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View Full Version : A Snakewall on Feelings and Values and Friendship that you probably shouldn't read


Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 04:35 AM
...So, I have this friend.

...Actually, I had eight friends.

It's complicated.

So back in 2008 I was struggling to find happiness in my life while studying for the LSATs and working on law school applications. I was stuck in my parent's home because I was virtually unemployable until I procured my advanced degree. I thought law school was the appropriate direction to take, but damn, pursuing it was tough. The first time I took the LSAT I had to cancel my score before it was released, as an illness prevented me from performing at my best. I wasted months of my life on my own, without much support or affirmation from a community of friends, and with barely any positive acknowledgment from my parents, who were always armed with cynical quips targeting my personality, hobbies, and generally just resenting my lack of earthly, materialistic success.

And then they showed up. Those eight acquaintances.

I don't want to wax lyrical and become excessively melodramatic about 'friends' like these -- they aren't really tangible, and it's a gross exaggeration at best and an outright sign of mental instability at worst to brazenly compare them to friends who actually live and breathe -- but, as something of an amateur storyteller and a classic introvert, it's just the aspiring author's tendency to find people in characters, to blur fiction and reality.

And at the height of my depression then -- when I was in that period of utter self-loathing and felt apathy regarding everything around me that we all slip into sometimes -- I was introduced to these folks, and I enjoyed spending hundreds of hours with them. They were bright and cheery and eminently entertaining, and they took my mind off the pain of uncertainty as to my future. I lived vicariously through their adventures as they solved a ludicrous mystery and bonded over mundane academic feats. It was escapism, yes -- but I was at a point in my life where I'm willing to concede I needed that escapism, not as a permanent solution but at least as a temporary fix, something to get me from point A to point B.

Better yet, those eight friends weren't just fun to waste time with. They're actually among a select few personalities who can claim to have had a profound impact on my political views. While folks like Kim and Fifthfiend and Krylo and other various NPFers (and other various liberals I've interacted with in daily life) are largely responsible for my gradual ascent into enlightened progressivism, these eight friends also played a prominent role in shaping who I am today. I saw them struggle with issues relating to gender roles and sexuality, and through their struggles my old conservative / libertarian self was forced to confront my own demons. Those friends made me acutely aware of my white male heterosexual privilege, and as I realized that the gay and transgendered friends in that group deserved happiness as much as I did, I had to swallow my pride and concede that I was an asshole and that I desperately needed to change.

So I did change. And while I'm far from perfect now, just looking back at who I was in 2007 and comparing that Snake to who I am now, I definitely feel it's been a positive difference.

Sometime in 2009, I felt it was time to move on from that group of old friends. They had encouraged me through one of the lowest points in my life, but I had reached the end of the road with them; there wasn't much left for us to accomplish. I did well on my second run through the LSATs and I was accepted into the school of my choice. With my confidence back, I began the gradual trek back to more fulfilling social outlets.

Most importantly, though, I was able to attend a law school that conveniently was located in the same area as my undergrad -- meaning, I could reconnect with friends and coworkers I knew from way back when. I had a real life again. There were moments of nervousness and stupidity and unnecessary melodrama, yes -- life wasn't any less stressful and NPF was often my conduit to express pitiable emotions around finals -- but I wasn't alone.

...But now, in 2012, I'm beginning to experience feelings akin to a severe case of deja vu. Like in 2008, I took a crucial test that was vital to my future career interests. And like in 2008, the first time I took it, I fucked up. Like in 2008, I'm unemployed, can't see much hope for future employment (that'd pay sufficiently enough to tackle my debt obligations, at least) and I'm living with my parents. Like in 2008, my parents are every bit as irritated with my presence, and their cynicism and lack of faith in me is crushing. It's my faith in myself that's taken the biggest hit, though.

Like then, I've retreated socially -- hell, the more astute among you will (accurately) note I've even been less active at Sexay and NPF lately, because I've even been retreating here, to some extent.

It's a habit when I'm depressed and I feel like I've failed. When I'm low on self-confidence, I don't want to be around other people. Their successes and moments of happiness feel like further affirmation of my sub-ordinance and my insignificance; by contrast, their own struggles -- which are often more serious than mine by virtue of their lack of status as beneficiaries of institutional privilege -- or their struggles with actual physical illness or financial insolvency -- just make me despise myself all the more for being so weak. Why can't I handle my my comparatively trite burdens?
And, when some of you are dealing with grueling work schedules and diseases and surgeries and systemic discrimination and insufficient legal rights, how annoying is it to witness me making a big deal out of merely feeling sad without similar contextual justification?

