Dear Cis People [Archive] - The Warring States of NPF

Kim

06-18-2015, 04:03 PM

Eh no need to censor it out, that'd be me. Let my interim lust over dicks in cute outfits get the better of me since we were in the general topic of ridiculous fanservice choices. Sexual urges aside, I do wish you'd chosen to stick around and give something definitive instead of storming away. I know this forum has not made itself a great place to have an educational conversation on a matter, but I'd have appreciated the attempt.

I don't like having to educate people every time they say something gross and ignorant.

What you did was fetishize a trans woman character because of her genitals. Or rather, because of the genitals you wanted her to have. This basically puts you on the same level as the rude creeps I had to deal with working as a camgirl.

I and many other trans women refer to guys like that as chasers. And chasers dehumanize us in their fetishization of our bodies.

Apart from the fact that it's especially fucked up to fetishize us based on whether or not we have dicks, it's also really upsetting to know that our sexual value to others is so heavily on reliant on whether or not we still have a part of our body many of us want removed.

Whether I'll still be able to make money selling photosets after I have genital surgery (Which I won't even be able to afford for years) is a genuine worry I have to deal with. I'm not the only one either.

And it's not just in the realm of us being reduced to sexual commodities either that we're judged based on our genitalia. Cis people who think it's perfectly acceptable to just ask any trans person they meet if we've had "the surgery" or if we're going to have "the surgery" and if not acting like we're less of a woman for that. Cis people who keep us from having our gender recognized unless we've had genital surgery, assuming they'll recognize our gender ever.

Or how about the fact that I have literally told people in the past, one of them involved in the conversation I shared in this thread, that Poison's genitals don't matter, and I was told that "Yes they do!" Because apparently cis people can't wrap their damned heads around the fact that maybe a trans woman knows more about the trans experience than they do and regardless maybe it's really fucking rude to keep talking about a trans character's genitals when it is clearly upsetting the only trans person present.

I mean, of all places I'd like to be able to talk about Poison here without some fuck bringing up her genitals or being like "You know she's really a guy right", things inescapable pretty much EVERYWHERE ELSE any time the subject of Poison comes up, but I guess I literally can't expect to have any safe haven from cis people being fucking obsessed with the genitals of trans people.

And like no I don't like having to explain this every time because it's exhausting and because I don't get listened to and because I shouldn't have to explain this shit in the first place. "Don't be fucking weird about a trans person's genitals" should be pretty basic behavior that you don't need someone to explain to you.

rpgdemon

06-18-2015, 04:31 PM

Even if you have no experience with trans people, "Don't be fucking weird about a person's genitals" shouldn't really need to be said ever.

Like, it is really not your business to decide if you like or dislike someone's genitals. You're also being a creep who says something like, "Man, I am fantasizing about your genitals being different because I don't really care about you outside of your sexual appeal to me." There are many related statements you can make, that have nothing to do directly with genitals, and they are all no good. Don't fantasize about someone's personal and/or private business, and especially don't fantasize about changing their personal and/or private business.

There's this really weird creepy thing that a lot of people do, where they feel like because they're sexually-responsible/mature adults who are comfortable with sex, they have license to fetishize everything and talk openly about it. They feel like it's just prudish behavior or something not to do so, and they're enlightened and mature? Whatever the logic, it's just straight up not a cool thing to do, because discomfort from it has nothing to do with being a prude, and everything to do with what you're actually doing and saying about other people.

shiney

06-18-2015, 04:51 PM

The forum title bullshit mountain has never been more apt.

rpgdemon

06-18-2015, 04:57 PM

lol this forum

http://i.imgur.com/2CQ317E.gif

The forum title bullshit mountain has never been more apt.

So, like, what the actual fuck.

Are you people seriously saying that you'd rather be allowed to fetishize transgender peeps without reproach than have her Kim here as a friend and comfortable in this forum?

Fucking hell you are all being incredibly terrible, and since the mod staff doesn't seem to give a shit I'm just going to call you out on it.

Kim

06-18-2015, 04:58 PM

I legit have no idea what you're trying to convey by your posts Shiney and Fenris and I'd like some clarification and what you're intending to contribute by your behavior.

synkr0nized

06-18-2015, 05:58 PM

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106579376/cispeople.png

This is a great example of passive-aggressive behavior. It's pretty clear who's who. If you were truly intending to, like, leave it anonymous it could have been done better. Instead you're, what, not fully committing to publicly shaming?

Even if you have no experience with trans people, "Don't be fucking weird about a person's genitals" shouldn't really need to be said ever.

This is a pretty reasonable sentiment -- i.e. "Hey, our chat could do with less creepin'". Full stop. No gender or genitals even need to specifically be noted.

Like, it is really not your business to decide if you like or dislike someone's genitals.

This, however, is kind of a dumb claim to make. Everyone forms opinions about everything. For many, a lust and/or physical attraction to potential mates is one of those things, often including body type and features.

The rest of your post just seems to hinge on this without really adding anything, so I'd say the point could have been made better. That point -- not to put words in your mouth, though I guess that's what's happening here -- that creepin' is pretty shitty.

What you did was fetishize a trans woman character because of her genitals. Or rather, because of the genitals you wanted her to have.

Really? Someone stating that having or not having something being fine with him or her equates to wanting to force a person to have specific genitals?

This basically puts you on the same level as the rude creeps I had to deal with working as a camgirl.

Let's stop the train here for a second. You've mentioned this before, and while I have not seen what you do (did?) in this context I am just assuming it's as the name implies -- you appeared on camera and made money from folks watching you (streaming live? recorded?). In any case, it's a job where people pay you to look at you. But while you want to do that, the people looking at you aren't supposed to form opinions about your appearance?

Perhaps I am reading too much into your comments and you're only talking about the rude and inconsiderate folks I am sure you and others deal with regularly in a cam chat and not actually implying that anyone/everyone who has opinions about your appearance is a creep.

our sexual value to others is so heavily on reliant on whether or not we still have a part of our body many of us want removed.

