So about why aliens haven't contacted us

[Aerozord]

Now statistically there kind of has to be other life in the universe. Just too many possible chances for it to happen. People often talk about why then we have never made contact. One popular idea is we aren't advanced enough to bother with. But I think I know of a simpler reason.

They have absolutely no clue we exist.

Lets assume we are right and you just cant go faster than the speed of light. Heck even getting anywhere close is next to impossible. This makes interstellar travel very impractical. While a species would likely colonize worlds within its own star cluster there is little reason to go beyond it. While its likely for there to be sapient life in the galaxy, the chances of it being within a hundred light years of us is small. Then even if they do catch some stray radio waves and realize our civilization exists they aren't going to spend a few centuries to investigate a race that might be hostile assuming it still exists at all.

Its kind of like how we had so many hidden pockets of humanity up until very recently that were unknown to the rest of the world. there can be entire societies that exist, but randomly stumbling across them would be pure chance and in this case the chance is astronomically (heh, pun) low

[Seil]

Our planet has too much water and cold germs.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

I forget the technical term for it, but our lil solar system is tucked away in a veritable bubble o' significantly emptier space. If anything i'd go so far as to say we could very well be too isolated to be worth the time and effort to contact.

[Osterbaum]

Well from what I understand we aren't actually particularly isolated within our own galaxy. We are part of a type of star cluster where there are less stars than the other common type of star cluster. So it's all relative I suppose. Then again I think some theorize that the other type of star cluster would have less habitable planets because of it's relatively young age.

[Aerozord]

I think he might have been referring to the fact we aren't part of one of the main spirals but instead a small whisp coming off one. Like not only are there few in our cluster, but there aren't alot of clusters period around us.

[Osterbaum]

I am under the impression that we are pretty average as far as the galaxy is concerned.

But yeah if there is intelligent life right now in our galaxy, the most likely case is just that they haven't even found us.

[Seil]

Hang on, how are we defining 'intelligent life?' I'd go so far as to call most... some humans 'intelligent life,' but I'd even extend that so far as dogs, dolphins, primates - even crows are capable of learning and using tools.

It's definately possible that life in some form exists out there, probably that there's intelligent life, but a race that's perfected inter-galactic travel and is rocketing around and checking stuff out? I don't know.

Also, consider the idea that we are still developing - we have no contact with anything outside our own world. In galactic terms, we're that one tribe that hasn't had any outside contact. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeItzlkOuoo) I feel safe enough in saying that if actual aliens do come across us, that are smart enough to create spaceships and junk, they're also smart enough to leave a developing planet like us alone. We're still dealing with racism, how do you think we're going to deal with aliens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PDlMggROA)?

[Amake]

Closer to the center of the galaxy you'd have a shitload more stars close by, so you might think we're unlucky in that. But it'd probably take a seriously hardy form of life to survive with that kind of background radiation, so my guess is they don't develop as often. We've basically coasted on Easy mode and now we're running into the limited access to cooler stuff that makes you regret not picking a harder difficulty. But at least the game doesn't just end like that sumbitch Twisted Metal World Tour. . .

[Osterbaum]

I just had an exam on this stuff. Which I probably failed...

Anyway, some paper recently theorized life might be more likely to be found near the center where there are more stars. The paper was criticized, among other things, for not taking into account the possibility of star systems affecting each other at such close ranges so as to make the survival of life there less likely.

[Aerozord]

well a flaw most scientists make is we are basing assumptions on life similar to ours. No telling what crazy evolutionary tracks things could take.

Of course we need a planet in the "habitable zone" with water, carbon, oxygen and a large stabilizing moon. We evolved to survive in an environment like that. While it might be harder to survive at the galactic core the number of stars gives life alot more chances. Averages even out if something is only a tenth as likely and you are trying it ten times more often.

Sure it probably doesn't work quite like that but as long as the planet can remain relatively consistent for a few million years life has a chance to adapt to the changes.

[Seil]

I'll work on finding the right quote, but the beginning of the movie Sphere is great for this discussion. Samuel L. Jackson exclaims that "the alien could inhale oxygen and exhale cyanide gas, it's perfectly plausible."

Does it have to have a set of lungs at all, let alone a set of lungs that breathe the same way ours do? It could breath a different gas than us, or not breathe at all. The gravity where their life evolved could be different, the natural resources might be unlike any we've ever found.

[Osterbaum]

Well the question is, exactly what kind of conditions are necessary for life to evolve.

[Seil]

This (http://www.molvray.com/sf/exobio/astron.htm) is pretty interesting.

