Why I stopped watching porn

[tacticslion]

"Why I stopped watching porn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJ_QfP2mhU)"

While this isn't safe for work, I came across this today, and it's pretty great.

Here's the thing. I'm a Christian, as most of you know. I read the Bible. If anyone has ever believed that Christianity or the Bible is anti-sexuality, you're missing the Song of Solomon, or, as it's known in the Hebraic, Song of Songs. (You're also missing a huge number of other verses.)

Loving erotica, intimacy, beautiful sexuality and love are a fundamental part of what is important and good within the scriptures, meant to be celebrated and holy and enjoyed.

Sex: it's awesome.

(Incidentally, it's also how our species continues which, you know, is kind of important.)

With that said, I still find this video, which is not taken from a Conservative perspective, very profound and excellent. While I don't agree that absorbing specific media forces action, I do agree that media influences action, because it changes what is viewed as "normal" - and with increasing awareness of sexual issues and problems (ugh, that recent statistic in the News subforum is... awful...) I find this a compelling thing to contemplate and really dig into and think about.

It's one of the reasons that I always hesitate when people talk about the problems with displaying sexuality instead of violence. I tend to agree: showing people engaging in loving acts doesn't seem like it should be somehow more taboo than showing people engaged in violent action. However, I think one reason (certainly not the only, but I do think it is one) it so often comes across as worse is that it's so often handled so poorly, and so... grotesquely.

gRJ_QfP2mhU

On a related note, I am curious if there are any erotic stories or industries (outside of private creations or productions, or - much maligned as it is - fan fiction) that follow the idea of emotional safety in sexual intimacy. Anyone know of this kind of thing?

I'm genuinely curious what you guys think or know about. Let me know!

ALSO: IF YOU COME IN HERE TO INSULT OR BELITTLE OTHER HUMAN BEINGS FOR THEIR BELIEFS, WHETHER THEY AGREE WITH YOU, ME, OR OTHERS, LEAVE NOW. THIS IS NOT THAT DISCUSSION.

Whether you agree with me or not, I'd be interested in your input and reasoning. Politely, though, please!

[Menarker]

How specific would you define "private creations"? Because there are a few stories in my head (visual novels and manga mainly) that I imagine would qualify.

And yes, porn has a tendency to be displayed explotively, especially as far as the 'actors' involved are concerned. I'd imagine that with porn being regarded as a form of perversity in people, healthy and loving couple would be fearful of social scorn and retaliation if they put out a porn of themselves, even if the content is heartwarming. That is of course, assuming they aren't possessively protective of having their significant other being possibly used as masturbational activities by strangers. At the very worst, a significant other could be stalked and/or physically assaulted by someone who views the work and not be satisfied with that alone. Some people might use the porn as blackmail material to coerce one of the couple, lest the blackmailer expose it to the public, possibly more specifically to places of employment, social circles and places that the couple doesn't want exposed.
On the other hand, exploitive works are much easier to find because they are done by people who don't care about the public notice (or even revel in it), doing it for the sex or money, or because they are actually victims of people who trusted their videos to be kept secret but had their videos leaked by a vengeful or unfaithful lover (or hacked by someone else) by which at that point, it's becomes pretty much impossible to take back anymore.
There is also fact that protective acts such as the use of condoms seems to be largely absent in such works, seemingly promoting a high-risk/reward sexual fantasy, where STDs are mysteriously not a part of life.

In contrast with fictional animated/drawn works, it's easier (as far as I know anyhow) to depict a loving relationship due to the 'actors' involved being entirely fictional and having much less to worry about that sort of backlash (as opposed to real life actors with their bodies and faces that could be recognized outside of the work). There is also more time and emphasis on the story leading up to that point, so we become more emotionally invested in why they feel for each other. Most porn tends to be just the depiction of sex, while truly intimate work tends to recognize that real romance usually requires that certain investment in time, support and occasional emotional struggle and heart-ache. This would take much more time and work and you can't be sure that people looking for porn won't just skip straight to it, making the build-up effort mostly wasted if the porn was the only reason that draws people to view it. So porn tends to either be the key focus (and thus it becomes economical to make it the only bit), or it becomes tangential (but possibly still important) to the real core of the work, the relationship (with all its struggles and triumphs) between individuals. (I say individuals because romance does not usually exist in a vacuum of only the couple, but also involves the romantic rivals, their support/friends and that sort of thing)
Also, fictional works like manga tend to get away with depicting "loving relationships" in socially illegal and impractical/wishfulfilling but sexually titillating ways, like harem stories which begs you to entertain the protagonist being able to romantically handle multiple partners and having them be eventually accepting bigamy (officially illegal in most cultures) instead of becoming jealously possessive or leaving for other guys that'd be happy to have them as their one and only partner. Such plots also conveniently ignore the various practical costs such as trying to raise such a house-hold for the relationship/sex portion of the story. The groceries bills would be staggering for a harem scenario! Also, porns are likely done in multiple takes (taking the best of the batch of each cuts) to exaggarate things like the actor/lover's stamina or expertise, which I imagine rarely is that seamlessly done in one take in real life. Fumbles and screw-ups are part of the sexual experience in real life, people!

Another interesting side effect, is how some careers and jobs like teachers, celebrities to children-early teen shows/movies and such give extrascrutiny for viewing porn, (I mean the semi-socially acceptable sort. Child porn justly deserves that scrutiny) being in night-clubs and engaging in other questionable but legitimate adult activities during their off hours, as if the duties and requirement of your job applies off-hours even during your private time. TVtropes discussed this issue as well! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContractualPurity)

(And I'd take it as a personal favor if your response to me in particular focus more on the media aspect and secular matters as I'm a heavy misotheist and would almost surely be contrary to matters focusing on religion in any favorable light, but would like to engage in this discussion on the matter with a degree of cordial respect. I'll do the same in not bringing in and bashing religion, even though I feel it has some roots in why people treat porn the way it is. I'm self-aware that I'm aggressive in my dislike for religion and I want you to at least be aware of that.)

