Bye

[Kim]

As the mod team thinks "I was considering talking about how I'm racist against black people but decided against it" is a minor offense when compared against telling racists to go fuck themselves, I'm out. Maybe I'll try and make a chatroom for people who don't wanna have to put up with racists like RMB but I'm not staying. Ban me. Don't ban me. I don't care.

I try not to be an angry person and I'm so much less angry than I used to be but this is such fucking bullshit and you fuckers should be disgusted with yourselves.

Like, here's RMB putting the reason he never takes systemic racism and racial oppression in the US seriously for you on a silver fucking platter. That's (part of) why he shitposts every discussion where the problems of the Straight White Man aren't top priority.

And you said this took prior warnings into account? Yes, because of Shiney's long history of needing to be warned and temp banned and RMBs immaculate history of never doing anything wrong.

Fuck you. I hate causing drama anymore but fuck you. Fuck RMB. Fuck every one of RMB's friends. Fuck anyone who thinks this fucker still deserves a place on this forum.

You're all fucking scum.

[POS Industries]

POS, this is pretty much your first and last time to ever treat another forum member like that, regardless of any differences you may have.
H'okay first of all, not even remotely the first time.

Secondly, you want to make it the last time I call out a virulently bigoted, vengeful shitbag out for being a virulently bigoted, vengeful shitbag who walks into every thread one of our members posts in to insult her in language that isn't treating him with more respect than his behavior deserves? That's up to you.

Because banning the person insulting the assholes while the asshole gets a "please try not to be so openly racist, k?" warning is the exact shit that made me step down from modhood. And if that's the climate that you want to continue around here after it's proven time and again to not work and push more people out than it encourages to stay, then 1) you are enabling the behavior of the worst sorts of people and 2) fuck you for doing so.

I'm not leaving until you make me.

[Sweet]

I agree. All else aside, RMB's continued harassment of Kim and then blatant racism constantly getting a pass means that I don't feel welcome here. I constantly hear from members of this forum that it's dying. This is why. People like RMB feel welcome. They're kept around even when they do horrible, toxic things and act like toddlers throwing a fit because you told them no. I tried to stick it out because Marc and Kim like so many people on here, but it's not worth putting up with people who get to be directly horrible and get a pass on it over and over again, completely ignoring the effect it has. Now it's losing two female, feminist members because of RMB. I used to like coming here and reading the Dreadful. I never got to post very much because I didn't want RMB to pick a fight and start crap, but I could at least read things mostly. It's not worth it anymore. Everyone has to tiptoe around RMB lest it seem we're "baiting" him. Fuck this. I'm going back to twitter. If you want to stay in touch, message Marc and ask for my twitter handle. Otherwise, bye.

[MSperoni]

You're not leaving, POS. I'll nail you to the ground first.

[POS Industries]

You're not leaving, POS. I'll nail you to the ground first.
That's cool, but keeping me should be less of a concern than keeping the people who are leaving because they no longer feel safe here. And as long as you're willing to let people like RMB slide, that's who you're going to lose.

And they're good people, Matt. They're your friends and your fans.

[Loyal]

You're not leaving, POS. I'll nail you to the ground first.

Not exactly the time or place, man.

[MSperoni]

Well I'm on my phone and in the middle of work so I can only do so much at the moment.

[Terex4]

That's cool, but keeping me should be less of a concern than keeping the people who are leaving because they no longer feel safe here. And as long as you're willing to let people like RMB slide, that's who you're going to lose.

And they're good people, Matt. They're your friends and your fans.
If this isn't the chief concern then what's the point in having rules or moderators?

[shiney]

tl;dr mistakes happen but they can be rectified

This particular chapter in our sordid history is closed. Whether or not Kim comes back...um, again...will remain to be seen, but let it be known that minds can be changed and decisions made in the heat of the moment should not be considered permanent or lasting. Please recognize that the mods search for "perfect world" solutions even when they are impossible, and that they are human and will fail but do the best job possible to make up for those failures.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

*comes in with pop and pizza*
*see's the fires*
*quickly turns and leaves*

[Kim]

I am coming back long enough to say that while I am glad RMB is gone for good for being a racist fuck, I still don't wanna particularly be here anymore.

Matt, there are some basic priorities every adult should have. One of those priorities is that racism is worse than rudeness. You decided that RMB had a right to say racist things on this forum without being insulted or banned as a result. Those are some fucked priorities. You should have known better. Frankly, there is zero excuse.

I'm still angry. I wanna just let things slide and go back to how they were but this isn't something I can just get over. I know that makes things harder or more complicated for others. I hate that. It causes me grief and guilt. However, I also trust that my anger is justified and that continuing to be angry is justified.

Right now, all I see is that Matt can get his priorities straight after the fact so long as the consequences for failing to do so are made abundantly clear. In this case, those consequences were losing friends and fans. People can continue being friends with Matt and continue being fans of his comic, as is their choice, but right now all Matt is to me is the guy who thinks "I'm racist against black people, particularly in groups" is perfectly acceptable free speech and "Go fuck yourself you racist fuck" is a bridge too far.

The effects of RMB's racism weren't isolated to that thread, as I pointed out, it informed his stances on other issues and the way he handled discussions. Even if he didn't say, "I'm racist against black people, particularly in groups" again, it's not like it would suddenly cease to be a factor in his posts. He'd still be a racist fuck. He'd still be taking racist fucking stances that erase the systemic racism of the US. It'd just be easier for Matt to ignore that and pretend nothing's wrong.

I am still angry. I am still disgusted. Matt should have known better. He should not have needed, "You're losing fans and friends so you can keep a racist around," to convince him RMB needed to go.

So, at least until my anger and disgust with Matt and anyone who might have agreed with his decision finally subsides, I don't really want to be here any more. Not on the forum. Not in chat. I have Twitter. I have Skype. I have Steam. The people who matter can still get in touch.

So, yeah. Bye.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

http://i.imgur.com/6IuAJG2.jpg

[shiney]

I don't get how you can be so blasé I mean I know that drama happens here but this is a direct result of someone literally saying they don't trust black men in pairs or groups. Like this isn't just someone offhandedly making an accidental insult.

I defended you a minute ago to someone but kind of wondering if that was the right choice.

[MSperoni]

I think you're strongly misjudging me, Kim.

Remember: I am not a dictator here. I listen to all sides of what people are saying, both mods and users, and try to make the best decision I can for the group. I have a lot of stuff going on, and I don't have access to every piece of information or past event. I thought a warning was a nice way of calming everyone down so we could see what to do later. I didn't realize it would set off a firestorm like it did. The reason I changed my mind was because of the appeals from Shiney and others explaining the situation a bit clearer and more rational.


RMB is a fan of the comic too, and actively supports and promotes it, and still is in spite of everything. So in effect I "lost" a fan from NPF.


What POS said about FRIENDS resonated a lot more with me than FANS.