[Aerozord]

This (http://www.molvray.com/sf/exobio/astron.htm) is pretty interesting.

except that "must have water" part is complete bull. While water is ideal (in the same way carbon is) there are plenty of alternatives. Ammonia springs to mind

[Kyanbu The Legend]

except that "must have water" part is complete bull. While water is ideal (in the same way carbon is) there are plenty of alternatives. Ammonia springs to mind

Really? Ammonia can work as a water-sub for forming life?

[Aerozord]

Really? Ammonia can work as a water-sub for forming life?

the point of water is to act as a solvent, and its ideal because it breaks down just about anything. In theory any liquid solvent can work, just more limiting. Just like how carbon is great because of the number of molecular bonds it can produce but are others that can work like arsenic or nitrogen.

here is some more info on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-water_solvents)

[RobinStarwing]

Have we considered that the aliens have come by but keep crashing? Like our planet Earth is the Bermuda Triangle of the Galaxy.

Other similar possibility is they did come by and we are the descendants.

[Aerozord]

Have we considered that the aliens have come by but keep crashing? Like our planet Earth is the Bermuda Triangle of the Galaxy.

nope, cause, I mean, why? Even if it was true its not like it would be hard to avoid the planet. Its a planet, on even a stellar scale you need to intentionally try to go near it.

Other similar possibility is they did come by and we are the descendants.

fossil records kind of contradict this

[RobinStarwing]

nope, cause, I mean, why? Even if it was true its not like it would be hard to avoid the planet. Its a planet, on even a stellar scale you need to intentionally try to go near it.

Ahem...Roswell anyone?



fossil records kind of contradict this


The other option is the aliens looked at us and decided to steer clear of us.

[Aerozord]

see my point though is that, statistically speaking its very unlikely an alien race ever would come across us in the first place.

[Kim]

This question is easy.

Aliens haven't contacted us because we assholes.

Nobody wants to hang out with assholes.

BOOM

NEXT QUESTION

[Krylo]

Oh, is that why I don't have any friends?

[Aerozord]

Nobody wants to hang out with assholes.


haven't been on the internet for very long I see

[Kim]

Oh, is that why I don't have any friends?

no you don't have any friends cuz everybody hides behind the lockers going "doki doki i wonder if sempai will notice me"

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Water is actually harmful to early life forming models- I know this cause I have run them. The problem comes in that when you are forming your first peptide bonds they hydrolise better than they form peptide bonds. So if you have water around when you are trying to make say your first RNA it going to split that shit up like a mofo.
Once you have about 4-5 peptide bonds in your molecule already then water isn't as much of a problem.
This adds to the fact that water tends to dilute your ingredients when what you need to form complex, information carrying molecules is generally large concentrations.
There are various ways to get around this- the one I'm currentely favouring is that instead of water the first peptide molecules formed in interstellar ice rather than water and then once they were say a few peptides long they hit earth and gained wate rand then kicked off.
Once you have like your first protocells and shit though, as far as we know water is pretty essential- pretty much all the alternative liquid speculations all give way to water eventually that I'm aware off- you can use say formaldehyde or ammonia or fucking clay minerals to start forming the first shit in a dry environment where water won't fuck up yo biscuits but eventually they gotta give away to daddy H2O once you have proper cellular life as far as I'm aware.

Also formaldehyde is the best evolutionary liquid if you going to not use water. Ammonia people are smoking their ass.

Also the whole alternative forms of life that say breathe something other than O or are made of Si actually seems ridiculously unlikely for me. Why? Because we know why life is made from C rather than anything else, we know why we breathe O rather than anything else. Its because these are chemically the most versatile and energetically favourable forms to build complex, information carrying life type molecules. C makes a wide wide variety of different bond types and structures with different geometries and energies which can be tailored to the correct needs and these bonds tend to be reversible allowing energy storing/release and information type reactions rather than say Si which only makes a few types of bond, which have only a very types of angle and tend to be less reversible- like Si-O is very strong bond. Breathing O makes sense mostly because the O respiration cycle releases far more energy than say a Cl respiration cycle and in environments likely to allow the formation of complex molecules (ie sheltered and not overly hot as heat energy destroys molecules) will have O as a gas whereas other things are not as likely to be a gas.
Other types of biochemistry could easily be possible bu tthere are very good reasons why we have the chemistry we do.
This also applies to water- water provides energy in the metabolic processes in a way that other liquids can't really match as far as we know.