While unfortunate -- and you can choose to not believe me if you desire, but I really do empathize with the hurt I see in your post, especially here -- I'd be surprised if a large number of people, globally regardless of culture, don't place any significance on genitals when considering sexual partners.

The rest of this spirals off chat comments that, without having been in the chat to see anything other than what has been posted, don't even seem to imply most of what is being attributed to them.

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 06:16 PM

This is a great example of passive-aggressive behavior. It's pretty clear who's who. If you were truly intending to, like, leave it anonymous it could have been done better. Instead you're, what, not fully committing to publicly shaming?

This is pretty much the only point in which you articulated disagreement with Kim where I agree with you and disagree with Kim (or well, something Kim did.) Just going to clarify that from the get-go.

Kim: You probably should have just considered also erasing the first letters of everyone's names when you blackened out the rest? Not doing so gave me the impression that you wanted me to know exactly who said what (as it was devilishly easy to fill in the blanks) while maintaining the illusion of preserving their anonymity.

This, however, is kind of a dumb claim to make. Everyone forms opinions about everything. For many, a lust and/or physical attraction to potential mates is one of those things, often including body type and features.

I feel like the entire point of expressing adequate empathy for transgendered persons is to not evaluate your attraction to them based on the 'features' you presume are or are not present.

Or maybe, like: Just don't talk about it? I mean, I don't think any transgendered person is asking you to stop desiring or lusting after dicks, or vaginas, or whatever the fuck it is you're into. But claiming, even indirectly, that you are or are not attracted to said individuals strictly on the basis of genitalia is exactly the wrong message to send. Like, if that's actually true, and that's how you feel, why not just keep that to yourselves, as opposed to making transgendered people feel shitty by sheer virtue of being born with or without certain parts they do or do not desire?

Like you're basically saying either (1) "I am attracted to you but only because you have you a part you don't identify with that contradicts your true gender," OR (2) "I am not attracted to you only because I refuse to associate you with the gender you state you are because you don't have that part I want."

Both those things are really shitty things to say out loud. If you feel that's a dealbreaker in your heart and you'd never date someone who didn't match your desired genitalia, again, no one can force you to feel otherwise, but maybe don't explicitly tell transgendered individuals in a public chat room that you actually feel that way.

Does this make any sense to anyone other than me? Because I feel like it's common courtesy 101, really. Or maybe just like, basic human empathy 101.

Kim

06-18-2015, 06:25 PM

And this class is why you should never bother trying to educate cis people.

synkr0nized

06-18-2015, 06:30 PM

T
Does this make any sense to anyone other than me? Because I feel like it's common courtesy 101, really. Or maybe just like, basic human empathy 101.

Duh
That is why I explicitly agreed with rpg's initial statement. It shouldn't matter if it's skinny or fat, tall or short, blonde or brunette, glasses or not, vagina or penis, etc. You don't need to be sitting around in a public chat expressing your festishes.

But then he makes the claim that people shouldn't even have those opinions. That's just unrealistic.

And this class is why you should never bother trying to educate cis people.

tumblr.txt

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 06:42 PM

Duh
That is why I explicitly agreed with rpg's initial statement. It shouldn't matter if it's skinny or fat, tall or short, blonde or brunette, glasses or not, vagina or penis, etc. You don't need to be sitting around in a public chat expressing your festishes.

But then he makes the claim that people shouldn't even have those opinions. That's just unrealistic.

I'm going to assume that you're addressing RPG there.

But, I dunno? I think it's kind of duplicitous as a cis person to claim to be an ally to the transgender community or even just remotely sympathetic to their journeys to be recognized as their true gender, and then refuse to actually acknowledge their true gender by refusing outright to be attracted to any of them until they've had a certain operation on certain physical body parts.

I mean, at that point, you're basically indirectly depriving them of their actual gender, by associating them with another gender solely based on their 'equipment.' You're saying you don't view them as 'fully women' (if you're attracted to women and addressing a transgendered woman) or 'fully men' (if you're attracted to men and addressing a transgendered man.)

Mind you, I struggled with this too, because even after initially identifying as a progressive I went through a period in my own walk as an LGBT ally where I struggled with viewing an attraction to a transgendered woman as 'gay' on the basis of her potentially having a penis or some shit. (This position now strikes me as awful but I will readily concede, it took me a while to realize why it was awful.)

But eventually you realize it's pretty abhorrent to claim you view those individuals as the gender they proclaim they've always been but then turn around and say "But no, I actually refuse to personally view you as that gender in the context of any potential attraction to you."

For me personally, eventually I just reached a point intellectually where it was like: If I'm going to adhere to the position that transgendered women are in fact women, I should be attracted to them on the sheer basis of them being women and me having a sexual identity that's attracted to women. The parts seem practically ancillary. Who here among us is strictly or exclusively attracted to genitalia? Hell, we don't even see the genitalia of 99.99999% of the people we meet in everyday life, it certainly seems an ancillary component of attraction in general.

Anyway, I'm assuming Kim's comment may also be directed at me, and if so, I apologize if I'm just indirectly reinforcing my cis privilege with these arguments, Kim.

rpgdemon

06-18-2015, 06:46 PM

No one's saying that you can't decide which genitals you do or don't like, and it is a gross oversimplification / straw man argument to say that it is the point being made. What you can't do is you can't decide if you like or dislike what someone else's are. It's THEIR genitals, not yours. It's not your place to care about it, because it has zero impact on your life at all. Unless you plan to sleep with them, you never have to deal with someone else's genitals. If you plan to sleep with them I'd hope you have enough respect for them not to make them feel like shit for the genitals that they were born with and can't control. If not, you just might be a jerk.

Is that any clearer?

synkr0nized

06-18-2015, 06:51 PM

But, I dunno? I think it's kind of duplicitous as a cis person to claim to be an ally to the transgender community or even just remotely sympathetic to their journeys to be recognized as their true gender, and then refuse to actually acknowledge their true gender by refusing outright to be attracted to any of them until they've had a certain operation on certain physical body parts.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me sexual compatibility isn't a direct correlation with gender. I mean, while an individual personally may be open to varying degrees to whatever mechanics may or may not be involved with a partner, globally I don't equate that to whether or not someone is a man or a woman. So I guess if you're making that leap -- that to have a preference means you don't acknowledge gender identity -- whenever someone has a preference you've lost me.

rpg: I may be taking your words too literally, since I don't think we disagree on the core point.

