"Vaccinations Are Good Things" or "Why Seil Is Going To Bust A Nut"

[Seil]

So hey, because I was recently accepted to college in the Care Aide program, that means that for part of the course (a few months) I'll be placed in a nursing home or private residence. That means that I need to get vaccinations. Recently, a friend on FaceBook posted this article:

3 reasons why medicinal chemist doesn’t vaccinate (http://rawforbeauty.com/blog/medicinal-chemist-gives-3-reasons-why-he-doesnt-vaccinate.html)

Which I stopped reading after they called the opposing side "argumentative apes." But much like Jenny McCarthy claiming vaccinations gave her son autism (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/07/jenny-mccarthys-dangerous-views.html), the "Medicinal Chemist" is wrong.

Let's break it down - a vaccine is

vaccine
?vaksi?n,-?n/
noun
Medicine
noun: vaccine; plural noun: vaccines

1. an antigenic substance prepared from the causative agent of a disease or a synthetic substitute, used to provide immunity against one or several diseases.

The purpose of a vaccine is to trigger your body to recognize and attack foreign cells. That's pretty much it. You're training your body to more quickly recognize, say, TB, and either break it down or secrete it. Why are we doing this? I would hope that the answer is obvious. It makes it harder for us to become sick. That doesn't mean that we become immune. It just makes it harder for us to catch tuberculosis or measles. There are some people who can not get vaccinated. That's okay - because if those people around that person are at lower risk of getting sick, that person is too.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/immune_zpsa44b27d8.jpg

So please, ladies and gentleman; if you need a flu shot this season, don't buy into any malarkey of "Vaccinations do more harm than good. (http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html)" They really don't (http://www.babble.com/baby/11-myths-about-vaccines/).

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

I and the rest of my family are unable to get flu shots. We get a large range of allergic reactions ranging from bad headaches to hives and shit like that.

We deal with it the old fashioned way: get sick, fight it off, develop super powers, etc.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

Anti-vaccination propaganda is bad.

Richard Baseheart is good.

[akaSM]

Because a random person obviously knows more than people who actually work in a given area ^_^

[Flarecobra]

Anti-vaccination propaganda is bad.

Richard Baseheart is good.

Anyone else read that in Gypsy's voice?


And I'm all for vaccinations. Kept me well when a wave of flu went through my unit when I was in the military, because I got mine handled early, just to get it out of the way.

[Aldurin]

I personally don't go out for the flu shot, but that's mainly just stubbornness and relying on the fact that I only really get sick about twice a year. It's definitely a good thing that has saved many lives, and whatever malpractice that has happened with vaccines is something that our technology level today is able to prevent (obviously if you don't break the DNA within the virus' shell for the vaccination then it's going to give you the actual disease, but we have the means to do it right consistently so it's mainly misinformed paranoia at this point).

[Seil]

Someone is arguing with me on Facebook. Just a sec... Here's their counter argument:

e7Hhgaf3Co0

Vaccination causes asthma
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/07/earlier-vaccina.html

15 Science Journal Links Proving Asthma, Allergy, & Autism Links to Vaccines
http://gaia-health.com/.../15-science-journal-links.../

The culprit behind asthma and allergies: vaccination
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/hancock1.html

Vaccine-induced asthma
http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content...

Polio Was NOT Eradicated By The Vaccine
From Patricia Doyle, PhD
http://rense.com/general92/polio.htm

Vaccinated children have up to 500% more disease than unvaccinated children
http://www.realfarmacy.com/vaccinated-children-have-up.../

Scientific Evidence Suggests The Vaccine-Autism Link Can No Longer Be Ignored - 22 Studies Showing That Vaccines Cause Autism
http://www.collective-evolution.com/.../22-medical.../

Healthy 7 Year Old Girl Dies in Mother’s Arms After Flu Shot
http://vactruth.com/2012/01/14/dies-in-mothers-arms/

Swine Flu Vaccine Linked with Risk of Paralysis Disorder
http://news.yahoo.com/swine-flu-vaccine-linked-small-risk...

Two-month-old boy dies after vaccination
http://www.hindustantimes.com/.../tw.../article1-932656.aspx

Vaccination Causes Diabetes
http://gaia-health.com/.../2.../vaccination-causes-diabetes/

Four-day-old baby dies after vaccination
http://www.deccanherald.com/.../four-day-old-baby-dies.html

Courts quietly confirm MMR Vaccine causes Autism
http://www.whiteoutpress.com/.../courts-quietly-confirm.../

Whooping Cough Outbreak Involved 90% Vaccinated Kids
http://www.activistpost.com/.../whooping-cough-outbreak...

