America is Great!

[RobinStarwing]

So, twenty pages of what makes America a terrible place and this does not even get started for balance?

Rules of this topic.

1. No "America sucks!" as that has it's own thread already for far longer.

2. No "America! Fuck yeah!" stuff please? I want meme-free zone here.

3. Debate is allowed but let's not go off the reservation here.


So what makes this country great for me? Besides being born here I like the fact that we can get together and (as long as the idiotic morons of the far left, far right, and special interests don't get to control the conversation), we can agree to disagree and compromise.

Also, out country has the freedom to vote down stupidity like this past election cycle showed.

That's what I can think up right now and no, I am not doing an Essay for the "Improvement of Robin Threads" program some of you want to keep going.

[Arcanum]

I think we need-


That's what I can think up right now and no, I am not doing an Essay for the "Improvement of Robin Threads" program some of you want to keep going.

Aww nevermind.

[Kim]

let's not go off the reservation here

If you wanted to talk about how great America is, bringing up reservations was probably not the best idea.

[Bells]

I appreciate your many flavors of Doritos!

[shiney]

America creates tons of work opportunities in third-world countries!

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

America invented unoriginality.

[RobinStarwing]

I think we need-



Aww nevermind.

Yeah...not doing essays.

If you wanted to talk about how great America is, bringing up reservations was probably not the best idea.

You know what I meant.

America creates tons of work opportunities in third-world countries!

Rich assholes create work opportunities in Third World Countries by stealing same jobs from Americans.

America invented unoriginality.

Than why does China try to steal so much from the US and other Western Nations? I will happily cite sources and reports on this if asked.

EDIT: Just not tonight, I've got a bat'leth to the head.

[Aldurin]

America will accommodate for you, no matter how fat you are. Hell, they may increase the national standard for doorway width at this rate.

[Kim]

Than why does China try to steal so much from the US and other Western Nations? I will happily cite sources and reports on this if asked.

First page of a pro-nationalist thread showing off Robin's racism against China? You don't say.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Than why does China try to steal so much from the US and other Western Nations? I will happily cite sources and reports on this if asked.

Robin jesus fuck

[Bells]

Y'know how there are people who like to eat meat and people who don't like to eat meat and that's all fine and good, but then there is also that one person that doesn't like to eat meat and thinks you are worst of a person for eating meat? ...yeah, this thread brought that analogy to mind.

As far as countries goes, if you are in the USA you are doing quite fine for yourself. If you know of a better place, i guess the best thing for you would be to work real nice and hard now that you are young and full of bright ideas and ideals and, y'know... go there.

[Aerozord]

Geez guys Robin is just trying to create a thread around positive points to counter all the negativity. Is this community so full of bile and hatred that you have to post negativity and sarcasm on a thread thats just saying "hey say something nice about this place".

[pochercoaster]

America is next to Canada, so I guess there's that.

[Arcanum]

Geez guys Robin is just trying to create a thread around positive points to counter all the negativity. Is this community so full of bile and hatred that you have to post negativity and sarcasm on a thread thats just saying "hey say something nice about this place".

You must be new here.

[POS Industries]

Well, it's certainly the prettiest country I've ever lived in.

[pochercoaster]

Also, I guess it's a pretty good place to live if you're wealthy and like to take advantage of poor people.

[Satan's Onion]

Deep-fried butter, Bain Capital, and Jay Leno.

http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

[Locke cole]

I have a feeling this thread is going to be nothing but "nice things" at the most accommodating.

[Satan's Onion]

Jeff Dunham! Fracking!

http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

[POS Industries]

http://i.imgur.com/YgVby.jpg

[Bells]

Also, I guess it's a pretty good place to live if you're wealthy and like to take advantage of poor people.

That's... anywhere.


Also, Mountain Dew? Never had it, Highly interested.

Also also, i had a Mars Bars the other day... a little bit too sweet, but tasty nonetheless. So, thanks america!

And hey! Some of the greatest scientists of our past and present were born and raised in US soil, so there is that too...

The mars rover is pretty nifty.... and Morgan Freeman. Also Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering...

[Satan's Onion]

Nuclear warheads! Larry The Cable Guy! Looking down on the French!


http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

[Locke cole]

America's been pretty good to me so far.

[Satan's Onion]

Twilight. Fad diets. Years of warfare!

http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

[Aerozord]

America is responsible for the internet, most of the parts in your computer are developed by american companies, this specific forum is from a webcomic made by an american.

