Hypothetical Disscussion About "Gay" Marriage

[Nique]

It occurs to me that marriage, as merely a financial contract, makes sense for a lot of people.

Other than abuse of such a relationship and the like, are there really any ethical or legal problems with people of the same sex and/or gender who are just friends getting married but having separate romantic or sexual relationships? What if you wanted to adopt a kid and have a family with your same-gendered bestie, but not a romantic relationship with them?

Like, differently gendered people enter marriages of convenience all the time - why not same gendered people of any sexual orientation?

I'm presenting this as more of a thought exercise than an actual logistical question, as I'm certain such notions aren't't supported by any actual laws.

---------- Post added at 09:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 AM ----------

We need a "Seil Thoughts" icon

[Kim]

I'm sure there are unique challenges to doing this but there are unique challenges to "traditional" marriages as well. I certainly wouldn't take any issue with people going this route.

[Tev]

I'm pretty sure that was the plot of a buddy-comedy movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0762107/) a few years ago....

But in all seriousness, yes, this would be a better way for the system to work.

[pochercoaster]

Marriage exists mostly for the benefit of the state, which also currently fails to provide adequate protection to the lower classes and marginalized peoples, so if they want to enter into a marriage in order to gain that protection, I ain't go no issue with it.

Ideally society would be socialized enough that marriage would become an outdated silly tradition that was solely about romance and not reaping economic or other benefits, because those benefits would be available to everyone who was in need of them, regardless of their marital status.

In short, I don't think there are any ethical problems with it, so long as the kid's best interests are kept in mind- as with any other family arrangement where raising kids is a part of it.

[Nique]

In short, I don't think there are any ethical problems with it, so long as the kid's best interests are kept in mind- as with any other family arrangement where raising kids is a part of it.

Namely, IMO, that it's generally a permenant or semi-permanent arrangement, which, if we get to a point where marriage feels less compulsory maybe divorce rates/broken families etc will lower.

[Aerozord]

I've said before I dislike all social constructs, including the concept of marriage. Our concept of marriage is still based on the idea that it is based on procreation. Its all pretense, what it really is is a social contract among two individuals to be legally recognized as a singular entity. The consequences of which include shared tax status, recognized as next of kin, and power of attorney. These are the actual consequences of marriage.

The perceived consequences is entering into a permanent monogamous sexual relationship. Nothing about marriage as a state recognized institution reflects this. Besides being able to use it as grounds for divorce nothing is stopping you from sleeping with whoever you want. The fact you can get a divorce means its not so much a serious commitment as much as a contract. Heck you can abstain from sex certainly.

To me it should just be a social contract, and like any contract as long as two or more consenting adults agree to it it should be recognized. I dont care if they are the same sex, strictly platonic, related, or if there are 23 people involved. If they want to commit to a mutually shared financial and legal state they should be allowed to.

[Premmy]

We need a "Seil Thoughts" icon
We had one, but we realized only Seil was truly worthy to wield it.

[Kim]

I just want polygamy to be made legal so I can legally marry Marc and Sweet.

[Nikose Tyris]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/canada-s-polygamy-laws-upheld-by-b-c-supreme-court-1.856480 [tw religious discussion]

Polygamy has been an active discussion on BC for a while and the link addresses both sides of the discussion fairly well. That said the laws are outdated and need changed and updated to be addressed properly.

The arguments made against these laws, however, are less viable in some states across the US- might open doors for the politically motivated.

[Kim]

This includes harm ... to the institution of monogamous marriage.

:| this argument seems familiar i wonder where i've heard it before

[Nikose Tyris]

:| this argument seems familiar I wonder where I've heard it before

I know right?

[pochercoaster]

On the one hand, polyamory and polygamy in and of themselves aren't immoral or unethical.

On the other hand, polygamy has a long history of being associated with exploitation and abuse. However, that exploitation and abuse happens regardless of whether or not polygamy is legal (see: fundamentalists in states like Utah), so polygamy itself isn't the issue. On the other other hand:

The polygamy law, the governments said, is the only way to prevent and punish such crimes in a closed religious community that shuns outside scrutiny and where the plural wives themselves are unwilling to co-operate with police.