Kim

06-18-2015, 07:00 PM

When the admin of this forum writes off a trans woman being upset with the behavior of others with a "trigger" joke, and then writes off that trans person being fed up with having to explain shit to cis people who don't listen regardless with "tumblr.txt" I think it's safe to say this forum isn't a safe space for trans people and never has been. It's an unsafe space that trans people tolerate because not everyone here is a complete piece of shit and because we were here before we came out as trans.

Synk is a cissplaining transphobic asshat and the forum is worse for their influence.

I can't wait for the day this forum dies and nobody ever has to deal with pieces of shit like this again.

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 07:02 PM

So I guess if you're making that leap -- that to have a preference means you don't acknowledge gender identity -- whenever someone has a preference you've lost me.

I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to make the leap you're insinuating I'm making, but I do think that having a non-negotiable requirement (which, to be blunt, is NOT just a preference) for particular genitalia in a sexual partner effectively results in viewing transgendered as [I]less than cisgendered individuals on a sheer basis of body parts.

I mean in a hypothetical circumstance, you could meet a transgendered person you had phenomenal chemistry with, be really attracted to nearly everything about her, get to know her really well, then the moment you find out she has the 'wrong part' for you, you're going to call that off and nip that relationship in the bud? I don't think you'd actually do that in that hypothetical scenario. And if you did, that strikes me as kind of...weird? Yeah, I'd even just say 'Wrong.'

Again, I can't force you to personally be attracted or unattracted to anything, sexual preferences are entirely within the realm of personal choice, but it strikes me as a potentially problematic position to take nonetheless.

Marc v4.0

06-18-2015, 07:06 PM

tumblr.txt

I think Kim hit it right on the head, but I feel the need to echo that this is one of the most disgustingly disrespectful things I've seen on here in a good while. It couldn't be any clearer that you care more about the opinions of the cis people trying to explain things to you than the person with every right to be disgusted expressing such.

Next time don't be a fucking coward and just outright say that you think a person's view is worth mockery and dismissal.

shiney

06-18-2015, 07:21 PM

"Dear cis people" is hardly a constructive way to start a dialogue, and peppering the discussion with direct insults toward cis people who do still compromise most of the forum is itself not constructive nor will it result in any kind of receptive audience.

I really thought we were past the system of "insult everyone, then expect them to apologize" but I guess not. I've undergone a lot of effort to understand your world and how people like you feel, but you insulted me too, and everyone else, in your tirades in this thread. I didn't do anything to you, but I'm lumped in.

So frankly, I'm tired of it. I'm tired of feeling like I should feel bad because of what someone else said to you, when I am otherwise an ally and I stand up for trans rights and argue against bigotry. I was less...enlightened in the past, and have tried to make amends, but apparently as far as you are concerned those efforts are worthless and pointless.

This is a problem, for you, for me, and for all members of the community both trans and cis. So long as you continue to generalize, and include people like me who try to be an ally but apparently aren't enough of an ally, then you're going to continue to feel isolated and angry.

I'm sorry that what people said in chat ended up hurting you. Your response, making a public shame thread to insult and belittle cis people, probably ended up hurting more.

I can't wait for the day this forum dies and nobody ever has to deal with pieces of shit like this again.

I don't even know what to say to this because it fills me with pain and rage too, and makes me want to say hurtful things. I'm not going to. But thanks for recognizing the efforts of some of us to do better than we have in the past. Thanks a fucking lot.

synkr0nized

06-18-2015, 07:23 PM

Next time don't be a fucking coward

OK

Kim, I think everything is either black or white with you, and whenever something doesn't agree with your point of view it's automatically put into the "cis scum" category.

When you post outright dismissals, don't be surprised when someone returns in kind.

However in so doing I have directly violated the tone and flaming rules of the forum and, as such, the mod staff should act accordingly.

Kim

06-18-2015, 07:24 PM

You're a shit ally Shiney

and synk you started off by mocking my post with a trigger joke you were never interested in anything but laughing at the tranny and arguing with me so dont even start

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 07:26 PM

I don't even know what to say to this because it fills me with pain and rage too, and makes me want to say hurtful things. I'm not going to. But thanks for recognizing the efforts of some of us to do better than we have in the past. Thanks a fucking lot.

Like, 99.99% of my indignation with your atrocious post...and I hope you can feel it Shiney, as far as you are physically from me right now...is in you pretending that your precious feelings as a 'reformed' privileged progressive man who intends to be a 'better person' is somehow more important than Kim being free from an oppressive atmosphere of bigotry against her identity.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------

OK
When you post outright dismissals, don't be surprised when someone returns in kind.

I actually thought at first that you were just being dismissive because I didn't know what 'tumblr.txt' referred to.
When I was enlightened on the full context of what you were referencing, jeezus buddy, that's not merely apathetic dismissal, that's outright hostile transphobia.

At least be honest with yourself there.

akaSM

06-18-2015, 07:31 PM

WTF is this? I've been on 4chan for a few months and, there's a lot less drama there.

synkr0nized

06-18-2015, 07:31 PM

I actually thought at first that you were just being dismissive because I didn't know what 'tumblr.txt' referred to.
When I was enlightened on the full context of what you were referencing, jeezus buddy, that's not merely apathetic dismissal, that's outright hostile transphobia.

At least be honest with yourself there.

Referencing?

Oh

Holy fuck

"tumblr.txt" is actually a thing and not just me equating Kim's dimissal of cis people with a similar dismissal?

OK, a Google search has shown me a Twitter account with that name that is just as you say.

No words can express an appropriate apology -- I mean, yes, I was being an ass, but I was intending for it to be on the level of that which I was replying to. Instead I have connected to a whole other level.

I've got nothing I can say to make up for that.

shiney

06-18-2015, 07:36 PM

You know what I just gave my last fuck.

Peace.