[Aerozord]

Twilight. Fad diets. Years of warfare!

http://imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

I think europe having wars that lasted centuries kind of beats us on that

[Locke cole]

I've heard of some labs near where I live that are working on wearable computers.

That is, clothing that has circuitry woven into fabric.

[POS Industries]

I think europe having wars that lasted centuries kind of beats us on that
Yeah guys, it's okay that we're a terrifying superpower responsible for countless deaths and rampant destruction around the world because medieval times happened!

[CABAL49]

America gave me the money so that I can leave.

[Flarecobra]

So is this about the United States of America, or the two American continents?

[Bells]

9Gag! Kotaku! 4Chan! Youtube! Facebook! Apple! Microsoft! Minecraft!

...wait, i'm not doing this right, am i?

[Locke cole]

Ecuador is cool.

[Kim]

Geez guys Robin is just trying to create a thread around positive points to counter all the negativity. Is this community so full of bile and hatred that you have to post negativity and sarcasm on a thread thats just saying "hey say something nice about this place".

He's the one that decided to respond to a joke by defaulting to his typical anti-China racism.

[Aerozord]

Yeah guys, it's okay that we're a terrifying superpower responsible for countless deaths and rampant destruction around the world because medieval times happened!

which describes any superpower at that given point in history. I mean, wow what a shock a nation uses its military, political, and economic influence for its own benefit. If I didn't know any better I'd think nations exist to look out for their own interests. No no, you are right clearly those boarders and insistence on sovereignty have nothing to do with war. I'm sure if England or Germany had the superior military and were in economic depression they'd just leave resource rich nations alone.

[Kim]

which describes any superpower at that given point in history. I mean, wow what a shock a nation uses its military, political, and economic influence for its own benefit. If I didn't know any better I'd think nations exist to look out for their own interests. No no, you are right clearly those boarders and insistence on sovereignty have nothing to do with war. I'm sure if England or Germany had the superior military and were in economic depression they'd just leave resource rich nations alone.

Which is why nationalism and patriotism are evil.

Also lol at trying to trivialize murder, oppression, and general awful fuckery with, "Other countries did it, too!"

[Flarecobra]

http://media.tumblr.com/d0741b302f711e753c3984e52d77b5b6/tumblr_inline_mgy2r4MlxK1ql2rn8.jpg

[Solid Snake]

He's the one that decided to respond to a joke by defaulting to his typical anti-China racism.

The sad things is there are a lot of incredibly legitimate issues to criticize China's government over, but Robin can't seem to find one.
(I believe there are a lot of incredibly legitimate reasons to criticize every institution of power everywhere, I have nothing against China specifically.)

[RobinStarwing]

The sad things is there are a lot of incredibly legitimate issues to criticize China's government over, but Robin can't seem to find one.
(I believe there are a lot of incredibly legitimate reasons to criticize every institution of power everywhere, I have nothing against China specifically.)

I thought you were serious Liz.

Also, my main issues with the Government of Mainland China are these and not in any order.

1. Limiting on Freedom> No surprise here.

2. Tibet> They invaded it in the 1950's and since than have said it's always been a part of China that they held rights too.

3. Imperialism> If we want to talk Imperialistic tendencies...what about all that area in the South China Sea and the ocean around Southeast Asia that China is trying to lay claim too (even waters that are recognized internationally as owned by other nations?). Also, how about their cyberwarfare programs? You want me to honestly believe that their Great Firewall has that many holes in it or that the populace is that good with computers? The US ain't innocent on this either but at least we are upfront about it by having it made mention we got a military unit dedicated to Cyberwarfare on all levels.

[Satan's Onion]

that reminds me!

SuperPACs! 24-hour news channels! Hundred-ounce sodas!

http://i.imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

[Solid Snake]

which describes any superpower at that given point in history. I mean, wow what a shock a nation uses its military, political, and economic influence for its own benefit. If I didn't know any better I'd think nations exist to look out for their own interests. No no, you are right clearly those boarders and insistence on sovereignty have nothing to do with war. I'm sure if England or Germany had the superior military and were in economic depression they'd just leave resource rich nations alone.

England and Germany do have superior power on the IR scene compared with most nations, and the mere fact that they're not the United States right now doesn't mean they aren't fully capable of doing shitty things with the power they're currently wielding.