PS: I haven't watched the video as I'm largely hard of hearing and most videos on the internet sadly don't have captioning for the hard of hearing.

[phil_]

Hm. There's some stuff in there I hadn't thought about in a long, long time. Thanks for the link, tactics, and thanks for the phrase "diabolic sperm rituals" to describe most porn.

[Aerozord]

I'm of the mind that while porn has its ugly side, its not inherently bad. Porn is still fantasy, and as long as it is actual fantasy (I wouldn't classify recordings of actual sexual assault porn for the same reason I wouldn't classify video of brutal murder a suspense-thriller).

I'd say the only real danger is fetishizing things. I mean the psychological definition of fetish, something not sexual that becomes arousing due to your mind associating that thing with sex. Normally this isn't bad, stockings turn you on big deal, but certain scenarios or situations could be problematic.

In other words I dont think we should make giant sweeping generalizations. Depends alot of its content and the mindset of the person viewing it.

[phil_]

In other words I dont think we should make giant sweeping generalizations. Depends alot of its content and the mindset of the person viewing it.I feel pretty comfortable making a giant sweeping generalization that most pornographic videos are "silent man/men stick penis in woman who may or may not be constantly shouting expletives, directed such that penis + hole never leaves frame." And I agree with Ran that it warps people's view of what sex is/should be. And neither of those things necessarily mean I'm calling porn inherently bad. I just think it's obvious (and maybe it isn't, I don't have statistics) that the ugly side completely drowns out the theoretical, life-affirming, uplifting porn that must exist somewhere because internet.

While I'm here, I appreciate that you recognize that porn can shape people's preferences as shown by your fetish paragraph. Have you considered going further and recognizing that crying, screaming, choking, etc. aren't inherently sexy even though most pornography strongly suggests that those things are sexy? And that by doing so it likely makes those things sexy to people who consume porn, as evidenced by the persistence of those themes in mainstream, don't-even-have-to-go-looking-for-it porno? I'm not even bringing up my own ideas here, I'm just repeating Ran, but perhaps you should think about it.

[Aerozord]

I feel pretty comfortable making a giant sweeping generalization that most pornographic videos are "silent man/men stick penis in woman who may or may not be constantly shouting expletives, directed such that penis + hole never leaves frame." And I agree with Ran that it warps people's view of what sex is/should be. And neither of those things necessarily mean I'm calling porn inherently bad. I just think it's obvious (and maybe it isn't, I don't have statistics) that the ugly side completely drowns out the theoretical, life-affirming, uplifting porn that must exist somewhere because internet.

Most porn you have ready access to is just, generic rutting. There is little to no context and just thrusting and groaning. Its the most primal base type of sex and is mainstream because penis in vagina is literal definition of sexual intercourse and thus the most widely relatable.

While I'm here, I appreciate that you recognize that porn can shape people's preferences as shown by your fetish paragraph. Have you considered going further and recognizing that crying, screaming, choking, etc. aren't inherently sexy even though most pornography strongly suggests that those things are sexy? And that by doing so it likely makes those things sexy to people who consume porn, as evidenced by the persistence of those themes in mainstream, don't-even-have-to-go-looking-for-it porno? I'm not even bringing up my own ideas here, I'm just repeating Ran, but perhaps you should think about it.
yea, isn't that what I just said?

Though I dont know what porn you are looking at, if I go to a porn streaming site and click a random video crying and choking isn't typically what shows up. For that reason if someone is actively looking for that, chances are they were already interested in such things.

Really I think general media fetishizes things more since its more continual passive exposure where porn is normally something one actively seeks out.

[Krylo]

I will say that I agree with a lot of his observations, but I don't agree with his solution of just not watching porn for a couple reasons.

Firstly, and really most importantly, is the fact that removing himself from contributing isn't just removing himself from contributing to abuse. It's removing himself, as someone who prefers healthy porn, from contributing to demand.

Basically, let's use an allegory of video games. Let's say you (correctly) believe that the vast majority of video games are misogynistic, violent, racist, and just generally have a lot of bad views espoused in them, often times just as part of the world. You further, correctly, realize that the only way you really have to communicate with companies is with how you spend your money, so you conclude that the proper response is to stop buying and playing video games altogether.

Sound logic.

Except that now video game companies don't care about you. You're a lost customer and as long as you've decided to not buy any video games ever there's nothing they can do to get your money. All those people that didn't care about the misogyny, racism, and violence, (or worse, liked it) though? Oh, those people still have money, and those people are still giving them money. Those people don't guy games with strong female protagonists, or with minority leads, or created with non-violent mechanics, etc. etc. because those people don't care.

So what the industry sees, instead of a reason to make more games with minority leads, etc. etc. is a reason to stop making them. The people who wanted them quit buying games.

On the other hand, if you buy fewer games with problematic shit, and more that move toward a more equal future (even if they aren't perfect, and god knows they aren't), then companies see an impetuous to make more games with strong minority leads, etc. etc. and thus do so.

Porn is the same.

If you (the you in this case being someone who likes healthy sexual relationships) walk out the door completely, then the metrics are showing a decrease in watchers of the porn you enjoy, with no change to choke murder rape porn, well, then why would they make more equal pornography or pornography with build up and sensuality?

Answer: They wouldn't. They'd make more of the awful shit.

The idea of just walking away only works if you can convince all the people who don't care about your argument for equality to step away. As that's not going to happen, there will always be a demand, and so long as that's true, the people who want porn that isn't what the mainstream primarily pumps out really should be making their voices heard to create that porn. The people who want fair treatment of actresses should be making their voices heard on that.

And furthermore, getting people to step away from porn entirely, because it's bad for society (which in its current conception it probably is) will only make life harder for porn actresses. The less acceptable porn becomes, the less socially acceptable the people who are in it become, and the less able they'll be to move out of it if they want to. The fewer alternate paths will be open to them.