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 07:41 PM

Like, can we walk through all the awful shit buried in Shiney's text here? Because it's an awful lot of really agonizingly ugly shit.

"Dear cis people" is hardly a constructive way to start a dialogue, and peppering the discussion with direct insults toward cis people who do still compromise most of the forum is itself not constructive nor will it result in any kind of receptive audience.

1: "Cis people are the majority of people here, therefore you shouldn't insult them, while I'll allow cis people to inadvertently insult trans people all the time because they're a minority here" is the kind of atrocious logic I'd expect on a conservative webforum attacking transgendered individuals for merely existing. Or like, the kind of argument used to justify oppressing anyone who's 'different' from the majority.

2: "You're a minority both in real life and on this forum so shut the fuck up and just accept the fact that we'll inadvertently offend you quite often, what matters is that you understand WE DIDN'T INTEND to hurt your feelings!"
I've seen that logic used before against Token re: race, Pocheros re: sex, and Kim re: transgendered individuals.
It's always fucking atrocious every time.

I really thought we were past the system of "insult everyone, then expect them to apologize" but I guess not. I've undergone a lot of effort to understand your world and how people like you feel, but you insulted me too, and everyone else, in your tirades in this thread. I didn't do anything to you, but I'm lumped in.

3: "NOT ALL CISGENDEREDS!"
Oh fuck my life, this is the exact kind of logic that trips privileged cisgendereds into defending the assholes who just so happen to share their conforming gender identity. (It also trips up heterosexuals into defending bigoted heterosexuals, men into defending rapists and sexual abusers...)

Kim is directing her anger at cisgendereds as a social class, not at you or any other cisgendered person individually. She probably wasn't even angry at POS or Overcast specifically but just recognized that their kind of shitty logic in the forums is often abused by people in privilege. She's reacting to a massive group of people who all are insensitive about an issue they do not understand. SHE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU, SHINEY, SPECIFICALLY, EVEN THOUGH YOU ALSO IDENTIFY AS CISGENDERED.
...Well, until you say stupid transphobic shit, then all the sudden I guess it *does* apply to you, specifically.

So frankly, I'm tired of it. I'm tired of feeling like I should feel bad because of what someone else said to you, when I am otherwise an ally and I stand up for trans rights and argue against bigotry. I was less...enlightened in the past, and have tried to make amends, but apparently as far as you are concerned those efforts are worthless and pointless.

4: Intent is not magic.
INTENT IS NOT MAGIC.
YOU ARE NOT IMMUNIZED FROM CONSEQUENCES OF SAYING SHITTY OFFENSIVE THINGS JUST BECAUSE YOU DID NOT INTEND TO INSULT ANYONE.

Hell, 95% of the most awful things privileged cisgendered individuals do to oppress transgendered individuals in the aggregate is on a subconscious, institutionalized level. It's often not about you intending harm. It's Kim pointing out the harm your objectively awful, subconscious bullshit is inflicting upon her, in hopes that you will stop doing it.

If Kim genuinely thought you WOULDN'T STOP DOING IT because you WANTED TO OFFEND HER ALL ALONG, she would never have created this fucking thread in the first place, right?

EDIT:

Like, let me try to calm down for a second.

The key to social justice issues in the context of this community that's so often missed is that we make it -- myself included, I've done this too! -- all about whether those who've pointed out objectively awful things we've said and done as a result of our privilege hate our guts

Because we privileged people are taking their criticism of our offensive comments as personal attacks
And I've been there too, and I've done that too, it's only natural
But it isn't a fucking personal attack
IT IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, IT IS AN ATTACK AGAINST YOUR PRIVILEGE
At least it isn't until you make it personal by responding as if your honor as a person has been infringed
Then you make that shit personal

Kim

06-18-2015, 07:46 PM

just as an fyi like five different trans people other than me have looked at this thread and been absolutely disgusted with synk and shiney et al's behavior just in case you think you're somehow handling trans shit even remotely well. like hell of an ally to get pissy with a trans woman for "generalizing cis people". hell of an ally if the people you're allegedly an ally to think you're basically being the worst.

shiney

06-18-2015, 07:48 PM

I don't even care anymore Kim. I'm checked out now. I'm a shit ally, so you won't miss me.

Good luck with your fight, I'll still be supporting the movement, but I will no longer support you.

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 07:51 PM

Man I can't even blame Kim anymore if she responded to all this by hating all cis people.
We've all let her down, all of us, we've let her down for years, and we've let Token and Pocheros and Terex and a whole bunch of other people [who are not as privileged as we are in certain respects] down, and it's systemic and it's ugly and NPF is rotten and maybe I have to accept that even I appear to be part of the problem rather than the solution, because it's continually happened as I've continued to associate here, and all I can do is pretend to be surprised every time.

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

06-18-2015, 08:38 PM

Because we privileged people are taking their criticism of our offensive comments as personal attacks
And I've been there too, and I've done that too, it's only natural
But it isn't a fucking personal attack
IT IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, IT IS AN ATTACK AGAINST YOUR PRIVILEGE
At least it isn't until you make it personal by responding as if your honor as a person has been infringed
Then you make that shit personal

As much as I can agree with the sentiment that a call out against or attack on privilege is/should not be taken personally... it totally fucking seems like from the getgo Kim was making personal attacks in this thread. By starting this thread the way she did, even.

This thread was not addressed to "Cisgendereds as a social class". It was pretty fucking specifically targeted at a select few people and the way in which she chose to address the situation, rather than even attempt to just say "This is making me feel uncomfortable" while right there as the three or so lines of conversation that this is about unfolded was to publicly (Despite the very obviously half-assed attempt to censor names) call them out.

Kim

06-18-2015, 08:51 PM

I don't hate all cis people tho, Snake. Never have. I mean I'm dating two of them. But like if I've had a really bad experience and am upset Sweet Dutsi knows that my moments of clinging to her and saying "I hate cis people" aren't about her but about the behavior of cis people in the abstract and the ways they reinforce my oppression and the oppression of others who aren't cis. And I have a lot of friends who get that even if they aren't trans. Meanwhile here I say, "Hey cis people don't do this thing," and Shiney and others act like fucking backwards rednecks because they decided to take it personally instead of you know listening to what a trans woman was saying about cis behavior.