Do vaccines cause autism? Highly informative video narrated by Rob Schneider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_IaLHwgAQ

How Vaccines Harm Child Brain Development - Dr Russell Blaylock MD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

30 Years of Secret Official Transcripts Show UK Government Experts Cover Up Vaccine Hazards To Sell More Vaccines And Harm Your Kids
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/.../government.../

Mortality Rate 50% Higher with More Vaccine Doses
http://gaia-health.com/.../medical-childrens-psych.../

Now what happens if you take a very small baby and inject mercury?
By Boyd Haley Ph.D.
http://www.whale.to/v/haley3.html

Hepatitis B Vaccine Highly Linked to Sudden Infant Death -
Dr. Mercola
http://articles.mercola.com/.../us-government-concedes...

HPV Gardasil Vaccine Proves Lethal - 47 Girls Now Dead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4pfEcjyyrU

Baby Dies after Routine Vaccination for Hep B, Polio, and DPT
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-dies-after.../

Five-Month-Old Baby Dies Just Days After 8 Vaccinations
http://www.activistpost.com/.../five-month-old-baby-dies...

Leading Vaccine Doctor States Cancer Linked to Polio Vaccine -
Dr. Maurice Hilleman made astounding revelations in an interview that was cut from The Health Century -- the admission that Merck drug company vaccines had been injecting dangerous viruses into people worldwide.
http://articles.mercola.com/.../leading-vaccine-doctor...

Let's start with the cheloid treatment. What does the American Cancer Society say about it?

This substance may not have been tested to find out how it interacts with medicines, foods, or dietary supplements. Even though some reports of interactions and harmful effects may be published, full studies of interactions and effects are not often available. Because of these limitations, any information on ill effects and interactions below should be considered incomplete.

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that chelation therapy is a safe treatment for any type of cancer. Chelation therapy may produce toxic effects, including kidney damage, irregular heart beat, and swelling of the veins. It may also cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and temporary lowering of blood pressure. Since the therapy removes minerals from the body, there is a risk of developing low calcium levels (hypocalcemia) and bone damage. Chelation therapy may also impair the immune system and decrease the body's ability to produce insulin. People may also feel pain at the site of the EDTA injection. Chelation therapy may be dangerous in people with kidney disease, liver disease, or bleeding disorders. Women who are pregnant or breastfeeding should not use this method.

Chelation therapy is often given along with large doses of vitamins and other minerals, which may actually contribute to the processes that produce dangerous free radicals in the body. Loss of zinc can also lead to mutations in cells. For this reason, chelation therapy may actually increase the risk of cancer.

The possible interactions between chelation therapy and prescription or over-the-counter medicines are not entirely known.

Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences.

Oh. Oh dear.

The original Manitoba study (https://umanitoba.ca/.../WFP_Asthma_and_vaccines_Jan_2008...) which isn't linked in the Age Of Autism article (which actually constantly claims that vaccines cause asthma) does mention that there is a link between the two.

However, the article makes a case that children receive vaccinations before their immune systems are fully developed. She actually states:

Kozyrskyj said she is “pro-vaccination” and noted the safety and effectiveness of vaccines has been studied for years. “It’s not an alarm bell,” she said. “We have many years of research on these vaccines and I would say the benefits, by far, outweigh the risks.”

[Aerozord]

As someone with aspergers anti-vaccination arguements always fill me with bottomless rage, not only at the misinformation being tossed around but also at the implication that because I have aspergers I am "lesser".

The best anti-anti-vaccination argument I have ever heard is simply this. Lets assume all their claims are true, all of them. The number that experience these negative side effects pale in comparison to the number of lives saved by vaccinations. Before vaccinations we had death tolls from the flu was in the millions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Pandemics), now its so low calling it an epidemic is more like media sensationalizing than legit news. 1,800 over two years? You are more likely to die driving to work than the flu. Keep in mind that just the flu, which is the most minor and least lethal thing you get vaccinated for

[Azisien]

I've been a part of a lot of pro-vaccine/anti-vaccine arguments on Facebook recently. The issue is really flaring up this year, at least from my own personal observation.

On some level I'm okay with not trusting "the Man" because let's face it, the people in power pull a lot of bullshit. I honestly think that's where a lot of this suspicion comes from. We simply don't trust the people in charge, whoever they are, wherever they are, and whatever they do.