But, just like then -- as if by divine mandate -- my eight friends are back. And, according to some, they're better than ever. Even seeing them in images brings back all the warm, fuzzy fond memories. I want to warmly embrace them and jump right back in, dive back to where I feel I belong again, and escape the confines of my dreary existence.

...But then I realize...

...I'm not the only one who's changed.

In the past four years, they've changed too. And not for the better.

They've befriended a psychopathic villain who indulges in thoughts of rape and murder.
They've turned against their homosexual and transgendered friends and become brazenly homophobic and transphobic.
They've forced the women in their group to degrade themselves in demeaning outfits to cater to the basest of misogynists.
They've betrayed the very values they once appeared to stand against and sold themselves out as they've become more popular with the masses.

They were never perfect themselves, as it turns out, though it's been easier to account for their questionable moral judgment in retrospect. Maybe they haven't changed at all, and the only person who's changed is me. But, like a drug addict slipping deeper and deeper into bad habits, they seem to have fallen apart in recent years.

...Despite all of this, though, it is my own abject pathetic state, my loneliness -- the very loneliness that tempts me to write a rather pathetic wall of text at 3:30 in the morning like this --that tempts me to think that maybe it's only too appropriate for me to see them again under these circumstances. Three years ago, I ventured out in hopes of achieving happiness and personal fulfillment and finding purpose in life...and I failed. Every new friend I made in law school from the past three years has turned their backs on me. All the progress I thought I made in becoming a more progressive person has only resulted in me losing friendships in the conservative evangelical communities I had once called home.

Do I really have the right to proclaim myself a 'better person' if a selfish part of myself wishes I had the security and stability and community I once had, even though I had to believe terrible things to belong there?

Can I really call myself a committed progressive and an ally to the oppressed if I'm so eager to seek out those eight friends again, despite the fact that they cater to the worst facets of an irredeemably bigoted and closed-minded society?

Can I really justify the decision to see them again as one validated by the eerie sense of deja vu? A desperate need for history to repeat itself? I see them again, they cheer me up, they help me deal with the necessity to remain anti-social during Bar prep, I pass the second time, I move on -- that's the script I want to believe in. History can repeat itself. It'll be 2008 to 2009 all over again.

But isn't it all just a delusional fantasy that I'm indulging only because I don't want to confront the truth? The truth that I've failed -- as a person, as a human being. The fact that I'm alone. All alone. The fact that I've made choices -- justifiable choices, maybe, logically and morally correct choices, feasibly, but my own choices -- that have led me down this path, right back into the pit of despair.

...It's sad when you reach rock bottom and you think about just ending it all, shutting it all down, refusing to retake the Bar, refusing to do anything, and the one thing that snaps you out of that funk and puts a smile back on your face is an image of those eight friends on a videogaming website.

...And then you remember they're homophobic, sexist, bigoted assholes these days.
And then your despair is reinforced by the notion that becoming more progressive, more empathetic, more aware of hatred and oppression and bigotry has just turned you into a cynical, frothing, kneejerkingly sensitive emotional basket-case of a person.

There was that other friend from college who angrily cursed you out when you stood on principle and defended gay marriage. Sure, he was, and still is, a Republican with some fucking awful beliefs. But he was also a friend. He was one of the few living, breathing people you confided with. You haven't spoken to him since.
...What about your ex-pastor, the one who you deliberately lost touch with after he privately suggested he didn't believe climate change existed? Sure, he wasn't much of scientist, and his ignorance aggravated you. But he was a kind, caring individual who appreciated you and who stood with you in the past. And you left the moment he said something disagreeable.

And of course, there are other stories that are even less clear-cut, less black-and-white with ascertainable lines of right and wrong. There've been friends you've lost due to your own selfishness, your own obsessive working schedule, your own perfectionism, your own laziness. Sometimes you've excused a disinterest to reconnect with them with an assumption of their moral decrepitude -- "He calls himself a libertarian on Facebook, therefore I shouldn't hang out with him anymore because he might have terrible values." Sometimes it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, a spiral of despair that reinforces itself as things inevitably go awry as predicted.

...The problem was always more than just those eight friends, but those eight happen to embody it well, and in a manner that allows a degree of separation from the living, breathing people who are even more painful to reflect upon. No one's perfect. Everyone's hopelessly flawed.