And honestly I'm so fed up with this forum right now and the people in it and I really didn't want to have to come make this post, but I think Snake's bit of "I couldn't blame Kim for hating all cis people" kinda sealed the deal of me needing to. I appreciate that you're angry on my behalf Snake. I really do. But the bulk of this whole argument boils down to "Fucking listen to what trans people have to say about this shit," because that's such a low bar that even Synk and Shiney should be able to meet it and I feel like you're spending a lot of time talking for me and being angry for me and that doesn't really help me or the situation.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

If shiney wants to know why i called him a shit ally, its because you dont get to decide if you're an ally or not. that's up to the people you're allegedly an ally to. and any "ally" who decides to bring up their ally status in response to their feelings being hurt by something as innocuous as "cis people don't do this" is using that status as leverage against the person they're "ally" to.

About the censoring, if you think this is the first time I've ever had this experience or the last time, you're up your ass. This shit is everyone and half the fucking time I can't even speak up about it without being harassed for literally days on end. So no, I wasn't trying to make an example. I left the first letter so you could tell which "letter" said which thing, which was important to being able to follow the snippet of conversation. It wasn't to make an example and more to 1. help those in that snippet realize they'd been fucking shitheads and 2. serve as something to keep in mind so maybe I don't have to deal with this shit in these forums yet again.

But nah Fenris and Raem and Shiney and Synk all decided to be fucking shitheads and frnakly Synk is a transphobic bigoted fuck. So like nah. Y'all are shit allies and can jump in a lake.

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

06-18-2015, 08:54 PM

Solid Snake

06-18-2015, 08:55 PM

And honestly I'm so fed up with this forum right now and the people in it and I really didn't want to have to come make this post, but I think Snake's bit of "I couldn't blame Kim for hating all cis people" kinda sealed the deal of me needing to.

Well, uhh, there is a slight distinction between "I couldn't blame Kim for hating all cis people" (which asserts that I know you do feel that way, and which would be inappropriate for me to allege) and
Man I can't even blame Kim anymore if she responded to all this by hating all cis people.

Just in the extremely narrow context of me not expressing that you do necessarily have those feelings (which, after all, I argued against you having back when that's how Shiney et al interpreted it-->)

Kim is directing her anger at cisgendereds as a social class, not at you or any other cisgendered person individually. She probably wasn't even angry at POS or Overcast specifically but just recognized that their kind of shitty logic in the forums is often abused by people in privilege. She's reacting to a massive group of people who all are insensitive about an issue they do not understand.

...But rather arguing that I wouldn't be shocked if you theoretically, hypothetically, not-in-reality responded to all this BS by articulating a hatred for all cis people. Not because you actually do literally hate them, but like, it was in the context of all kinds of cis people here, including myself, disappointing you with our privileged bullshit.

I feel like you're spending a lot of time talking for me and being angry for me and that doesn't really help me or the situation.

...All right, that's a fair criticism.
I just thought you'd appreciate the idea of a cis friend stickin' up for you when so many others here were shitting on you but I think maybe I passed some sort of line a while back or somethin', specifically in the context that I shouldn't try to channel your anger at things I only experience as abstractions or that I only experience when I witness your own reactions to awful BS

Kim

06-18-2015, 08:56 PM

I don't mind you sticking up for me in fact I appreciate it I just ask that you be mindful of how you do it.

Marc v4.0

06-18-2015, 09:03 PM

Kim you're a constant misery to engage with and I really do just wish you would go because holy fucking shit how many years has it been of threatening to do it now and it's just been an apparent endless rollercoaster of pain for everyone involved because of that.

Like you're talking about this not being your first experience? It damn sure fuckin' ain't for Synk, Shiney or Fenris either. They, (Well we, frankly.) have all had the experience of this. This thread, the way you acted in it. Whatever.

Yeah I'm sure having to read these threads is the same as literally being mass-harassed for a week at a time every time you speak up in public places about something shitty being done to you/your friends.

The insults, the stalking, the creative methods which people find to force you to read or see terrible things just because you asked to be treated like a human being absolutely weigh the same as the burden of having to get involved in yet another thread where someone is justifiably upset their identity is being treated like shit yet again. Ho boy, do I have a lot of sympathy for you...

Aerozord

06-18-2015, 09:21 PM

I hesitate to even say anything, especially since my views on concepts of gender are pretty disliked by both sides of the argument.

But I think I can relate to how you feel in general Kim. I have dealt my entire life being rejected by what many would consider "normal", shunned by my peers, my differences treated like I am a "sink person that needs to be healed". To this day dealing with a disturbing number of people that wish for the extermination of people like me. As a result I went through a time where I coped with hate and prejudice.

What I have learned however is things need to start with me, meeting hate with hate gets you nowhere and I have to be tolerant of others ignorance. Sometimes people will unintentionally insult you, sometimes they will intentionally insult you. But you need to relax and well just talk about issues. Remember opinions will vary, and it takes a LONG time to completely remove prejudice. Perfectly ok to continue fighting for equality and understanding but sad fact is you have to accept things will offend you. Its just going to happen, cant let it get to you so much.

View it just as noise to filter out, something to pity more than despise.

Do keep in mind I'm saying this as just general life stuff. For all I know you do that already and you just vent here as a safe place to vent. But if thats the case a secondary outlet might be good as its typically not a good idea to vent about people in a public space those same people frequent. It can make the environment even more toxic

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

06-18-2015, 09:45 PM

Yeah I'm sure having to read these threads is the same as literally being mass-harassed for a week at a time every time you speak up in public places about something shitty being done to you/your friends.

The insults, the stalking, the creative methods which people find to force you to read or see terrible things just because you asked to be treated like a human being absolutely weigh the same as the burden of having to get involved in yet another thread where someone is justifiably upset their identity is being treated like shit yet again. Ho boy, do I have a lot of sympathy for you...

That's exactly what I said. Thanks for reading my post back to me.