One local radio host for one of my city's largest radios claims directly that the measles vaccine gave his kid autism. According to him, something along the lines of "My kid was perfectly happy and healthy going into the shot, and minutes after receiving the shot, stopped laughing or crying or playing or baby-talking. That very same day my kid was showing signs on full-blown autism."

Hard to argue, that.

I suppose I'm a silent vaccine success story, since I got all scheduled vaccinations from birth to now and I'm infrequently sick, not mercury/lead poisoned, etc... But to an anti-vacciner, I suppose I just "got lucky" or something.

I admit I have not got the flu shot before. I tend not to get the flu, and what little colds and seasonal illnesses I get come pretty much exclusively from retail work. Pretty soon I'll be coming into frequent contact with elderly (85+) though, so I'm hopping on that train.

[Amake]

My mom believed that I got Asperger's from being vaccinated, and that I resented her for it. It would be fair to say this utterly unsupportable luddite paranoid conspiracy garbage contributed to her death, in that we weren't close enough for her to tell me that she was hurt when she called me the day before she died. So maybe I'm biased. But I think vaccines are great. Immeasurable benefits and zero measurable downsides. Kind of like the invention of the wheel, only scary if you're afraid of needles.

[rpgdemon]

Even if it were true: Would people seriously rather their kids die, than their kids have Asperger's? If so, these people should not be responsible for children.

[synkr0nized]

I am still wondering why being angry about vaccination arguments is going to lead / has led to Seil having an orgasm.

[Azisien]

It's one of the more recent, and excellent, symptoms of the flu vaccine.

[Aerozord]

One local radio host for one of my city's largest radios claims directly that the measles vaccine gave his kid autism. According to him, something along the lines of "My kid was perfectly happy and healthy going into the shot, and minutes after receiving the shot, stopped laughing or crying or playing or baby-talking. That very same day my kid was showing signs on full-blown autism."

Hard to argue, that.

very easily, thats not autism.

Biggest thing is autism and related conditions are caused by the brain allocating resources away from communication center of the brain and developing analytical and cognitive side. Its why people with autism tend to display what neurotypicals would call an uneven intellect. So he has no idea what autism is.

Even ignoring that, minutes? You think you can have that dramatic of an effect in minutes? Minutes isn't even enough time for the blood to cycle the vaccination through the kidney and liver let alone rewrite vast swaths of the childs neural chemestry

[Azisien]

You don't need to convince me, you need to convince people that don't want to be convinced.

[Aerozord]

You don't need to convince me, you need to convince people that don't want to be convinced.

you cant convince conspiracy theorists. Their belief isn't based on facts, or even pride, its an outlet for their anger. Vaccines aren't exactly a drain on the wallet or even all that inconvenient to get. I dont think its paranoia either as there are several other outlets for that.

Autism is genetic, you cant get mad at genetics, unless you count parents getting mad at themselves but thats not gonna happen. Its comforting for them to point at something external and say "this did it, if we get rid of this autism will go away." People like quick solutions and an enemy to fight against.

The problem is deeper, its societies views on autism thats the real issue. The fact its viewed as an illness to be destroyed, as something horrible to befall a person. Not to mention those poor children, continually told by their own parents "there is something wrong with you. You are lesser than other children".

Whether or not vaccines are safe is not the issue, it never was. The fact the mainstream views autism as a plague and obsessively seeks for ways to destroy all neurologies that differ from theirs, is.

[Amake]

Well yeah. But the more people accept that vaccinations have nothing to do with it, the closer they get to accepting that neuropsychiatric conditions are a part of our world and won't go away, I mean, you can only ignore the relationship of cause and effect so long. And from there we can go on to look for ways that autism etc can benefit people. Make man's ability to adapt to and utilize the conditions of his existence work for us. I think that's going to be more effective than advocating equality and tolerance, like we're already seeing companies employing Aspies specifically for the skillsets we commonly have.

I am feeling cynical today but I think we're going to be able to treat each other as equals once we have the means to fit everyone into their right field of specialization and make a great machine of a society with every cog in place.

[Aerozord]

lets put this in perspective, as has been stated in this thread before. According to these people polio is preferable to autism, hepatitis is preferable to autism, etc etc.

Even if they are convinced that vaccinations are 100% safe this wont solve the underlining prejudice that caused this. Will only have them go after some other target and last thing we want is for these people to discover the actual cause.

