every shot they're in. That is to say that, regardless of how ridiculous it is, both the butt and boobs must be visible in any given shot of a woman.

That's just a super easy example, and one you can verify yourself.

For more examples this tumblr (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) is pretty great for basic printed ones. Or do some outside research.

When someone says 'male gaze' or 'het male gaze' or whatever, they aren't talking about you staring at some lady's butt too long in the checkout line. In fact, I don't think anyone REALLY blames you if you do that now and then. I mean, you should try not to, but hormones, amirite?

What they are talking about is how nearly all the media we have stares at every woman's butt too long, or how women in television usually can't have a full conversation without talking about boys or how every 'strong female character' has to have rape as their backstory, or a million other terrible things.

It's important to be able to separate that from yourself. It's also important to realize that as heterosexual males it's even okay to like it when camera angles pan to your sexuality! No one is telling you that you can't! What they are saying is that you should be cognizant of why they're problematic and how much better our media would be if maybe women could talk about things other than boys for more than five minutes, or a strong female character could be strong because her parents died and she learned to be a ninja to avenge them instead of because she was raped and swore to become powerful so NEVER AGAIN, or nearly raped and the emotional trauma hardened her or whatever terrible thing.

That's all it means, and I trust we can all agree the world would be a better place if we didn't have it so pervasively in our media.

Bells

07-30-2012, 09:17 PM

Is everyone seriously not having a problem with people comparing acts of physical violence and abuse to someone getting mad at them on the internet in a discussion about groups who are often in a position of enduring those things?

I'm not saying a little hyperbole isn't ok every now and then but this is a problem because 1) It's a strawman fallacy pure and simple and 2) it appears to be escalating. What's next? Did Liz rape you with her meanness?

No, it was just because the conversation was about an entire subject, and yet that whole subject was focused on a single series of a single company posted in the Games subforum (so, not even a general discussion). to which, i, myself suggested that that might not be the best venue to talk about that topic in that way in that place...

You make a thread about Atlus or Sony or Mojang, then i want to discuss about Atlus, Sony or Mojang... but in that thread we couldn't, cause it was about eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverything. Then, if we opened up to include everything ("so, what about this one and that one?") we got shot down because it was just about Atlus and how everybody was shitty for not demonizing the shitty thing the shitty company was doing...

Krylo

07-30-2012, 09:19 PM

No, it was just because the conversation was about an entire subject, and yet that whole subject was focused on a single series of a single company posted in the Games subforum (so, not even a general discussion). to which, i, myself suggested that that might not be the best venue to talk about that topic in that way in that place...

You make a thread about Atlus or Sony or Mojang, then i want to discuss about Atlus, Sony or Mojang... but in that thread we couldn't, cause it was about eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverything. Then, if we opened up to include everything ("so, what about this one and that one?") we got shot down because it was just about Atlus and how everybody was shitty for not demonizing the shitty thing the shitty company was doing...

Bells, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole.

You can take my hand. I'll help.
.

Fenris

07-30-2012, 09:21 PM

Bells

07-30-2012, 09:22 PM

and So Krylo, Ryong and Bells walked towards the light.
Hand helds and hearts light.
Away, away, tonight was the night it was alright.

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 09:22 PM

Fuck you krylo you piece of shit.

I can't see that avatar and not start singing.

Grand Master Kickface

07-30-2012, 09:37 PM

I know I said I'd quit the forums, and I still intend to abide by that statement, but I figured I'd chime in with my two cents now that I've had more time to think about this.

"Progressive" is not an objective idea. Everyone believes that they are on the side of righteousness, that their personal set of morals are the universal standard against which all others should be judged.

I deeply value individuality, and the freedom to disagree. Within my own set of values, it is more progressive to be committed to mutual respect and the freedom to hold deviant opinions without reprisal than it is to demand that all media, speech, and expression be made completely inoffensive to particular groups of people, no matter through what means, no matter what else is sacrificed. To me, that is totalitarianism. Shame is oppression, no matter how justified the shamer believes him/herself to be. When you shame someone, you deny them their personhood.

"Progressiveness" is comforting to identity. Individuality is essential to it. This forum has made me feel that I cannot have both, and so I choose to walk away to assert my sense of self. Possessing a sense of agency is more important to me than falling in line with somebody else's universal declaration of what "progressiveness" is and is not. It no longer matters to me if I am a bigot, because at least I am a bigot who owns his own thoughts.

The entire framework of "right" and "wrong" doesn't even matter to me anymore. I need to be an individual person, and this forum has repeatedly sent the message, whether through direct censorship or tacit shaming, that I cannot be that person here. So once again, I say goodbye. I'm grateful to have learned things here, but I need a belonging that allows me to be.

A Zarkin' Frood

07-30-2012, 09:37 PM

This thread has taken a turn for the worse, it used to be about drama and arguments and arguments about arguments. And now you fucking fucks had to ruin it fuck you.

E: Oh, Grandmaster Kick Face saved it again.

Ryong

07-30-2012, 09:44 PM

Ryong, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole.

You can take my hand. I'll help.

I'm not exactly the only one who dug this hole.

With that out of the way:

I misinterpreted a post based on a member's track record. This is not a concept so alien to any of you as this is exactly what I've been talking about for the last few posts as it being a thing that keeps happening with mine. I have to admit I'm pissed because it seems the only way for anything I say to matter is if I don't agree 100% with someone, as otherwise I'm ignored. That and I keep being thrown in "all of you" arguments where I don't agree with shit that the group does or thinks. I would like if my opinion mattered when I'm right too, not just when I'm wrong.

Terex, I don't think anyone goes off the handle when people post about a subject that is agreed on being a bad thing, but Liz has in the past, managed to portray her points in ways that make most people who would normally agree, disagree. Of course bigotry is bad, of course sexism is bad, of course racism, transphobia, homophobia, outlawed gay marriages and I could go on and on and on on how all this shit and more is so terrible, but then a point gets made in a way that either you agree with the same fervor of the person who made it or you're terrible forever, no better than people who openly support all that and suddenly you're under fire for it.

Nique

07-30-2012, 09:55 PM

Guys, stop victimizing yourselves. No one is buying it because no one actually thinks what you are saying they think.

Magus

07-30-2012, 09:56 PM

Krylo

07-30-2012, 10:00 PM

I'm not exactly the only one who dug this hole.

With that out of the way:

I misinterpreted a post based on a member's track record. This is not a concept so alien to any of you as this is exactly what I've been talking about for the last few posts as it being a thing that keeps happening with mine. I have to admit I'm pissed because it seems the only way for anything I say to matter is if I don't agree 100% with someone, as otherwise I'm ignored. That and I keep being thrown in "all of you" arguments where I don't agree with shit that the group does or thinks. I would like if my opinion mattered when I'm right too, not just when I'm wrong.