So, basically stepping away entirely, as a group will only result in worse porn that does worse things to people and worse conditions for actors and actresses who will have a more difficult time freeing themselves from their situations.

BUT not only all of that, but the way porn over rides your desires can be useful.

I sorta kinda agree with Aero that media, in general, has more of a fetishizing effect than porn in particular, in that it's all pervasive and impossible to escape (unless you go live off the land in a cave somewhere).

However, Porn pavlovs like a motherfucker. Any time you masturbate to something and get off, your brain connects whatever images and thoughts were going on to pleasure.

Which is dangerous, yes. It can cause all that shit the guy in the video was talking about. But it can also be used to make yourself more open to body types, ideas, fetishes, etc. Like, let's say, for instance you find someone you really like, but then you find out she has a foot fetish. Pretty common, but not your thing at all. You think feet are kinda gross. But you want to make her happy, so you go home, fire up the old porn site, whatever gets you going. . . but first you load up a foot fetish video in another window. Then you get yourself to the point where unless something really untoward happens, you're going to get where you're going. . . and swap over to the foot fetish video. Do that a few times, soon you don't need the 'normal' stuff to get going, and you might not ever get to the point where foot stuff is like, your preferred thing, but you can probably get to the point that sucking your girlfriend's toes is now something you're cool with.

So, all that said I suggest an alternative to his proposed solution of not watching porn:

Don't masturbate to anything you're uncomfortable being attracted to.

In the age of the internet you can find any porn you want. Loving, caressing porn is out there. I suggest checking the 'for women' or lesbian sections of porn sites. Watch that.

I, personally, get the most enjoyment out of the starts of porns, whatever lead up they do put in. If there's no making out or caressing and teasing before it starts I usually can't enjoy it. And yet I manage to find plenty of porn with that.

Though that's because I've learned where to look. There's types I won't watch. If something has a Brazzers logo, for instance, I just close it. I don't know if it's still the case, but back in the day that meant the most mainstream boring no touching plastic as shit porn you could get.

If it gets too violent, or anyone doesn't seem like they're enjoying themselves, I close it.

If it's just really really weird, I close it.

And, maybe it's just me being defensive because, well, I consume a lot of pornography, but to me that seems like a healthier way, both for the industry/society, and for myself, to deal with it.

I feel like moving back into a 'no porn' movement will quickly reinforce a lot of conservative views about sex and sexuality and when and where and how it's okay, and isn't how to 'fix' problems at all, but more just a way to toss a quick band aid over them, paying no attention to how much things are festering, regardless.

[Kim]

Anti-porn attitudes tend to hurt porn actresses more than they hurt the people who actually produce shitty porn. Also worth noting that due to shitty beauty standards that aren't exclusive to porn trans women have to advertise ourselves using awful fetishistic terms, black and asian women have to advertise themselves as "exotic" and shit like that.

I don't believe in the voting with your wallet ideology because it's usually not a viable strategy for groups who don't have the numbers to be really listened to regardless of whether or not they support something, but in cases of like indie porn or individual actors/actresses who aren't well known, your support can do a lot. It can help them afford basic needs, or even things they need to keep producing porn. Stuff like putting together a set and whatnot cost money.

So, rather than dismissing all porn as bad, support good porn and support porn actors and actresses for whom your support can make a real difference.

Also, keep in mind, like even kinks and stuff you think are bad have people who are into them from the other side of things. Rapey porn can reinforce shitty stuff, but there are also women who watch porn and make porn who have rape fantasies where they're the victim. In fact, that's super common.

The UK banned a lot of porn it deems harmful recently, and apart from its standards being super sexist (like female ejaculation and facesitting being banned), stuff like porn involving beating women and stuff doesn't just cater to misogynists who like beating women but to women who get off on being beaten and that sort of thing.

As long as its consensual, even if it's presented as otherwise, it should be allowed.

[tacticslion]

How specific would you define "private creations"? Because there are a few stories in my head (visual novels and manga mainly) that I imagine would qualify.

See, that's a good question, and the reason I asked in the first place, is because, frankly, I just don't know. I'm not into that sort of thing (and have worked to avoid it since High School, despite it's ubiquity though ultimately, I've not been able to), so I'm honestly just not knowledgeable. (Similarly, Krylo, I've no idea what a "Brazzers logo" is, but I'll almost definitely close it!)

So that's pretty much exclusively why I'm asking. My experience, what I've had, has all shown it to be degrading, frustrating, and misogynistic. I... hate... that sort of thing. Hate it. Almost every example I've seen tends toward that, too, which is frustrating.

I suppose to some extent, I'm also asking about the various categories of pornographic material, or erotica, or hentai (is that different than porn, other than denoting that it's Japanese-inspired drawn work?), ecchi (a specific thing with tentacles, I think?), and so on. As in: what are they? Does any particular category tend toward less abuse than others? If so, why? How?

And yes, porn has a tendency to be displayed explotively, especially as far as the 'actors' involved are concerned. I'd imagine that with porn being regarded as a form of perversity in people, healthy and loving couple would be fearful of social scorn and retaliation if they put out a porn of themselves, even if the content is heartwarming. That is of course, assuming they aren't possessively protective of having their significant other being possibly used as masturbational activities by strangers. At the very worst, a significant other could be stalked and/or physically assaulted by someone who views the work and not be satisfied with that alone. Some people might use the porn as blackmail material to coerce one of the couple, lest the blackmailer expose it to the public, possibly more specifically to places of employment, social circles and places that the couple doesn't want exposed.
On the other hand, exploitive works are much easier to find because they are done by people who don't care about the public notice (or even revel in it), doing it for the sex or money, or because they are actually victims of people who trusted their videos to be kept secret but had their videos leaked by a vengeful or unfaithful lover (or hacked by someone else) by which at that point, it's becomes pretty much impossible to take back anymore.
There is also fact that protective acts such as the use of condoms seems to be largely absent in such works, seemingly promoting a high-risk/reward sexual fantasy, where STDs are mysteriously not a part of life.

