echo echo echo

[Fifthfiend]

MLXj_wH2OoI

[RobinStarwing]

Fifth, maybe you can answer this.

Why is the next big thing always here? Why is it not there?

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Because you are always the next big thing and you're here not there.

Or are you so big you're also there? Can't really tell from here.

[RobinStarwing]

I just know that I am no nowhere. That I am actually somewhere. Up where there I do not know. But I am down with that. I do also know am I not everywhere unless you are not looking at me.

[synkr0nized]

echo echo echo

Oh, I think Fifth's deciphered viper-droid-speak.
http://home.comcast.net/~synkr0nized/random/probing.jpg

[walkertexasdruid]

Where are we talking about? Or is it there we are talking about?

[RobinStarwing]

Where are we talking about? Or is it there we are talking about?

No, it's here we are talking about. I just don't know where it is yet. I do know we are not there however.

[walkertexasdruid]

No, it's here we are talking about. I just don't know where it is yet. I do know we are not there however.

If we are already here, but do not know where here is, then how do we know that we are not there yet?

[RobinStarwing]

If we are already here, but do not know where here is, then how do we know that we are not there yet?

Because there is no better then here.

[walkertexasdruid]

If you could travel faster than the speed of light, from an outside perspective, you would get there before leaving here. ;)

[Kyanbu The Legend]

If you could travel faster than the speed of light, from an outside perspective, you would get there before leaving here. ;)

And yet this speed isn't fast enough for me to feel satisfied. We must be even faster then this.

[Magus]

If you could travel faster than the speed of light, from an outside perspective, you would get there before leaving here. ;)

Nah, when you slowed back down time would speed back up to normal (a basic error with people equating FTL with time travel). Basically the travel would appear to be instantaneous (if the distance were short enough)...or simply faster than light should be able to travel, which would make people scratch their heads, but you wouldn't have arrived at a time before you left. Uh, I think. Maybe if you went really faster than light...

[Loyal]

Wouldn't, in theory, going faster than light simply cause you to appear in multiple places at once between where you started and where you ended? If you reflect light at each point on your journey, I would imagine an "image" of you would travel from your location at that point in time to an observer's eye, but you'd be at the next place and reflecting a new image before the first image got there, and so on.

If this theory held water, I think an observer might actually see the "real you" standing at your destination while, simultaneously, your late image appeared to be traveling backwards toward where you started your journey, and another image standing at the starting point of your journey until it meets the backwards-traveling image.

Assuming of course you survived the journey, people were able to perceive the event at an infinite distance for the infinitesimally brief observation period, and we didn't have any sort of catastrophic events resulting from an object as massive as a body going at the speed of light.

[RobinStarwing]

Wouldn't, in theory, going faster than light simply cause you to appear in multiple places at once between where you started and where you ended? If you reflect light at each point on your journey, I would imagine an "image" of you would travel from your location at that point in time to an observer's eye, but you'd be at the next place and reflecting a new image before the first image got there, and so on.

If this theory held water, I think an observer might actually see the "real you" standing at your destination while, simultaneously, your late image appeared to be traveling backwards toward where you started your journey, and another image standing at the starting point of your journey until it meets the backwards-traveling image.

Assuming of course you survived the journey, people were able to perceive the event at an infinite distance for the infinitesimally brief observation period, and we didn't have any sort of catastrophic events resulting from an object as massive as a body going at the speed of light.

You are killing the dream!

[walkertexasdruid]

I think Loyal is right, though I cannot be sure. I was a poli sci/history major.

[PyrosNine]

Pyros will explain that in the event of someone traveling faster than the speed of light, the concept of 'here" would no longer apply, as the effect of moving at the speed of light means that a person would tear through the atoms within any matter between 'here' and 'there' causing a massive chain reaction that would completely obliterate 'here', and probably 'there' as well.

So as said by famed physicist lead singer of the goo goo dolls, "somehow Here is gone."

[Bells]

Pyros will explain that in the event of someone traveling faster than the speed of light, the concept of 'here" would no longer apply, as the effect of moving at the speed of light means that a person would tear through the atoms within any matter between 'here' and 'there' causing a massive chain reaction that would completely obliterate 'here', and probably 'there' as well.

So as said by famed physicist lead singer of the goo goo dolls, "somehow Here is gone."

...why are you speaking of yourself in the third person?