Maybe I just need to acknowledge that and try to pick up the pieces, concentrate less on being right and more on finding contentment, take whatever moments of happiness -- however elusive, however built upon lies and facades -- this world's unforgiving deities can spare.

...Or maybe this is all just a punishment I deserve, recompense for sins. Maybe this time I refuse all pretext of escapism, all imaginary ideal of utopia, and confront the fact that life sucks, society sucks, humanity sucks, I hate it all, I hate myself, I hate the system, I hate the oppressors, but I am an oppressor, but if I find a way to just stop caring, I can become an automaton and march through it all.

I didn't write this to beg for advice. I don't imagine there's much advice to give me when I'm just writing a borderline-incoherent depressing rant at this early hour.

I'll concede, as I should, that I did write this, at least in part, for your sympathies. There's no sense in being dishonest. You all know me as a dramatist, the type who's ordinarily excessively eager to throw a pity party. It's a foul reputation that's eminently deserved.
Sometimes you just want to hear someone tell you it'll be okay, and that you're not a terrible person, and that you're redeemable and worth something. Sometimes you actually want, in a silly sense, someone to mock you and belittle your fears and apprehensions. Such incredulity can reinforce a desired negative narrative -- look at this nasty thing he said, he's right, I really am as pathetic as he's implying, just like I thought.

Or, it can force petty confrontation. Sometimes a petty engineered conflict can help bury the real underlying issues.
Maybe that's why I wrote this. Maybe I want one of you to come out swinging, so instead of spending the next week wallowing in despair all alone, we can both mobilize our supporters on NPF and engage in some worthless NPF battle of egos over whether certain words and sentences were phrased properly. That's the real reason why flamewars exist on the internet, I'd imagine. Just a bunch of escape artists seeking something to be offended over that's less damning than their own personal shortcomings. Just the chance to have a reason to thank a friend who defends me, or at least engage in some meaningful social contact with anyone who rebuts me.

...It's strange to be in a place where you're so sad that you'd genuinely be excited if Smarty showed up and insulted you in the snarky way he always does. It's a perverse sort of affirmation. "You see, I exist! Smarty knows I exist!! I know that because he's engaging me in the way he always engages Snake!!! Snake is a person that is real, who some people like, and who others dislike, but who everyone knows, dammit"


...Despite all this, I keep coming back to one thought.
I had dozens upon dozens of friends, once. Far more than eight, really. Chie and Kanji and Naoto were just voices and pixels, after all. Others had real faces, real identities, and I knew them, and they supported me, and I cherished them. They're the ones that hurt. Rise and Teddie and Yukiko are just easier to mention.

...Now I have nothing.
I guess I'm just wondering what it all means.

Professor Smarmiarty
11-22-2012, 04:47 AM
I believe it was Louis Althusser who said "People are stupid, friends are shit, the revolution is busted, let's just wasted."

Krylo
11-22-2012, 10:26 AM
Well I could respond in a thoughtful serious manner, but then on the other hand, there's this paragraph. . .

Or, it can force petty confrontation. Sometimes a petty engineered conflict can help bury the real underlying issues.
Maybe that's why I wrote this. Maybe I want one of you to come out swinging, so instead of spending the next week wallowing in despair all alone, we can both mobilize our supporters on NPF and engage in some worthless NPF battle of egos over whether certain words and sentences were phrased properly. That's the real reason why flamewars exist on the internet, I'd imagine. Just a bunch of escape artists seeking something to be offended over that's less damning than their own personal shortcomings. Just the chance to have a reason to thank a friend who defends me, or at least engage in some meaningful social contact with anyone who rebuts me.

And man, that really seems a lot easier.

So, like. Fuck you.

Or something.

phil_
11-22-2012, 11:19 AM
Have you tried Hidamari Sketch? I haven't watched the first three seasons with my "patriarchy is everywhere" glasses, but Honeycomb hasn't tripped that switch very hard, so it's probably fine.

Bells
11-22-2012, 11:21 AM
You are Edgar Allan Poe'ing pretty hard there bro.

Can't really go in deep about your feelings exposed here, cause quite frankly right now it feels like baiting someone to scratch a raw exposed nerve. But i wouldn't look down on your perceptions of life... to some extent i can relate. I also firmly believe that things aren't as bad as you perceive them, but no amount of talking can show you that.

