Is math real?

[Aerozord]

So I was feeling philosophical. Now there is no known answer to this question, but I wished to know what people thought.

Is "math" a fact of the universe or simply a thing humans invented to try and understand the universe? Do you think if we met an alien race our math would be the same? Does 2+2=4 because this is factual or because we humans have decreed four individual similar items grouped together are given a single value of four?

In many ways its a "if a tree falls in the forest" scenario. Would math still exist if we were not there to codify it?

[Krylo]

TbNymweHW4E

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

You have a tree, an apple falls from the tree, that means there's one apple beneath the tree. Another apple falls, now there are two apples beneath the tree.

Mathematics is simply assigning language to this and other concepts. To say that it wouldn't exist without them is like saying a river wouldn't exist if we didn't exist to call it a river.

[RobinStarwing]

I believe in Mathmagics and FRIENDSHIP!

OWUI3pPrH3Y

[phil_]

http://i.imgur.com/AMTmzjt.jpg

[Loyal]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/329ea881f41c0ce854b9e4a903a09789/tumblr_inline_ngw7akjR0e1rpf0sr.png

[Bard The 5th LW]

So I was feeling philosophical. Now there is no known answer to this question,

The answer is a resounding "Yeah".

[Aerozord]

Mathematics is simply assigning language to this and other concepts. To say that it wouldn't exist without them is like saying a river wouldn't exist if we didn't exist to call it a river.

That would mean math isn't empirical fact. Language is something humans created to describe what they are observing. "River" is an actual thing, it can be observed and interacted with. The word "river" is not. It has no meaning besides what we ascribe to it and could just as easily call it any number of other things. If math is a language we use to describe what we are observing than if there were no humans to say "there are two apples" than the concept of two wouldn't exist. A human had to codify that these two things were the same, that the state they exist in would add them together. There are only two "apples" because we humans decided to classify two different things as the same thing. What if the apple spontaneously turned into an orange. Is it still two? There are two things, but the things are more different. Could also say now there is only one, but if value is fact than you can make a definitive statement.

If you have an apple and an orange you can say it has a value of 2 (fruit), 1 (apple), 0 (hamsters), or some huge number if describing atoms. To reiterate its only "2" because you as a sentient being decided to make it "2". Going back to your river example. It being a river and not a lake or an ocean is human language. But it being a mass of liquid hydrodioxide is fact. Words are made up to describe things that are real. If math is language than it is just a made up thing to describe stuff we observe.

[edit] just saying this cause its the holidays. I'm not looking to fight and I dont know if people consider this antagonistic. I enjoy pondering these things and discussing them with others. Having my points challenged and doing the same to others. Spreading information and learning new stuff myself. This is simple fun to me and I hope its fun to others as well

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

That would mean math isn't empirical fact. Language is something humans created to describe what they are observing. "River" is an actual thing, it can be observed and interacted with. The word "river" is not. It has no meaning besides what we ascribe to it and could just as easily call it any number of other things. If math is a language we use to describe what we are observing than if there were no humans to say "there are two apples" than the concept of two wouldn't exist.

Mathematics are the things humans describe those concepts with, but the things that they describe are intrinsic. Fundamental. They don't go away or change just because they're inaccurately described.

You can call a flowing stretch of water a lake, instead of a river if you want, but it won't actually become a filled basin of water just because you do. Nor would it have not been either of those things had none of us ever existed to describe them as such. Even if you change the definitions and swap them around, the concepts those terms described aren't any different. Only the particulars of how human beings talked about them.
Whether or not there are humans around to describe the quantity of those apples, they remain. Whether or not someone is there to hear the tree falling, the impact still sends out a shock wave that could be heard if someone were present to interpret it.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

K-Resh pretty much hit the philosophical nail with the metaphorical hammer there; this is basically the tree falling in a forest question, and about as useful as. At the end of the day, we don't live in a universe where these things don't exist, or where humans don't exist to observe them. If we did, then nobody would be observing them, because they don't exist, and neither would the question. Might as well ask do colours exist, or are they only illusions found in the mind by interpreting waveforms.

Humans exist, we observe things, we name them, clarify them, ascribe them structure and meaning. If they don't exist we don't do that. A table is still a table no matter what language you use to name it. 5 + 5 of something is still ten whether you count in base 10 or binary. A hydrogen atom is still going to be composed of a proton and an electron no matter how much you philosophise over it.

[synkr0nized]

I thought, "I guess I should check NPF and see if anything interesting is happening over break."

I will take this thread as a sign that y'all are enjoying your libations and/or other substances over the holidays.

[RobinStarwing]

I thought, "I guess I should check NPF and see if anything interesting is happening over break."

I will take this thread as a sign that y'all are enjoying your libations and/or other substances over the holidays.

I'm doing my thing completely sober.

[McTahr]

Subject

Hm? (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1240066&postcount=1) Or, hm? (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1051573&postcount=1)

Both seem applicable contenders to me.

Edit: Amusingly, that first one is the day after 4/20.

And I'll approach this one as I did the others. Yes. In the same way that color exists, math exists. Math as a concept intrinsic to the universe does not exist, but the relationships inherent to particles in the world exist regardless of our observation and pronunciation as such.

The gravitational force equations apply whether we say what they are or not.
Electromagnetics apply regardless of whether we've written out Maxwell's equations or not.

The meat is there. The garnish is just something we added later for appearances.

[Marc v4.0]

Are feet shoes?

[Aerozord]

Might as well ask do colours exist, or are they only illusions found in the mind by interpreting waveforms.