See: Germany choking Greece, the European Union shitting over Turkey for daring to be Muslim, the French and the UK orchestrating the Libyan intervention as they'd predominantly benefit from Libyan oil, the French intervening now in Mali because fuck Islamists we HATE Islamists kill 'em all (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/01/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE9100OS20130201)

That being said, the chief ringleader of this string of unacceptable capitalist Old World Order bullshit is the U.S.A., so it isn't remotely relevant to point out that "everyone else would do it too." First, that's incredibly culturally insensitive because it presumes that peoples of foreign societies all really, deep down inside have some classical western European Westphalian notion of nation-states, or would have said notion if it wasn't forced down their fucking throats by Colonial Europe curbstomping the crap out of the world.

Peoples from other cultures have remarkably different views about power, property, contracts, rule of law, economics, you fuckin' name it. Now that doesn't mean I personally believe the world would be a better place if we wholeheartedly adopted, say, a conservative Islamist interpretation of women's rights, and that's not to say that western culture is of 'lesser' inherent value simply because it's dominant, but a presumption that any world dominated by a superpower would be plagued with the same bullshit that America plagues the world with is ludicrous.

Case in Bleepin' Point: The Mongols. Yeah, you heard me right. Did you know that the Golden Horde was ruled for generations by the daughters of Genghis Khan because Genghis preferred them as heirs over his lousy-ass sons? The Mongols were in many respects the horde of marauders Christians, Muslims and the Chinese have collectively portrayed them, but they also were shockingly progressive in regards to the roles of women, female inheritance, property, social mobility and religious tolerance. Their attitudes and opinions were so remarkably different than any western nation-state that any attempt to compare or contrast the Mongolian Empire with modern America from an IR perspective is bunk. If the Mongolian Empire had continued to exist it's possible it'd be utopian or hellish, but it'd be so conceptually different that a Westphalian sovereign conceptualization of the Mongols as a 'superpower nation-state' would be effectively impossible.

If the Mongols had actually succeeded in retaining their empire it'd be incredibly presumptuous to assume they'd follow a western European development, just as it'd be similarly presumptuous to assume that a Native American America (which is something that very nearly happened, had plagues not decimated the Native American population both prior to and during European colonialism) would ultimately adhere to European norms. Flip a dice in dozens of moments in history and we'd live in a remarkably different sociopolitical universe.

So, fuck the notion that Westphalian nation-states are by any means natural byproducts of the existence of governments or anything like that. It's too simplistic, it's inaccurate, and it's just something Americans and Western Europeans tell themselves so they feel good about their nations hoarding the power because they can at least go to bed with smiles on their faces assuming that it's okay because everyone else would've done the same if only they had the luck or the ingenuity and "it's just human nature."
The vast majority of human history we were hunter-gatherer tribal clans with a vastly different perspective of the world and our role in it and there's no strict guideline that says human social mores had to evolve the way they did.

[Kim]

If you want to make a thread about nationalism you're going to have to accept that some people are distinctly anti-nationalist and are going to make, OH DEAR GOD, jokes in your thread.

"American invented unoriginality." You see, it is a joke. If unoriginality did not exist, inventing it would be original. There is an inherent conflict to the statement, and that is made with the intent of humor.

Responding to that with, "Well China's worse!!" reflects really poorly on you. This is in part due to your history of overt racism against the Chinese people and the way you have repeatedly singled them out in the past for crimes your own country is also guilty of.

Aerozord is also guilty of responding to jokes and humor with generally inane statements, by replying to a light-hearted joke by a mod at the expense of the country that mod lives in with an earnest attempt to trivialize the actual awful things the country has done.

If you want to have a positive thread about a country that has done a lot of awful shit, you can't respond to jokes at the expense of that country by trivializing or defending the awful shit. Well, technically you can. It'll just turn your positive nationalist thread into well-deserved criticism of that country you love.

[stefan]

yeah no this thread started out with three engines on fire and is doing its best to crash into a building, and the only responsible choice is to ride it like a mechanical bull straight down into hell.


http://i.imgur.com/Y4rffSW.gif

The banana belt! organized crime! ingrained stigmatization of altruism!

http://i.imgur.com/HWZjuuX.gif

[Solid Snake]

I thought you were serious Liz.

That's funny. My name's not Liz and I don't know anyone named Liz or Elizabeth.

1. Limiting on Freedom> No surprise here.

I'll agree that this criticism of the Chinese government's restrictions on Chinese citizens' individual liberties is accurate so long as you agree that A: America's just as bad or even worse on some issues, offsetting those where the American Constitution has actually guaranteed its citizens superior natural rights, and B: changes to China's government have to be demanded from and earned by Chinese citizens; America can't imperialistically demand the Chinese to adopt their 'freedoms' without provocation or a jus ad bellum and call that an authentic or meaningful outcome.