Terex, I don't think anyone goes off the handle when people post about a subject that is agreed on being a bad thing, but Liz has in the past, managed to portray her points in ways that make most people who would normally agree, disagree. Of course bigotry is bad, of course sexism is bad, of course racism, transphobia, homophobia, outlawed gay marriages and I could go on and on and on on how all this shit and more is so terrible, but then a point gets made in a way that either you agree with the same fervor of the person who made it or you're terrible forever, no better than people who openly support all that and suddenly you're under fire for it.

Of course you're not the only person that dug it. You were just the one in it.

Well you and Bells.

That said: What I meant by that post, for both you and Bells, because I believe that you both actually believe more or less the same things I do about sexism etc. is that you should both step back for a bit.

Really read over what has been said, maybe re-read what Liz said and my own recent elucidations about the male gaze, and then just let that ruminate for a while. Let it bounce around in your head for say, fifteen minutes, maybe a half hour. However long it takes you to not be defensive, because no one is trying to attack you, and then ask yourself:

"Are they saying things I actually disagree with?"

Because I don't think anyone really is, Liz included. And then, ask yourself, "Do I want to argue over something I basically agree with?"

Like, I don't know about you, but I get in big messy arguments (most often with Pochy, sometimes with Liz, sometimes with other people here) over silly things like, well, like what I'm talking about here.

And when it's all done I feel a little silly for having gotten into an argument with someone I basically agree with.

And as, from my perspective, you basically agree with Liz, Snake, Grim, Marc, Terex, Pochy, etc. about the important things here, I'm thinking maybe it's just best to step back and let what they're saying sink in a bit.

Maybe I'm wrong!

Maybe I missed something! God knows I didn't have time to fully read the whole mess of posts that happened today while I was at work, but from my perspective I think everyone could just come to a basic agreement on a few things:

1: That Sexism/Homophobia/Transphobia/whatever else is bad.

2: That we should do what we can to reduce bad things.

And

3: That it's kind of shitty to leap to conclusions about someone's tone/intent and attack them, whether directly or indirectly, over it. In fact that's kinda what Pip felt was happening to him!

Now on 3, that's pretty much a natural thing to do, and I don't think anyone is saying you/Bells/whomever else are bad people for maybe doing it a little bit. They're just trying to say that, hey, to us it looks like you're doing this thing, and maybe you could quit doing this thing.

And, as that you basically, right here: "I misinterpreted a post based on a member's track record." admitted that you maybe did that a little, and, in the following sentence, pointed out that you're cognizant of how shitty it is to be on the receiving end of that (as you feel you have been), I think that a full agreement of:

"Hey yeah I did a thing, and I'm sorry I did a thing, but I'll try to refrain from doing that thing in the future," isn't that impossible or far off.

That's what I meant by the hole thing. It wasn't really meant as a dig* at you at all.

In fact, quite the opposite! I think you're a pretty alright guy in general and, for that reason, I think that if you disentangle from this and think it over you'll come out of it looking and feeling better.

*Get it? Because digging a hole and then. . . yeah you get it.

Ecks

07-30-2012, 10:27 PM

i like this thread now it gives me warm fuzzy feelings inside

that could just be indigestion though im not really sure

Grimpond

07-30-2012, 10:27 PM

In the future I hope all controversial threads go like this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=42013&page=2) and reach their logical conclusion nearly immediately and get locked within a day or so. No sense dickering about anymore.

Note: My purpose in linking rape jokes was not necessarily to say rape jokes are funny, but to get to the logical conclusion of the thread more quickly. In fact I stated that in my posts. POS just going ahead and locking it was even more profound.

I honestly think we will be able to get this down to a science, people.

Holy shit. Seriously?

THat isn't a good fucking excuse for rape jokes. That is terrible thing to say. There is NO excuse for rape jokes. they are always, always terrible. YOu turned a potentially good thread into utter shit IMMEDIATELY when you hit submit. It could have gone somewhere else, maybe.

Solid Snake

07-30-2012, 10:50 PM

The irony interlaced in Magus' convoluted explanation is that I'd honesty hold less animosity towards him if he honestly, mistakenly provided a link to material he erroneously assumed was hysterical, as opposed to the shenanigans he apparently was up to.

To believe that you deliberately posted those links in an effort to antagonize the conversation or bring the dialogue to an abrupt close, Magus, is to believe that you deliberately posted material you knew was offensive, and in fact you fully anticipated the kind of reaction it would provoke from someone like Pocheros.

...In that case, you basically sent Pocheros (and should have sent the rest of us; it's my mistake for not watching the links beforehand and coming to a more informed opinion) into a justified fury solely for your amusement.

...The alternative, of course, is to simply believe that your mistake was one of privileged ignorance, and that you basically thought to yourself "Man this shit is funny," and of course it really wasn't funny at all. But in that case, at least you'd learn something from this ordeal, and presumably you'd have meant no harm to Pocheros or anyone else, and you'd apologize profusely and everyone would move on.

Yes, engaging in misogyny as a byproduct of one's ignorance would undeniably lead to swift and voracious condemnation of one's conduct, and the message intertwined therein, but assuming the mistake was conceded and lessons were learn, I doubt there'd be any lasting damage to one's integrity. After all, every beneficiary of institutional privilege is a bit ignorant on certain touchy subjects. But to claim knowledge of the offense, and engage in the destructive conduct nonetheless? That's low.

/ my opinion, not anyone else's stance

POS Industries

07-30-2012, 10:50 PM

Ecks

07-30-2012, 11:00 PM

dude magus that was probably the shittiest thing ever

for shame

Terex4

07-30-2012, 11:20 PM

Terex, I don't think anyone goes off the handle when people post about a subject that is agreed on being a bad thing, but Liz has in the past, managed to portray her points in ways that make most people who would normally agree, disagree. Of course bigotry is bad, of course sexism is bad, of course racism, transphobia, homophobia, outlawed gay marriages and I could go on and on and on on how all this shit and more is so terrible, but then a point gets made in a way that either you agree with the same fervor of the person who made it or you're terrible forever, no better than people who openly support all that and suddenly you're under fire for it.
I'm just going to throw this out there, but I don't think for a moment that when anyone reflects on any of these threads, "man Ryong really shitted that thing up" is the first thought thing that floats to the top.

My point was that, with the ATLUS thread being the prime example I pulled it from, many points were laid out explaining what was going on and why. Other people went into the thread and basically said "not good enough, I need more." And continued to pound the concept that it simply wasn't enough to be properly outraged over.

Some were far, far worse than others.

The simple fact of the matter is, there are threads that sometimes, you just don't need to respond to. Other times a simple google search will take care of the problem. Like I said above, I had no idea why exactly poch was offended over the bukkake comment, so I looked it up. I didn't have to ask anything beyond that.