If venting here does any good for you at all, at least be aware that you got some honest attention here. And that you don't have to grow up to become one of that assholes that can only get social interaction by verbally battling every living being within your voice radius...

And, quite bluntly, time used crying over failure is time wasted not trying again or trying something else.

rpgdemon
11-22-2012, 11:26 AM
Dude, you have to learn that because someone is uniformed doesn't mean they're shit and an asshole and a terrible person, and you shouldn't treat someone who you know clearly is compassionate (Eg: The pastor) like shit, just because they're misinformed/uninformed/told blatant lies by those they trust. If they're actually compassionate, you're just being a jerk for not helping them actually be kind.

Example: I know many people who honestly believe that life will be better for poor people under a republican regime, and the reason that they are voting republican is because they honestly think that it will help those in this country who are less fortunate. In those cases, I know these people aren't assholes. People here will probably jump in and say, "BECAUSE THEY'RE VOTING THE EVIL PARTY, THEY ARE!", but the truth of the matter is, they're just uninformed about what the republican party is actually like these days. And I'm not going to cut all ties to them because they're lied to, I'm going to continue being their friend, and when the topic comes up, jovially mention that they're incorrect on a lot of issues, back it up with facts, and they have already changed a lot of their views, because of this.

You can't boil someone down to one choice that they make, probably about once every four years. That's all that politics are to a lot of people, and there's no point in destroying a friendship for that.

In the case of your eight friends? If they're all misogynistic jerks, that's completely different, and you really shouldn't hang around with them, and you're making the totally right call here. You're not missing THEM, you miss the acceptance, confidence, and friendship that you had, that they happened to be involved in. It's the same way that I look at breakups: It's not the person you're missing, because it turned out things were not good between you, to the point where you had to break up. It's that feeling of being with someone that you miss, and the only way to get that back is to stop pining for the person who you don't get that feeling with, and look for a place where you can get it.

In this case, don't worry about your jerk "friends". They're not what you miss. You miss a community, and you have one, Snake. You have a lot of friends on here who actually care about you. You might not care about many people here, for whatever reasons, and okay, but there are still some people you actually like. And, the majority of people here are actually good people who care about others, despite what the arguments that crop up would have you think. They might not always be the most informed, or do the best at helping others, but they at least care, which ought to count for a lot.

Bells
11-22-2012, 11:42 AM
Just to add a bit, as much as there is a noble silver lining in trying to expand someone's horizons and views, you also must always police yourself... so you don't become "Holier Than Thou". I for one can tell you that i've seen people that start with the noblest of goals and ends up indulging thoughts of "If only they saw things MY way..." and "I wish i could save them from their terrible, terrible thoughts".

It happens, and you don't wanna be that guy.

Liking something, someone, anything, anybody... it is not mandatory. But respecting it, all of it, is necessary. There is a difference, and it matters.

Ryong
11-22-2012, 11:47 AM
For starters, I'm going to link you this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gaq62VCcnew).

Second, good advice here all around.

I have a friend who's in a similar situation except that he's still recovering from his first fall instead of his second like you. Me and some mutual friends try to help him but, thing is, friends can only do so much, the rest is up to the person.

Nikose Tyris
11-22-2012, 11:49 AM
Once you are aware of it, and accept that it shouldn't be a tolerable thing, you can never bring yourself to tolerate and abide it. It must change, or it will drive you mad.

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I have a friend who's in a similar situation except that he's still recovering from his first fall instead of his second like you. Me and some mutual friends try to help him but, thing is, friends can only do so much, the rest is up to the person.

Well, fortunately I've only failed the Bar once.
If I fail it again in Feb. I will somehow manage to become even more despondent than I am now, if that's even possible.

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 01:15 PM
In the case of your eight friends? If they're all misogynistic jerks, that's completely different, and you really shouldn't hang around with them, and you're making the totally right call here. You're not missing THEM, you miss the acceptance, confidence, and friendship that you had, that they happened to be involved in. It's the same way that I look at breakups: It's not the person you're missing, because it turned out things were not good between you, to the point where you had to break up. It's that feeling of being with someone that you miss, and the only way to get that back is to stop pining for the person who you don't get that feeling with, and look for a place where you can get it.

In this case, don't worry about your jerk "friends". They're not what you miss. You miss a community, and you have one, Snake. You have a lot of friends on here who actually care about you. You might not care about many people here, for whatever reasons, and okay, but there are still some people you actually like. And, the majority of people here are actually good people who care about others, despite what the arguments that crop up would have you think. They might not always be the most informed, or do the best at helping others, but they at least care, which ought to count for a lot.