As American citizens, however, (and/or European and/or Canadian citizens) we're in a far better position to demand and achieve change in our own political systems, as doing so would not superimpose our will in violation of ideal IR norms.

...Dammit, if this keeps up I'm going to have to bust out all my Chinese History and Chinese Law notes.

2. Tibet> They invaded it in the 1950's and since than have said it's always been a part of China that they held rights too.

...Every time an American brings this up you know it's the ultimate in stupid shit to say, right?
Hey, I know: The nation with 100% of its lands not belonging to the native culture but rather being wrongfully appropriated from its natives by military force should lecture the nation with a small portion of land wrongfully appropriated -- albeit far better and historically murky gray-area political claims to said land -- about how wrong it is to forcibly invade and occupy land!

[PyrosNine]

China's a bit loose on international intellectual property law, I'll admit, and being a growing economy just like ours (was?) they are just as likely to shamelessly crib ideas just like Americans do all the time. And both countries are totally going out of their way to copy Japan, which does it's best to return the favor, and so we've got this nice era of culture mixing, so I ain't complaining.

Pyros's laptop upstairs hooked to his TV is running on StartOS, an Ubuntu OS created by a Chinese company, designed specifically to look like Windows, and marketed for the selfsame reason. It used to have a slightly more blatantly Windows-y theme and name, but changed them after it starting being popular with Westerners and thus getting Internet Spotlight. Too bad it uses some ypk thing though, as it's a decently light build for my old hardware to run HD youtube vids, but installing or upgrading my apps is a pain the rear.

And America didn't invent Unoriginality- that shit's older than steel, considering early Western culture emphasized a few specific "arts" and artists, and every time any of them became popular there was a flood of imitators of a specific style or theme. We only remember the first and best, or look back specifically to see the "originals" in a period of copycats.

America is a country where everyone has the privilege of being an asshole, compared to countries where they don't, and is also not a country where people are supposed to be assholes for the country to work (though some would argue with me on that), and the best part is that particular privilege is there, but we don't have to make use of it.

We also have political parties and their leaders who don't go on stage and tv to publicly decry people of other ethnicities, religions, and creeds (though yeah, just like any person they'll probably do it behind closed doors). Sucks that we only have two parties, but I suppose if we did have 50 parties there'd be at least one that wore a "xenophobia/racist" hat.

While the quality of education may not match our European/Asian counterparts, (I think?), and some children in problematic areas of the nation still have to have more dedication and patience to get a high school diploma than most would expect of a young child, the luxury of attending some level of education is still higher than most for the lower classes.

Minorities will be the Majority within my lifetime!

We also still have one of the most diverse interconnected landscapes in a single stretch of country, having our own frozen north, our own tropical south, and fertile prairieland- radical shifts in terrain, flora, fauna between every state, and I think only China shares that situation in terms of global position and size.

People still go out of their way to come and live here for some reason.

This country has Sun-Drop.

This country has Pyros in it.

This country created My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

There is a community college here where one can get a degree in makin' video games for less than $11,100. That's pretty awesome for me, anyway.

[Solid Snake]

I think I'm going to create a "Reasons China Kicks Ass" thread this weekend with the explicit intent of ensuring that Robin has to least be sufficiently informed before demonizing the shit out of China again

Spoiler: Reason #1 China kicks ass is because right now they're practically the only remotely decent nation out there with a spine to speak up when America starts using Shitty Superpower Logic to do Shitty Superpower Things

[Solid Snake]

This country created My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.


...That'd be Canada.

[Loyal]

Robin has to least be sufficiently informed before demonizing the shit out of China again

Noooooooooooooot gonna happen.

[Solid Snake]

Noooooooooooooot gonna happen.

Irrational hatred of a foreign nation and its people isn't a 'quirk.' It's a goddamn disease.

[Grimpond]

WHoah whoah, back the fuck up loyal. Robin ain't no "peer".

[RobinStarwing]

Irrational hatred of a foreign nation and its people isn't a 'quirk.' It's a goddamn disease.

I think you missed me bolding the word Government to stress my issue is with the government of the country, not the people.

[Grimpond]

I think you missed me bolding the word Government to stress my issue is with the government of the country, not the people.

Your racism applies towards the people, too.

[PyrosNine]

...That'd be Canada.