On the other other OTHER hand, I don't think consenting adults should be punished just because of weirdo cults that revolve around plural marriage. Monogamous marriages also are frequently abusive and exploitative, but any time you combine plural marriage with fundamentalilst religion it seems to automatically equal like, sex trafficking and child abuse and scary shit like that.

What is even the solution here? I'm genuinely asking. I'm ideally in favour of polygamy, but in practice I don't know how it'd work. Regardless, we need to find a way to prosecute abusive people in marriages, polygamous or not. How do we do that when they isolate their victims and fly under the radar?

Edit: Like I think polygamy, when legalized, needs to be legalized alongside other efforts to elevate the status of women and children so they aren't as vulnerable to abuse. The question is: will legalizing polygamy without these other efforts help or hinder the elevation of women and children's status? I'm not sure it would. That's why we need other things in place to protect abuse victims too, like, yesterday.

Edit2: Like, perhaps legalizing polygamy would gives us the motivation to create new laws and social systems to protect abuse victims? Idk.

[Terex4]

Other than abuse of such a relationship and the like, are there really any ethical or legal problems with people of the same sex and/or gender who are just friends getting married but having separate romantic or sexual relationships?
From what I can tell (US law) the only legal problem involved is if the marriage is used to mess with immigration. Ethical concerns are really more of YMMV kinda thing. If you're a prominent member of your church, you may very well come under scrutiny for marriage outside of the reasons your congregation believes in.
What if you wanted to adopt a kid and have a family with your same-gendered bestie, but not a romantic relationship with them?
Adoption agencies tend to be really strict and while, strictly speaking, marriage for this purpose may not be unethical, I think most agencies would cry foul.

We also still need work on our divorce laws. Some states will just let a couple divorce because they want to but other states have a list of approved causes (although separation for x period of time tends to be on those lists).

[Bottle City of Candor]

Polygamy is a destructive, antisocial practice that benefits a few - disproportionately benefits the wealthy and privileged - at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason it's supported exclusively by the more destructive forms of fundamentalist belief.

If you care about other people, or you suspect that you would be affected by an increase rape, murder, theft, violence, corruption, and social instability, it's something you should oppose. If you don't: stop that.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Actually after a bit of research Polygamy itself is inherently fine. it's simply just a wedding between 3 or more people. It's Social issues that still plague our society that tend to cause issues within it and else where. Issues that sadly still occur despite it being banned in roughly 70% of world. It's by no means a direct cause of those issues obviously but rather like marriage in general, falls victim to those that use it for malicious reasons.

Only reason it seems otherwise is more due to the dark history surrounding cults that practiced it for malicious reasons. And of course the abuse and other issues that still occur.

There's no harm in 3+ people who truly love each other getting married.

[Kim]

Polygamy is a destructive, antisocial practice that benefits a few - disproportionately benefits the wealthy and privileged - at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason it's supported exclusively by the more destructive forms of fundamentalist belief.

If you care about other people, or you suspect that you would be affected by an increase rape, murder, theft, violence, corruption, and social instability, it's something you should oppose. If you don't: stop that.

I can't believe someone joined the forums just to shit on polygamy. Also I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm hardly religious at all. I just love more than one person and want to be able to marry my boyfriend and girlfriend.

[Bottle City of Candor]

I can't believe someone joined the forums just to shit on polygamy. Also I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm hardly religious at all. I just love more than one person and want to be able to marry my boyfriend and girlfriend.

You sounded pretty Mormon to me.

It's a gross institution that harms people everywhere it's been tried and you want to legalize it for your personal convenience. Sorry you have a problem with being called out on your oppressive beliefs.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Sounds like you're getting Polygamy mixed up with something else. Tying it with outdated practices more so then what a modern one would essentially be. It's really not anymore "oppressive" then mono marriages inherently. In fact it's no different from them beyond the number of people involved.

---------- Post added at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------

Also Kim's not Mormon...

[Kim]

How does polygamy increase theft by the way?

[McTahr]

You sounded pretty Mormon to me.