Marc v4.0

06-18-2015, 09:58 PM

That's exactly what I said. Thanks for reading my post back to me.

I was being sarcastic, there is not a thing to compare equally between the two presented situations and you goddamn know it.

Boo fucking hoo, you can't get over the fact that a minority voice refuses to just be silent about shitty behaviors within the community. Comparing that as being 'as bad' as being stalked and harassed is intentionally just being an asshole for the sake of it.

Kim

06-18-2015, 10:59 PM

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

06-18-2015, 11:23 PM

I was being sarcastic, there is not a thing to compare equally between the two presented situations and you goddamn know it.

I've never seen sarcasm before, thanks for explaining.

POS Industries

06-18-2015, 11:41 PM

I don't even care anymore Kim. I'm checked out now. I'm a shit ally, so you won't miss me.

Good luck with your fight, I'll still be supporting the movement, but I will no longer support you.
Yeah man, poor you.

You are the real victim here.

Overcast

06-18-2015, 11:42 PM

I think that I can understand to a certain degree, but I do find myself having a little trouble. I'm glad you finally took the time to respond, as aggressive as it was, simply because it gives me a much better idea of what I am looking at and how I should be feeling.

The ultimate gender of Poison I'll admit means nothing, in the context of fanservice I had a preference, which I made clear. The chat had its long standing moments of perversion and it just seemed like I was riding the wave again, but it pushed a button for you. I know you likely do actually care about the whole Poison concept, it is a representation of something you've put a lot of yourself to, but I somehow feel that even this response is because there are a lot more and worse things digging at you right now.

Everyone here isn't making that easier I imagine. Even people who are supporting you are doing it in a kinda antagonistic way.

But if you can try to disconnect a little from the moment I want you to understand that I don't think that those issues are going to have a net effect on what makes me aroused. Particularly if it is with someone who isn't going through the same things you are, and doesn't share the same sensitivities. Depending on the artist that could well be Poison. I am willing to acknowledge those sensitivities though, draw the line we do not cross to help us keep rolling.

Fenris

06-19-2015, 08:23 AM

So, like, what the actual fuck.

Are you people seriously saying that you'd rather be allowed to fetishize transgender peeps without reproach than have her Kim here as a friend and comfortable in this forum?If Kim is able to talk about whatever fetishes or whatever in chat all the goddamn time, anybody else is able to talk about theirs. There's a difference between talking about a fictional character and talking about a real person. Whoever's name was poorly censored in the original post was not discussing a real person, and I really have very little sympathy for Kim in regards to how uncomfortable other people discussing their fetishes make her when she unabashedly and relentlessly makes other people uncomfortable (including myself) talking about hers.

Note that I am not claiming to be a victim, but I'm also not seeing Kim as a victim in this instance, either.

IF the person were talking specifically about fetishizing Kim, then that would be different. But they weren't so it's not.
I legit have no idea what you're trying to convey by your posts Shiney and Fenris and I'd like some clarification and what you're intending to contribute by your behavior.

I am obviously calling everybody on this forum an angry cat.

Inbred Chocobo

06-19-2015, 08:45 AM

Just because you are offended, that doesn't make you right.

This applies to everyone forever.

MSperoni

06-19-2015, 01:08 PM

But everyone has the right to be offended.

Here's my two (probably stupid) cents after having looked over this thread and after having thought about it for a day or so. This may contradict some things I said behind the scenes in Mod Headquarters, but I've been under a massive amount of work/stress lately and my head wasn't as clear then:

Kim being offended by the fetishization of trans people is unsurprising and totally okay. For what it's worth, I really don't have a problem with her initial post or the title of this thread.

In fact I wouldn't have had a major problem with it had she not censored out the names. Maybe that makes me a privacy invading jerkass, but whatever.

Trans people are beautiful for who they are, and oggling over them in such a weirdly specific way is pretty darn creepy, IMO.

I dunno if this is apples to oranges (it probably is), but it sorta feels in the same vein as fetishizing Asians. It's skeevy and dehumanizing.

I don't feel Kim is obligated to provide the forum with an education regarding trans issues, nor offer details why she is offended. It'd be great if she could, because it could lead to a dialog, but otherwise, nope.

Not our business to get up in someone else's business. No one's entitled to nothin'.

The internet is at our fingertips, and I'm sure it can provide many sources useful for enlightening the subject of trans issues.

If someone in chat is offended by the way chat is going, they're totally free to say "Hey, I don't like the way chat is going, please stop".

And personally I'd like to think we'd stop or at least attempt to make some adjustments.

(I mean, I threatened to ban Skweeb and Snake for making fun of my name in chat and that's off-the-charts unjustified compared to what Kim did here. I'm really not in a position to wag my finger at anyone regarding how "rational" their behaviour in chat ought to be)

Making threads that open with a sweeping admonishment of a group of people (cis or otherwise) is hard not to take personally if you fall into that particular group of people.

But we have to remember that it's not a personal attack on an individual. It's a criticism on the common behaviour of a privileged group over a non-privileged group.

This thread is about a trans person offering an example of something the trans-community finds offensive and asking cis folks to consider stopping doing those things.

So cispeeps, should maybe, like, consider stopping?

I don't think Kim and the five other people she had look over the thread represent the entire trans community (Then again I'm not a trans person, and am in no way qualified to evaluate the trans community). But if Kim is being true to her word that they all found it offensive then I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it probably was offensive.

Now, that being said, we do post a lot of hentai/real-life porn in chat. POS and I talk about Skullgirls and waifus and DOA jigglies. Snake and I have arguments about which of us should be Chie's boyfriend. Kim's posted links to some particularly tasty hentai tidbits (like the page where you thought it looked like my style, or that picture of Chubby Princess Peach that inspired me to create a character in The Dreadful).

Posting a link to a hentai manga, saying Valentine is hot, and being in love with Chie feels different than making a bunch of weirdly specific comments about an individual's/character's private parts.

(I'm sorry that I can't put why it feels different into words, but it does)

And, call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure had Kim been posting hentai images into chat and one of us been like "Hey yo, please stop" Kim would have stopped.