Well, Lauren Faust, the creator is American, and Hasbro is an American company formed in Rhode Island (though it does center it's production in East Asia) and they outsourced the animation/voice acting to Canada, So it's a Canadian production of an American product designed by an American, so it is a little weird to point out the stronger influence that created it.

Also, if irrational hatred is a disease, then world politics and economics run entirely upon widest, most virulent strain straight out of Pandemic 2.

[Loyal]

"Quirk" was as much a catch-all shorthand term as "peers" was. For you see, "acquaintances" doesn't quite roll off the keyboard, and "glaring personality flaws that I cannot adequately explain" is just right out. While each of these would be more descriptive, I'm afraid some sacrifices must be made in the name of snappiness, in addition to adhering to the character limit imposed upon the title of the post.

Rest assured I have not forgotten (but will not repeat here) his litany of offenses, but, eventually, it just all blurs together into something undeniably "Robin", to which I resign myself because, after being deluged in it for long enough, I simply cannot bring myself to care anymore.

[Solid Snake]

I think you missed me bolding the word Government to stress my issue is with the government of the country, not the people.

You can't use the 'government' as a catch-all term to simply mask a rather obvious deeply-ingrained hatred that clearly isn't just directed at the Chinese government.

But let me ask you this, Robin. Let' assume you're right and you really are just angry at the Chinese government.
What can you tell me, right now, about the Chinese government?!

Have you taken classes on how differently the Chinese government operates on local, provincial and national levels?
What's the Chinese judiciary like?
What is Chinese law like?
What does its constitution say? Does China even have a constitution? Do you know what's written there? Do you know what additional protections China offers its citizens that America does not offer?
How does the communist party wield unilateral power in China? How is it justified?
What combination of historical forces took root in China to make communism appealing in the first place? What about Confucianism? Taoism? Buddhism? How did those religions influence Chinese policies?
What did Chinese law look like before westerners intervened and attempted to pseudo-colonize it into spheres of influence?
How did European interference in places like Shanghai lead to a profoundly negative impact on the development of Chinese law? Why were American laws incompatible with sound Chinese governance?
How does Maoism differ from European views of communism?
How does Deng Xiaoping's philosophy of governance actually have more in common with capitalism than communism?
Why does the Chinese government claim Tibet as its sovereign territory?

I majored in International Relations in college and minored in the East Asian regional specialization. When I worked as an administrator with the Peace Corps for a year, my specialty was China and Mongolia. When I went to law school, I took classes in Chinese history and Chinese law.

So tell me Robin. What's there to viciously despise about the Chinese government that you clearly know so much about?!?!

[RobinStarwing]

That's funny. My name's not Liz and I don't know anyone named Liz or Elizabeth.



I'll agree that this criticism of the Chinese government's restrictions on Chinese citizens' individual liberties is accurate so long as you agree that A: America's just as bad or even worse on some issues, offsetting those where the American Constitution has actually guaranteed its citizens superior natural rights, and B: changes to China's government have to be demanded from and earned by Chinese citizens; America can't imperialistically demand the Chinese to adopt their 'freedoms' without provocation or a jus ad bellum and call that an authentic or meaningful outcome.

As American citizens, however, (and/or European and/or Canadian citizens) we're in a far better position to demand and achieve change in our own political systems, as doing so would not superimpose our will in violation of ideal IR norms.

...Dammit, if this keeps up I'm going to have to bust out all my Chinese History and Chinese Law notes.

Agreed on both counts though you'd need to tell me where we are worse and where we ran people over with tanks and than on a big anniversary of this running over of people by tanks had the entire area filled with people holding open umbrellas when it was not raining at all.
t
I would actually just like to see us stop playing world police considering the amount of flack we get for trying.

...Every time an American brings this up you know it's the ultimate in stupid shit to say, right?
Hey, I know: The nation with 100% of its lands not belonging to the native culture but rather being wrongfully appropriated from its natives by military force should lecture the nation with a small portion of land wrongfully appropriated -- albeit far better and historically murky gray-area political claims to said land -- about how wrong it is to forcibly invade and occupy land!

You do realize this makes up like 100% of World History and is not limited to just China and the US right?

What happened to finding things that are good about this country? I want it back on track dammit!

[Solid Snake]

You do realize this makes up like 100% of World History and is not limited to just China and the US right?