Welp.
If last night was an academic dissertation, my supposedly "clever" attempt to compare old friends to the cast of Persona 4 would have gotten a failing grade, I see.

Premmy
11-22-2012, 02:01 PM
Welp.
If last night was an academic dissertation, my supposedly "clever" attempt to compare old friends to the cast of Persona 4 would have gotten a failing grade, I see.

To be fair, until you named names I thought you were talking about the Justice League.

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 02:18 PM
There goes any future career opportunities writing obtuse essays for the New Yorker

The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk
11-22-2012, 02:43 PM
And I thought he was talking about mlp thanks to this line;

I was introduced to these folks, and I enjoyed spending hundreds of hours with them. They were bright and cheery and eminently entertaining, and they took my mind off the pain of uncertainty as to my future.

I was scratching my head trying to work out who the other 2 characters were.

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 03:14 PM
And I thought he was talking about mlp thanks to this line;



I was scratching my head trying to work out who the other 2 characters were.

Fortunately, Pinkie Pie hasn't yet been revealed to be a racist, misogynistic homophobe.
At least not until the inevitable S3 episode where she pledges allegiance to Mittens Romney, the Reponycan candidate in Equestria

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 03:29 PM
Literally just got yelled at by my family for believing that climate change exists.
Huzzah for Thanksgiving!

Terex4
11-22-2012, 04:04 PM
Or, it can force petty confrontation. Sometimes a petty engineered conflict can help bury the real underlying issues.
Your inbox is full, quit being so popular, its inconvenient for me.
Sometimes you just want to hear someone tell you it'll be okay, and that you're not a terrible person, and that you're redeemable and worth something.
The good news is, it will be okay! I'm still miffed over the inbox thing though so you won't get my reassurance that you aren't terrible ::V:
Literally just got yelled at by my family for believing that climate change exists.
Huzzah for Thanksgiving!
All of the hugs I have to give are yours this day.

Kim
11-22-2012, 04:36 PM
Literally just got yelled at by my family for believing that climate change exists.
Huzzah for Thanksgiving!

Ask 'em how it feels to be celebrating a holiday about undocumented immigrants who refused to learn the language but still got food assistance (http://yoisthisracist.com/post/36288990531/i-cant-wait-to-remind-my-racist-ass-inlaws-today-that).

Professor Smarmiarty
11-22-2012, 04:36 PM
Fortunately, Pinkie Pie hasn't yet been revealed to be a racist, misogynistic homophobe.
At least not until the inevitable S3 episode where she pledges allegiance to Mittens Romney, the Reponycan candidate in Equestria

To be fair, animals are probably all these things. The more you read about animal psychology the more you realise how animals are really really stupid. Like far stupider than even human babies and fuck babies are stupid.

Ryong
11-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Well, fortunately I've only failed the Bar once.
If I fail it again in Feb. I will somehow manage to become even more despondent than I am now, if that's even possible.

I meant that you had issues in 2008 and then got better and are now having issues again. My friend's still recovering from his first one.

Also, you know there's fanfiction of MLP supporting Romney right?

Kim
11-22-2012, 04:51 PM
To be fair, animals are probably all these things. The more you read about animal psychology the more you realise how animals are really really stupid. Like far stupider than even human babies and fuck babies are stupid.

they can't even read

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 06:22 PM
Also, you know there's fanfiction of MLP supporting Romney right?

And here I thought this day could not get any worse
(Now we have to read them)

Professor Smarmiarty
11-22-2012, 07:28 PM
they can't even read

Forget reading, they can't even understand language! The stupidest baby can understand language effortlessly.

What have animals ever done for us! Besides possibly help us beat the neanderthals and evolve communities and empathy, and besides agriculture and construction and food what have animals ever done for us?

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 07:40 PM
Besides possibly help us beat the neanderthals and evolve communities and empathy

I seriously wouldn't be altogether shocked to ultimately learn that a great deal of human social conventions were picked up from dogs
Those wolves really were our best friends

Sithdarth
11-22-2012, 07:41 PM
they can't even understand language!

I know we're going for over the topness here but that is very obviously not true.