As for why we havne't found life contacting us its pretty straightforward- first they could be contacting us in any possible way most of which we haven't even thought about. So we have to assume they are sending EM signals out like we do. Then there is a gigantic spectrum of wavelengths and directions it could be coming from of which we only search a tiny fraction. And then we have only been actively searching for a few decades which in interstellar time is nothing.


E: Also I reckon Ost failed his exam because he wrote some Adornoesqe bullshit about how life was predetermined from the conditions at hand thus invoking the post-Kant seperation of reason and action, depowering the chemical drive towards life as a mere quirk of semantics and simply declaring that it must. I would give him a D- and a frowny face. With stormclouds.

[Geminex]

This question is easy.

Aliens haven't contacted us because we assholes.

Nobody wants to hang out with assholes.


Oh, is that why Krylo doesn't have any f-
wait fuck

[Osterbaum]

Lots of microbes are able to actually use other electron acceptors besides oxygen in their cellular respiration. In addition some organisms are able to survive mostly or only by their anaerobic respiration processes. So I'm not sure oxygen would be a requirement at least for microbial life.

I mean the whole reason we have oxygen in the amounts we do is because of oxygenic photoautotrophic organisms that make that shit from water.

Also I reckon Ost failed his exam because he wrote some Adornoesqe bullshit about how life was predetermined from the conditions at hand thus invoking the post-Kant seperation of reason and action, depowering the chemical drive towards life as a mere quirk of semantics and simply declaring that it must. I would give him a D- and a frowny face. With stormclouds.
I don't yet know if I failed, I might have passed! Besides if I did fail it's because I don't know enough about galaxies and shit. Now biology, that's my expertise!

[RobinStarwing]

All this talk is making me think about the Fog Worms from Episode 2.2 of Primeval.

[Seil]

Smarty's comment is making me think about the opening scene of Prometheus, what with that Human Alien murdering himself to start off humans. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLuvWdZ3qo0)
Seriously, though, if there was an advanced alien race, capable of building a spaceship that travels the incredibly long journey to us... why would they? Let's break it down:

Alien Race
- Capable of interstellar travel
- Has highly advanced technology, including machines to recycle air, food and water supply for long journeys, OR
- Are capable of flying very long distances in very short amounts of time

Now, either of those ideas mean that they can travel through space. This suggests that they're pretty self-sufficient. They'd also have to be fantastically smart. Why would they want anything from us? Imagine what we, and our history must look like to a bunch of super-smart space faring aliens. We're violent apes. We're dangerous.

Of course, you could cite Men In Black, V, or District 9 to see interpretations of several scenarios.

BNLfNe12BKE

[Osterbaum]

I don't know, I've always felt that a certain amount of naivety is involved in imagining aliens as somehow inherently better than we are. I don't buy that.

e: also that documentary is pretty interesting, I've already seen it like twice

[Aerozord]

I don't know, I've always felt that a certain amount of naivety is involved in imagining aliens as somehow inherently better than we are. I don't buy that.

e: also that documentary is pretty interesting, I've already seen it like twice

its an odd bias really. I mean it is a possible that WE are the most advanced beings in the galaxy. Or most advanced in some specific way. Like we are very militaristic. If we were any more hostile we'd have killed ourselves by now so I doubt there is a race more concerned with murdering other living things without blowing themselves up (we barely avoided it).

[Shyria Dracnoir]

The twist is that humanity is the very first intelligent species to evolve in the universe and it's our destiny to become the cosmic uber-precursors that set all other life in the universe moving before ascending to a higher plane of existence and abandoning our creations save for the occasional interference from John de Lancie.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Lots of microbes are able to actually use other electron acceptors besides oxygen in their cellular respiration. In addition some organisms are able to survive mostly or only by their anaerobic respiration processes. So I'm not sure oxygen would be a requirement at least for microbial life.
And they are all notably less efficient than aerobic respiration and seem patently unable to fuel anything beyond the microbial. Because they are terrible.


I mean the whole reason we have oxygen in the amounts we do is because of oxygenic photoautotrophic organisms that make that shit from water.
We have piss all carbon and yet our life is made from that because its the most efficient. And you don't need very much oxygen at all to fuel aerobic respiration- in the beginning at least. Abundance arguments are complete nonsense because we aren't made of silicon/breathe methan.e


I don't yet know if I failed, I might have passed! Besides if I did fail it's because I don't know enough about galaxies and shit. Now biology, that's my expertise!

Biology isn't an expertise. Its a card catalog.