No
NO
NO
Literally
Earlier
In the post preceding that one
I explicitly explain
Why that isn't
ALJFLKEDJFkwa9iru908a2uiohkjhdlkjASHFUOKWEu#yr*&#KJASDFKAHF

[Loyal]

What happened to finding things that are good about this country? I want it back on track dammit! In the context of a forum high on disillusionment with the United States (perhaps none moreso than its own citizens) and even higher on general tension vis a vis recent events, you making this thread is basically plopping down a landmine in front of yourself, continuing to walk forward, and then asking where your legs have gone and when you'll be getting them back.

This thread is exactly where it was going to be from the beginning and everyone but the guy who stepped on the landmine could see it coming from the start.

No
NO
NO
Literally
Earlier
In the post preceding that one
I explicitly explain
Why that isn't
ALJFLKEDJFkwa9iru908a2uiohkjhdlkjASHFUOKWEu#yr*&#K JASDFKAHF See this is what I was talking about before.

[Grimpond]

DOn't be like jagos and aero, where you go through the thread ignoring everyone making their points

[Arcanum]

Guys Snake broke again. I'm not chipping in for the mechanic this time.

[RobinStarwing]

No
NO
NO
Literally
Earlier
In the post preceding that one
I explicitly explain
Why that isn't
ALJFLKEDJFkwa9iru908a2uiohkjhdlkjASHFUOKWEu#yr*&#KJASDFKAHF

I had just finished and posted that after you posted yours. I am just nwo beyond even caring anymore and want to move back to the original topic.

Because you see...I NEVER want to revisit that very poor choice in words again however you and Kim seem intent on riding in on your intellectual white high horses. All a glitter in your vanity armor of white knight defender of everything that you see as just and rightous and expect me to let you talk.

Well guess what, I will let you as while I disagree with you, I can't stop you. No-one can but yourselves. So go ahead thinking me a racist based on what are slips of the tongue or based on MY experiences with other people as a whole. You get too as that is what is the First Amendment is about, Freedom of Speech. Another great thing about this country, you get to sound as stupid and wrong as you want and nobody gets to stop you for doing so.

Discussion over. I have not taken the classes nor do I want too. I don't got the money, time, nor ability to put up with it these days.

[Bells]

Guys Snake broke again. I'm not chipping in for the mechanic this time.

Some duct tape and cookie dough should suffice this time...

[Solid Snake]

Because you see...I NEVER want to revisit that very poor choice in words again however you and Kim seem intent on riding in on your intellectual white high horses. All a glitter in your vanity armor of white knight defender of everything that you see as just and rightous and expect me to let you talk.


...Oh my God.

I am Arin in this video right now. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omLve_vezbA)

[Grimpond]

I had just finished and posted that after you posted yours. I am just nwo beyond even caring anymore and want to move back to the original topic.

Because you see...I NEVER want to revisit that very poor choice in words again however you and Kim seem intent on riding in on your intellectual white high horses. All a glitter in your vanity armor of white knight defender of everything that you see as just and rightous and expect me to let you talk.

Well guess what, I will let you as while I disagree with you, I can't stop you. No-one can but yourselves. So go ahead thinking me a racist based on what are slips of the tongue or based on MY experiences with other people as a whole. You get too as that is what is the First Amendment is about, Freedom of Speech. Another great thing about this country, you get to sound as stupid and wrong as you want and nobody gets to stop you for doing so.

Discussion over.

We're basing these assumptions on all your posts and all your "talks" in the chat.

EDIT: also you're kind of off on the first amendment.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[RobinStarwing]

We're basing these assumptions on all your posts and all your "talks" in the chat.

EDIT: also you're kind of off on the first amendment.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

That's not news. I know why you all think it. I've just given up trying to clarify myself as it just gets twisted.

Also, please cite the specific examples you are citing for this thread please. It's 1:30 in the morning here.

[Solid Snake]

Robin: "Then why does China try to steal so much from the US and other Western Nations?"
Note: (Can't possibly be referencing merely the Chinese government with this sentiment as it doesn't fit with his argument, the Chinese political structures 'borrow' comparatively little from America and more from Civil Law European countries, and Robin happens to believe that China should borrow MORE from America in terms of governance. That direct quote IS RACIST. It's absolutely untrue and a ludicrous generalization.)

People: Stop being racist, Robin!

Robin: I hate the Chinese government, not its people! Here are more reasons why America is great and better than China!!!

Me: Let's assume that's true. Allow me to write a lengthy, reasonable post debunking some of the Westphalian political foundations, undermine that flawed position and let's have a well-reasoned, nuanced discussion!

Robin: Fuck that I'm going to ignore nearly everything you typed and illegitimately demonize a government I don't seem to know very much about!