It's a gross institution that harms people everywhere it's been tried and you want to legalize it for your personal convenience. Sorry you have a problem with being called out on your oppressive beliefs.
In no specific order of inclusion or severity:


Flaming: Do not be aggressive towards or insult other forum members, whether actively ("John, you're a dick") or passively ("anyone who likes Pokemon must be retarded").


Trolling: Trolling: Do not make statements only to get angry responses. Also, do not reply to such statements, just report the post and leave it alone.


Religious topics: Don't feel obliged to avoid mentioning religions entirely but don't even get close to any type of "religion a is better/worse than religion b" or "religion/lack of religion sucks" type of argument.



Make your arguments without baiting or off-handedly dismissing, insulting, or targetting fellow forum members, or do not make them at all.

[MSperoni]

Yeah I'm okay with debating the pros and cons of various belief systems because I find it interesting as hell, but keep it civil and don't insult people OR ELSE.

[Bottle City of Candor]

Polygamy has been an oppressive institution for thousands of years, and I'm not sorry for saying so. I was raised in an abusive Mormon family and they thought it was too bad it was illegal too.

You should apply your rules to people who break them (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1248985#post1248985), and not people who call out privilege.

[Kim]

But how does polygamy cause theft?

[Bottle City of Candor]

You don't know?

[Kim]

Nope, afraid not. Please clarify for me.

[Bottle City of Candor]

You started a discussion on legalizing an oppressive practice you admit hurts women and children without knowing how it hurts women and children?

It's pretty easy to look up yourself but if that's a problem I can explain it for you.

[Kim]

I'm specifically asking about theft. Please go ahead and look up how it causes theft and share it with me.

[Bottle City of Candor]

If you need a minute while you check the wikipedia page on the topic I'm happy to wait.

[Kim]

But you said you'd explain it? Explain how it causes theft.

[Loyal]

If you need a minute while you check the wikipedia page on the topic I'm happy to wait. Making a claim and then telling other people to do your research for you is pretty bad form, to say the least.

[Bottle City of Candor]

So looking it up is a problem, then?

[Satan's Onion]

...
Make your arguments without baiting or off-handedly dismissing, insulting, or targetting fellow forum members, or do not make them at all.

oh, for God's sake. You're obviously just doing this to harass Kim. You should know better. Goodbye, Bottle City of Candor.

[Goatse is My Co-Pilot]

Stop pretending. You can obviously tell Kim was harassing me, you can read as well as I can that she wouldn't stop asking me her creepy question about theft.

If any of the other people defending polygamy had come after me you'd try and pretend I was harassing them too. Grow up and stop making excuses.

I'm glad I took the time to get your forum's email registration to work. This is my only other account, don't tear yourself apart looking others.

[Satan's Onion]

And you bandodged to do it again. Good lord. No. Just no.

[Nique]

I gotta say - Watching various kinds of idiots get ban hammered was pretty fun once upon a time.

This person was probably the least entertaining one so far. Like, it turned out to be pretty creepily directed at specific people, which is gross. But also there was just very little pizzazz to this. I mean, if you're a hardcore moron then go all out - all caps, severe misspellings and bad grammar are your tools. Use them! This pathetic attempt at harassment and so-obvious-it-isn't-funny strawman arguments just fell flat.

1/5, would not recommend.

---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

Stop pretending. You can obviously tell Kim was harassing me, you can read as well as I can that she wouldn't stop asking me her creepy question about theft.

If any of the other people defending polygamy had come after me you'd try and pretend I was harassing them too. Grow up and stop making excuses.

I'm glad I took the time to get your forum's email registration to work. This is my only other account, don't tear yourself apart looking others.

Although I will say that this post actually kicks it up to an almost Tommy Wiseau level of insanity. I can hear it now!

"Oh hai Mark - Grow up and stop making excuses"

"Stop pretending! You are tearing me apart!"

[Sithdarth]

So I was curious about how convoluted the logic connecting polygamy to theft was and I did a quick google search which led me to this. (http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/01/the_problem_with_polygamy.html) Which was so incredibly bad that my mouth was literally agape while reading it. I guess the link is that single unmarried men are super prone to stealing and raping and being evil. Man I better get married soon before I end up in jail.