But you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Amake]

I for one am glad RMB finally managed to give away what a disgusting person he is in a way that the staff was able to ban him for without bending on our rigid rule of law that'd be better suited to a community a hundred times bigger than this. And we only lost, what, a third of the best and brightest still around by drawing the process out too long?

That probably sounds more sarcastic than I really mean it. My expectations are just that low.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

So I still have the Pizza and Soda if anyone is interested.

[MSperoni]

I could go for a pizza.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

I could go for a pizza.

I have a few, I have meat lovers, veggie, 4 cheese and hawaiian

[Marc v4.0]

I understand the need for levity and all that, but some horseshit just drove my wife and girlfriend away from a forums we used to enjoy and love a great deal, perhaps the right place for it isn't in the middle of their goodbye thread.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

I don't get how you can be so blasé I mean I know that drama happens here but this is a direct result of someone literally saying they don't trust black men in pairs or groups. Like this isn't just someone offhandedly making an accidental insult.

I defended you a minute ago to someone but kind of wondering if that was the right choice.

How can I be so blasé? It's simple. The definition of the word itself explains why. I've seen it time and time again. I've moderated forums, I've admin'd game servers and their forums, I've hosted gaming groups. I've seen it all so much and so often that all there is left to do is just laugh at how hilarious the reaction is to RMB's latest bout of idiocy. A lot of this could've been avoided if past bannings for a number of troublemakers stayed permanent. Gonna point out right here and now that one of the bigger failings of the moderator team here is a propensity for second, third, fourth, and fifth chances. A ban kinda loses it's weight when an empty "I'm sorry, it won't happen again. Honest!" is all it takes to get it repealed.

So, my point being is reacting with indignation and righteous anger at every opinion and slight is no way to go through life.

[MSperoni]

4 Cheese for me!

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

*hands a plate with a 4 cheese to Matt*

[Terex4]

The thing to remember is that this is far, so very far, from our first rodeo around here. Attempts at even-handedness that fall flat are something that has been addressed time and again. This forum has a lengthy history and many of the members here have been around for years. We've seen it, we've tackled it, and expectations have been formed because of it.

When we can't see everything going on behind the scenes, we don't have much choice but to draw conclusions from what is made public. In this case it was someone being awful (again) and getting a slap on the wrist (again). The history of how these incidents have been handled in the past doesn't lend well to giving the benefit of the doubt and, as can be seen, you being newly in charge doesn't do much to alleviate the sting when we're faced with the same issues we've been fighting for years.

[rpgdemon]

Here's the thing: I honestly don't get why we have the rules we do, and why the mods are some high and mighty force to descend down and clean things up.

Like, if the community does not want someone around, feels attacked by that person again and again, and does not enjoy anything about their presence, why are they still around?

Say what you will about Reddit (Mostly really bad things, in my opinion), the fact that the community can say, "Yeah, this fucker is not what we want to see or show" is way better than a moderation team deciding to toe the line about arbitrary rules to show fairness. This isn't court. If someone is toxic, get rid of them, don't keep them around because you can make a case for how they didn't EXACTLY break the rules.

Enforce the spirit of the rules, not the exact written word. The rules are in place to foster a healthy community, and when they fail to do so, chuck them out. RMB was someone who was clearly unwanted by the community, but he kept sneaking by bans for what reason?

When the community doesn't want someone around, or if someone just wants to be an antagonist to the community and just stays to ridicule them whenever anything goes wrong (Hi Skweeb), why are they allowed to stay? Just because they didn't "break the rules" doesn't mean they should be allowed to stay.

[Nique]

I don't like these 'I'm leaving' threads but I understand the desire for people to give themselves a break (even A permanent/ semi-permanent break) from an environment that is frustrating.

I wish we had more activity when there wasn't this sort of infighting. I also wish the thread I started had been taken with the intended amount of levity, but I guess I knew that wasn't something I could fairly expect.

I am frustrated that others got caught in the crossfire that was RMB's (kinda?)subtle trolling and antagonistic behavior finally getting noticed. And I know that someone is gonna be all 'NPF is just a bunch of brainwashed ideologues' but it isn't RMBs opinions that are the problem (at least not directly). Dude is fucking rude.

Like Terex said - We've done this dance before. I'm all for giving people additional chances but, really, enough is enough.

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------



Enforce the spirit of the rules, not the exact written word. The rules are in place to foster a healthy community, and when they fail to do so, chuck them out. RMB was someone who was clearly unwanted by the community, but he kept sneaking by bans for what reason?

When the community doesn't want someone around, or if someone just wants to be an antagonist to the community and just stays to ridicule them whenever anything goes wrong (Hi Skweeb), why are they allowed to stay? Just because they didn't "break the rules" doesn't mean they should be allowed to stay.

To be fair, I think many forum members, myself included, gave the impression that we were interested in continuing to tolerate/ pursue honest discussions with RMB. But it recently became EXTREMELY apparent that he 1) doesn't make any sense or make an effort to and 2) doesn't actually meaningfully acknowledge other perspectives in a discussion. Among other (extremely unapologetic racist) things.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

There is not enough Pizza eating in this thread. Please have more

[Marc v4.0]

I'm sorry your silly pizza eating ~thing~ is being bogged down by the very real and very serious issues we have as a forum community that really, REALLY need attention.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Sounds like someone isn't having enough Pizza

[Sweet]

Considering I'm one of the people who this thread was started by and was about, can you please not try to jump in and derail it. You're not being lighthearted and fun, I actually find it kind of rude. "Oh, these people were really upset about a thing? Let me try and forcibly inject a party atmosphere into it, this seems the exact right time!"

No. It's not.

I'm upset, my girlfriend is upset, and my husband is upset. Comfort and atmosphere on the forum is a serious topic. Please let it just be as it was intended.

Sorry if this comes off as rude, as I don't know you, and I'm assuming you were trying to cheer people up, but it's really not the time and place.

Kthnxbai.

[shiney]

Like you can certainly do that pizza "thing" but this thread is unlikely the best place for it if you ask me. I know that after something really heavy people will feel a need to lighten the atmosphere and I'm really down with that, but this thread should maybe be left alone in that regard. There are several other forums entirely dedicated to not discussing anything serious.

[Solid Snake]

None of y'all give a damn about my opinion but I'm still sharing it cuz why not.

Shitty Mod decision was shitty.

And, since I'm calling the decision that McTahr and others on the Mod Team (whoever they are, I seriously don't even know who they are anymore, there's so much turnover these days) shitty, and *NOT* calling McTahr or Speroni shitty as individual people and whatnot, like, I dunno, I just felt it was a nice and important idea to clarify that.

I mean I understand where Speroni's coming from. He's an amazing guy who, generally speaking, 99 times out of 100, will do absolutely everything he can to preserve the peace, and I appreciate and respect that, which is why it absolutely doesn't surprise me that he tried to play diplomat with RMB.