Me: Please stop ignoring things I'm writing, and also please articulate exactly what you do not know or may erroneously believe about the Chinese government so I can correct assumptions you made that may be incorrect!!!

Robin: STOP BEING A WHITE KNIGHT AND ALSO I AM NOT INTERESTED IN HAVING A SUBSTANTIVE DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO INSULT YOU, INSULT THE CHINESE AND I HAVE A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO SAY ALL THE STUPID THINGS I WANT

Me: AKLSjfdklsafjakjfioawetoywayr98#**#%Hjhs28937@#&$*#

...and thats when Snake mind broke

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

McDonald's (Fuck Yeah!)
Wal-Mart (Fuck Yeah!)
The Gap (Fuck Yeah!)
Baseball (Fuck Yeah!)
The NFL (Fuck Yeah!)
Rock N' Roll (Fuck Yeah!)
Starbucks (Fuck Yeah!)
Disneyworld (Fuck Yeah!)
Porno (Fuck Yeah!)
Valium (Fuck Yeah!)
Reeboks (Fuck Yeah!)
Fake Tits (Fuck Yeah!)
Sushi (Fuck Yeah!)
Taco Bell (Fuck Yeah!)
Rodeos (Fuck Yeah!)
Bed, Bath and Beyond (Fuck yeah..Fuck Yeah)
Liberty (Fuck Yeah!)
White Slips (Fuck Yeah!)
The Alamo (Fuck Yeah!)
Band-aids (Fuck Yeah!)
Las Vegas (Fuck Yeah!)
Christmas (Fuck Yeah!)
Immigrants (Fuck Yeah!)
Popeyes (Fuck Yeah!)
Democrats (Fuck Yeah!)
Republicans (..Fuck Yeah..Fuck Yeah)

That about covers the bases!

[Solid Snake]

So go ahead thinking me a racist based on what are slips of the tongue or based on MY experiences with other people as a whole

"Don't believe I'm a racist just because I am stereotyping more than a billion people of an ethnic origin, by my own admission, based on MY negative personal experiences with them."
Oh my fucking
I don't
Do you even
I can't
Racism is literally defined as
Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

[RobinStarwing]

Thanks for the effort Skweeb but I doubt even that could save this thread at this point. I just fucking give up. I'm regretting making this shitpile of a thread now.

[PyrosNine]

The moral of the story is that China isn't a giant Commie Reich hellhole ruled by the Ghost of Chairman Mao, there are many benefits of living in America, and that people can still live within the boundaries of a nation and still consider themselves asAnti-nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nationalism) as all get out.

A well worded, clarified response can't be made in a kneejerk reactionary post at midnight in the country you live in that you are attacking and/or defending, and any reasonable and articulate response written with precision takes time and a clear head. If somebody disagrees with you, take the time to consider why they disagree with you, and consider if some of their points may possess some points that may be true, if not wholly. Consider the intent of their disagreement versus the effect that may arise from poor word choice and ill logic. Then consider your own argument, make at least a generous effort to find any flaws in your own word choice, logic, and previous arguments made.

Concede your own errors, concede where your opponent is correct, or where you can see what they meant versus what they said, clarify your opponent's own argument in terms as you understand it, and then submit your well worded, labored reply. The force of the effort alone can make even crappy arguments sound better than a lazy one, and if you believe that your argument is a worthy one, then it is worthy of the effort being put in it.

And if your opponent hits you with one, rise to the challenge and try to match him.

If the response is lacking (Nuh-uh!), or merely a repetition of previous points, or you feel that no amount of words will change his mind, then realize that any further time and effort will be wasted, and simply say "Fine, we disagree." and stop posting. End it there, be brave enough to risk being called a coward or the loser of the argument by the immature, and just stop posting and not beat the god damn thread to death!

I swear to god, all I would have to do to get a 20 page thread would be to start one off with an offhand "All mexicans are lazy" joke and watch the shitstorm. An extra 20 pages if I add on "Especially the lesbian ones." This place is becoming every trollbait and flamer's wet dream. White Knights, Templars, and Bloody Peasants!

Grandmaster McSkweeb can tell when to shut up and be on topic, and so can you!

[Solid Snake]

I swear to god, all I would have to do to get a 20 page thread would be to start one off with an offhand "All mexicans are lazy" joke and watch the shitstorm. An extra 20 pages if I add on "Especially the lesbian ones."