[Aerozord]

You are right life will evolve according to whats the best option available. However I am saying that can change. Plants are CO2 based after all and while oxygen is nice its not always available. Same thing with water. Some celestial bodies just dont have any, at all. Evolving microbes are going to adapt to whatever they can get their hands on. Its why we have those non-photosynthesis based plants on earth.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Plants still breathe oxygen yo. Photosynthesis in plants is the equivalent of our eating shit.

[RobinStarwing]

The twist is that humanity is the very first intelligent species to evolve in the universe and it's our destiny to become the cosmic uber-precursors that set all other life in the universe moving before ascending to a higher plane of existence and abandoning our creations save for the occasional interference from John de Lancie.

Read the Uplift Trilogies much?

[Aerozord]

Plants still breathe oxygen yo. Photosynthesis in plants is the equivalent of our eating shit.

I am no chemistry expert, but I do know the basics, and I know oxygen isn't the only way to produce chemical energy. Just because its more efficient doesn't mean its the only way. I have a hard time believing our chemical basis for life is the only one in the galaxy

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well you could do it in heaps and heaps of other ways in theory but like its hard to see what would drive the production of these ways. Earth's early lifeforms evolved to use oxygen despite what we think was a highly reducing environment with little oxygen around. It's highly curious why they wouldn't have evolved to use say methane or nitrogen which can act in similar energy channels to oxygen when these were heaps more abundant than oxygen.
Like I'm totally not ruling it out, you can draw perfectely plausiable energy systems not using oxygen, I just think it seems far less likely than using oxygen. Many leading scientists would agree with you, however, but I've met some of them and they are massive nerds and thus I don't agree with them.

[Magus]

Why would aliens contact us? The last thing major news they got from us, before the advent of cable in the majority of homes, thus reducing the amount of TV beamed into space, was probably Miami Vice. Presumably, they found Mann's use of popular music layed over violent scenes of dramatic weight to be pretentious. Or they disliked Phil Collin's tenure as Genesis' lead.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Surely they would want to study us to figure out how exactly Genesis could ever be popular. This is a riddle to task the ages.

[Magus]

Surely they would want to study us to figure out how exactly Genesis could ever be popular. This is a riddle to task the ages.

Something something carpet crawlers.

[Aerozord]

Surely they would want to study us to figure out how exactly Genesis could ever be popular. This is a riddle to task the ages.

because genesis does, what ninten-dont
:fifthwithit:

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Suck?

[Osterbaum]

It's highly curious why they wouldn't have evolved to use say methane or nitrogen which can act in similar energy channels to oxygen when these were heaps more abundant than oxygen.
I think you're underestimating the amount and importance of (micro)organisms that do in fact use different forms of anaerobic respiration. The sulfate and sufur reducing bacteria and the nitrogen reducing bacteria play major roles in the sulfur and nitrogen cycles, respectively. Granted, that several microorganisms capable of anaeronic respiration are also capable of aerobic respiration, but certainly not all of them.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They are all microorganisms though which was I was getting at and have far less energetic systems than aerobic cells and generally live in places completely starved of oxygen and die when exposed to oxygen. They are pretty ridiculous templates for larger life forms.

[Osterbaum]

Well yeah I'm not imagining intelligent life trotting about breathing nitrogen. Just the prospect of any kind of life is interesting. And microorganisms can set the stage for later development of more complicated life.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If I can see it with my eyes it don't exist.

[Osterbaum]

Are you blind!?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Yes

[Aerozord]

They are all microorganisms though which was I was getting at and have far less energetic systems than aerobic cells and generally live in places completely starved of oxygen and die when exposed to oxygen. They are pretty ridiculous templates for larger life forms.

our individual cells also die when exposed to oxygen. We are kept alive by mucus and a layer of dead skin. Oxygen is a very reactive element after all.

I mention this to point out how looking at issues from other perspectives oxygen has its own problems which an anaerobic form of life might look and go "I doubt you'd have life based on breathing oxygen, exposure to the element would break down organic bonds". Plus its only so good because we are carbon based and oxygen reacts well with hydrocarbons. If life was sodium based (I know this isn't possible but its a simple example) chlorine would be far better than oxygen.

Also we are assuming the creatures breath at all. We do it because its an easy way to get access to oxygen which we use to metabolize our food. Heck fish dont technically breath as much as filter out oxygen from the water. I'm sure there are chemicals in liquid of solid states at life supporting temperatures that could be used to facilitate a metabolism.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well obviously oxygen only makes sense if you are a carbon based form of life. If you aren't carbon based you would breathe/metabolise other things. I just don't even know whether they could exist.

[Seil]

So this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation) is pretty interesting.

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