This place is recreational, its an escape for you, an escape for me, and everyone else here. To come here and be confronted with the same brand of bullshit I came inside to get away from is ridiculous. That's why I started going to the other forum, I feel safe there. I know that if I'm going to log in to find a totally WTF thread, its going to be a link to a news article, not the bullshittery of other members.

This whole Liz issue has turned into a Frankenstein-esque mob and a cry for justice. A cry for justice in retaliation to another member's cry for justice.

And yeah, you might get your fingers singed when asking for information, some of us have to spend a lot of time off the internet justifying or explaining ourselves. I don't even know how many times I've tried to explain why my transition is necessary (and it is not easy to convey those feelings accurately.) Those of us who can be bothered to do so get sick of it while others just don't explain much, if anything, for that reason. If you're on the internet, then you're more than capable of finding that information without being just another person pestering us for information.

Marelo

07-30-2012, 11:28 PM

(and should have sent the rest of us; it's my mistake for not watching the links beforehand and coming to a more informed opinion) into a justified fury solely for your amusement.

Wow, yeah, I didn't have a chance to actually watch those videos 'cause I was at work when most of this went down. I am agreed with this sentiment.

pochercoaster

07-31-2012, 12:22 AM

Can I put this GIF here? It's a bit late, but...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5jduggPnu1ro54pzo1_500.gif

Magus

07-31-2012, 12:39 AM

Holy shit. Seriously?

THat isn't a good fucking excuse for rape jokes. That is terrible thing to say. There is NO excuse for rape jokes. they are always, always terrible. YOu turned a potentially good thread into utter shit IMMEDIATELY when you hit submit. It could have gone somewhere else, maybe.

Maybe but that would have been pointless? If a discussion about rape jokes is off limits then there's simply no point in going "Let's talk about EDGY humor...just not quite that edgy. Maybe just stick to murder, torture, racism, and the Holocaust."

And no Snake, I didn't deliberately TRY to be offensive, I deliberately tried to get to the most offensive humor in order to get to an actual worthwhile discussion. My comment about it leading directly to people posting two offended posts and POS just up and closing it is more of a retconned comment on the current state of the forum: people flip their shit and the topic is then closed. At this rate we should just develop a formula for all future threads to save ourselves the trouble of having two pages of posts: 1. Thread topic. 2. Most extreme issue of discussion comes up. 3. Everybody bitches at each other. 4. Thread gets closed. We can get this down to ten posts, max.

So no I didn't actually "plan" it. But it would have been the perfect plan.

EDIT:

Like here is that topic in a nutshell:

1. Bells: "Here is some edgy humor."

2. Magus: "I dunno, man, didn't you see that bigotry topic and how that went."

3. Krylo: "No one learned anything."

4. Magus: "Fine here is some rape jokes."

5. Bells: "Here is a gay rape joke since Magus set the tone."

6. Magus: "I mean it's like if you're going to talk about edgy comedy might as well go straight to the rape jokes. "

7. A bunch of people talk about rape jokes and whether they are okay (in a somewhat circuitous manner of discussion that ultimately goes nowhere like our convos usually go, and I'm not saying I'm any better at them, because I'm not. I am circuitous as the next man, but maybe lessons were learned).

8. Grimpond and pocheros say they are offended by rape jokes and that they are never acceptable.

9. POS closes topic.

I'm not sure of his motive, unless it was to avoid another yelling contest (which is like, why would I yell at Grimpond or pocheros instead of just responding to their posts in my usual manner), or just the rape jokes part of the thread, or pocheros post summed up everything that could be said on the topic, or whatever discussion could have been gleaned was gleaned (probably not).

That said, in the future I hope we could all just be like, "No, don't post about rape jokes" and then I could just edit them out or whatever and we could go ahead and have that edgy but not too edgy joke topic or whatever.

ANOTHER EDIT:

I mean hell pochero's post then had a funny Wanda Sykes' bit in it that was anti-rape so the topic was still serving its purpose while simultaneously speaking out against rape jokes, so I see no reason the thread couldn't have continued.

Overcast

07-31-2012, 12:51 AM

I do wish I'd been able to post in that thread. The comedic approach to troubling topics, the comedic attempt to challenge racial stereotypes without reinforcing them, the variables between shock comedy and therapeutic release of personal trouble with hazardous subject matter and the ultimate question of if a person is allowed to shed light on a topic if they are not intrinsically tied to it are things I've thought hard on for a long time.

pochercoaster

07-31-2012, 12:56 AM

This is already way off topic but here goes. On humour. (http://austin.culturemap.com/newsdetail/07-12-12-14-37-the-best-response-weve-heard-to-daniel-toshs-misquoted-rape-jokes/) Here is an excerpt.

1) Theoretically, there is no subject that should be considered off-limits for humor.

2) There will always be some example where a performer of extremely high skill can take something very painful and make it work. [Note: I consider Wanda Sykes an example of this. Carlin and Louis, however, did not make it work.]

But...

Here's what YOU need to understand:

1) Rape is way, WAY more prevalent than you seem to think it is. Are there more than five women in your audience? You do the math, and then you run the little fantasy scenario that I just put together in your head, and you tell me how it feels.

2) I ain't buying any of that "If I can make jokes about genocide, why can't I make jokes about rape?" Horseshit, unless you made those genocide jokes during a gig at the Srebrenica Funny Bone. You got away with making a joke about genocide because your odds of having a holocaust survivor's kid in the audience were pretty fucking low.

And if you did happen to have one in the audience, and he heckled you, walked out, and wrote something nasty on the internet... would you be more likely to be a human being and say "Wow. I can understand why that person's authentic response to what I was doing was so emotional and negative. Maybe my genocide material just isn't good enough to justify the pain that it inflicts. Maybe I need more skill in order to pull this off." Or are you gonna be a lousy piece of shit and say, "Yeah, I apologize, I guess, IF YOU WERE OFFENDED."

Offended hasn't got anything to do with it, moron.

People have wounds, and those wounds are painful. That doesn't have shit to do with the weak concept of "taking offense." If someone talks about Texas being a shitty state, I might "take offense" at that. Fine, whatever. All of us who like comedy are generally in agreement with the idea that "taking offense" is lame, and a comedian should be willing to "offend" whenever he or she wants to.

But causing pain is quite a different fucking matter. Your job as a comedian is to take us through pain, transcend pain, transform pain. And if you don't get that, you are a fucking bully, and I've got zero time for bullies.

People have been shitting on oppressed groups forever. Shitting on them through comedy, and a comedian going "amirite" through shitting on them is not edgy. It's the norm. It's the status quo. And it's horrible.

Edgy is pointing out oppression. Edgy is pointing out privilege. Edgy is enlightening. Edgy is educational. Edgy is anti-ignorance. Edgy is asking important questions.

By the way, I didn't read any of the thread, just watched the two videos of rape jokes by Carlin and Louis and decided that was enough.