...makes it look like you are talking to yourself from a perspective of you here seeing you there. That makes no fucking sense... is your internet broadband light-speed based? Can you tell me the Webcomics updates of sunday will be funny? I bet they will be.

[PyrosNine]

Oh bells, you show how relatively new you are in that you are unused to seeing Pyros refer to Pyros with Pyros's own name, instead of using a self-identifying pronoun!

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I've seen better quirks.

[RobinStarwing]

I've seen better quirks.

And I have seen better quarks.

[Magus]

Remus wants you to sign Remus up for the light-speed travel. Remus thinks destroying the fabric of the universe would finally put Remus' name in the history books (if they still existed for Remus' name to be put there, of course).

[Sithdarth]

If you could travel faster than the speed of light, from an outside perspective, you would get there before leaving here.

That depends. If you are following closed time like curves then maybe. Or you could just beat a light pulse to its destination.

Nah, when you slowed back down time would speed back up to normal (a basic error with people equating FTL with time travel). Basically the travel would appear to be instantaneous (if the distance were short enough)...or simply faster than light should be able to travel, which would make people scratch their heads, but you wouldn't have arrived at a time before you left. Uh, I think. Maybe if you went really faster than light...

Not even close really.

I think Loyal is right, though I cannot be sure. I was a poli sci/history major.

He's kinda right adjacent (though still not right) and the reasoning is way off.

Pyros will explain that in the event of someone traveling faster than the speed of light, the concept of 'here" would no longer apply, as the effect of moving at the speed of light means that a person would tear through the atoms within any matter between 'here' and 'there' causing a massive chain reaction that would completely obliterate 'here', and probably 'there' as well.

So as said by famed physicist lead singer of the goo goo dolls, "somehow Here is gone."

Not really.

[walkertexasdruid]

All right SithDarth, please explain it to us then.

[akaSM]

Ooo, is it Science Time with uncle Sith? :3:

[Sithdarth]

Well for starters there is no possibility of traveling at the speed of light in flat spacetime. It's just not going to happen. The math and predictions of special relativity break down at exactly the speed of light. Quantities diverge leading to the prediction of zeros and infinities for things that should be observable which is impossible.

Closed time like curves are possible but only in curved spacetime. Properly curved spacetime allows for what is basically FTL travel. Basically you don't exceed the local speed of light in the bit of spacetime you are traveling through but you do exceed the speed of light in flatter spacetime some distance away. Tipler cylinders and Kerr blackholes are examples of solutions in general relativity with closed time like curves though people still dispute either their physical existence or that they are safely traversable.

Basically FTL travel is only possible in the context of general relativity and thus talking about it in terms of special relativistic effects like time dilation and length contraction is inappropriate. Besides that regardless of the whole time speeding back up thing when you slow down that doesn't necessarily mean that any difference in time accumulated would go away. If you could, and you really can't, travel faster than light in flat spacetime you really could travel back in time from the perspective of an outside observer. Unfortunately things aren't that simple.

So the take home is that no one is ever going to move through their local spacetime faster than light moves through their local spacetime. So there is no point in talking about what would or wouldn't happen. I mean the math of special relativity can deal with things that have always (and will always) moved faster than light but they basically look like a mirror version of sublight things and we can't even really prove their existence.

[RobinStarwing]

What about the hypothetical/theoritical Tachyon?

EDIT: Yes, well aware that nothing like this as been observed in nature but it bears asking.

[Sithdarth]

That would be this sentence:

I mean the math of special relativity can deal with things that have always (and will always) moved faster than light but they basically look like a mirror version of sublight things and we can't even really prove their existence.

Though to be slightly more clear what I mean by mirror version is that they travel backwards in time and might have negative mass depending on who you ask.

[RobinStarwing]

Though to be slightly more clear what I mean by mirror version is that they travel backwards in time and might have negative mass depending on who you ask.

Or because we have observed it, might then also be going forward in time + having positive mass/energy at the same moment it's traveling backwards in time while possessing negative mass/energy?

[Sithdarth]

Or because we have observed it, might then also be going forward in time + having positive mass/energy at the same moment it's traveling backwards in time while possessing negative mass/energy?

No superluminal particle has ever been observed. If anyone tells you anything to the contrary its probably faulty equipment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_anomaly) In fact I think all the physically possible Tachyonic theories require Tachyons to be impossible to observe in order to protect causality. Also, sometimes anything with negative or imaginary mass is called a Tachyon even if the actual propagation speed of the thing is less than the speed of light.