Speroni's also the kind of guy who will absolutely assume the best of intentions from everyone, and I love that about him, too. I mean, I think he's absolutely wrong to assume the best of intentions from RMB of all people, but Speroni's ten thousand percent that kind of guy and I honestly really don't have a huge problem with Speroni being that guy, except that Speroni being that guy also coincides with him not really being the kind of person you want acting as a forum disciplinarian.

I think McTahr kind of fucked up with some seriously condescending "This is the LAST TIME you ever DO THIS, POS and Shiney!" stuff that seriously holds no weight whatsoever when RMB can do objectively worse shit twenty trillion times and not receive the same dumb finger-wagging, and McTahr, if your response to that is "But I'm holding POS and Shiney to a higher standard!" then you're elucidating the exact nature of the problem, namely that those who are angered and offended by outrageous conduct from bigoted jerks and/or trolls are consistently held to that higher standard in such a way that incentivizes said outrageous behavior.

But even then I'm inclined to believe that McTahr just thought he was doin' his best to preserve the peace as opposed to intentionally wording that all in such a way as to spark this kind of reaction.

Insofar as Kim is really genuinely hurt by all this, I will say I'm offended by you fuckwads all bein' like "Let's INJECT SOME ~*LEVITY*~ into this shit because I'd rather be playfully oblivious and indirectly mock her concerns than actually take a serious look at how fucking corrosive these forums have been over the past half-decade!" Actually, I'd say I'm even more offended by that then the Moderator decisions and whatnot that sparked all this? Yeah, I'm gonna just make that an official Snake stance, why not. Kim's a precious friend and you don't get to pretend you have the privilege to eradicate her feelings because they mildly inconvenience you.

If there's a bright side to all of this I'd like to imagine Shiney's now on the other side looking in on what it was like to deal with this kind of stuff years ago, which sounds nasty and mean when I put it that way when I actually kind of mean it as a compliment, insofar as I appreciate Shiney finally getting sufficiently angry to call a spade a spade with RMB, rules be damned

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Snake, chill out man. Grab a slice and piece on out before you completely lose it.

[Solid Snake]

Snake, chill out man. Grab a slice and piece on out before you completely lose it.

Yeah no, I'm not going to let you try to rile me up with some old-school idiotic "Let me just ignore every point you made!" trolling in the name of ~*ROFLS*~ or whatever the fuck it is that's motivating your waddling down Bullshit Creek tonight.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

See this is why ya need to kick back and chill man. You are wound up tight man. Could probably sit on a screw with no discomfort.

[MSperoni]

That's enough, Daimo. It was nice to have a bit of levity at first but let's keep it be for now, okay :)


(also thanks, Snake)

[shiney]

Do you lack even the most basic level of human decency such as to not troll this thread at this very moment?

At long last, have you no shame?

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Since Matt asked nicely I will stop. All it takes is a small mote of kindness to beget kindness. Y'all should know that

[Overcast]

I've never been one for the general discussion, most of you know that simply because you are pretty unfamiliar with who I am. I have watched this stuff proceed as it has for years now, and to believe that what is happening in the GD is new is a fantastic state of ignorance.

I believe the area was called the SD, or serious discussion section, which we removed to keep us from each others throats, but has become the GD. At the end of the day the desire for us to talk about what we think is right and wrong cannot be denied and it will always end up like this.

Some people will not agree, I will admit that from what I read I will often consider one side more ignorant than the other in that respect. The strong desire to make someone agree though, to try to make the world a better place in the way that you see it is going to cause us to try to fight as hard as humanly possible to make it happen.

Then comes a certain degree of desperation from the person that I would consider in the moral wrong, who will respond as if he is being victimized for having to change. This should be when it stops.

Right there, because they are unwillling to be educated and any further attempts will only make them more defensive.

But we don't. We just don't. We raise our hackles higher till we are tearing out throats, saying hateful things to each other, quitting this place, or getting banned.

And god if permabanning has become such a present thing these days, when was the last time we handed someone a temp ban anyway? Just to let people calm their nerves and pull themselves out of the moment and stop being so god damn angry.

I've always been scared of this side of the forum, don't like sharing my opinions and often feel like I have very little power to influence others but I mean it at this point.

There is nothing that you can say with anger here on this forum that is going to make your point made any better than if you said it calm, and if someone isn't going to listen to reason you should just stop before you ruin yourself trying to change them. We're all flawed in some way, and nothing changes overnight. Calm down. Just calm down, so we can stop killing this place.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I for one am glad RMB finally managed to give away what a disgusting person he is in a way that the staff was able to ban him for without bending on our rigid rule of law that'd be better suited to a community a hundred times bigger than this. And we only lost, what, a third of the best and brightest still around by drawing the process out too long?

That probably sounds more sarcastic than I really mean it. My expectations are just that low.


Like, if the community does not want someone around, feels attacked by that person again and again, and does not enjoy anything about their presence, why are they still around?


These are pretty good sentiments.
RMB had some comically horrible opinions. Hateful, even. Often expressed purely for spite. I don't know what the community, like... gained? From him being here.

[shiney]

I can get where you're coming from Overcast, the only issue I really take is that RMB abrogated any personal responsibility for his statements, in part by declaring he felt compelled to respond even when he knew he shouldn't, and in part by breathlessly proclaiming his right an An Opinion. So while it would have been nice to ignore him or otherwise marginalize his input, the simple fact is he brought that stuff into threads regardless of their location and made it impossible to ignore him. If I were a black person and someone came into a thread saying they don't trust black people, I wouldn't be able to just let it slide or calm down.

I really get your points and in many cases calming down would have been the right approach in the past. Most of the time that's what most people want now, too. Just some people come in and are so outrageously incorrect int he way they regard other people that it becomes more of an issue to stay silent than to freak the fuck out at them.

[Gregness]

*snip*

Fuck you. I hate causing drama anymore but fuck you.

*snip*

_n5E7feJHw0

*snip*

So, yeah. Bye.

If you're going, go, but I don't believe it. Just from my (admittedly imperfect) recollection, you've quit these forums three? Four times? Precedent isn't on your side here.

That's cool, but keeping me should be less of a concern than keeping the people who are leaving because they no longer feel safe here. And as long as you're willing to let people like RMB slide, that's who you're going to lose.

As far as I'm concerned the whole notion of 'safe spaces' is kind of ridiculous as applied to public forums on the internet. Seriously: When the hell was this place supposed to be safe? I joined waaay back when Fifthfiend was still around and the general irreverent atmosphere was one of the chief draws.


*snip*
If I were a black person and someone came into a thread saying they don't trust black people, I wouldn't be able to just let it slide or calm down.

Was anyone suggesting 'let it slide'? I don't think any reasonable person would suggest just letting it go, but while turning the whole thing into a shit-slinging contest doesn't put you in the wrong necessarily, it does put you in the asshole. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdoo43sp3ZY) Don't climb inside the asshole, Shiney.