Nique

07-31-2012, 01:02 AM

But Pocheros, isn't asking a comedian to not say something offensive actually the worst kind of oppression?

Overcast

07-31-2012, 01:04 AM

Not really, it is a request at best in this country.

Magus

07-31-2012, 01:08 AM

Yeah, I don't think "let's make threads terrible so they'll reach the terrible conclusion I expect of them and get locked more quickly" is a particularly good philosophy as opposed to "let's just try not to make threads terrible."

Though I guess if you're committed to that goal it's good that you've stood up and declared it openly so that we know who to eventually remove when threads keep going downhill, what with trolling being against the rules and all.

Like I said, I wasn't actually committed to that goal but I kind of wish I had been, it would make things make more sense. Like I started this good natured Grammar Nazi (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=41887) thread and everyone somehow ruined it with their misanthropy! When we can't even have fun making fun of bad grammar or whatever it's pretty telling. At least with a topic with rape jokes in it it makes (somewhat) more sense. Though ironically everyone was more civil in that one than on much less serous topics, so...man I don't even know.

TDK

07-31-2012, 01:08 AM

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5jduggPnu1ro54pzo1_500.gif

^

Related: Liz is a pretty big asshole pretty much all of the time, he's a perfect example of an overzealous white knight. It is not the responsibility or obligation of anyone to try and force people to change their views which may or may not be wrong (they are called opinions for a reason) for the active betterment of society, even if it would be great if everyone actively worked to make society better. In fact, its pretty bigoted to be a huge dick to someone just because of their views. There's an old addage that says two wrongs don't make a right, maybe we should take that to heart.

I think my main reason for saying Liz is an asshole is that I feel like he really, genuinely never considers the idea that he is wrong. Also because he is overly caustic with anyone he has the slightest disagreement with. Like, jesus christ have you heard of the idea of tact? You don't need to be all calling people overprivileged biggoted assclowns when they suggest that hey maybe islam is not very healthy for a society* or whatever people are arguing about this week.

*I guess this is what the draw muhammed day thing was about? I didn't read that thread. But its not relevant to my point.

Also, I feel pretty oppressed when Liz and people like him refer to white males and talk about privilege and whatever, like its every individual person's fault that people are oppressed and stuff. White males don't oppress people. Assholes oppress people.

But none of this is really relevant to the current topic, I just missed the part of the conversation where people were pointing out why they think Liz is a dick.

pochercoaster

07-31-2012, 01:12 AM

TDK, my gif was not directed at Liz. But I guess that's not surprising since I didn't accompany it with text and you'd have to go back a few pages to find my posts and opinion on the matter. :dance:

You don't need to be all calling people overprivileged biggoted assclowns when they suggest that hey maybe islam is not very healthy for a society* or whatever people are arguing about this week.

This is bigotry. You are bigoted.

Magus

07-31-2012, 01:13 AM

I honestly can't believe people bitch this much about Liz. Hey, people, guess what? She's one person. If you disagree with her just go ahead and disagree with her. If she is caustic to you ignore her. You'll save yourselves a lot of trouble.

Like honestly if she is overzealously trying to convince you of something and you dislike it it's pointless to then try and overzealously convince her back or whatever.

Also like seriously she is banned right now, right? If you were banned would you like people talking a bunch of shit about you, however (supposedly) deserved?

TDK

07-31-2012, 01:14 AM

Man people talked all kinds of shit about me every time I was banned, you don't know, you're one of the privileged unbanned oppressors.

Of course, I deserved it since every time I was banned I was being a twat (also I was like twelve years old on average). Much like in this case!

Magus

07-31-2012, 01:17 AM

Hmm, really? I thought everyone got banned once, even if just jokingly.

Nique

07-31-2012, 01:17 AM

White males don't oppress people.

I do.

I enjoy and take advantage of privileges accorded me daily because of being a white male. I don't think this makes me an asshole, it makes society fucked up. What really makes someone an asshole is having every reason to understand what privilege entails, and refusing to acknowledge that it exists so that they continue to perpetuate how fucked up society is.

Also, I feel pretty oppressed when Liz and people like him refer to white males

Appropriating this rhetoric because someone pointed out how you are privileged or said something offensive is hugely offensive to people who are actually oppressed.

Sifright

07-31-2012, 01:18 AM

I think it's mostly like i said earlier in the thread. All the people who are disagreeing or demanding more evidence purely because 'there isn't enough' are doing so because the topic at hand happens to be something they've enjoyed and they are unwilling to deal with the cognitive dissonance of enjoying something that at the same time has promoted terrible views. People have immediate knee jerk reactions to that and it kills the ability to have dialogue as people don't want to admit that the media they consume could espouse problematic views.

of course we also have a problem with people not understanding specific terminology and then thinking it's about them personally, i'd like to say this particular one is a two way street failure to communicate. On the one hand it's very easy to use google to find this information and educate your self on the particulars and on the other hand the person doing the communicating also needs to express them selves in a way that is understandable to the person they are talking to, I understood the term 'male gaze' due to inference and what I already thought about most media but for people whom english isn't a first language it might be that simple and it's easy to get confused think a term could be describing you personally because you don't understand the context or explicit meaning.

Mostly though it's pretty obvious that what has happened is that people have allowed their pride to get the better of them and they are cherry picking points that people make and ignoring the rest.

Marelo

07-31-2012, 01:21 AM

he's

My impression has been that Liz prefers feminine pronouns.

Also, I feel pretty oppressed when Liz and people like him refer to white males and talk about privilege and whatever, like its every individual person's fault that people are oppressed and stuff. White males don't oppress people. Assholes oppress people.

This is ridiculous.

Magus

07-31-2012, 01:22 AM

This is ridiculous.

Not if you read it as satire.

POS Industries

07-31-2012, 01:23 AM

You don't need to be all calling people overprivileged biggoted assclowns when they suggest that hey maybe islam is not very healthy for a society* or whatever people are arguing about this week.

*I guess this is what the draw muhammed day thing was about? I didn't read that thread. But its not relevant to my point.
Oh my god, TDK. This is your chance to walk away. I'm giving you this warning, this one, final opportunity, to walk away from this discussion and never return. This statement here, not at all helped by your following nonsense about how white males are oppressed by pointing out how easy we really do have it in western society by virtue of being white males, is completely and utterly indefensible. It really is overpriviliged bigoted assclownery, and I get that you don't seem to understand why that is.

Just believe me when I tell you that it really, really is.

There is no way you can salvage this into a coherent argument. You cannot argue this point. Any attempt to do so will result in you saying something even worse that will get you banned. Maybe permanently, seeing as you have this whole multi-year history of being permabanned that we decided to, in a fit of compassion and forgiveness, finally end to give you a second chance. That chance could end right now, do you get that?