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 07:46 PM
Also I can't believe it
Ryong linked me to the 'Patriotpony' who's quoted on SexayPartay as believing that Ayn Rand and Pinkie Pie's values can be jovially intertwined

The two highlights:
* It's from a goddamn OKCupid dating profile. He quickly asserts he wants to be THE MAN in a theoretical relationship, lest the Pinkie Pie shoutout lead to any doubts
* He's writing an MLP: FiM fanfiction called "Serfdom in Equestria." It is, I shit you not, an 'expose' on how the 'liberal agenda' destroys the ponies' lives.

I know it's a bit petty and selfish for me to confess this, but I feel a whole lot better about myself after reading through that, and I sincerely look forward to a critical analysis of this man's first fanfiction.

Professor Smarmiarty
11-22-2012, 08:21 PM
I know we're going for over the topness here but that is very obviously not true.

If by very obviously you mean the contention of a few marginal researchers with dicey evidence and using the broadest definition of language possible then yes it is very obviously not true. You can even raise them as humans and they can't get past the most simplest of sentences- until they can recurse their way through Proust animals can't understand shit. Welcome to Chomskyville mofo, we play for keeps.

phil_
11-22-2012, 08:23 PM
Welp.
If last night was an academic dissertation, my supposedly "clever" attempt to compare old friends to the cast of Persona 4 would have gotten a failing grade, I see.I got it around here:I lived vicariously through their adventures as they solved a ludicrous mystery and bonded over mundane academic feats. It was escapism, yes -- but I was at a point in my life where I'm willing to concede I needed that escapism, not as a permanent solution but at least as a temporary fix, something to get me from point A to point B.when I thought, "Man, I sure don't consider real friends escapism. That's what animay friends are for. Or video game people... oh."

Or, yeah, Pinkie Pie, I guess. I like them Hidmari people more, but that's probably since I've been watching it so long. Also, Pinkie Pie was kinda out of line in that Gotta Share song you have linked in your sig, but, I mean, privilege doesn't make you a bad pony, which I think might've been the point.

Geminex
11-22-2012, 08:30 PM
If by very obviously you mean the contention of a few marginal researchers with dicey evidence and using the broadest definition of language possible then yes it is very obviously not true. Until they can recurse their way through Proust animals can't understand shit. Welcome to Chomskyville mofo, we play for keeps.

you mean
scooby doo was fake????

Professor Smarmiarty
11-22-2012, 08:31 PM
It was just a really hairy dude.

rpgdemon
11-22-2012, 09:21 PM
Welp.
If last night was an academic dissertation, my supposedly "clever" attempt to compare old friends to the cast of Persona 4 would have gotten a failing grade, I see.

See, in my defense, I've never played any of the Persona games.

Solid Snake
11-22-2012, 11:54 PM
You've just stumbled upon the definition of a Snakepost up there, RPG.

Kim
11-23-2012, 01:07 AM
It was just a really hairy dude.

I thought he was a pokemon.

The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk
11-23-2012, 02:25 AM
I thought he was the drug induced delusion of Shaggys mind?

Sithdarth
11-23-2012, 03:43 AM
If by very obviously you mean the contention of a few marginal researchers with dicey evidence and using the broadest definition of language possible then yes it is very obviously not true. You can even raise them as humans and they can't get past the most simplest of sentences- until they can recurse their way through Proust animals can't understand shit. Welcome to Chomskyville mofo, we play for keeps.

They don't think like me so they must not think at all! :rolleyes: Great line of reasoning there. Though you don't generally respect the intelligence or the research of anyone that isn't you to begin with (or at least I've never seen it) so I'm not entirely sure why I'd thought for a second you'd appreciate the fact that other people are capable of valid scientific research you might not understand or agree with. But I'm not going to derail this anymore by having an argument about valid definitions of language.

And sorry about this Snake. I'd totally offer up some advice but I've had like 3 total friends in real life to begin with and my experience with school up until college is at best described as hell. At best I can totally assure you that depression can be beaten eventually. I actually had a very bad time of it around the middle of my 3rd year of undergrad. Took 3 semesters off, then came back added a second major and now I'm about halfway through graduate school and loving what I do. If at all possible try to look at the initial failure as a way to challenge yourself to do better next time. If at all possible attempt to use it as motivation instead of dwelling on it and letting it get you depressed.

shiney
11-23-2012, 09:54 AM
Someone didn't get it or didn't read the thread...

Sithdarth
11-23-2012, 10:21 AM
Snake is feeling depressed about failing the bar and doesn't like the new direction the Persona series of video games is taking and is kinda torn up about it because those games helped him through his first big failure. He also used it as an allegory to him distancing self from actual people he knows due to disagreements of ideology.