[RobinStarwing]

No superluminal particle has ever been observed. If anyone tells you anything to the contrary its probably faulty equipment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_anomaly) In fact I think all the physically possible Tachyonic theories require Tachyons to be impossible to observe in order to protect causality. Also, sometimes anything with negative or imaginary mass is called a Tachyon even if the actual propagation speed of the thing is less than the speed of light.

I was stating what would happen if we did try to observe it and succeeded. We wouldn't see it going backwards in time + having negative mass/energy. We would see it going forward in time + having positive mass/energy hence still preserving causality.

EDIT: To further add in, it maybe possible that the Tachyon transforms/undergoes a transition into all the other particles we observe. Hence, the very act of observing a Tachyon transforms it into other particles? This could mean the Tacyhon is the force carrier for Probability Wave Functions?

This is the ramblings of an idiot so don't take it too seriously. Just stating thoughts.

[Sithdarth]

I was stating what would happen if we did try to observe it and succeeded. We wouldn't see it going backwards in time + having negative mass/energy. We would see it going forward in time + having positive mass/energy hence still preserving causality.

If it has positive mass and is moving into the future it is not a Tachyon and therefore you have not observed a Tachyon. Besides that fact every theory with physically possible Tachyons require that they don't interact with anything in basically anyway. Otherwise bad things happen to the Tachyon itself which tend to remove it from existence.

EDIT: To further add in, it maybe possible that the Tachyon transforms/undergoes a transition into all the other particles we observe. Hence, the very act of observing a Tachyon transforms it into other particles? This could mean the Tacyhon is the force carrier for Probability Wave Functions?


No.

This is the ramblings of an idiot so don't take it too seriously. Just stating thoughts.

Well I suggest you actually go do something useful with your time instead. Without the requisite education you have about as much chance at getting even remotely close to right as you have of lifting the entire planet. You aren't going to understand why you're wrong either and that is just going to frustrate both of us.

[Magus]

Sithdarth: demonstrating why American politicians never want to fund any of this stuff--nobody can explain it properly to the non-initiated! Also, you scientists are interloping in the domain of God!~ and etc.

For 2016 we need a Science party, with a candidate steeped in particle physics and quantum mechanics, and also some candidates for Senate and the House who can then vote for funding. My only demand is that part of the funding be spent on educating the masses on the subject through the use of edutainment comic books.

[Sithdarth]

Sithdarth: demonstrating why American politicians never want to fund any of this stuff--nobody can explain it properly to the non-initiated! Also, you scientists are interloping in the domain of God!~ and etc.

For 2016 we need a Science party, with a candidate steeped in particle physics and quantum mechanics, and also some candidates for Senate and the House who can then vote for funding. My only demand is that part of the funding be spent on educating the masses on the subject through the use of edutainment comic books.

Its a common misconception that one has to fully understand a scientific discipline in order to want to fund it. That is not really true. No scientist should try to make a politician understand the science. Instead they have to make them understand the importance of science and get them excited to be a part of funding it. Generally this just means applications which can be difficult to find for some research.

Also, there are actually PhD in Congress at least one of which I think is a physicist. So there is a presence and there are several other representatives in congress that strongly support science. What we need for better science funding is public outreach, I've heard rumblings about using TV and movie ads to get the public to support funding science, (constituents have more control than they think about what gets funded and if enough normal people demand science funding it will happen) and more meetings between charismatic scientists and congressional leaders (a well funded special interest group dedicated to science wouldn't hurt). Wouldn't hurt if we could put the tax level on the rich back to the 90% level it used to be at and maybe cut back on the military budget a little. You know just to free up some cash to actually fund things.

[RobinStarwing]

Its a common misconception that one has to fully understand a scientific discipline in order to want to fund it. That is not really true. No scientist should try to make a politician understand the science. Instead they have to make them understand the importance of science and get them excited to be a part of funding it. Generally this just means applications which can be difficult to find for some research.

Also, there are actually PhD in Congress at least one of which I think is a physicist. So there is a presence and there are several other representatives in congress that strongly support science. What we need for better science funding is public outreach, I've heard rumblings about using TV and movie ads to get the public to support funding science, (constituents have more control than they think about what gets funded and if enough normal people demand science funding it will happen) and more meetings between charismatic scientists and congressional leaders (a well funded special interest group dedicated to science wouldn't hurt). Wouldn't hurt if we could put the tax level on the rich back to the 90% level it used to be at and maybe cut back on the military budget a little. You know just to free up some cash to actually fund things.