You don't have to apologize, though a sincere apology would not be frowned upon. Not an "I'm sorry if you were offended" thing. A real one where you get that it is completely unacceptable to say something like that here. But that is not being demanded.

I am simply asking that you walk away from this conversation now and never look back. It is the simplest and fastest way to salvage your continued membership on these forums.

Sifright

07-31-2012, 01:24 AM

^

Related: Liz is a pretty big asshole pretty much all of the time, he's a perfect example of an overzealous white knight. It is not the responsibility or obligation of anyone to try and force people to change their views which may or may not be wrong (they are called opinions for a reason) for the active betterment of society, even if it would be great if everyone actively worked to make society better. In fact, its pretty bigoted to be a huge dick to someone just because of their views. There's an old addage that says two wrongs don't make a right, maybe we should take that to heart.

I think my main reason for saying Liz is an asshole is that I feel like he really, genuinely never considers the idea that he is wrong. Also because he is overly caustic with anyone he has the slightest disagreement with. Like, jesus christ have you heard of the idea of tact? You don't need to be all calling people overprivileged biggoted assclowns when they suggest that hey maybe islam is not very healthy for a society* or whatever people are arguing about this week.

*I guess this is what the draw muhammed day thing was about? I didn't read that thread. But its not relevant to my point.

Also, I feel pretty oppressed when Liz and people like him refer to white males and talk about privilege and whatever, like its every individual person's fault that people are oppressed and stuff. White males don't oppress people. Assholes oppress people.

But none of this is really relevant to the current topic, I just missed the part of the conversation where people were pointing out why they think Liz is a dick.

This post however is just ridiculous, EVERY ONE must work together to educate people on why their culture is currently the most horrendous rotten taint of shit that exists, because all cultures have very very terrible views accepted as basic fact with no critical thought applied to it.

t is not the responsibility or obligation of anyone to try and force people to change their views which may or may not be wrong (they are called opinions for a reason)

This is the bullshit part.

We live in a global society for the most part in regards to flow of ideas and it is not okay to think terrible shit we ALL have a responsibility to change the environment to the better and I'm not okay with the idea that we personally don't have responsibility to change things for the better because if we don't who will?

Edit: there are actually other bullshit parts to but that was the most prominent part.

Double edit:

It's also abundantly clear you have no idea what is meant by the term white privilege which doesn't surprise me.

triple edit:

See this is exactly what I said would be the case, it's not about fact it's about emotion no one argues free from emotion and it's incredibly clear people aren't able to internalise the points being made because they get into an emotional state begin to reject the points on hand because they feel angry that they are being associated with something they feel they don't agree with.

Magus

07-31-2012, 01:26 AM

TDK quoting me as saying something about bukkake

See now I wish I had said something about bukkake so that quoting me saying something about bukkake made sense. Because I've always wanted to say something about bukkake.

EDIT:

MAN SOMEONE NINJA'D THAT POST AWAY. So now it looks like I actually did just say something about bukkake.

...bukkake.

Fenris

07-31-2012, 01:27 AM

Hey TDK how about you actually read some of the thread before you take it back approximately 24 hours in understanding.

And hey poch/sif might want to cool off a little bit, this is getting unnecessarily heated.

Pretend this post is yellow.

Marc v4.0

07-31-2012, 01:30 AM

Pretend this post is yellow.

I see you shop at discount dan's gently used goods for your mod color paint :D

TDK

07-31-2012, 01:34 AM

Sifright

07-31-2012, 01:35 AM

I read the entire thread (except for Snake's posts because jesus snake), evidently my views disagree with the majority or I'm terrible at explaining things or privileged or something.

Also, the thing about bukkake was said by Pocheros, I might have labelled it wrong?

I deleted my last post because POS was all rawr modtext, and I don't have that much stake in this conversation.

This ends my tenure in this thread for aforementioned reasons. Everyone is cordially invited to come join my new thread, which is about cats.

You are pretty privileged it's true and completely and utterly blissfully unaware..

Edit: it's more that your view is an ignorant one and you are clearly unable to get past the feeling of being offended
Basically read this wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege and understand that white priveledge is something a white person has and never has to even be aware of because that is their base line norm, for other races their base line norm in terms of respect and treatment from society is entirely different.

Edit: (This is aimed at every one) Also when communicating try not to use Idioms specific to your own culture to point out something to people. Things like digging a hole don't have the same meaning in say Portuguese or Japanese as they do in English. Idioms should not be used in discussions such as this because they do not impart ideas with any degree of clarity keeping in mind we have a global forum population.

Red Fighter 1073

07-31-2012, 01:38 AM

^ Pocheros, your gif seems pretty indicative of every single person on this forum, whether they're the ones constantly judging others, the ones constantly feeling like they're being judged, or both.

But my complaint with discussion about debatable topics on this forum is the end goal of users on this forum. Is the end goal for you to just prove that you're right and they're wrong? Or is it to actually attempt to educate/change people's opinions? I would think that it's the latter or else all the Atlus, COD, [insert other controversial thread here] would seem pretty pointless. I don't know how to get into this without saying tone argument, but that's basically what I think one part of what it is.

What I'm saying is that instead of hurrying to call everyone a bigot, can we not just step back and say, "Hey, this one action of yours that just did is incredibly bigoted. Here is why. You should stop doing it." You don't need to preface with any "I don't mean to offend you and I really like you as a person and blah blah blah". But I just figure that if the end goal is for people to actually learn, then this course of action would be much more conducive to actual learning than hurrying to call them a bigot. Because more often not, that causes them to get defensive, not listen to any subsequent point you make, regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Then the whole point of calling them out is seemingly lost because they'll probably think that what they said was perfectly fine and keep on saying it. This method doesn't work with everyone, but I feel like more often than not, people are ready to jump on others for making ignorant statements rather than trying to educate them thereby perpetuating the ignorance.

Marc v4.0

07-31-2012, 01:42 AM

^ Pocheros, your gif seems pretty indicative of every single person on this forum, whether they're the ones constantly judging others, the ones constantly feeling like they're being judged, or both.

But my complaint with discussion about debatable topics on this forum is the end goal of users on this forum. Is the end goal for you to just prove that you're right and they're wrong? Or is it to actually attempt to educate/change people's opinions? I would think or at least that it's the latter or else all the Atlus, COD, would seem pretty pointless. I don't know how to get into this without saying tone argument, but that's basically what I think one part of what it is.

What I'm saying is that instead of hurrying to call everyone a bigot, can we not just step back and say, "Hey, this one action of yours that just did is incredibly bigoted. Here is why. You should stop doing it." You don't need to preface with any "I don't mean to offend you and I really like you as a person and blah blah blah". But I just figure that if the end goal is for people to actually learn, then this course of action would be much more conducive to actual learning than hurrying to call them a bigot. Because more often not, that causes them to get defensive, not listen to any subsequent point you make, regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Then the whole point of calling them out is seemingly lost because they'll probably think that what they said was perfectly fine and keep on saying it. This method doesn't work with everyone, but I feel like more often than not, people are ready to jump on others for making ignorant statements rather than trying to educate them.