[Bard The 5th LW]

As far as I'm concerned the whole notion of 'safe spaces' is kind of ridiculous as applied to public forums on the internet. Seriously: When the hell was this place supposed to be safe? I joined waaay back when Fifthfiend was still around and the general irreverent atmosphere was one of the chief draws.

I believe most people in this thread are more taken aback by actual bigotry than they are mere irreverence.

[Gregness]

I believe most people in this thread are more taken aback by actual bigotry than they are mere irreverence.

Fine, be taken aback. Be appalled, baffled, confused, or whatever but even actual bigotry is just wind (electrons, whatever) here when you get down to it. I honestly don't understand how safety is a concern. Is anyone getting threatening PM's that I don't know about?

Honestly, what part of 'oh, there's some asshole, assholing it up' on a message board creates any kind of danger. Call it out, ridicule it, discuss it, engage with it in an earnest attempt to enlighten, but whatever you do if you're living with actual fear because of it that is... very strange to me.

[Amake]

There are people who are so poorly protected by our society that they have to be afraid of things you don't. They have to live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy, in order to increase their chances of surviving. Doesn't seem very strange to me, once you begin to think about how different people are forced into living situations different from yours.

[Nique]

So, Greg, is it possible that you are misunderstanding the usage of the phrase 'safe space' and the idea of feeling "safe" from discrimination in a social environment?

[Gregness]

There are people who are so poorly protected by our society that they have to be afraid of things you don't. They have to live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy, in order to increase their chances of surviving. Doesn't seem very strange to me, once you begin to think about how different people are forced into living situations different from yours.

Sure? I'm not suggesting gay black men go party crashing at KKK meetings, here. This is about a forum. On the internet. What is there to be afraid of?

How to...

Oh, maybe this will work: So, they have to "live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy" and that's shitty but my problem is when we go from "I understand why you're paranoid" to "It's okay for you to keep being paranoid".

I'm kind of struggling to put this into words a bit, but basically this is a public space, and I think that fundamentally, it's a mistake to try and make it a 'safe space' in the manner that, say, a therapist's office or the arms of a loved one might be. That doesn't mean we need to be hostile, dismissive, abusive or whatever (and, indeed, as decent people we shouldn't), but it's not the group's responsibility to shepherd one's every insecurity.

Edit: So, Greg, is it possible that you are misunderstanding the usage of the phrase 'safe space' and the idea of feeling "safe" from discrimination in a social environment?
I'm certainly open to the possibility.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Greg, no one's treating it like its fucking krystallnacht 2.0, they're just pissed off about it and expressing it, I think you are deliberately misconstruing the attitudes, language, and reactions of those involved.

[Nique]

Well, you seemed to be interpreting it as a physically safe space, but then your next post seems like you get it?

Look, I personally am not nessecerily saying "permaban" someone over a single (or even multiple) problematic statments or behavior in effort to create an inclusive space. But I would suggest that the mods refrain from chastising users who give, what the community seems to accept as reasonable, if heated, responses to those statements.

I realize that I'm speaking from the user side and I don't really know all the discussion that happens behind the curtain, so I'm not implying that I would do any better as a mod - I just think we all need to consider when it actually might be kind of ok to be mean to someone. Like, in real life, the shit RMB pulls gets you a punch in the face and I don't think the mods need to be concerned about protecting users from the reasonable consequences of their behavior.

Edit: Like, I'm kind of attached to this idea. Can we implement a discretionary 'if you act shifty we aren't going to protect you from getting a punch in the face' rule?

[shiney]

Safe space I think lends more toward triggers than any expectation of not being physically assaulted because of viewpoints on the internet. This forum is full of triggers for GLBT minorities women and a number of other historically marginalized demographics. We enable people who pull those triggers by treating their viewpoints as valid. We treat the opposing viewpoints of "trans people need more acceptance" and "trans people make me feel icky inside" as if they are equally as valid as "the sky is blue" and "the sky has donuts in it". One viewpoint is demonstrably wrong -- it may be that person's inner feeling, but it is inhumane because those people are every bit as human and entitled to feeling loved and accepted as anyone else.

This situation arose because of someone deciding that it was their right to be directly racist by proclaiming as valid as anything their right to feel xenophobic about blacks in pairs and groups. As a community, that is not okay. There have been a few people posting in this thread to just calm down or just ignore them -- that is not what you do with irrational fear and hatred. This particular person has been given probably ten or fifteen chances to recant those feelings over the ten or fifteen times this situation occurred with that single person. They decided instead to justify their so-called xenophobia by trying to split hairs vis-a-vis "I didn't direct it at anyone".

If any person in public were to say "I don't like black people" they would not be ignored. Blacks wouldn't be told to calm down. Why should this forum be held to a different standard? The term "safe place" relates to somewhere a person can reasonably expect to spend time without being subjected to irrational discrimination. That is this place and that is not in any way shape or form an irrational expectation.

If the choice is have ten people who don't discriminate or have fifty people five of whom are prejudiced assholes, I'll choose the ten. Those would be the people I want to build lasting relationships with. Those are the people I would want to have my back. Those are the people who would be important to me. Drumming an avowed racist or misogynist or sexist is not just a byproduct of this, it is a duty. We all have a duty to one another to understand our differences and be tolerant of them -- not erect arguments that justify the existence of barriers. We should not be expected to give someone ten to fifteen chances only for them to become more bold with each instance.

RMB went all-in that the community would accept his argument of "accept me for who I am - someone who discriminates." This is not the kind of tolerance we want, because we don't tolerate discrimination.

I hope this elaborates a little better what the term 'safe place' means and what the expectations of a community of varied people are. We come from all walks of life and should be encouraged and dedicated to either changing the minds of people who are willing to accept more people into their hearts, and getting rid of people who steadfastly refuse.

The choice is up to each single member which path they will walk. Two nights ago I finally made up my mind to throw myself on my sword if that's what it takes to get rid of hate. I would do it again. I would accept a permanent ban if that were my punishment. I would be honored to be banned as a result of standing up for people I care about.

[Nique]

Also, I just gotta say; After years of seeing Shiney try to manage this shit, to see him just straight up tell someone to fuck off was a sexual thrill.

[Amake]

but it's not the group's responsibility to shepherd one's every insecurity. I guess only if you want to be part of a group that can help people feel safe who usually don't feel very safe? Though that sounds pretty good to me

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Also, I just gotta say; After years of seeing Shiney try to manage this shit, to see him just straight up tell someone to fuck off was a sexual thrill.

Because of phone I can't write the longer contribution I want but holy hell, wasnt it just.
That's print it out and tell your grandkids quality 'fuck off' posting. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[Gregness]

Greg, no one's treating it like its fucking krystallnacht 2.0
*snip*
*ahem*



*snip*

You're all fucking scum.

*snip*
...then 1) you are enabling the behavior of the worst sorts of people and 2) fuck you for doing so.

I'm not leaving until you make me.

...I don't feel welcome here... *snip* ...Fuck this. I'm going back to twitter. If you want to stay in touch, message Marc and ask for my twitter handle. Otherwise, bye.