[Magus]

Why is it in these arguments vaccines only cause autism, anyway? I should be able to claim vaccines cause all kinds of disorders. I have just as much proof as the anti-vax people! (i.e. none)

[Azisien]

Actually I put more emphasis on autism in my post related to vaccines than people did in some of the arguments I've had this year around the beginning of flu shot season. Admittedly it is often mentioned, and it is one of the relative enigmas driving some paranoia. As one of Seil's links (I forget which one) points out, autism is not very well understood. Certainly we know a lot more information about it now than even 10 years ago due to good research, but I think there's a little bit of "fear the unknown destroyer of children" thing going on. As pointed out, this is an insane outlook.

But no, I think some of the underlying problems in anti-vaccine viewpoints are even more worrying. I should honestly compile a transcript of the kind of shit I was seeing on Facebook recently. Just plain sociopathy, really. Stuff like "vaccines are for people with weak immune systems" and "if they can't fight off the flu, they shouldn't be alive anyway." "I grew up playing outside and eating dirt and such and my grandparents and parents and I were never vaccinated and we never get sick." "We're making ourselves weaker as a species by using vaccines." And more.

Finally I'll add that on top of all that these people (and actually, probably people on most sides of the debate) just lack a basic understanding of biology, immunology, etc. By no means do I expect everyone to be an expert, and heck I'm not, but if you don't even know that bacteria and viruses are different things, I've little hope for their understanding of the human immune system and vaccines.

[Magus]

That one with them saying they "we used to eat dirt and we never get sick" i.e. them now as adults in the present, is really the dumbest one, as it completely misunderstands why these vaccines are given to children: TO COMBAT CHILDHOOD DISEASES. I guess children should just sack up and shrug off that whooping cough by eating some dirt.

[Aerozord]

oh the anti-antibiotic argument. I guess they dont bother me as much because there is logic there, admittedly its an overly Darwinist survival of the fittest mindset but I can understand it.

As someone with a shred of empathy I dont support it, but I can see a rational mind coming to that conclusion. Not an altruistic mind, but a sane one

[Seil]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/bdc9f6cbb2d0ea27dd1cf81434509887529e9417d2641417f6 26e6b365543e46_zpsce6615dd.jpg (http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vqjb0)

[Aerozord]

just tossing this out there, they dont use mercury anymore anyways. Its been so long since they have most people on this forum never even had a vaccination with it.

This is all going off memory of course but I do know most anti-vaccination 'facts' are pretty dated.

[phil_]

Kind of like the invention of the wheel, only scary if you're afraid of needles.With modern technology, they can now make wheels with absolutely zero needles. Living in the future!

[Magus]

Maybe eggs cause autism?! DUN DUN DUNNNNN

[batgirl]

My opinion on vaccines:

They're great. Modern medicine has come a long way since the days of cupping, leeches and cocaine toothache drops.

As someone who is on the front lines of getting exposed to all sorts of nasties, I make it a point to ask all the moms and dads of my pediatric patients whether their child is up to date with vaccinations. Don't forget, I'm taking your child to a hospital, the breeding grounds of horrible germs like mrsa, cdiff and all sorts of delicious germies. If a parent tells me that they don't vaccinate their kids (and yes, this has happened), the kid gets a mask on their face, and I get a mask on my face, all before they get into my truck.

Why?

Kid A, let's call him NoVax, is not up to date. His parents call the ambulance because little NoVax has a fever, aches, chills, rash and a cold. NoVax gets into my ambulance and coughs all over it, leaving his delicious measles all over my truck. I take NoVax to the hospital and even though I've thoroughly cleaned my stretcher, my truck still has measles in the back. Next call is for Kid B, CantVax. Little CantVax is immuno-compromised and can't be vaccinated. He gets into my ambulance and sucks in all the wonderful measles that NoVax left over. Delicious.

Now, I make sure that my ass is all filled up with vaccines on schedule. If I needed convincing, which I don't, the fact that I was exposed to WHOOPING COUGH 3 TIMES THIS YEAR seals the deal. Did I get sick? Nope, because I have the vaccine.

Now herein lies my complaint, my one silly complaint.

Choice.

Do I think parents should have the right to choose whether to vaccinate their kids? Yes. However, I do think that they should be given all the information for AND against each argument before they make that decision.