This... is a lot of really well-thought-out stuff and solid reasons why live-action is a bit of a bear in that regard. Also, you proceeded right on to talk about my next question...

In contrast with fictional animated/drawn works, it's easier (as far as I know anyhow) to depict a loving relationship due to the 'actors' involved being entirely fictional and having much less to worry about that sort of backlash (as opposed to real life actors with their bodies and faces that could be recognized outside of the work). There is also more time and emphasis on the story leading up to that point, so we become more emotionally invested in why they feel for each other. Most porn tends to be just the depiction of sex, while truly intimate work tends to recognize that real romance usually requires that certain investment in time, support and occasional emotional struggle and heart-ache. This would take much more time and work and you can't be sure that people looking for porn won't just skip straight to it, making the build-up effort mostly wasted if the porn was the only reason that draws people to view it. So porn tends to either be the key focus (and thus it becomes economical to make it the only bit), or it becomes tangential (but possibly still important) to the real core of the work, the relationship (with all its struggles and triumphs) between individuals. (I say individuals because romance does not usually exist in a vacuum of only the couple, but also involves the romantic rivals, their support/friends and that sort of thing)
Also, fictional works like manga tend to get away with depicting "loving relationships" in socially illegal and impractical/wishfulfilling but sexually titillating ways, like harem stories which begs you to entertain the protagonist being able to romantically handle multiple partners and having them be eventually accepting bigamy (officially illegal in most cultures) instead of becoming jealously possessive or leaving for other guys that'd be happy to have them as their one and only partner. Such plots also conveniently ignore the various practical costs such as trying to raise such a house-hold for the relationship/sex portion of the story. The groceries bills would be staggering for a harem scenario! Also, porns are likely done in multiple takes (taking the best of the batch of each cuts) to exaggarate things like the actor/lover's stamina or expertise, which I imagine rarely is that seamlessly done in one take in real life. Fumbles and screw-ups are part of the sexual experience in real life, people!
(Yes, a thousand times to the last line. 100% correct, and part of the awesomeness of intimacy, actually.)

I tend to agree. I think this is more along the lines of what I tend to "imagine" when I think of "clean" porn - those loving build-up stories, the things that have all the stuff that he mentioned was missing.

But one of the problems is that even when it seems like there are plenty of good places for that sort of thing, even when the space is available, you've got stuff like Newgrounds which (at least all the stuff I'd ever looked at there), ultimately, just relies on rather standard misogynistic crap.

I recall at least two of those "choose your own adventure" kind of things where the story revolved around a guy who slept with several girls, yet got insanely jealous if one of them even thought of dating another male character. What? I mean, he was even a deadbeat father, but that didn't matter, as that girl better not be "cheating" on him! ...? It's just... terrible double-standard ugh-ness.

See, again, Song of Solomon is pretty great. There's a whole relationship built up there, and the story of the Bride and her Love is really touching. There are hang-ups and difficulties that they go through, struggles that they each have to face, and ups and downs.

While Song of Solomon isn't a riveting piece of erotica (I'd imagine few find Hebraic poetry translated to English a masturbatory aid), it's still a solid, erotic story of two lovers coming to know each other and spend time with each other despite their problems and difficulties. (Also, going by older interpretations, Ruth, of Ruth fame, is a lot more... forward... than many modern Christians tend to visualize. Heh. "Uncovered his feet" indeed.)

Another interesting side effect, is how some careers and jobs like teachers, celebrities to children-early teen shows/movies and such give extrascrutiny for viewing porn, (I mean the semi-socially acceptable sort. Child porn justly deserves that scrutiny) being in night-clubs and engaging in other questionable but legitimate adult activities during their off hours, as if the duties and requirement of your job applies off-hours even during your private time. TVtropes discussed this issue as well! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContractualPurity)

This is one thing I'm not entirely sure I agree with you about (or maybe I do, I dunno yet). I think, to a certain extent, there is a valid concern here.

Whether or not that concern has the appropriate line drawn on it at present, I can't and won't say, but the idea that any individual who places themselves into children's lives receives scrutiny for their private actions seems not only wise to me for the sake of protecting those kids (or other adults, depending on your line of work), but also kind of par for the course. Again, perhaps the lines are currently incorrectly drawn - I'm not sure they are.

But the idea that there is a social contract one enters to be "extra squeaky clean" (whatever that means, relative to a given society) when entering certain lines of work fundamentally makes sense to me. It's the nature of the office(s) assumed. Trust is placed into folk, and thus they need to be proven trustworthy, as it were.

(And I'd take it as a personal favor if your response to me in particular focus more on the media aspect and secular matters as I'm a heavy misotheist and would almost surely be contrary to matters focusing on religion in any favorable light, but would like to engage in this discussion on the matter with a degree of cordial respect. I'll do the same in not bringing in and bashing religion, even though I feel it has some roots in why people treat porn the way it is. I'm self-aware that I'm aggressive in my dislike for religion and I want you to at least be aware of that.)

Thank you for your honesty, and I'm certainly not going to fuss at you. I will simply note that both of us would like the others' position to change, and, given that understanding, let us walk together as far as our roads may go in the same direction before necessarily diverging. (We're cool.) :)

PS: I haven't watched the video as I'm largely hard of hearing and most videos on the internet sadly don't have captioning for the hard of hearing.

That video does! It looks well done, too, at a glance, so I'd recommend it, if you get the chance.

Hm. There's some stuff in there I hadn't thought about in a long, long time. Thanks for the link, tactics, and thanks for the phrase "diabolic sperm rituals" to describe most porn.

Yeah, it reminded me of things that I'd just kind of forgotten or not thought about. I'm glad it's helpful. And that is a great phrase! :D

I will say that I agree with a lot of his observations, but I don't agree with his solution of just not watching porn for a couple reasons.