*snip* ...they no longer feel safe here.

*snip*

I am coming back long enough to say that while I am glad RMB is gone for good for being a racist fuck... Those are some fucked priorities... It causes me grief and guilt... I am still angry. I am still disgusted...

I for one am glad RMB finally managed to give away what a disgusting person he is in a way that the staff was able to ban him for without bending on our rigid rule of law that'd be better suited to a community a hundred times bigger than this. And we only lost, what, a third of the best and brightest...

*snip*

My expectations are just that low.

I understand the need for levity and all that, but some horseshit just drove my wife and girlfriend away from a forums we used to enjoy and love a great deal, perhaps the right place for it isn't in the middle of their goodbye thread.

...Shitty Mod decision was shitty.

*snip*

Insofar as Kim is really genuinely hurt by all this, I will say I'm offended by you fuckwads all bein' like "Let's INJECT SOME ~*LEVITY*~ into this shit ... Kim's a precious friend and you don't get to pretend you have the privilege to eradicate her feelings because they mildly inconvenience you.

*snip*

Yep, clearly I'm imagining things.

*snip*
...they're just pissed off about it and expressing it, I think you are deliberately misconstruing the attitudes, language, and reactions of those involved.

What misconstructions specifically are you accusing me of?

--------------------------------------

Hey, that's a nifty little feature that tells me there's been responses while I was writing all that.


I guess only if you want to be part of a group that can help people feel safe who usually don't feel very safe? Though that sounds pretty good to me.


People feeling safe isn't my responsibility, and I fundamentally can't control whether someone feels safe around me or not. I can be as sweet as humanly possible and someone with one of those learned, fearful mindsets will never be fully convinced. The only person who controls how you feel is you. I can influence someone feeling unsafe, as if I sent a threatening pm implying that I knew where they lived or something...

Okay, so I dipped back a little into what Nique was saying earlier about physical safety vs 'safe space' which is making this pretty annoying. Are you meaning physical safety there Amake? As I said earlier, I think the 'safe space' (i.e. this is a safe space to let out all your problems, we're here to help not judge, etc.) sort of safety is hugely important for people to have, and actually undesirable in this kind of public discussion forum.

This is not the place for it. That we keep trying to make it one is what keeps leading to these misunderstandings I think.

The 'safe space' discussion maybe deserves its own thread?

[Red Fighter 1073]

Fuck you. I hate causing drama anymore but fuck you. Fuck RMB. Fuck every one of RMB's friends. Fuck anyone who thinks this fucker still deserves a place on this forum.

You're all fucking scum.

What I don't get is, if you hate causing drama, then why are you even posting this thread? This thread is really nothing but drama. If you want to stop using the forum, then just stop using it. It's that simple.. Dozens of people have done it before with much, much less rage-inducing hatred caused from all sides.

[shiney]

So you just skipped my post entirely so you could cherry pick contradicting opinions, or?

Yeah, they were mad. Perceived injustice happened. No we can never make somewhere 100% perfectly safe but it's like the concept of fixing wage inequality. There are a ton of people who say "Well that won't fix the problem so why bother." The idea is incremental steps toward finding a solution, not ignoring the problem and pretending it's just going to go away until we can find a big magic bullet to solve everything at once. That's why this happened in the first place, was ignoring RMB's repeated problem-causing.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

What I wanted to get at more at length is that this forum is a public space in the sense that anyone can see the forum and nearly anyone can join, but really it's a private space. Your ability to come here and post can be taken away at any time, it's a privilege. "Safe Space" whatever or not RMB Abused the fuck out of that privilege by posting as a bigot. I'd hazard a guess and say that it was only by some very selective self editing that he got this far without being banned, and had he not totally fucked up something royal by finally admitting that he's scared of black people for being black, he would have gone right on being a bigot but dressing it up as reasonable debate for a while longer.

It's not like we're talking about eggshell caution 24/7, don't say anything mean ever. It's... it's bigotry. Fucking racism, homophobia, sexism. Blatant and unapologetic. RMB didn't accidentally slip up and get demolished for it. He had a history of saying unapologetic, hateful things. It seems like we're talking backward, because it's not 'Why keep those things out' to me. It's why keep them. Why defend it? The community isn't made any better by it, and it's pretty blatant that people like RMB don't have interest in actually talking about or learning the issues. They only want to know enough to try and make people stop talking about it for some reason.

Addendum for new posts, if you're going to *snip*, you might want to make a note of what you're snipping.

So, most of those would be *Snip* (Context)

[shiney]

I dunno it just feels like there's a contingent of folk who are comfortable brushing things under the rug. It's like, Kim got so ticked off that she wrote something nasty and hateful like that, but it happened because we were like "hey you guys who were mean to the racist, never again! hey racist, try and be less racist."

[Nique]

Gregness, just, ugh, I think at this point that the only thing you are accomplishing is simply restating your opinion that your paticular interpretation of what it means to have a safe space is bad for the forum. You don't seem to have any real rebuttal or argument other than 'I think I think' and your tone is coming off as taking things personally as well as being intentionally obtuse about the entirely rational arguments you've been presented with.

Like, man, no, as strongly worded as Kim and et als posts were, no one acted like they were being physically assaulted and you quoting them didn't' prove otherwise.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I dunno it just feels like there's a contingent of folk who are comfortable brushing things under the rug. It's like, Kim got so ticked off that she wrote something nasty and hateful like that, but it happened because we were like "hey you guys who were mean to the racist, never again! hey racist, try and be less racist."

And, fuck, I was right there on that "Hey just don't be so mean about it" side of the fence for a long time and it was only relatively recently that it popped into realization that, no, not everybody who argues about this shit on those particular sides is doing so in good faith with real concerns about actual consequences. Some are just bigots! Who knew. Oh, I know who knew, the people who kept telling me that which I ignored.

Take the most recent examples for convenience, but in those days/posts leading up to this RMB talks about how, 'no guys it's totally insulting to the black community when you try to help them.' and helpfully offered up all kinds of strategic advice for those of us who want to be helpful to social justice, all of which was by sheer coincidence 'Stop posting about it here'.

In the context of RMB as a guy who uses phrases like White Guilt and who thinks black people are scary in groups, does he really give a shit about that? Did he ever give a fuck about how Social Justice is being hurt by the way we talk about it? Fuck no.

[Gregness]

So you just skipped my post entirely so you could cherry pick contradicting opinions, or?

Yeah, they were mad. Perceived injustice happened. No we can never make somewhere 100% perfectly safe but it's like the concept of fixing wage inequality. There are a ton of people who say "Well that won't fix the problem so why bother." The idea is incremental steps toward finding a solution, not ignoring the problem and pretending it's just going to go away until we can find a big magic bullet to solve everything at once. That's why this happened in the first place, was ignoring RMB's repeated problem-causing.