Isn't a lot of what we have today a result of the budgets for the Military and Space programs? *Cites the Internet, Microwave ovens, GPS, cell phones*

[Sithdarth]

Isn't a lot of what we have today a result of the budgets for the Military and Space programs? *Cites the Internet, Microwave ovens, GPS, cell phones*

For starters the space program sort of kind of had a military base at the start but shouldn't really be lumped into military spending. Especially since it is so horribly underfunded right now. Beyond that the vast and I mean vast majority of military spending is for buying things, paying people, and just running the military not figuring stuff out (Research is slightly over 10% of the total budget making it a very distant fourth to buying stuff). Military overhead is so much more of an expense than military research and you can still do military research without spending hundreds of millions of dollars on what like 4 planes, or paying thousands of soldiers to basically do nothing. In fact you could do it much better than it is currently being done by putting more funding into the research. In fact one might argue that if the military had to do more with less hardware it might actually force them to be more innovative and do more research. For example if they couldn't simply spend tens of millions of dollars on a single plane maybe they'd find a better way to achieve the same goal and who knows what technology that might lead to.

Simply put cutting military spending doesn't mean cutting military research. The best thing to do would to cut the size of the military itself. It doesn't need to be nearly as big as it is. Maybe then we could also fund NASA like it deserves.

[walkertexasdruid]

Thank you SithDarth, Robinstarwing, and Magus. I think understand this subject a little better.

[RobinStarwing]

Thank you SithDarth, Robinstarwing, and Magus. I think understand this subject a little better.

How the hell did I help? I was the idiot. O_O

[A Zarkin' Frood]

What do you mean "was"?

Anyway, there's this ancient German saying that goes something like this "He who does not ask questions shall remain an idiot for all eternity forever eternally"

[walkertexasdruid]

I find socratic dialogues enlightening.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I went faster than light once. Its like normal travel but if you need to go to the toilet you shit yourself.

[Odjn]

That would explain your constant odor.

[walkertexasdruid]

So back to the original question: are we there or are we here?

[Sithdarth]

Better question:

What does it even mean to be somewhere in the first place? Is it even possible to be in a place at all? While we're at it what is a place to begin with? Fun with solipsism. Woo!

[Krylo]

I don't know, man.

I'm just a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi.

[walkertexasdruid]

:ohdear: Good question. It is most likely that I am here and you are there, but from your perspective you are here and I am there. Also there is the question of what here really is. Am I really living in a trailer in South Carolina, struggling to survive doing a job that I can tolerate but do not love? Or is here an illusion created by my own fevered mind, or the twisted joke of some one else? Could we be possibly in the Matrix, where we can say, "batteries is people, batteries is people"? We may never know.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

We are totally in the matrix
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/11/physicists-may-have-evide_n_1957777.html

[walkertexasdruid]

So should we take the Red Pill or the Blue Pill?

[Amake]

No one can be told what the Matrix is without permanently altering their perception of reality. Does anyone actually believe it's possible to unchange the world, to effectively erase all inconvenient memories with the blue pill, rather than believe we must go on living with the suspicion that there is a world outside the world. To then choose to stay inside, to turn down our only chance to ever know the truth, I think would be impossible for any person capable of reason. I don't think anyone would seriously consider anything but the red pill.

Also, that article kinda wrinkled my brain. If we can create a remotely passable universe simulation in this universe with all its limitations. . .I have to wonder where we are.

[RobinStarwing]

So Star Oceans 3 was onto something!

[akaSM]

I'll eat both pills, they're so colorful and shiny :3

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'll eat both pills, they're so colorful and shiny :3

And seeing what happens next after doing that would be interesting.:3:

[walkertexasdruid]

Would you get pulled into the "real world" but believe you are in the "other real world", or would your brain simply die from the conficting commands that the simultanious pills are giving it?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Would you get pulled into the "real world" but believe you are in the "other real world", or would your brain simply die from the conficting commands that the simultanious pills are giving it?

Only Science has the answer.:3:

[Magus]

First rule of the Matrix: Don't talk about the Matrix.
Second rule of the Matrix: Don't talk about how bad the sequels to the Matrix were.

[Amake]

I figured the blue pill is a powerful roofie. So you'd go to sleep, and then wake up when they jerk you out of the Matrix. Possibly with no memory of the last several days.

[walkertexasdruid]

What happens in the Matrix, stays in the Matrix.