Firstly, and really most importantly, is the fact that removing himself from contributing isn't just removing himself from contributing to abuse. It's removing himself, as someone who prefers healthy porn, from contributing to demand.

Basically, let's use an allegory of video games. Let's say you (correctly) believe that the vast majority of video games are misogynistic, violent, racist, and just generally have a lot of bad views espoused in them, often times just as part of the world. You further, correctly, realize that the only way you really have to communicate with companies is with how you spend your money, so you conclude that the proper response is to stop buying and playing video games altogether.

Sound logic.

Except that now video game companies don't care about you. You're a lost customer and as long as you've decided to not buy any video games ever there's nothing they can do to get your money. All those people that didn't care about the misogyny, racism, and violence, (or worse, liked it) though? Oh, those people still have money, and those people are still giving them money. Those people don't guy games with strong female protagonists, or with minority leads, or created with non-violent mechanics, etc. etc. because those people don't care.

So what the industry sees, instead of a reason to make more games with minority leads, etc. etc. is a reason to stop making them. The people who wanted them quit buying games.

On the other hand, if you buy fewer games with problematic shit, and more that move toward a more equal future (even if they aren't perfect, and god knows they aren't), then companies see an impetuous to make more games with strong minority leads, etc. etc. and thus do so.

Porn is the same.

If you (the you in this case being someone who likes healthy sexual relationships) walk out the door completely, then the metrics are showing a decrease in watchers of the porn you enjoy, with no change to choke murder rape porn, well, then why would they make more equal pornography or pornography with build up and sensuality?

Answer: They wouldn't. They'd make more of the awful shit.

The idea of just walking away only works if you can convince all the people who don't care about your argument for equality to step away. As that's not going to happen, there will always be a demand, and so long as that's true, the people who want porn that isn't what the mainstream primarily pumps out really should be making their voices heard to create that porn. The people who want fair treatment of actresses should be making their voices heard on that.

And furthermore, getting people to step away from porn entirely, because it's bad for society (which in its current conception it probably is) will only make life harder for porn actresses. The less acceptable porn becomes, the less socially acceptable the people who are in it become, and the less able they'll be to move out of it if they want to. The fewer alternate paths will be open to them.

So, basically stepping away entirely, as a group will only result in worse porn that does worse things to people and worse conditions for actors and actresses who will have a more difficult time freeing themselves from their situations.

This is actually a good point, and one of the reasons I asked in the first place. The idea that showing or depicting humans in sexuality is inherently corrupt just kind of rubs me the wrong way (no pun intended). It feels incorrect, and thus I'm asking those who are more well versed in the genre and... I dunno... sub-culture?... activity?... what'cha'call'it?... about what they know of and are aware of. Are there better areas to look, and better areas to steer away from? What say you?

My wife and I enjoy sexy stories. (Duh, you know?)

But the thing is, everything out there presents this face of... blech... everywhere. It presents this seemingly insurmountable homogeneous block of awful. Added to that, one has to consider the desires of our partners (which you touch on, but which I'll pick up on later, below).

BUT not only all of that, but the way porn over rides your desires can be useful.

I sorta kinda agree with Aero that media, in general, has more of a fetishizing effect than porn in particular, in that it's all pervasive and impossible to escape (unless you go live off the land in a cave somewhere).

However, Porn pavlovs like a motherfucker. Any time you masturbate to something and get off, your brain connects whatever images and thoughts were going on to pleasure.

Which is dangerous, yes. It can cause all that shit the guy in the video was talking about. But it can also be used to make yourself more open to body types, ideas, fetishes, etc. Like, let's say, for instance you find someone you really like, but then you find out she has a foot fetish. Pretty common, but not your thing at all. You think feet are kinda gross. But you want to make her happy, so you go home, fire up the old porn site, whatever gets you going. . . but first you load up a foot fetish video in another window. Then you get yourself to the point where unless something really untoward happens, you're going to get where you're going. . . and swap over to the foot fetish video. Do that a few times, soon you don't need the 'normal' stuff to get going, and you might not ever get to the point where foot stuff is like, your preferred thing, but you can probably get to the point that sucking your girlfriend's toes is now something you're cool with.

(Hahah, nice pun.)

This is actually really cool insight into something, and is an interesting and skilled way of manipulating both yourself and your own interests. Fascinating.

This does lead to one other question about partner preferences, which, again, I'll breach below...

So, all that said I suggest an alternative to his proposed solution of not watching porn:

Don't masturbate to anything you're uncomfortable being attracted to.

In the age of the internet you can find any porn you want. Loving, caressing porn is out there. I suggest checking the 'for women' or lesbian sections of porn sites. Watch that.

... first, the fact that there is a "for women" sections of porn sites is... news to me. Cool news, to be sure!

The fact that it seems to be funneled into "for women" and "lesbian" however is... uh, well, huh. It's... kind of sad.

It displays a very sexist view of what is an is not "normal" for people to view. And how to developing kids - boys, growing and coming across those kinds of things - respond to that kind of stuff? It actually negatively reinforces that "these things* are not for men" which, you know, is awful.

That's one of the most powerful things to me, as a father: I know - for a fact - that my sons will, at some point or another - come across pornographic material. It's going to happen, and I'm aware of it. No, I'm not going to introduce them to it... but I do want to know what does and does not exist. What's out there? Is there anything good or worthwhile, or has it already descended into a pile of empty crap? Are certain types of erotic creations "safer" to engage in than others? (The answer: "of course", so the follow-up:) Which ones?

As a husband, I also have to be concerned with my wife's comfort, security, and interests.

We take nothing of the sexually explicit material from the huge free deposits on the grand and free internet, but in part that's because most of what does show up in the middle of other things is simply not appealing for any number of reasons, from ethical, moral, religious, or personal taste (and mostly acting like a kind of Venn Diagram circling all four categories).

But as a husband, the kinds of things that I allow myself to consume or contemplate on - the kinds of things that I bend myself toward - need to be those kinds of things that leave my wife feeling secure and loved. The very kinds of things that allow her to enjoy as well.