Yea I mean what kind of guy would ask if color existed or not....
Hm? (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1240066&postcount=1)

:sweatdrop

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Half a bee, philosophically,
Must, ipso facto, half not be.
But half the bee has got to be
Vis a vis, its entity. D'you see?

But can a bee be said to be
Or not to be an entire bee
When half the bee is not a bee
Due to some ancient injury?

[Nique]

This is like the whole 'are you YOU' question.

The answer is yes. Unless it isn't, then you aren't.

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 AM ----------

Are feet shoes?

Man, feet are like, the shoes of your legs man.

[Aerozord]

This is like the whole 'are you YOU' question.



You are you of the present but not the you of the future or the you of the past.

[Nique]

That's convienient, since my consciousness is stuck in the present!

[McTahr]

Shoes are foot hats.
Gloves are hand booties.
Hats are head pants.
The world is broken.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

You are you of the present but not the you of the future or the you of the past.

This is actually quite true, as your cells die and are replaced, eventually every part of your physical being will no longer exists and a different being that just happens to have your memories takes your place.

I believe the bits of you that last the longest are your skeleton, which takes about 10 years to be fully replaced.

[Nique]

Does the so-called delusional perception of the persistent 'self' by virtue of it's very existence make it true? The mind boggles. And also Scrabbles. And sometimes even Pictionaries.

[MasterOfMagic]

This is actually quite true, as your cells die and are replaced, eventually every part of your physical being will no longer exists and a different being that just happens to have your memories takes your place.

I believe the bits of you that last the longest are your skeleton, which takes about 10 years to be fully replaced.
So if you had something metal embedded in you 15 years ago, is it more you than the rest of you? :3:

[mauve]

So if you had something metal embedded in you 15 years ago, is it more you than the rest of you? :3:

I have titanium staples in my lungs from my first lung surgery back when I was 17. That was... 11 years ago, so does that mean in 4 years I'll officially be some kind of reverse cyborg?

That's rad as fuck.

[MasterOfMagic]

I have titanium staples in my lungs from my first lung surgery back when I was 17. That was... 11 years ago, so does that mean in 4 years I'll officially be some kind of reverse cyborg?

That's rad as fuck.
You could be now, I just added 5 years to play it safe.

How does it feel to be so rad? You're titanium, baby.

[mauve]

So that makes me like... A living being that possessed a metal construct that has now regrown a living breathing form around it.


I'm not sure if I should use this newfound superhuman ability for good or evil. Am I Iron Man (Woman?) or some sort of magical cyborg overlord (over...lady?)?

Well, whatever I choose, it'll be awesome.

[Flarecobra]

So should we call you the Metal Mage? :P

[pochercoaster]

Welcome back, Master of Magic! :D How are you and the missus?

[MasterOfMagic]

So that makes me like... A living being that possessed a metal construct that has now regrown a living breathing form around it.
That's actually a neat concept, I wonder if anyone has used it in a story?

Welcome back, Master of Magic! How are you and the missus?
Oh we are fine. 2014 was kind of a rocky year, what with possums in our walls and my job starting to suck. But we've moved to a nicer place, and I'm hoping 2015 will work out a lot better for us. Hopefully you and everyone else is doing well too?

[Aerozord]

I have titanium staples in my lungs from my first lung surgery back when I was 17. That was... 11 years ago, so does that mean in 4 years I'll officially be some kind of reverse cyborg?

That's rad as fuck.

Under the literal definition of cyborg you were one the moment you had unnatural parts grafted onto you.

That is another topic. I forget the name of the thought experiment but it went like this, if you took a boat and over time replaced every single part of it. Is it the same boat?

[Sithdarth]

So I was pretty sure I remembered that the brain doesn't really grow new neurons and that it just changes connections. I did some double checking and it turns out while a good portion of the brain doesn't appear to replace neurons some areas do. Specifically the areas of the brain that deal with memory (especially long term memory) seem to generate new neurons pretty much daily.

This is of course highly suggestive that the generation of new neurons is central to the formation and retention of memories. There was at least one study linking decreased production of new neurons with memory issues. Originally I was going to say something about how your brain doesn't really replace itself so the consistency of identity isn't super surprising. However, now it seems like the areas of the brain most responsible for your sense of self (i.e. memories) actually do replace themselves. Which brings up all sorts of interesting questions about identity and memory and stuff.

Oh and except for certain areas like the outside of the cornea the cells of your eye don't get replaced. So most of your brain and eyes and probably your entire nervous system outside of your brain don't actually get replaced.

[Aerozord]

While true I understand due to atomic theory and quantum mechanics even if the cell is the same the atoms do over time get replaced.

[Sithdarth]

While true I understand due to atomic theory and quantum mechanics even if the cell is the same the atoms do over time get replaced.

I'm not quite sure why you would think this because it isn't true.

[phil_]

if you took a boat and over time replaced every single part of it. Is it the same boat?It's called the ship of Theseus. I found this out by copy-pasting the line quoted above with no edits into google. Top result was the wikipedia page for Ship of Theseus. I thought it was amusing that google could produce relevant results from what would, in most search engines, be garbage input, which is why I'm making this post at all.

[McTahr]

It's also the opening to John Dies at the End. (The Ship of Theseus conundrum.)

Also, one truism to life I have experienced as a physicist is that any time a non-scientist mentions quantum mechanics in conversation, you had absolutely better be ready to cringe. Hard.

Unless a chemical reaction or some sort of radioactive decay is occurring, atoms are staying in their respective molecules. (Quantum mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with it, aside from well, the basics/implications.)

[Aerozord]

obviously its the same ship because all of its atoms become quantum entangled with each other thanks to string theory as proposed by Einstein