But in general it is safe to assume I don't get something. In this case it's probably something to do with how I shouldn't be so serious and I wish I could do that but I really am not wired that way. I can kind of pull it off sometimes but in general it's not a thing that I can do.

Bobbey
11-23-2012, 11:52 AM
Most of the advice I would've given you has already been said by RPG on the first page of this thread (very well said, may I add). I just want to insist on the community part, in other words, the community here at NPF. Now, I don't come here as often as I would like, but I know that this here forum has a bunch of fantastic guys and gals who are always ready to give good advice and support (in their own original and elegant ways) and I know that if I had anything boggling my mind I could always come here and tell my story (maybe not a Snakewall however, my English skills are definitely not as advanced as most people here to write something as elaborate and poetic).

Also, I find that in life we tend to go through ''phases'' of friends, or friendships. In 4 years you've had enough time to change and develop new ideologies, which differ from your 8 friends nowadays. I've had the same thing happen to me lately, where my old music school friends and I barely talk anymore since we're on opposite sides of the music spectrum in a way. Thing is, you'll find new friends eventually. As long as you're in situations where you meet many different people, like school for example, you'll always meet new people and new friendships will form. It's a shame about your old friends, really, but hey, if you need to talk about it, you've always got your friends here.

By the by, my msn account ceased to work months ago and I cannot get it back for some reason, so the only way to contact me is through facebook if you need to talk. I'll occasionally visit the chat here too.

Solid Snake
11-23-2012, 01:01 PM
Snake is feeling depressed about failing the bar and doesn't like the new direction the Persona series of video games is taking and is kinda torn up about it because those games helped him through his first big failure. He also used it as an allegory to him distancing self from actual people he knows due to disagreements of ideology.

+1,000,000 points

Actually, beyond the Persona comparison stuff, I'd love to hear someone like Kim's or Poch's advice for the appropriate progressive approach to handling conservative friends in a way that does not degrade my values but that also does not leave me a lonely, bitter, angry, cynical shell of a human being.

Kim
11-23-2012, 01:18 PM
Just get better friends, dogg.

Solid Snake
11-23-2012, 01:21 PM
Just get better friends, dogg.

Easier said than done, I'm afraid. =/
Especially with Bar exam study prep coming up again. (And moving twice in the next five months.)

pochercoaster
11-23-2012, 02:30 PM
Short version: what Kim said.

Long version: Man, as someone who rarely makes friends and rarely bothers to actually keep them going I'm totally not qualified to answer this. Here goes anyways:

Question: What are your friendships based on? IDK if you're like me but I compartmentalize my social life. Some friends I just work with, some friends I go to the gym with, and some friends (by which I mean one person + my husband, who I met through NPF anyways lulz) I can actually have a conversation with. Actually I don't see my work and gym friends anymore since they're 2,000 miles to the north; incidentally our friendship has sort of faded, since it was based on a mutual activity/forced mutual contact through work anyways. The only friendship that remains is with this one other person and we exchange letters to keep it going. Anyways, if I expected friends in one group to meet criteria from another group of friends, I wouldn't get along with them as well. (It's important to note though that while I wouldn't be able to have certain "intellectual" conversations with my work or gym friends that doesn't mean they were spouting off conservative nonsense either, cause that wasn't really a thing where I used to live. I haven't really had to deal with that offline so I imagine it would actually annoy the crap out of me, perhaps making it difficult to be in their company...)

Anyways, life changes, people change. If your friendship with these people was originally based on like... having someone to talk to who shared ideologies that you no longer subscribe to, and if they say a bunch of things now that are unfathomable and make you uncomfortable, and if they're adamant about spouting off a bunch of racist/sexist/whatever crap, and this make their company unpleasant to be around, and they're not interested in listening (to one's polite, gentle counter arguments) but want to keep on spewing bullshit, then it might be time to find new friends.

That's not so much about black-and-white "Oh this is a good person, this is a bad person!" thing, it's more about why would you hang around people who you don't have things in common with anymore? What do either of you gain by being in each other's company? That's a serious question, since I don't know you are you friends there very well may be some things that make your friendship worthwhile which would return us to the original point, how to deal with conservative friends.