I love everyone here, (especially you, yes you), so it'd be nice to see us working our problems out and not being assholes to each other but that seems pretty hard.

I really don't want this place to die, but maybe it should change a little.

Maybe we should eliminate news/political threads entirely and focus purely on entertainment topics like games, comics, and movies?

I dunno, just spitballing, and it's off-topic spitballing that I should do in another thread.

Okay, that's my two cents! It's my mom's birthday today so I'm gonna go spend some time with her.

See ya later, NPF, try not to burn down while I'm gone :D

P.S Snake, you're one of my Top NPF Homies, but could you please stop with the whole giant font thing? It's difficult to focus on the body of your beautiful Snake-posts when GIANT LETTERS are drawing the attention.

pochercoaster

06-19-2015, 03:14 PM

I tried to rep Matt but my phone browser won't let me and I'm too lazy to use my computer.

Overcast

06-19-2015, 04:24 PM

No disagreements from me Matt. If you read what I've written thus far I've been on that train for a bit. I never demanded an explanation, I simply asked because hearing stuff like that really helps me get some perspective on what I feel, and in chat when the request was made for things to shift gears, I did in short order.

I stand by the fact that whatever floats my boat is my business, but like I said before if what I enjoy crosses the line for someone I'm happy to keep it to myself.

I'd appreciate if people tell me when I do, tell me why it messes with them, but I'm not obligated background and I'll stop when asked.

Meanwhile, we have certainly tried to get rid of discussion like this in the forum before Matt, but it has failed to stick so far. Sooner or later someone talks about something somewhere and it rises back to the surface. The best we can hope for is that we are actually able to talk ourselves to the middle.

Solid Snake

06-19-2015, 08:59 PM

P.S Snake, you're one of my Top NPF Homies, but could you please stop with the whole giant font thing? It's difficult to focus on the body of your beautiful Snake-posts when GIANT LETTERS are drawing the attention.

Totally fair request. I'll stop doing that.

But I'm still going to bold and italicize for emphasis, hope you're cool with that.

(Also Chie is totally my girlfriend Matt, you haven't even played Persona 4 yet)

EDIT: I'm also going to go out on a limb and say I really wish you posted more often on SJ issues Matt, I mean I understand why you and any other sane person would tend to avoid these arguments like a plague, particularly on NPF when they become toxic so fast, but your level-headed perspective is a breath of fresh air, and while we may disagree on specifics there's broad agreement with your general points, which you have a surprisingly nuanced and subtle way of simultaneously advancing without needlessly offending anyone.

Good job, bro.

Terex4

06-21-2015, 02:04 PM

Before launching into this, I want to put out there that it's always a bigger blow to face ignorance from friends and allies than it is from strangers and our detractors. We expect it from them.

Here's what I'm seeing and how I feel about this:

Trans representation has historically been awful (and that's a gross understatement). Poison is a character that is supposed to help us feel included, which is wonderful, but the success of such an endeavor relies both on the character creator's ability to write and present the character properly, and everyone else responding to her appropriately. This has been a major struggle and, even though there has been an upswing of better-portrayed trans characters, I tend to avoid seeing for myself because our history of being cheap jokes has left me with little desire to try to hope. It's important that we're able to have this.

In my experience, most binary trans people (that is trans men and trans women) are easily triggered by issues involving genitalia. I'm very much included in this and giving a trans woman, who is supposed to represent me, a bulge would piss me off to no end. People's personal preferences aside, having it suggested that it would be okay, much less favorable for a representative character to be presented with such a common, major trigger is insensitive at its absolute best.

After additional thought on the bulge thing, I have to put out there that tucking is totally a thing damn near all of us do so why would a bulge be visible for any reason?

Genitalia in particular is a trigger we have to deal with multiple times a day, every day (I really want to emphasize how big of a trigger this is. Seriously it's terrible having to deal with this). It's always the question I'm asked after "I don't want to offend you but I heard you're one of those transgendered people."

It's a question of when it will induce a frothing rage, not if. Being fetishized is the common reality in which we live. We still have to function despite it and even if we play into it here and there, that doesn't mean we have to like it.

So all of this needs to be taken into account when looking at how we react to these situations. All of us react in different magnitudes to different things. I can look at that conversation and my response is "fucking really?" while it seems to hit Kim a lot more strongly. I sure as hell have my triggers that'll have me spitting nails, they just haven't come up yet.

I want to make sure that last statement isn't confused. Things like this Poison conversation still hit me, very much so, they just don't send me over the edge. There are topics and sentiments that will do that instantly though.

Overcast

06-21-2015, 03:46 PM

Never faulted the reaction, just wanted to understand. That last post did a much better job of stating it clearly than what I have had a chance to read so far. I'm able to connect it to some of my own personal triggers for my own general triggers. It helps cement the connection between the trigger itself and Poison as a character. Most of all it helps me know the location of the line for you guys.

With that much put out I am sorry for crossing it. There is a degree of things in me still beyond sympathy to stop, but I can at least respect this.

Kim

06-21-2015, 03:50 PM

Thanks for the apology, Overcast. And thanks for the posts from Matt and RPG and Terex. <3 It means a lot to me that while plenty of people were mad at me, Overcast probably had the best justification to be mad at me in this thread and kept their cool, so thank you.

Overcast

06-21-2015, 08:35 PM

I'm willing to own up to anything that I did that messes with someone else. That isn't a fun thing and I don't usually intend to do it. When I do I just want to know the background about it, helps me develop my sense of perspective. And I've seen you when you are angry Kim, I figure getting to that background comes with the price of a few prickly words.

akaSM

06-21-2015, 09:42 PM

See? We can have nice things after all :)

phil_

06-21-2015, 10:14 PM

It's the power of Koume and her unlimited cuteness.

Also empathy and stuff.

Overcast

06-21-2015, 11:15 PM

Hee, I'll admit that I amusingly thought of your signature when I was thinking up what I could say to try to keep this on the track I wanted. We should all be T-rexcellent to each other, tako.

Glass Pencil

06-23-2015, 12:08 AM

Kim, I don't really know you despite orbiting the same digital space for, what, I don't know, almost a decade now? More? But shit, you're an asshole.