Also there seems to be no mention of the link between polygamy and theft on the wikipedia page if anyone was wondering.

[Overcast]

I've historically always enjoyed the idea of making things legal just in general. Then as problems arise allow them to end up in court, where they can establish legal precedent and gently prune the unruly bush until it becomes something that is less prone to making things awkward.

[Kim]

So I was curious about how convoluted the logic connecting polygamy to theft was and I did a quick google search which led me to this. (http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/01/the_problem_with_polygamy.html) Which was so incredibly bad that my mouth was literally agape while reading it. I guess the link is that single unmarried men are super prone to stealing and raping and being evil. Man I better get married soon before I end up in jail.

Also there seems to be no mention of the link between polygamy and theft on the wikipedia page if anyone was wondering.

Thanks for checking but yeah I figured. It was someone trying to argue how they think "SJWs" argue because they had a grudge against me so yeah I knew nothing they said had anything to do with reality and more to do with either upsetting me or making other people dislike me.

[shiney]

This was clearly someone with an axe to grind and I'm glad that they ultimately were like, a brief logjam which was swiftly cleared by the motorboatin' mod squad.

e: New band name?

[Marc v4.0]

This was clearly someone with an axe to grind and I'm glad that they ultimately were like, a brief logjam which was swiftly cleared by the motorboatin' mod squad.

e: New band name?

You're grounded

[shiney]

I'm going to allow it.

[Kim]

Brief Logjam and the Motorboatin' Mod Squad does have a certain ring to it

[shiney]

Right?!?!

[Amake]

Going back to the question of polygamy, it seems to me the problem is more a lack of oversight. You get abusive people insulating themselves and their victims from the rest of society; why do we let them do that? I guess because the more people are in this isolated group, the more self-sufficient they are and the less they have to answer to anyone else. It's a sliding scale beginning with a couple and culminating with China.

So I'm thinking, what methods do we have to hold China or France or Ferguson responsible for how it treats or mistreats its population, and how can those methods be applied to smaller societies like a marriage between two or five people? How can we tie the power afforded the people in a group to a commensurate level of responsibility?

Should we have an organ that scrutinizes marriages, keeping a closer eye the more people are involved in the relationship? Child protective services springs to mind, but they're already hopelessly underequipped to track the welfare of just children as it is. They essentially rely on societies to self-police its individual families and report visible signs of abuse.

I think self-policing is the key, ultimately. All we need is for everyone to agree on a baseline standard for human decency, and make everyone invested in taking care of each other. Not impossible.

[MSperoni]

the motorboatin' mod squad.

One of my platforms while I was running for Supreme Overlord was the application of swift, decisive Forum Justice.

Maybe I was watching LPs and maybe someone else handled it, but Justice was swift and decisive so I'll take credit and reward a gold star to my cabinet. Maybe a cookie. Chocolate chip. Not oatmeal raisen because fuck those.

[shiney]

Maybe a cookie.

Cool!

Chocolate chip.

Delicious!

Not oatmeal raisen because fuck those.

YOU SHUT YOUR DIRTY WHORE MOUTH

[Flarecobra]

More oatmeal raison ones for those who like them then.

[MSperoni]

Oatmeal raisin cookies aren't cookies, they're cereal disguised as a cookie. They're freakin' breakfast. Like, do mom and dad object if you're like "hey I'd like some oatmeal with raisins"? No! Because you're supposed to eat that stuff. Cookies are candy. Unhealthy. Counter-culture.

Oatmeal Raisin cookies are like non-alcoholic beer or veggie burgers or Ecigs. They're healthfood LIES.

If you wanna be rewarded with cereal, that's fine. I dig me some Raisin Bran too but don't give me this cookie malarky.

[Flarecobra]

Well, I admit, I'm not a big fan of chocolate chip cookies myself. But I don't talk down about them. I just give them to someone that does like them. :)

[Fenris]

raisen

raison

Raisin is not this difficult a word to spell, holy shit.

e: while I'm on the topic

Disscussion

[shiney]

In a world where nobody can spell normal words, one man stands against the horde.

Fenris is...