EDIT: Well fuck, TDK posted [I]that and now this point's probably going to get ignored.

That is all well and good, but It has already been admitted that past actions tinted responses to those topics, and people came to those topics with hostility already primed before even having a chance to become 'offended'. The evidence is in the topics themselves, and the subsequent shitfest that has occurred here.

Amake

07-31-2012, 01:55 AM

If it's too hard to be the change you want to see in the world, you can also try being as close to nothing at all as you can manage. Disappear into yourself and limit the points where you intersect with the world. I've done that for years; I do it for short periods whenever the pressure to act correctly gets too much for me. It doesn't help anyone, but you do what you have to to survive while limiting the damage you cause.

It's probably easier for most of you to be nice than it is for me, if you don't have Asperger's you should supposedly have some kind of sensitivity towards peoples' feelings where before you say something you generally can figure out if it's going to hurt them or not - for me that process takes too much time and effort to do every time I open my mouth, so I have to gamble. And when I do hurt someone's feelings I feel bad about it for days and carefully examine and attempt to modify my behavior to keep it from happening again; most of you probably have thicker skin than that.

So if I can do it, you should be able to.

Professor Smarmiarty

07-31-2012, 03:24 AM

Man lots of people are dropping the "Why won't you educate me" bomb which is pretty bullshit. We're all here to have fun untzuntz times without encountering hatred and bigotry and none of us want to have to go through and lecture everybody and dig up all the shit.
Information is out there, just go look it up.

Or here is a sweet metric- if you disagree with Smarty you are a bigot in some way shape or fashion. It is up to you to figure out how but on request I will confirm whether you have correctly identified your crippling fuckness because that's how good a person I am.

Premmy

07-31-2012, 05:23 AM

The fact of the matter is, this shit hurts, oftentimes deeply. In the Atlus thread, the common argument was "present more evidence." To understand at that moment that the fact people like myself being portrayed as tricksters and deviants was not enough. To know that the shit I deal with everyday wasn't significant enough to warrant so much as a second thought, much less support, really lets a person know their place in the world.

I'm not even going to pretend to speak for others who were impacted by the lack of support, not in the boycott, but in their social issues or walked away with a different message entirely. I speak for myself and myself alone.
GodDAMN........ this post, Just.........damn.

This is pretty much it.

I've never actually been personally "offended" by racist shit. Or shit against people with mental differences or anti-atheist shit. I'm a grown-ass man and "Fuck that, and Fuck you" is pretty much my life.

The fact that the entire discussion has been buzzworded into revolving around the concept of "offense" instead of about "not being the drop of pisswater in the flood that drowns people in oppression" drives me nuts.

When it comes to emotional responses? when it comes down to how I feel? Ultimately what has always hurt me most is not what's said. It's the mental trip I go through. I Hear or see some racist shit. I hear some crazy fundamentalist religious shit. Hell, If someone tries to give me a tract or some shit and I just want to politely decline, My first knee-jerk reaction is to speak up. Defend myself. Defend the type of people I am Say anything.

And then I stop.
I think.

I Open my mouth and Every Know-it-all white boy. Every old black lady. Every Dick Nerd or DoucheBro and Any Brown or Female or Gay friends they have who just agree with all the bullshit they say. All of these mother fuckers within a five mile radius are going to descend on me and do everything in their power and use every word they Can to call me an overreacting faggot devil worshiping crazy nigger. Worst part is none of them will use those exact words. All of them will strain the limits of deniability. So I can't even say anything. I can't even do anything.
Now I'm surrounded by enemies. Now the world is very small and cold and dark.

It's not the stupid bullshit people say. I can punch back. It's how very fucking ALONE it makes me feel.

Amake

07-31-2012, 06:51 AM

We're all together in feeling alone at least.

Let me share with you a revelation I just had since we're on the topic of words that hurt.

Whenever you make a generalization you're alienating someone who doesn't fit in with your generalization; you make someone into a voiceless, invisible, less important individual. This hurts me personally, because I always have and always will be the one left out; I have in fact been excluded from every single group I've ever dreamed of being a part of. There's always an exception to the rule who makes your judgment inaccurate, and by diminishing their individuality you hurt both them and yourself.

Now, this isn't me trying to act like I'm a hated or feared minority whose troubles are comparable to Premmy's. I'm not; I'm only ignored. It's a matter of recognizing prejudice, and I think it begins with generalization.

This post was made possible by the continuing Sifright-Amake collaboration.

shiney

07-31-2012, 08:44 AM

I don't know about the rest of you guys, especially after reading this, but after taking a step back I'm pretty ashamed of the way I handled a lot of this. Not from a mod aspect as much as from a personal aspect, and letting my history with Liz (which is tainted by being personally informed of every single incident when a post was reported by or about Liz) color my view. When you are consistently exposed to the negative aspects of a person you tend to insulate yourself against their arguments or viewpoints and allow this to color your view of them as a person and a human.

Liz on this forum was a catalyst which helped bring out the best and worst in a lot of members. Liz by and of herself did not too terribly often actually say particularly objectionable things insofar as the initial arguments made were pretty reasonable. Her approach is not my approach, and I stifled sometimes at feeling I was being told to care about something the way others cared about it as to me that is an encroachment on my persona. Others reacted more strongly or harshly. This polarized factions as pro and against an argument, even if the crux of the issue was most people agree. People get defensive, and would rather continue the argument for no reason other than to defend and/or explain their position long after the fact has been established that nobody actually disagrees about the content. In almost every instance it seems to me the argument was about the delivery of this information, and oftentimes about people's refusal to take the slightest responsibility for educating themselves.

Many times Liz should have stepped back and brought up the issue again at a later time. But it is not Liz's sole responsibility or fault that these viewpoints about her were created, when many many times a member in disagreement with her could have put their differences aside and done as Krylo suggested, taken 15 or 30 minutes to look at what they actually disagreed with and reviewed or researched the subject matter.

As I said though, Liz was a catalyst. She brought these things up, she lit the fire which often burned out of control. People don't like to be challenged, and her entire existence challenges societal norms (which should not be the case as it is without question a case of exclusion because people "doooon't understaaaand" but for the sake of argument, we can all agree that right now, societally speaking, someone like Liz is not accepted into the mainstream). In questing for acceptance or at the very least tolerance and understanding Liz stepped on a lot of people and burned some bridges. This was maybe not the best approach in this forum, but I understand not only the tactic but the feeling behind the tactic. For example: my sister was struck by a car when she was 2. She is extremely developmentally disabled, and cannot even use the restroom without help, prepare food for herself or even walk. When I was a child, children with mental disabilities were all placed in "retard schools" where they would basically be in day care all day and were not given a chance at an education. This was society, this was the norm in Minnesota. My mother brought the fight into the limelight and challenged the view that this is ana cceptable practice, burned bridges, made people uncomfortable, made enemies, colored perception and people's opinions of her, ended up at the State Capitol on the news and testifying, fighting and advocating for nothing other than tolerance and acceptance.