{{ASIDE: Sexuality is very, very mental. This is obvious, sure, but a lot of people just kind of focus on the physical or even emotional side of sexuality; the fact is, there is a huge amount of mental discipline, thought, and contemplation involved. What you meditate on is more like what you become or desire.}}

I do that because I want her and I to engage in things that make her feel comfortable. Like what Krylo was saying with the foot-fetish thing - what makes her happy? How can I lean myself toward those things? What makes her uncomfortable? How can I lean myself away from those things?

I think this whole thing, to me, comes down to that. Is there pornographic material that can actually help (instead of hinder) a loving relationship? Is there anything out there that isn't exploitative? Apparently. But apparently, you have to walk through the barriers of "it's not for your gender or sexuality" to get there, which is a real shame.

* The whole "romance" or "emotional relationship" type stuff.

I, personally, get the most enjoyment out of the starts of porns, whatever lead up they do put in. If there's no making out or caressing and teasing before it starts I usually can't enjoy it. And yet I manage to find plenty of porn with that.

Though that's because I've learned where to look. There's types I won't watch. If something has a Brazzers logo, for instance, I just close it. I don't know if it's still the case, but back in the day that meant the most mainstream boring no touching plastic as shit porn you could get.

If it gets too violent, or anyone doesn't seem like they're enjoying themselves, I close it.

If it's just really really weird, I close it.

And, maybe it's just me being defensive because, well, I consume a lot of pornography, but to me that seems like a healthier way, both for the industry/society, and for myself, to deal with it.

This is more or less what I was getting at with my OP. I don't think that sexually explicit content is evil inherently. I think it has its place, and I think it can be useful for deepening relationships. I don't think most of it is that way, however, and I think the majority is probably actively harmful to many.

I feel like moving back into a 'no porn' movement will quickly reinforce a lot of conservative views about sex and sexuality and when and where and how it's okay, and isn't how to 'fix' problems at all, but more just a way to toss a quick band aid over them, paying no attention to how much things are festering, regardless.

Well, I am conservative after all...

But the thing is, I actually get where the guy is coming from. Given that it's exceedingly exploitative, the negative and terrible conditions, and the myriad of other problems involved, it can easily feel like it's already a lost cause. And, for some, I would say it's absolutely necessary to get out entirely.

Alcoholics need to stay away from where alcohol is served for their own good. I think there can easily be a similar situation for certain kinds of individuals. That said, those who have no alcohol problem don't need to worry about it, and should feel free to imbibe responsibly.

And that last word I think is key to all of this: responsibly.

Where is the line? What can one do responsibly, and how can one engage in responsible behavior, socially, within the context of sexually explicit material? Actions? Etc.?

[Nique]

I think the subtext of this kind of criticism is and always has been that 'you should only engage in married, procreative sex and finding anything else sexy is an abberation'.

As bad and male-serving as porn is, puritanical views on sex are probably more actually harmful to women. There are all kinds of "Kinks", many even featured in porn that focus on female pleasure (which often requires more than simple 'P goes in V' sex).

Like... Kim mentioned rape fantasies and that's just one of many examples of power exchanges that some people really enjoy. There are subtle but important differences between wanting to actually control/ be controlled and the kind of power fantasies of BDSM.

[Bum Bill Bee]

Bah, Song of Solomon is an odd duck, and doesn't begin to overule things like Jesus saying "if you look at women with a lusty eye cut out your eye, because in your heart you've already sinned, better to lose an eye than your whole soul in the fires of hell".

Besides, Solomon wasn't even that great of a king. The man went and built idols, just because he felt like it.

Okay, sorry about that. Anyways, yeah, porn is an odd contoversy to get at. On one hand, its bad because its objectifying and demeaning to women. Although you can always just insert the "its just a fantasy, and doesn't actually condone violence against women" angle. I know that every porn site I've ever seen comes up with a warning that puts out that stance right from the beginning.

On the other hand, you could say that its actually liberating women's sexuality, as opposed to saying "blrag, all sex that doesn't produce babies is bad". Plus its a potential career for hot looking women, or at the very least can help them pay for college, and move on to something else.

I can't really figure out which of those sides if more "liberal" or "conservative". Me reading Sinfest, thats equal parts Obama butt kissing and porn hating has not helped at all.

[MSperoni]

Jesus in the Songs of Solomon? Is this the Special Editon of the Bible where Lucas went back and digitally added Jesus to the Old Testament and made it so Abel shot first?

Maybe I misread the post...

Anyway, carry on with the porn speak!

[pochercoaster]

Tactics: I was going to link a documentary by Jean Kilbourne called Killing Us Softly 3,* but it seems it has been removed from the site I watched it on and I'm having great difficulty locating it. However, there is a similar lecture by the same lady right here: http://youtu.be/atl0K7YpbpM It's about advertising and its repercussions for women. Although it's not specifically about porn, her comments are still applicable, I think, and I highly recommend you watch it.

*Actually I guess it's the same lecture, just a different venue.

Anyways: Like all other media, I don't consider porn inherently bad. Porn that is sexist, racist, etc. and/or objectifying is a symptom of society being sexist, racist, etc., so, as Krylo, already stated, simply trying to eradicate porn and/or pretend it doesn't exist and go all purity ball (http://youtu.be/TWQnCcwPf_0) doesn't solve the problem. (Although media can and does certainly reinforce sexist/racist etc. attitudes in a life imitates art, art imitates life kind of thing.)

Like all other media, scrutiny, criticism, nuanced discussion and education (particularly sex education that is comprehensive**) are important to combatting the (unfortunately large) parts of it that are toxic.

**Sex education in school seems to be in shambles and is limited to a basic understanding of reproduction and birth control, if you're lucky. While these are both important, they should not be the end all and be all of sex ed. Sex ed. should include comprehensive discussions of gender identity, sexuality, consent, abusive relationships, and sexism, so that adolescents are prepared and have a counter to the myriad of terrible messages that are laden in media including but not limited to porn.