I'm going to assume this was directed towards me since I don't see how it applies to Red's post. I thought that ~80% of your post was at best a tangent to the issue I'm actually interested in discussing. RMB was being racist and he got banned. Whatever, I wasn't a part of that thread, and I honestly don't care. He was being toxic and now he's gone.

Now, for the parts of your post that are related:


This situation arose because of someone deciding that it was their right to be directly racist by proclaiming as valid as anything their right to feel xenophobic about blacks in pairs and groups. As a community, that is not okay. There have been a few people posting in this thread to just calm down or just ignore them -- that is not what you do with irrational fear and hatred. This particular person has been given probably ten or fifteen chances to recant those feelings over the ten or fifteen times this situation occurred with that single person. They decided instead to justify their so-called xenophobia by trying to split hairs vis-a-vis "I didn't direct it at anyone".


As the mods are so fond of telling everyone, that's what the 'report' button is for. You report that shit, RMB gets banned and everyone gets on with their lives.


Safe space I think lends more toward triggers than any expectation of not being physically assaulted because of viewpoints on the internet. This forum is full of triggers for GLBT minorities women and a number of other historically marginalized demographics. We enable people who pull those triggers by treating their viewpoints as valid. We treat the opposing viewpoints of "trans people need more acceptance" and "trans people make me feel icky inside" as if they are equally as valid as "the sky is blue" and "the sky has donuts in it". One viewpoint is demonstrably wrong -- it may be that person's inner feeling, but it is inhumane because those people are every bit as human and entitled to feeling loved and accepted as anyone else.

Like I said, this discussion maybe needs its own thread, but I don't believe that it's my responsibility to avoid triggering people. There are literally infinite ways to potentially trigger someone, and it's ridiculous to expect anyone posting to account for all that. How thin must I assume the average reader's skin to be?

Also, as far as I'm aware, no one was actually defending RMB except for RMB (admittedly, I only skimmed the threads in question) so how were his viewpoints being validated?


What I wanted to get at more at length is that this forum is a public space in the sense that anyone can see the forum and nearly anyone can join, but really it's a private space. Your ability to come here and post can be taken away at any time, it's a privilege. "Safe Space" whatever or not RMB Abused the fuck out of that privilege by posting as a bigot. I'd hazard a guess and say that it was only by some very selective self editing that he got this far without being banned, and had he not totally fucked up something royal by finally admitting that he's scared of black people for being black, he would have gone right on being a bigot but dressing it up as reasonable debate for a while longer.


So, would maybe a private house party be a more appropriate model? The moderators would be analogous to the hosts who have the power to kick people out of their house.

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------

Gregness, just, ugh, I think at this point that the only thing you are accomplishing is simply restating your opinion that your paticular interpretation of what it means to have a safe space is bad for the forum. You don't seem to have any real rebuttal or argument other than 'I think I think' and your tone is coming off as taking things personally as well as being intentionally obtuse about the entirely rational arguments you've been presented with.

Like, man, no, as strongly worded as Kim and et als posts were, no one acted like they were being physically assaulted and you quoting them didn't' prove otherwise.

Okay, I don't think I'm really being unreasonable in reading this:

Greg, no one's treating it like its fucking krystallnacht 2.0, they're just pissed off about it and expressing it, I think you are deliberately misconstruing the attitudes, language, and reactions of those involved.

Putting it through the 'internet hyperbole' lense, and interpreting to mean "hey, no one was actually that angry" then putting up a bunch of quotes of people being angry as shit as a counterargument.

I never (intentionally) implied that I thought that anyone else thought they were in physical danger.

[Amake]

I am talking about both physical and emotional feelings of security, Greg. I don't think there's any great difference between being scared for your life and being scared for your emotional well-being when you are scared. But either way, yes, I think that's exactly the place where we can try to avoid that. Maybe you're comfortable with vulnerable people being uncomfortable around you, but I'm not. I'd like to make every effort to make a safe space, of any kind, anywhere I can. I don't even understand what you mean by it being undesirable, unless you're looking for like a cold, distanced hard-hitting debate arena tackling the tough questions like Youtube comments or something.

Why shouldn't NPF feel safe? Let's open that question to the whole forum.

Meanwhile, you might want to think about how people you talk to feel about you talking to them, if you're interested in continuing to talk to people. It may not be your responsibility to care about other people, but that doesn't mean you can't do it if you want to.

[Gregness]

My opinion is that we can, and very much should be inclusive and non-threatening, but we fundamentally can't actually make anyone feel safe.

If I'm allowed to use the house party metaphor I brought up in my last post, of course you kick out the asshat making the sexist and racist remarks, and you should be considerate enough not to tell a 'yo momma' joke in front of someone whose mother just died, but the actual 'safe space' stuff is what therapists and tender moments with your loved ones are for and I really don't think a house party with dozens of people is the place where that can happen.

Yes, Nique, this is 'I think, I think'. That's why I want to discuss it, maybe I AM in the wrong, but I'll never know unless I bring it up.

[shiney]

We can't make anyone feel safe, but we sure as hell can provide an environment that is unwelcoming to people who make other people feel unsafe.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Greg this seems really pedantic and not terribly constructive.

[Amake]

"Dozens" of people might be an exaggeration, but anyway, why not? We don't have to be limited to trusting only close family members and professional therapists for a handful of seconds a week. Maybe we'll never be able to let ourselves be completely vulnerable on the Internet, but why not a little bit? Why not work towards NPF having that kind of atmosphere and see how good we can make it? You seem opposed to the idea, like there's some benefit to mistrust and discomfort.

[rpgdemon]

As I said earlier, I think the 'safe space' (i.e. this is a safe space to let out all your problems, we're here to help not judge, etc.) sort of safety is hugely important for people to have, and actually undesirable in this kind of public discussion forum.

This is not the place for it. That we keep trying to make it one is what keeps leading to these misunderstandings I think.

The 'safe space' discussion maybe deserves its own thread?

If you are in control of an area, which we are here, why the heck wouldn't you make it one where you keep out bigots?

What sort of ~*precious prejudices*~ do they give us that we want? The only reason the world isn't a safe space is because of assholes, and why would you sit around going, "Well, he's a dick and makes my friends upset, but I don't want to ruin the potential for racist discussions going on in my house by kicking him out"? Has it occurred to you that maybe we do not want racist discussions going on in our forum? Has it occurred to you that to go, "Let's allow people to bloviate rhythmically, spewing bigoted rhetoric everywhere" is the issue, and things only get heated because of that? Or that allowing bigoted dialogue only encourages the bigots to come here, and discourages those who are oppressed from staying?

How the heck is it undesirable to have a safe place for everyone to be themselves without being attacked? If you want to be horrible, go out into the rest of the world and do it. That is already your place to do that! We don't NEED a forum dedicated to emulating the rest of the world where anyone can be horrible and have no consequences, because it is already RIGHT THERE. Instead, let's have a better version of the world we live in, where people can be who they are, and not fucking worry about someone throwing shit at them that they have to deal with day in and day out everywhere else.