Schools in Minnesota were shortly thereafter required to develop special education programs for children with disabilities. My mom brought the fight to the state and forced them to change and accept people that were weird and that nobody understood. Now just about every school has someone mentally handicapped, and in most cases you may find when you get to know this person, they are a wonderful person, a lighthearted spirit or just a gentle reminder that you can find friendship in unlikely places.

Liz's approach has not been altogether too different from my mother's, except that it involves sexual or gender orientation as opposed to mental handicaps. But the end goal is the same. Tolerance, acceptance, understanding, and a generational shift away from going "oogy, one of the weirdo people" to "hey, Liz." To a point where she doesn't have to fight and argue and blame and get pissed off when people say give me more and get pissed off when people say give me more and get pissed off when people say give me more.

I think it's firmly established that I don't necessarily care for Liz because her method of delivery upsets me as it causes a lot of problems on this forum, many of which have resulted in many people leaving - people both in agreement with her and disgusted with the response, and people opposed to her and disgusted with the response. I take it as a personal failure in not being able to navigate the situations from a position of leadership that strikes a balance between "This is a worthy cause and you need to respect it" and "You need to ease up on your advocacy because you are alienating potential supporters". I usually came down harder on the person I viewed as instigating the situation (Liz would start the topics or arguments and thus became the focus of my ire) than I did at the people who were stating their opinions (making the situation worse by steadfastly refusing to budge in the face of overwhelming evidence because of past interactions).

I stepped back and started reading. And came to the realization, from a personal sense, of the parallel drawn between my mom and Liz. It was humbling and as stated at the start of this SnakePost; I was ashamed of my own behavior.

I can only hope that many of you start to realize the same thing. Liz may or may not ever come back here, voluntarily or involuntarily. I recused myself from that decision by kind of selfishly thrusting the mantle of leadership on synk and the other mods. fifth, poch, Marc, Terex, Pip, TDK, Kickface may or may not ever come back here, voluntarily or involuntarily, because of these kind of interactions that have taken place over the past several years. It's not my choice and I don't have a clue what will happen, I only know that I, like Liz, just want what I always did; a place where people can gather and enjoy each other's company, in acceptance and tolerance, without needing to fight over ridiculous societal expectations.

I'm sorry everyone, and I'm sorry, Liz.

Magus

07-31-2012, 09:06 AM

Hear hear.

phil_

07-31-2012, 11:07 AM

That's horrifying, Prem.

synkr0nized

07-31-2012, 01:17 PM

Of course, I deserved it since every time I was banned I was being a twat (also I was like twelve years old on average). Much like in this case!

Quite so. Way to do exactly what we've been coming down on people for in this thread at least three times in one post. My colleagues have already handled this, but I am posting in the thread to emphasize that posting a decently-long amount of words just to call someone an asshole several times probably should've been one of the first clues that the post didn't need to be made and that we're not going to sit here and let that kind of thing be posted at NPF.

Solid Snake

07-31-2012, 02:01 PM

I read the entire thread (except for Snake's posts because jesus snake),

You're like the guy who refuses to eat the cream center of Oreo cookies, aren't you?

Sifright

07-31-2012, 02:06 PM

You're like the guy who refuses to eat the cream center of Oreo cookies, aren't you?

Nah your posts are more like that scene from futurama where fry has a pack of oreos and each cookie is wrapped in its own plastic wrap, and you have to take the wrap off and then split the cookies so you can lick the creamy goodness and then throw away the cookies.

edit: by which i mean i love your posts, because i still go through all the effort so i can lick up your creamy goodness ;)

Red Mage Black

07-31-2012, 02:45 PM

Well, glad to know I read all these pages for some reason and I resisted posting at the end. The example of how I resisted? It was like sitting in a room with a really good porno going and not the kind with laughable dialogue, the door is locked and you're sitting in a really comfy chair with loose pants on. There's a bottle of lotion and box of kleenex on the stand right next to you and the name of the game is, "Do not take off your pants, because someone might be watching." Not entirely sure if that's appropriate to mention in this thread, but now I'm glad I didn't post my thoughts.

As for you Snake? Some of your 'not too serious' Snakeposts are good for killing 10-15 minutes.

Professor Smarmiarty

07-31-2012, 02:53 PM

Fenris

07-31-2012, 03:04 PM

What the fuck is this

^^^^^^^^^^^

Osterbaum

07-31-2012, 03:06 PM

I feel the urge to masturbate.

Red Mage Black

07-31-2012, 03:07 PM

What the fuck is this

Showing how irresistible posting on NPF can be and how assholish behavior attracts more assholish behavior? I dunno. I thought assholish behavior was status quo for NPF.

Nikose Tyris

07-31-2012, 03:11 PM

...I think RMB's post was actually the least offensive thing in this thread.

A Zarkin' Frood

07-31-2012, 03:13 PM

It certainly is the most entertaining post.

shiney

07-31-2012, 03:19 PM

I've found that people want to share their opinions because it is an exercise that validates them. They don't often take into account how damaging or ignorant their opinions may be however, nor the effect those opinions have on people who identify with the subject matter.

This is why I, in the past, have railed against insulting someone as they are banned, as I feel it is needlessly derisive and the satisfaction gained by sticking it to them, to me, is outweighed by the shame in resorting to the sort of juvenile practice. Like, it is done to satisfy the mob mentality, and graciousness and civility are thrown to the wayside to pacify the gnawing hunger to be as rude to them as they were to you. They deserved it, eye for an eye, whatever you want to call it. They earned it. It's disrespectful to us moreso than them if only because it relegates us to competing on their level and refusing to take the higher road.

This is often what drives people to insert themselves into a contentious situation, the need to establish dominance maybe, or the want to say "experience my feelings on this matter which are important and meritorious." No, not usually, and especially not if your feelings are circuitously defending the very act of being a discriminatory asshole, but it's not going to stop people. They want to feel justified in the horrible things they said or feel, because the alternative is to re-evaluate themselves as a person at the behest of someone that made them angry. That's a deflating and defeating sort of feeling, and often people don't think about how it can make them grow. They just think about how it will make them who they don't believe they are, or who they think they don't want to be. They think "this mean person is forcing me to change, this mean person is an asshole because they didn't hold my hand" or whatever. The mean person might have all the tact of using a howitzer to puncture an aluminum seal, but I think it is a hell of a lot easier to not respond to it, than it is to make the situation worse by somehow insisting that because they were mean it justifies and validates ignorance.