Hopefully, educating new generations of people on what healthy sex is and isn't would create a demand for "healthy" porn and decrease demand for "unhealthy" porn (whatever that means. The UK government thinks women receiving oral sex isn't okay, for whatever shitty reason. -_-)

...On one hand, its bad because its objectifying and demeaning to women. Although you can always just insert the "its just a fantasy, and doesn't actually condone violence against women" angle. ...

On the other hand, you could say that its actually liberating women's sexuality, as opposed to saying "blrag, all sex that doesn't produce babies is bad".

The crux of the issue is how much of a say did these women have in the production of porn featuring them? This goes back to sex workers needing a union. They need to be in control of their work and also have multiple options available to them such that ideally all sex workers would only chose their line of work because they enjoy it and wouldn't have to deal with all the sexist bullshit in their industry I assume they currently have to put up with.

[Nique]

Adding to what's been said: I don't think you can say that just porn is bad without extending the definition of it to written Erotica, Boudoir photography, Instructional videos, or even various media that is not technically pornographic but is certainly designed to be arousing.

Like, I'm deftinely not saying 'go watch porn'. But even with moral reservations (which I personally also have) about 'gazing' at other women/men than one's spouse, it is more personally and socially responsible to be open to sexuality as a wider spectrum than you would otherwise feel is 'acceptable' without seeing/reading/expieriecing something that gives you a boner. Knowing and disscussing what turns you on in a monogamous relationship without judgement is really a good thing. And modern media being the prolific teaching tool that it is, you're gonna see a dick every now and then.

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

I feel pretty comfortable making a giant sweeping generalization that most pornographic videos are "silent man/men stick penis in woman who may or may not be constantly shouting expletives, directed such that penis...

You should feel comfortable with something else!

While I'm here, I appreciate that you recognize that porn can shape people's preferences as shown by your fetish paragraph. Have you considered going further and recognizing that crying, screaming, choking, etc. aren't inherently sexy even though most pornography strongly suggests that those things are sexy? And that by doing so it likely makes those things sexy to people who consume porn, as evidenced by the persistence of those themes in mainstream, don't-even-have-to-go-looking-for-it porno? I'm not even bringing up my own ideas here, I'm just repeating Ran, but perhaps you should think about it.

Dude, I don't know about like, actively harming someone actually hurting anyone against their consent is obviously wrong, but grabbing/ screaming/ crying out are all pretty sexy - arguably, inherently so. Sex is an extremely physical activity that pushes the boundaries of our sensory expieriences. Like, crying, moaning, grabbing scratching, et al... Porn made people think that the kind of sex that literally every other animal on earth does is sexy?

[Menarker]

See, that's a good question, and the reason I asked in the first place, is because, frankly, I just don't know. I'm not into that sort of thing (and have worked to avoid it since High School, despite it's ubiquity though ultimately, I've not been able to), so I'm honestly just not knowledgeable. (Similarly, Krylo, I've no idea what a "Brazzers logo" is, but I'll almost definitely close it!)

So that's pretty much exclusively why I'm asking. My experience, what I've had, has all shown it to be degrading, frustrating, and misogynistic. I... hate... that sort of thing. Hate it. Almost every example I've seen tends toward that, too, which is frustrating.

I suppose to some extent, I'm also asking about the various categories of pornographic material, or erotica, or hentai (is that different than porn, other than denoting that it's Japanese-inspired drawn work?), ecchi (a specific thing with tentacles, I think?), and so on. As in: what are they? Does any particular category tend toward less abuse than others? If so, why? How?


Well, I can at least explain some of the terms used. (Interpretions about exact boundaries between hentai and ecchi varies and I'm using my own defination as far as I know it, so take with a grain of salt)
Hentai is pretty much the term that people reach for when they discuss animated porn, especially japanese style (typically if there is tentacles used sexually, they'd tend to go there). The word actually means "perverted" so while someone in manga might claim that a person is "hentai", it has taken on a new defination as a term for that sort of porn genre.
Ecchi is more "fan-service" driven. It's basically where the setting is focused on sexually arousing the viewers throughout the story with sexual imagery with low-cut cleavage, panty shots, impossibly idealized bodies and such like that while the story (which can be awesome/serious) goes on. Many anime marketed to teenagers fall in this catagory. They can go hand in hand, but they can also exist apart from each other.

-(+Hentai+Ecchi): The typical all out porn model; Idealized bodies (especially of females) are rampant, sexual acts done for the sake of entertainment of the viewers and so on. I won't give an example since it'll obviously be NSFW and they are incredibly plentiful anyhow. Mind you, there can still be some good works in these catagory, but with mass amount of content, there is bound to be a few gems in a horde of works of questionable qualities.

- (-Hentai+Ecchi): A typical shonen (youth) model for producers who still want to cash in the sexuality aspect. Sex does not actually take place, or if so, is implied as background info, behind censors. Characters tend to look idealized and sexualized, but the story is (supposably) the leading charge, and the sexualized appearance is sometimes ignored by the characters themselves, or only lampshaded as a personality quirk. The manga
"History's Disciple Kenichi" (http://www.mangawindow.com/manga/historys-strongest-disciple-kenichi) is an excellent example, that you can even observe as the series starts mild on the ecchi scale and has grown more ecchi up until the series was over. Still a great read.

-(+Hentai-Ecchi): Very rare, and typically the more "realistic" version. The premise of the work is still going to be graphic sex, but nudity and sexual scenarios won't show up unless appropriate, bodies tend to be more realistic and so on. This may be the more tasteful version for some works, but be warned that "dark and unpleasant" sub-genre like goro (Multilation sex) may also fall into this umbrella.

- (-Hentai-Ecchi): These works don't focus on sexual matters. They can still happen as a background thing or for something mild like kissing, but it won't be prominent in a work.


Now, you might be downright depressed about finding decent works... Well, I have two prominent and easily accessible examples that might cheer you up, if you're willing to give one last try or so.