To which I would say: Depending on how adamant your friends are about their beliefs, I don't think there really is a way besides ignoring it? This is why how adamant said friends are about their political beliefs it's important; someone who thinks they have a license to spew bullshit constantly but not listen to another perspective is going to be annoying as hell (regardless of what side of the fence they're on), as there is no longer mutual exchange, and if there's no longer mutual exchange it's not really a balanced friendship. So eventually it just sort of breaks down and becomes pointless.

If you have friends who are less adamant about their beliefs and/or respect other perspectives and just want ideas for ways to word your opinion in a way that's they'll be more receptive to, I can dig up some resources for talking to friends about this stuff (but it'll be later in the evening/tomorrow when I do that since I have stuff to do today.)

There's also something to be said for being comfortable with being alone or without many/any friends for periods of time like these. I don't know how to give advice for that because by default I am happier alone than in the company of others, even if it's pleasant company. If you're not naturally like that I'm not sure what to tell you. Perhaps a therapist might help with anxiety? IDK if this applies to you but some people are anxious when they're alone.

Magus
11-23-2012, 04:02 PM
Snake outliberaling his liberal friends is kind of funny. He'll probably go work for SPLC after graduating and be horribly dissatisfied.

The SSB Intern
11-23-2012, 10:22 PM
Welp.
If last night was an academic dissertation, my supposedly "clever" attempt to compare old friends to the cast of Persona 4 would have gotten a failing grade, I see.

Wait so who was the rape and murder loving psychopath?

Solid Snake
11-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Wait so who was the rape and murder loving psychopath?

A villain in Persona 4
Now you can play the role of criminal accomplice.

Solid Snake
11-23-2012, 11:16 PM
It's 'optional', which is Atlus' excuse for incorporating it, but if you're a completionist you'll need to befriend him at least initially to max out the social link (and presumably, to unlock additional endgame content you have to max out every social link in the game.)

...More importantly, though, it's kind of creepy that Atlus decided to add new content to a great game, and their idea of the best possible new social link to incorporate was: "I know! Let's have you befriend the psychopathic guy who thinks sexual assault and murder ain't no thing!"

It'd be one thing if Atlus had incorporated said social link into the original game. Then it could be considered a clever narrative tool to help deepen the mystery and have a more shocking, emotionally investing plot twist when the big reveal finally happens. After all, sociopaths can put on shows of normalcy to deceive everyday people.

But the after-the-fact inclusion of said social link in a game that's already been released -- and that will predominantly appeal to repeat players in the established fanbase, not players who are completely new to the series -- reeks of male privilege. It's appealing to single men immersed in rape culture with an 'empowering' rapist fantasy wherein the rapist / murderer / evil fuckwit is humanized and can be befriended.

And then when the 'big twist' is revealed, you can choose to help him cover up the crimes, which is really the most twisted part of it all. You can essentially choose to have the main character -- who's presented not as sociopathic or mentally unbalanced but as a paragon of virtue and someone to be admired and emulated -- value the criminal's friendship over the victims and over any sense of a moral compass.

At no point should Atlus have said, while dreaming up ideas for additional content: "I know what we need! Skimpy outfits for the female characters, a shitton of male gaze applied when they're fighting in those outfits in battle, and the ability to befriend the game's villainous sexual assaulter!" It's like they're purposely trying to ruin the theme of the original game, which was all about friendship and tolerance and progressivism (or that's what I wanted to believe the theme was, anyway.)

RE: Pocheros
'Compartmentalizing' friends is something I have great difficulty with. I tend to believe in the fairy-tale notion that you should be in total sync with a friend, and that's unlikely to be feasible in the 'real world.' So, I'll have to work on that.
Thanks for the advice.

rpgdemon
11-24-2012, 12:04 AM
RE: Pocheros
'Compartmentalizing' friends is something I have great difficulty with. I tend to believe in the fairy-tale notion that you should be in total sync with a friend, and that's unlikely to be feasible in the 'real world.' So, I'll have to work on that.
Thanks for the advice.

Come on man, I said like the exact same thing on page 1 before it was cool.

I SEE WHAT YOU REALLY THINK OF ME. WHICH IS THE SAME AS WHAT YOU APPEAR TO THINK OF ME OUTWARDLY.

Solid Snake
11-24-2012, 01:00 AM
Come on man, I said like the exact same thing on page 1 before it was cool.

I SEE WHAT YOU REALLY THINK OF ME. WHICH IS THE SAME AS WHAT YOU APPEAR TO THINK OF ME OUTWARDLY.

...I hope you're just joking around.
...Right?