I mean I get why, to a certain extent. But that doesn't change what you are. Someone ostensibly consumed by rage, looking for convenient outlets to brutalize. You've internalized your negative experiences and now view the world through a lens in which you are the sole arbiter of righteousness, necessarily and immutably infallible in your judgments.

That doesn't strike me as a very healthy way to live, regardless of your personal circumstances or life choices. No real reason for me to say any of this shit other than I can't stand bullies.

Chances are that you were always an asshole. It's not due to some unresolved gender identity issue, its not because of the prejudice you've faced or the hardships you've endured. It happened a long time ago, somewhere near the beginning, and the path of your existence has been mapped by it. You are such an asshole, that I'm a bigger asshole than I was before I read the shit you've posted here. I am a humongous asshole now, and while that's my fault, its in large part a response to your meteoric, planetary scale of assholishness.

I hope you can be less of an asshole in the future. I hope I can be less of an asshole in the future. I don't hold out much hope for either of these eventualities though.

Sorry for being an asshole by the way, I mean I could just erase all this shit and not say anything, that would be the decent thing to do. But honestly this shit has been kicking around my skull since like the first time I vaguely interacted with you. And nearly a decade down the road, if some shit is still there its probably real. So there you go.

I've talked a fair amount of shit about you to my wife, who I think considers you an online friend at least. That's shitty of me and I don't like being passive aggressive like that. I feel like I almost owe it to you to tell you what I think about you.

No fucking idea why I'm even reading this fucking thread any fucking ways. Fuck. You have an amazing gift for making people mad at you, if anything.

Solid Snake

06-23-2015, 12:43 AM

Kim, I don't really know you despite orbiting the same digital space for, what, I don't know, almost a decade now? More? But shit, you're an asshole.

If there's one thing the Internet has taught me over this past decade, it's that the lack of interpersonal, face-to-face communication makes all of us dicks.

I mean, we just met recently, right? Wasn't I at least like a decent-if-somewhat mediocre person in person? I certainly remember enjoying your company and thinking you were a stand-up guy.

Now go back and read some of my awful rants on NPF. Hell, even earlier in this very thread, I somehow managed to antagonize everyone angry with Kim and Kim herself at the same time with the same messages! I became so livid over what I perceived to be clear injustices that I felt completely in the right while screaming and shouting like a petulant child.

That's just what the Internet does. We're all faceless abstractions here without any identity. Subsequently, we all judge and are judged solely by the presumed merits of things we type here that we'd never actually say in real life and that don't even really reflect how we perceive the world around us. Often this actually has a positive effect in the aggregate by giving us opportunity to confront the inner demons and erroneous, subconscious assumptions that plague us in real life. But, more often than not, it just enables us all to be real jerks.

I almost wish there was a way we could hook up Skype so, as we posted on NPF, we had to constantly see the faces and expressions of the individuals we were insulting. I think if Synk had to look Kim in the eyes before typing 'tumblr.txt', no matter whether he knew the context or just was being flippant as was claimed, one glance at Kim and he'd stay quiet. But that's not just true of Synk or you or I or Kim, it's basic human nature. Expose yourself to the reality of the hurt you're causing and have the opportunity to react in the moment and you'll quickly become a true diplomat, even when criticizing another's behavior.

I dunno, I'm just ranting because I like you and I like Kim and I like Synk and I like Shiney and I like Terex and POS and Poch and I like all y'all's but more than anything I'm sick and tired of feeling sick and tired whenever I visit NPF over years and years because every fuckin' time we find new ways to destroy our community by diggin' at each other's throats with insensitive insults. I'm as guilty as anyone else, but it's just toxic.

Overcast

06-23-2015, 01:04 AM

I felt pretty calm this whole time. There were one or two things I felt worth defending, but I walked into this knowing what I wanted to say and what I hoped to hear. I got about all of it, the big fat key was just trying to say it without adding unnecessary details. Blunt straightforward, bone dry and simple.

I think I outgrew being a dick on the internet years ago, like 05 when Meister gave me my first and only negative rep on this forum. When I realized I have no reason at all to make anyone feel like that. So now I try to be as unifying as possible. At the end of the day we will never end up growing out of this by calling each other assholes.

We do it by being more than that, and letting others vibe off it.

MSperoni

06-23-2015, 01:31 AM

I'm trying hard not to be an asshole online.

The internet has a way of turning people into smug, self-righteous turds though. Not sure why that is.

Like shit, we can't even talk about a VIDEO GAME we like in chat without someone having to needle on it. Tell us why we're wrong for liking it, etc (I do that shit too and I'm going to stop).

Yeah, that's not a major thing and half the time I think we're joking, but good lord above, can't people just...allow people to LIKE stuff?

*shrugs* Maybe we all just come to NPF to blow off steam. Like a bar full of bitter old drunks.

(Sorry for the off topic rant)

Anyway, a mod can close this thread, y'all can piss and moan and outrage aimlessly at each other, ban everyone, grow up, stay the same. Whatevz.

I have waaaaay too much to do to play referee right now, give me at least till Saturday :P

(I still stand behind everything I said in my previous post though, fwiw)

( really though...uhhh... don't ban everyone. That was a joke. )

pochercoaster

06-23-2015, 02:18 AM

I'm exhausted as I just got off work and I have to get up in 6 hours to work again, so this is going to be brief, but although it's obvious I just want to state that my husband's opinions do not reflect my own. I think Kim had a right to be upset. We've (Kim amd I) disagreed about things but we do it without calling each other names or deliberately hurting each other's feelings. Neither me or my husband have met Kim IRL and it seems senseless to me to call her an asshole. Did she cut us off in traffic today? No? Well then what the hell?

BLAH.

MasterOfMagic

06-23-2015, 09:04 AM

That's pretty apt, actually. Internet fights seem to be on the same basic level as traffic disputes.

A big bag filled with misunderstandings, obliviousness, embarrassment, and genuine assholes. Generally it's hard to tell the difference, and it makes everyone angry regardless.

Kim

06-23-2015, 11:10 AM