Or you could just
Maybe quite possibly
NOT attempt a racist or homophobic 'joke?'
Oh no wait
The "white knights" upon their noble steeds of basic courtesy and human decency
Sayin y'know maybe we shouldn't joke about that shit
We must be the problems, with our '20 pages' of condemnations of bigotry
WHY can't we just take a joke?????

[Bells]

Or you could stop being such a blatant Flamming Troll Knight.

The good thing is that we have options...

'MERICA!

[Solid Snake]

Or you could stop being such a blatant Flamming Troll Knight.

The good thing is that we have options...

'MERICA!

I'll stop being a 'Knight' when you stop trolling with your asinine levels of bigotry, Bells. Then we could have nice pleasant substantive conversations! Instead of y'know, you or Robin behaving like bigoted, entitled jerks and then whining when your poorly rationalized hatred is called out for what it is.

[RobinStarwing]

Let's just end this thread.

[Marc v4.0]

Nah, let's keep pointing out how terrible some bigoted, irrational, unapproachable people are and how they are constantly bringing down any attempts at rational conversation or progression of NPF using tried and true methods of being complete shitheels.

I think that would be much better for all of us, for NPF as a whole, than just sweep it all under another rug. Really, they're starting to bulge in an unsightly manner by this point.

[Arcanum]

Or you could just
Maybe quite possibly
NOT attempt a racist or homophobic 'joke?'
Oh no wait
The "white knights" upon their noble steeds of basic courtesy and human decency
Sayin y'know maybe we shouldn't joke about that shit
We must be the problems, with our '20 pages' of condemnations of bigotry
WHY can't we just take a joke?????

Snake. Snake you just proved Pyros's point.

Let's just end this thread.

But it's been so entertaining!

[Solid Snake]

Snake. Snake you just proved Pyros's point.


Or maybe I'd rather be part of a community where a member of a historically oppressed ethnic group such as the Han Chinese or an oppressed minority in the LGBT community KNEW I'd be willing to throw out Walls of Sanity in their defense the minute a bigot started saying offensive shit?

[Arcanum]

The point being if someone where to make a bigoted statement with the intent to troll he could easily keep the troll train going for dozens and dozens of posts because a lot of people would keep sticking their hand in the mouse trap.

It is a good thing that there are so many people on this forum that call out bigoted statements.

It is not a good thing how fast these kinds of arguements escalate.

[Satan's Onion]

...

I swear to god, all I would have to do to get a 20 page thread would be to start one off with an offhand "All mexicans are lazy" joke and watch the shitstorm. An extra 20 pages if I add on "Especially the lesbian ones." This place is becoming every trollbait and flamer's wet dream. White Knights, Templars, and Bloody Peasants!

"We-ell, I'm not actually making this stupid trolling asshole joke, but let me make this stupid trolling asshole joke"

Or you could stop being such a blatant Flamming Troll Knight.

The good thing is that we have options...

'MERICA!

"Clearly I'm the more mature one for sticking to my terrible opinions and refusing to engage with other people who point out how terrible they are, and you guys are a bunch of white knight social-justice warriors for getting all wound up about my terrible opinions. God, you guys, what's your problem?"

Just a general FYI, y'all: regardless of whether someone's sincere in their awful opinions or if they're just posting awful opinions to get a rise out of people, the effect is the same. And if other people, who have tried engaging with those opinions nicely in the past, get frustrated because all they get out of it is more of the same obtuse bullshit, well, I'm not gonna side with the people who suddenly get all "well, at least I'm not the one losing my cool over here, jeez, I'm just expressing an opinion, gawd".

I'm closing this shitshow, and y'all should watch this space in case we should decide that further action is warranted ehh, I'm tired of waiting, it's ban-Christmas for Pyros, Bells, and Robin for a few weeks, unless some other staff member wants to make that shorter or longer.

Christ almighty.

[shiney]

My personal take is, in the future, how about before we get to the point of dogpiling on shitposts, we just not let the situation get worse and get the thread closed. This thread was mad trolled, including by myself, and was a great example of exactly how big of cynical dicks we can all be. I think it would have been better for the community overall to have just avoided this instead of creating the huge shitfest that we so eagerly did.

Nothing can excuse bigotry of any kind, and I've learned a lot about my own presentation of an argument and the harsh realities that people experience when they are victims of discrimination, but it doesn't mean that we should have literally created an antagonistic atmosphere. Unfortunately trolling goes both ways. There is a time and place for an argument regarding the ability to "teach" some people and/or their refusal to learn, but I feel like the entirety of this thread and its outcome was a missed opportunity for every single person (again myself included) to be a bigger person.

My $0.02.