I am forced by my job every year to get the flu shot as a mandatory thing. If I don't, I have to wear a surgical mask anytime I'm in contact with a patient, which is all the fucking time. Now, the only problem with this is that I've been in EMS for 9 years now, I've only been forced to get the flu shot for the past 4, and when did I ever get the flu? Every time I get the flu shot. Seriously, I never got the flu before that, and I was in contact with sick people all the time. My sister even had the swine flu and I didn't get that. But I get the flu shot now and 2 days after the shot, I'm down with the flu. Full on, puking-fevering-chilling-aching flu.I get that I'm in the "high risk" category, but I'm also an adult who knows her own limitations. If I choose to not get the flu shot and then get the flu, guess what? I'm not going to work. I just think that I should have the right to choose is all.

[Azisien]

That last part right there dissuades *many* people from getting the flu shot. People that were on the fence about it, got it, and got the flu (or flu-like symptoms identical to the flu), tend to stop getting the flu shot. It doesn't make convincing people any easier.

[Aerozord]

Wow batgirl, 9 years? I remember you talking about your EMS training, How time flies

Thing with choice is when it affects others. Children dont get a choice, and its a fine line between finding preventative measures unneeded and endangerment. While I doubt anyone would say that as an adult you shouldn't be able to do whatever the hell you want, hard when it comes to kids.

The issue I have isn't that they don't vaccinate their kids, I think its unwise but as there is no direct risk I feel its a parents choice. Contrasting to giving a child an antibiotic where parents choice has direct and immediate effect in which chase they shouldn't get a choice. My issue is the misinformation. There is some risk to vaccinations, this is fact, this is a fair argument. But its not the one they are making. The only risk of vaccinations is the weakened virus itself, not all the other stuff in it. Stuff that is in fact designed to lessen the risk of the virus.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

I've already posted about my allergic reactions to flu shots and all that, so that's a moot point.

What I dislike about flu vaccinations specifically is that it gets treated like the end all be all solution. It may help, but like batgirl alluded to: it has a good chance of not working at all because the flu virus has such a fuckin crazy mutation rate. essentially one is getting vaccinations for a strain of influenza that could very well never exist anymore.

[Aerozord]

They are working on that vaccination that targets a base protein in all strains of the flu. If perfected it would mean one shot, ever.

[Magus]

I've already posted about my allergic reactions to flu shots and all that, so that's a moot point.

What I dislike about flu vaccinations specifically is that it gets treated like the end all be all solution. It may help, but like batgirl alluded to: it has a good chance of not working at all because the flu virus has such a fuckin crazy mutation rate. essentially one is getting vaccinations for a strain of influenza that could very well never exist anymore.

I've never had the flu-like symptoms problem so I personally get a flu shot. Really if all the people who don't have the symptoms get one, that's probably a pretty good percentage of the population that isn't experiencing side-effects. Unfortunately a lot of those people do not. Also while it's true that it only covers a percentage of the given flu viruses that year, from what I understand they are usually the most common ones for that year.

Also in the cases of really virulent/powerful ones like the swine flu it makes sense for everyone who can get vaccinated (who isn't allergic to it) to do so, because the 2 days of flu-like symptoms is better than dying or being a vector for it.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

yeah. being allergic to it sucks. last time I got sick was about two years ago and it hit me like a sack of bricks. was out for the count for two straight weeks. vomit, explosive pinatubo level shits, migrains, enough lung butter to spread across a few loaves of bread..the works.

I get Captain Trips grade flu bugs. feels bad, bro.

[akaSM]

I got 5 shots a couple days ago for things including influenza, hepatitis B, measles, rubella, tetanus, diphteria and against pneumococcus.

Y'all are a bunch of babies.

I didn't really feel THAT bad because, I was sick when I had the shots so, who knows if I actually got any nasties thanks to the vaccines...OTOH, I cannot really remember if vaccination is a good idea when you're sick and have fever... inb4 mexican medicine kills me.

[batgirl]

You really really really shouldn't be getting any shot while sick, especially the flu shot.

Hope you paid up those life insurance premiums.

[Magus]

You really really really shouldn't be getting any shot while sick, especially the flu shot.

Hope you paid up those life insurance premiums.

You gotta learn to live on the edge. Besides if you have a cold you can't get the flu right it's like science

Key word is LIKE science...

[akaSM]

You really really really shouldn't be getting any shot while sick, especially the flu shot.

Hope you paid up those life insurance premiums.

Mexican medicine is serious business, not only are our best students the only ones to becone doctors; they're the only ones that survive.

OTOH, will I get awarded a Darwin Award if I die?

inb4 "did he died"