Lord knows I've been guilty of this often enough at this forum, in the face of almost unified opposition. I wanted so badly to defend myself and to appeal to people that I completely ignored the consequences and results of my actions. We can't keep doing this. I can't.

Geminex

07-31-2012, 03:36 PM

Well, we change and grow as a community, and the mod staff obviously has a major influence exactly how this community changes and grows.

I agree that, while tone is important, it's less important than what you're arguing. I'd rather have a forum, and participate in a forum that's full of good points made agressively than I'd want to participate in a forum full of bad points made politely.

And I think that in a quest for, well, civility, it is all too easy to lose track of who should be saying what, particularly for the people whose job it is to police it all (i.e. you guys).

I agree that Liz was treated badly and that her situation is kind of a culmination of cases where an argument's tone was assessed over its content, and "You're not nice" took the place of "you're right". And I think that it's great that you're recognizing that. It'l help the community evolve in the right direction.

If I can ask, what're you gonna do? Is Liz getting unbanned?

Azisien

07-31-2012, 03:41 PM

Mountain out of a molehill seems an appropriate idiom for describing NPF of late.

Though masturbation stress test is a close second.

shiney

07-31-2012, 03:58 PM

Even if I did unban Liz, do you think she'd want to come back to a forum where the admin straight up said you're an asshole? I think that kind of impression is impossible to reverse or repair.

If she is to be unbanned I will leave it up to a consensus of my mods, and the same applies for anyone else recently banned over all of this. I'm not going to stick my unwieldy foot into the center of it again.

As far as tone, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was people over-valuing the act of expressing their opinion when the aftermath is destructive and hurtful. People should be aggressive, but not callous or thoughtless. Too much of the former as of late, on both sides of the debate. Especially from shiney, emo-in-chief.

shiney

07-31-2012, 04:01 PM

Double post because I can.

See I'm doing it again, talking about what I meant. Who cares what I'm doing next. I only care that people find NPF a desirable place to want to come back to, and not somewhere that makes them feel disrespected, hated or alone.

rpgdemon

07-31-2012, 04:18 PM

Even if I did unban Liz, do you think she'd want to come back to a forum where the admin straight up said you're an asshole? I think that kind of impression is impossible to reverse or repair.

See, this is the reason I think people actually have a point when they're arguing against someone's tone, not as a reason of saying, "You're wrong"*, but instead to say, "Yo, don't say that."

Like, let's look at what you did. You called Liz an asshole, straight up. You might have been right in issuing a ban? It's unrelated. The point of contention now isn't whether or not Liz deserved the ban, it's that the admin of NPF just called her an asshole. But if you're called unreasonable for calling her an asshole, hypothetically, someone will just go, "LOOK AT THIS JERK AND HIS FUCKING TONE ARGUMENT IDIOT."

A different example would be if someone said something like, "Yeah, you just KNOW the black people will win the Olympics. They learned how to run away from lions in the jungles." This is ostensibly a bad thing to say, but if someone goes, "HEY ASSFUCK DONKEY SLUTFACE YOU'RE A FUCKING RACIST MORON", the tone used there just makes it so that the conversation cannot continue. It doesn't matter that they're right, the issue is now, "Hey, look at X. They just called Y an assfuck donkey slutface! What a jerk!". And anyone who says, "Yo, X, that was out of line." gets grouped in as a racist as well, because everyone jumps on them about a tone argument, which ISN'T the case. People need to be able to say that X is out of line, without being yelled at about a tone argument, and right now no one is able to do that.

People keep going, "YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YELLING AT THIS PERSON FOR BEING RACIST?! YOU'RE A RACIST FUCK TOO!", and it's not going to accomplish anything. If you're sincerely THAT offended by a poster, report them, and put them on ignore, because all that you can do when you yell at them is put them on the defensive. They don't even need to defend their points anymore, they just want to defend themselves against being called a racist assfuck donkey muncher slutface, and they WON'T concede that they were incorrect, because in their mind, they were horribly wronged by the opposition.

*I am aware, a tone argument is saying, "Your point is invalid because of X thing about how you said it." I am not talking about that, because that's just stupid as an argument to make. I'm talking about what you guys keep calling tone arguments that might not be.

Red Mage Black

07-31-2012, 04:33 PM

Yeah, I kind of admit myself that I've gotten judgmental over posts before. Especially those concerning Liz. Lately, it was also those along the lines of pocheros and other people mentioned. I would see their posts and assume I didn't want to read them. It wasn't based on the topic so much as I was anticipating their delivery. I can't say they weren't right so much as their delivery wasn't exactly as toned down as I expected of debates on certain topics.

While I myself don't participate in many forum things, maybe RP once in a while, I couldn't really find myself able to ignore when news topics were posted, just to see how (insert news forum regular name here) reacted. If I could compare that, rather than using my previous suggestion, it was kind of like a car crash. Looking in to expect something horrible, but you just can't ignore looking at it. Bad example and I mean no disrespect to people who have actual seen such things.

As I said, it was more what I was expecting from said people than the actual topic itself and their argument and I apologize to those people, because I should know better than that. Of course, I still hold it to heart that I don't like their delivery approaches, regardless of right or wrong, but I won't force people to change their approaches because I don't like them. The most I can try to do, if I do respond, is try to act in the way I feel like I should act. Even if you're yelling, it doesn't mean I need to.

Bells

07-31-2012, 05:18 PM

You see, i wasn't going to post anything... but not cause i stop and thought about what i wanted to see, it was just cause the first reaction in my mind is that "I'm just gonna get yelled at and distorted again..." and... well, yeah, that's not a fun place to be. So i won't encourage that spirit in me.

So, if you would indulge me, i just want to say this and then step out cause i'm pretty sure we can have a ton of better and more productive conversations in other threads... we always had, it's the main reason why it's the only forum i'm frequent at...

First, the conversation right now... it's starting to sound like a fucking eulogy. One made for the fallen of a family reunion gone horribly bad... i just wanted to point that out cause i think we can get past that sentiment and even welcome back those who want to return. I mean, really... even family fight, loved ones fight... the smoke settles and we can all be excellent to one another again...

As for this whole thing, being someone who was banned for "Tone Argument" (it was what it said in the Banned page...) i find all of this right now very amusing. Although... i do understand and was able to see my own share of fault in all that happened and just happened to agree with a lot of what has been said in the last few pages around here...

Quite honest? The safest and least annoying road is that now whenever i see a post i feel gets under my skin i would rather just walk away from the conversation entirely and report the person (if i think it merits) instead of engaging in the discussion at all... something i don't actually recall hardly ever doing it in the last few years... but that i have at least half dozen times in the last few months... so there's that.

So, i preemptively apologize to the mods if you see my name popping up on the Report Box more often from now on, i just don't want be denied access to a lot of great stuff that happens in this forum just cause i lost my temper at some discussion gone bad...