[Nique]

Greg this seems really pedantic and not terribly constructive.

It is coming across that way, which is why this conversation is getting a little frustrating.

What is happening is, Greg, you are sort of getting hung up on what YOUR idea of 'safe space' means when its actually being used in a more general sense, which I think has been explained in part by the acknowledgment that 'no, we can't make things perfect in this type of space, but we still want to respond in a way that shows we don't want bigotry here' (I am paraphrasing what Shiney and others have said here, in case that was unclear).

Reading everyone's posts closely, you are more in agreement than you think. Semantics is sort of getting in the way here.

[Toast]

We can't make anyone feel safe, but we sure as hell can provide an environment that is unwelcoming

You've succeeded.

I don't, as a rule, get involved when this kind of thing blows up, because it's not really my business, because it usually involves the same people over and over again, and because, quite frankly, it's just plain whacked no matter how you try to look at it.

Time and time again, however, I refrain from posting because I know pretty much how it's going to go. Safe place? That's a joke when 80% of the discourse on this forum begins when someone asks a question about some issue, and someone who self-identifies as a social justice warrior jumps down their throat and attacks them for trying to understand. Things spiral out of control from there, but that's where it always starts.

That's why I don't participate here. This has become such a toxic, insular community of zealots that it's pointless to try to have a discussion. I'm a feminist, but I'm also apparently the absolute scum of the earth for not being as gung ho or postmodern or SJW enough for certain people's liking. So is everyone else who isn't as zealous as they are.

Which is why there's no actual discourse, and why this community keeps having the same problem over and over again. There are people who are interested in discussion. And there are people who are interested in getting everyone else to believe the same things they believe.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” ~ C.S. Lewis.

I don't know if this is a true quote or not, and as far as I'm concerned it really doesn't matter. Whoever wrote it/said it has a fair point. And this is the "safe" place you've built. I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't participate because the chance of getting jumped on for asking a question about something they don't understand is pretty damn high. Why bother asking a question if you know you're going to get vitriol rather than an answer?

Well, I've almost scrapped this post twice now, so I may as well just end it here.

[Nique]

LOL @ 'Nique as SJW'

Toast, if that's what you really think and you aren't totally full of it as is SO often the case with the 'boo hoo poor me the scary SJWs are being meeeean to me' complaints, you are 100% misreading this forum's history and the validity of your 'fear of vitriol'.

Like K-Resh, I used to think that politness was above all until I reliazed that it was being used, intentionally or not, as a sheild to mask actual bigotry.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Just, you know, so we all remember:
Out and out unashamed bigotry. Not asking for information, not making a mistake. Right up in your face bigotry.

[shiney]

I have to lol a little bit too because if anything I don't think anyone here would ever argue I am a social justice warrior. I am someone who cares about basic human decency though and I've reached my maximum tolerance for people who mask their bigotry and suchlike by not being directly abrasive.

[Amake]

I was wondering when the last time was I saw anyone "asking a question about some issue" that seemed the least bit like someone trying to learn - rather than trying to get at some of those apparently toxic zealots - who was then called the scum of the earth. I know it did happen at some point, and I felt appropriately bad about it and resolved to try and show more good faith in the future, and I felt most of the forum seemed to learn from it as well. The risk of building ourselves an ideological ghetto, intolerant of those trying to learn, has been a concern to me for some time, and so I'm forced to ask: When did anything like what Toast describes actually happen last? Got any links? I'm not planning to have any rethreaded/revisionistic arguments, I just want to see what I've apparently missed and see what I might learn from it.

[Kim]

Just, you know, so we all remember:
Out and out unashamed bigotry. Not asking for information, not making a mistake. Right up in your face bigotry.

Maybe we all misunderstood and he was just a pure confused soul asking if it was wrong for him to be "xenophobic" against black people "especially in groups".

[shiney]

Worst quitter ever.

You suck at quitting, except for when you quit quitting.

[Kim]

I could get better at quitting but I'd have to get better at holding grudges first. That's what's really holding me back.

[rpgdemon]

Nah, Kim is the best quitter there is. She's quit, like, way more than YOU have.

[shiney]

The only thing she's ever quit was quitting.

Though I guess that's happened like 5 times too.

[Kim]

;-;

[Solid Snake]

I choose instead to believe that Kim couldn't bear the thought of leaving me, and that's what compelled her to come back to this shithole.

[Nique]

I was wondering when the last time was I saw anyone "asking a question about some issue" that seemed the least bit like someone trying to learn - rather than trying to get at some of those apparently toxic zealots - who was then called the scum of the earth. I know it did happen at some point, and I felt appropriately bad about it and resolved to try and show more good faith in the future, and I felt most of the forum seemed to learn from it as well. The risk of building ourselves an ideological ghetto, intolerant of those trying to learn, has been a concern to me for some time, and so I'm forced to ask: When did anything like what Toast describes actually happen last? Got any links? I'm not planning to have any rethreaded/revisionistic arguments, I just want to see what I've apparently missed and see what I might learn from it.

There have been genreal apologies issued from users who admitted that they came in too hot in various discussions while still usually making the point that the actual message being discussed and not their delivery of it is of primary importance.

For some folks, this isn't enough.

Also, I think I should mention that I appreciated Gregness sticking around for this chat, even though there were some strong disagreements, rather than just coming in to take one-off pot-shots at Kim for quitting or make word vomit about NPF "zealots". Seriously folks, if you have time to come in and post, you can also take the time to use some active listening skills by actually participating in the discussion.

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

I choose instead to believe that Kim couldn't bear the thought of leaving me, and that's what compelled her to come back to this shithole.

Get a room!

[Kim]

Get a room!

i would but he lives too far away

[Gregness]

*snip*

Also, I think I should mention that I appreciated Gregness sticking around for this chat, even though there were some strong disagreements, rather than just coming in to take one-off pot-shots at Kim for quitting or make word vomit about NPF "zealots". Seriously folks, if you have time to come in and post, you can also take the time to use some active listening skills by actually participating in the discussion.

*snip*

Thanks, I appreciate it. I was actually planning on taking this to another thread like I suggested a couple times, but I've got a presentation tomorrow morning so I can't really spend any more time on this tonight. >.<

[Overcast]

I would admit a good screwing would probably help Snake out a bit, but that is an entirely different story.

I guess if I had to get into the argument of this place as a safe place I'd say that there is a lot of difficulty in figuring out where we draw the line and where we lay the veil. Now some things can be obvious, like honest to balls bigotry that goes beyond simple ignorance, others can be a little more hmm inducing, like when SMB used to flip the fuck out when someone didn’t use the same definition of anarchy as him. There have been some recent permabans that came less from a genuine state of hate, and more from a habitual response of mockery(which I figure deserves a break at best) or random bouts of anger that results in a very ugly post that ends up hitting a nerve in the right person.
Hell we almost banned Kim for that reason, and may have actually banned Kim for that reason like once, I think I accidentally defused that one.