Katawa Shoujo: (http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/about.php) A visual novel about the protagonist coming down with a heart condition that leaves him in a depressive state about where his future will lead, when he could possibly die any day to a casual accident via a bump to the chest or so. He gets sent to a school for those with special needs in order to give him an education while being able to help monitor his health while giving him the skills needed to live on his own when he graduates. During this story, you can interact with (and possibly romance) 5 girls, each with their own particular disfiguration or disability.


So it's actually not about seducing and nailing disabled girls. The girls happen to have disabilities, but the more you get to know them, the more you come to realise that they are girls just like any other. They are humans with hopes and dreams, and messy, fucked up insecurities about being alive and happy. They are not strange people - they are regular ordinary human beings who feel the way they feel not because they are disabled, but because they are ordinary. They are the universal allegory for humanity; the archetypal human; the mess you become when you feel sad and alone and unworthy. They are the girl next door, the prom queen, the bookworm, the tomboy, and all the baggage that comes with that - nothing more or less.

They resonate with you because you recognise your flaws and needs and desires and triumphs and victories, and those of the loved ones you know and care about. You want to make them happy, because you want them to be happy, because you know them and are them, and in some way you believe everyone you love deserves to be happy.

You are not alone, and you are not strange. You are you, and everyone has damage. Be the better person.
- A message from The Anonymous of 4chan◊


The story is a heart-felt tale about the struggle for self-validation and intimacy when you feel less than whole, less than a normal person. The disabilities that the characters have are largely incidental to the real deeper concerns and fears that they have that any person would have, but are overlooked due to their physical/mental disabilities being more easily noticed. The sex is tasteful (and optional, although you would miss out story-points if you turn it off in the option menu) and I would recommend it to anyone who isn't turned off by its occasional adult content.
It's also free to download and the music is awesome. Can't go wrong with this.

-Futari Ecchi (http://www.mangawindow.com/manga/futari-ecchi) and Futari Ecchi for Ladies (http://www.mangawindow.com/manga/futari-ecchi-for-ladies): The author recognized that some people struggle living life with a mistaken impression (or general ignorance) of how sex and romance works due to their unrealistic depiction in media, poor sex education in schools, social scrutiny and personal fear about being too forward asking questions about sex, and general inexperience. Thus the author attempts to remedy that by making a manga that encouragingly gives advice through a narrative story of a married couple, both mutual inexperienced and worried about screwing things up, but mutually wanting their marriage to be a happy one. (The story also has some chapters on their friends with different sort of issues that are also relevant) Details about biology, sex positions, laws, and social cultures are interspersed throughout the story and it tries to do so in a sexually arousing but reassuring and educational fashion.

I found it a nice read, and fairly educational too. Opinions is a little bit divided on how well received it is (especially where the husband is concerned), but I think it's worth a shot in your case.

[phil_]

Look, guys, I don't even know what sex even is. Please forget I said anything. I know this is an immature way of disengaging from a discussion; I'm doing it anyway.

[Nique]

Look, guys, I don't even know what sex even is. Please forget I said anything. I know this is an immature way of disengaging from a discussion; I'm doing it anyway.

I certainly wasn't trying to insult your inteligence. If that's how my response came across, I apologize. Any jabs were meant in good humor.

[Kim]

that most porn apparently normalizes CHOKING is news to me! I don't see it very often at all.

Also, like I said, people on the receiving end of being beaten and stuff can be super into it, and our reasons aren't purely centered around having watched a bunch of violent porn.

Let's talk submission and bondage: There are lots of reasons its nice and fun but among them is in a submissive role you can let go of a lot of worries and stress that might come with sex normally. You don't gotta worry about figuring stuff out for yourself or anything. Just be an obedient sub and let your domme tell you what to do. Even being physically restrained can be really calming.

Additionally, it can help victims of certain forms of abuse cope with them. Developing new contexts and associations with things that are a source of trauma for you. Many who engage in ageplay are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Someone with rape fantasies can be a person who was actually raped.

Additionally, think of it in the context of people who tend to emotionally beat themselves up over every little thing. Being "punished" can actually be really freeing in that sense.

Porn is not the source of fetishes. Rather, fetishes are the source of fetish porn, and that fetish porn can help people find new fetishes.

[Nique]

that most porn apparently normalizes CHOKING is news to me! I don't see it very often at all.

I imagine this is more like... just neck grabbing/ mild restraining, as actually choking someone makes generally unpleasant sounds (although breath play is a thing, of course).

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I haven't noticed that all too much either. Then again I haven't watched porn all that much recently.

I have heard some studios are rather infamous for stuff like that. Not sure if it's ok to mention names for places like that here for the sake of being SFW.

[Satan's Onion]

Finding good and ethical porn that includes folks who are enjoying the act and themselves might be easier if you have a place to start. Ms. Violet Blue, for example, writes about sex professionally, and often features other sites hand-picked for non-exploitation and generally being good shit. Here is a link to her weblog, which ISN'T SAFE FOR WORK AT ALL HOLY SHIT YOU PROBABLY KNOW THAT BUT NEVERTHELESS I'M WARNING YOU DON'T CLICK THAT LINK AT WORK: http://www.tinynibbles.com/

[Menarker]

I remembered another example of a decent manga. More midly ecchi but there is occasional nudity/sex. Sex is a focus topic at certain points (especially later) although it is not terribly frequent and it is (in my mind anyhow) a rare example of a heartwarming 'harem' work done well. (I'd say done right, but whether it CAN be done right as opposed to be done well in comparison to other harem genre works, is understandably a contestable question).

Umi No Misaki (http://www.mangawindow.com/manga/umi-no-misaki)

Plus, it provides an image that I feel is amusingly fitting given this thread. =3 (Mostly safe for work, but might want to err on side of caution) (http://6.p.s.mfcdn.net/store/manga/1647/11-085.0/compressed/iumi_no_misaki_c085_11.jpg)