Raisin' Hell

[Fenris]

In a world where nobody can spell normal words, one man stands against the horde...

Fenris is...

Raisin' Hell

not this shit again (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1247065#post1247065)

[shiney]

Sour grapes, I guess.

[BB]

In a word were no-body can spell normal worlds, one man stands against the hoard.

::V:

[Flarecobra]

The funny part, my spellchecker did not flag mine.

[Intern Nin]

Probably something to do with it being the French word for reason.

[MSperoni]

I blame my phone.

Also I typed it correctly all other times after that.

[Sweet]

Truthfully the "harmful effect on women and children" that is so stigmatic about polyamory and polygamy is because of cult leaders using it as an excuse to be abusive. They are not true examples of polygamy any more than "regular" abusive relationships are an indication that "regular" relationships have a "harmful effect on women and children". Polygamy that is functional operates more like a bi-nuclear family. There are multiple partners so the relationship is complex to balance, but also very rewarding. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but Marc and Kimmy are amazing and we work hard together to make sure that everyone's needs and concerns are met and listened to.

[or the Quinntets]

And you bandodged to do it again. Good lord. No. Just no.

I gotta say - Watching various kinds of idiots get ban hammered was pretty fun once upon a time.

This person was probably the least entertaining one so far. Like, it turned out to be pretty creepily directed at specific people, which is gross. But also there was just very little pizzazz to this. I mean, if you're a hardcore moron then go all out - all caps, severe misspellings and bad grammar are your tools. Use them! This pathetic attempt at harassment and so-obvious-it-isn't-funny strawman arguments just fell flat.

1/5, would not recommend.

---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse is My Co-Pilot View Post
Stop pretending. You can obviously tell Kim was harassing me, you can read as well as I can that she wouldn't stop asking me her creepy question about theft.

If any of the other people defending polygamy had come after me you'd try and pretend I was harassing them too. Grow up and stop making excuses.

I'm glad I took the time to get your forum's email registration to work. This is my only other account, don't tear yourself apart looking others.
Although I will say that this post actually kicks it up to an almost Tommy Wiseau level of insanity. I can hear it now!

"Oh hai Mark - Grow up and stop making excuses"

"Stop pretending! You are tearing me apart!"


So I was curious about how convoluted the logic connecting polygamy to theft was and I did a quick google search which led me to this. Which was so incredibly bad that my mouth was literally agape while reading it. I guess the link is that single unmarried men are super prone to stealing and raping and being evil. Man I better get married soon before I end up in jail.

Also there seems to be no mention of the link between polygamy and theft on the wikipedia page if anyone was wondering.


So I was curious about how convoluted the logic connecting polygamy to theft was and I did a quick google search which led me to this. Which was so incredibly bad that my mouth was literally agape while reading it. I guess the link is that single unmarried men are super prone to stealing and raping and being evil. Man I better get married soon before I end up in jail.

Also there seems to be no mention of the link between polygamy and theft on the wikipedia page if anyone was wondering.
Thanks for checking but yeah I figured. It was someone trying to argue how they think "SJWs" argue because they had a grudge against me so yeah I knew nothing they said had anything to do with reality and more to do with either upsetting me or making other people dislike me.

This was clearly someone with an axe to grind and I'm glad that they ultimately were like, a brief logjam which was swiftly cleared by the motorboatin' mod squad.

e: New band name?

Look at you, five friends coming together. This could be your origin story. You could call it "Punching Up". Or "Punching Down". Whichever direction you want.

[Satan's Onion]

I said no, and I meant no.

[Marc v4.0]

Clearly this person doesn't really care at all, and is going to continue to show us how much they don't care by continuing to invest time and effort into the laziest trolling attempt in forum history

[Nique]

Raisin is not this difficult a word to spell, holy shit.

e: while I'm on the topic

I'm sorry! My phone doors word thangs with auto correct!

---------- Post added at 10:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Clearly this person doesn't really care at all, and is going to continue to show us how much they don't care by continuing to invest time and effort into the laziest trolling attempt in forum history

Clearly the forum has allowed itself to be overrun by Sharia Law - trollguy is just trying to save us from ourselves!