We’re for the most part not bad folks, but can be aggressively defensive sometimes. The calm from my last post comes back to say sometimes it might be best to tell someone why what they are saying is making you uncomfortable before you ruin them with words. If they ignore that, then they are probably just bad people, cause they are willing to hurt you to make their point. Moreover it helps us get a more prominent perspective as to WHY we feel a certain way.

Like how I feel uncomfortable discussing some rape culture topics because I irrationally sometimes feel like they must be talking about me when they say most men, and to be honest they might be. It makes it super uncomfortable and I don’t like it, despite the fact that I also think it is important for me to kinda pull myself past that and keep looking so I can see where I am at fault, and also despite the fact me and my boyfriend will then immediately fantasize about our in the bedroom roleplay involving fake dubcon. Which is hot to us for reasons that are likely equally uncomfortable for plenty of folks, which I would want to know to know who I can discuss shared enjoyment of this with, and who I should try not to talk to.

At the end of the day where the line and veils are, aren’t as much a responsibility of the mods, they are there to enforce when people are stomping on that, but we as the community have to figure out what we are willing to accept.

[Teal Mage]

Time and time again, however, I refrain from posting because I know pretty much how it's going to go. Safe place? That's a joke when 80% of the discourse on this forum begins when someone asks a question about some issue, and someone who self-identifies as a social justice warrior jumps down their throat and attacks them for trying to understand. Things spiral out of control from there, but that's where it always starts.

That's why I don't participate here. This has become such a toxic, insular community of zealots that it's pointless to try to have a discussion. I'm a feminist, but I'm also apparently the absolute scum of the earth for not being as gung ho or postmodern or SJW enough for certain people's liking. So is everyone else who isn't as zealous as they are.

Not to prolong this thread, but I want to publicly second Toast's remarks. There was a bit of a dog-pile on him, but I thought what he said was a pretty fair read of the situation on here lately.

The risk of building ourselves an ideological ghetto, intolerant of those trying to learn, has been a concern to me for some time, and so I'm forced to ask: When did anything like what Toast describes actually happen last? Got any links? I'm not planning to have any rethreaded/revisionistic arguments, I just want to see what I've apparently missed and see what I might learn from it.

I tend to shy away from reading "serious" debate threads on the forums now, but I'm pretty confident that the Israeli/Palestinian thread I was in a while back was borderline-appropriate the whole time (hence why I avoid threads now). Regardless, if you need an example, use that, since whenever I enter a debate its to help clarify my views on a subject by listening to and testing the arguments of others. I'm pretty sure I'm not unusual in that regard on here, so you can probably find other examples just by digging into the Current Events archive.

On the subject of Safe Spaces, this is a relevant article from the Guardian I stumbled upon today. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/11/mainstream-left-silencing-sympathetic-voices?CMP=fb_gu) I'll cite it to respond to the handful of people who have asked why a forum shouldn't be a safe space, as is commonly understood now. Note that I do not agree with all of the author's views, but I side with his general thesis (the left needs to work on its tolerance, particularly of sympathetic but different views).

And, for absolute clarity, this post has no relation to RMB.

[Glass Pencil]

This is Poch here, I'm gonna go on and break my temporary break for a minute.

A comment on safe spaces: I used to log on to chat and have to listen to one member, who no longer patronizes here (cabal49) joke abput raping my husband. Now, I understand there was no real threat of my husband being raped, but FUCK that is not funny and I should not have had to read that. Same member went on to "joke" that my husband kidnapped and forced me into marrying him. What the fuck? Again, I realize they were being ignorant, but actually no, no one should have to read bullshit like that.

I logged on to 8bits IRC chat when I was 14 (patronized by people who no longer post here) and was told pics or GTFO.

Kim has had to deal with transphobic comments. I can't elaborate on them because they're not burned into my memory, but yeah.

There are more, worse, instances but I'd feel really uncomfortable elaborating on them publically. You may judge that as you may. I have received unwelcome sexual advances on here that make me want to puke when I think about them. And if you think I'm unreasonable or unfriendly let me reiterate I met my husband on NPF.

I'm all for having reasonable discussions and not jumping on people over slight missteps. But when people who subjected me to comments like what I describe leave, the forum and chat does become a much more pleasant place. No one needs RMB's brazen racism or other members joking about raping people's spouses, thanks. That's where I draw the line. I don't even like the term safe space- I just don't want to deal with sexually threatening comments, or extreme racism, or transphobia. That's not unreasonable.

Overcast, your comment about Snake seems unnecessary and, well, mean. The fuck does anyone's sex life have to do with this? :| come on.

[Overcast]

I'll say that I didn't intend any mean-ness by it, and it has nothing to do with anything other than how I absorb his unique character and definitely only marginally is related to the discussion here.

To elaborate, if you desire, I mean to say that he has been through a genuinely troublesome situation when it comes to his love life and I dunno if he is recovering much but he could do with finding someone new. Someone who can relate to him emotively sure, but I also feel like he hasn't gotten enough of a chance to explore himself sexually, partly due to his own morality on the matter. I feel like it could be a healthy thing for him and help him figure out a bit more about himself, I feel like everyone who hasn't had the opportunity could gain from that as well.

I'll be chilling in the chat for an extended period, probably better to bring this there if you still want to talk about it.

[Glass Pencil]

Upon re reading the thread (i read it last night but I just woke up and it's waaaaay too early here), I retract my comment, I missed the banter earlier in the thread and thought your comment just came out of nowhere, sorry.

[Overcast]

Heh, its all good, you did it out of a good heart so I can't be mad about it.

[POS Industries]

ngl I'd prefer a small, insular community of like-minded "zealots" over a larger community where I have to put up with a rainbow of magical asshats.

[shiney]

rainbow of magical asshats.

That's IP theft, let's hash it out over lunch, I'll have my people sue your people.

[Premmy]

Yeah, no, this stopped being anything close to a "Public" Space a long long time ago. This is a community of friends. It's private space. It's not unreasonable for people to be expected to try and learn to respect their small groups of friends individual natures within that context. Fuck "safe space", We're all supposed to be homies enough at this point that figuring out what hurts each other shouldn't be treated as "extra".


And I'm going to say at this point and say that to people like Toast, et. al. Look, maybe you're not RMB/Smarty(Cause this is seriously the Smarty Problem all over again) et.c. coming in trying to troll and be disingenuous and fake "nice". Maybe you're a good person. But maybe you also just have some fucked up ideas kicking around in your head.
All the apprehension you feel about "Just expressing my opinion" comes just as much from fear of reprisal as it does knowing that, yeah, maybe something's wrong with it.

We live in an inherently toxic society that poisions us all. Shit's fucked up. It fucks us up too. all of us, every one. You want to talk about it, get at me. Yelling won't happen but I'm also not going to NOT say shit's racist, Homophobic, e.t.c. when it is. You can't talk about a thing without talking about the thing. I'm not gonna blow sunshine up your ass, but I'm not going to kick it either.