The Very Big Final Fantasy XIII Thread
 

As predicted, as soon as FF13 came out, Youtube got filled with "Let's play" videos and similar stuff.

Sure the game is in Japanese and only a very few handfull of people translate stuff while they play, but the videos are out there.

Anybody happened to catch up with those? What are your impressions of the game in motion?

Wow, really? I guess it is officially the future now.

I need some cheese for my whine. So far it's everything I thought it was going to be.

EDIT: I especially hate battle transitions. It seems like such a step backwards from FFXII in how you have to go to a different screen despite having every enemy visible on the world map. They break the flow of the game, look corny, and there's absolutely no reason they couldn't have been done Chrono Trigger style.

well, the transition they tried to explain, if i'm not mistaken it was because of memory issues or something on that area... i do recall hearing a technical explanation for that.

I felt everything i saw so far, to be a tad Linear. Like FFX, i remember some criticism for that.

But the animations... i dunno, not a big gripe about it.

The characters on the other hand, they are your typical Stereotype. But i wouldn't judge them yet. It's hard to call Vanille "Yuffie 2.0" right now.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaPwE3CNla0

Odin Fight, no Spoilers. I dunno, felt a lot like "Classic" FF Battle system, but with just one character and Dynamic "Job change". 3 minutes isn't much of a drag for a Boss fight...

It's a fucking PS3; there should be no memory issues.Also, FFXII did it before.

I think you've nailed my complaints. It's like FFX-3. I hated FFX.

I do have to say I like the fast pace of the battles and how there's shit going on everywhere. If only the camera weren't so fucking spastic...

Also, just to notice, there is a British dude doing a Full walktrough with comments on Youtube uploading it as he goes, right now.

Things to notice

1- He speaks some japanese, so he translates a ton of stuff
2- He seems to not know a lot about FF13, he didn't know who Vanille and Hope were. Also... found FF6 to be Boring and FF9 to be crap.... so be aware.

Here it goes. Part 1, there are 19 out now (so, about 2 hours of Gameplay)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STwQ7...eature=channel

The PS3 is still a piece of hardware, you know. Everything has limits. Everything it does takes memory. The thing only has half a Gig of RAM, and half of that is devoted exclusively to graphics. That's like Win98 with a Fatal1ty video card.

Also, 12 didn't have such large environments with so much going on in them, from what I've seen to compare. True, the playable area might be roughly the same, but 12 didn't render out as far outside of it. From a programmer's standpoint, the thing is more like Oblivion than FF12 in terms of resources and how they're being used, and have you ever TRIED the CM Partners mods? Your computer, unless you have some sort of alien technology, is guaranteed to become unstable at any more than 2-3 NPC partners, and will invariably crash at 7. And that's working with at least 8 times the PS3's main memory. Also, you have to consider that Oblivion really has very little going on in the background, so factor in a bunch of mods like Alive Waters, only also for a bunch of stuff on land. These additions alone will make even top-of-the-line computers scream. Now combine both of them and you'll find yourself with a burning box.

Please, RT. I know you feel like this is a step backwards. I wish the transitions were a bit more seamless, myself. But there are reasons for why it is the way it is, and why they had to scale it back that way.

Uh this is not true. This is not true at all.

I mean I don't know shit about gaming programming or whatever but my complaints stem from the fact that despite being in more powerful hardware FFXIII is cutting back on stuff that should have become standard with the last iteration. And even if there's a reason for the lack of seamless battles, in my opinion they should have cut out on the superfluous stuff that doesn't allow for seamless battles.

I can survive with the transition, even if it was just an Esthetic choice. But the first part of the game seems littered with Linear maps and dungeons and that's what bugs me.

Ok, to be honest, i can't recall any Final Fantasy that gave you a ton of freedom before the 5~10 hours mark. Usually you're trapped in a city or navigating from one room to the next room... and sure, some FF's would give you a limited world map early on and this one doesn't seem to do that...

I just hope that after the training wheels come off, the game opens up more than this.

You know, RT, the argument could be made that they cut seamless battle transitions as a superfluous feature to make way for other things. Because it's pretty apparent they did, what with the early stuff showing near-seamless transitions with the final product not having them. That means they put in work to take them OUT, when they would have been easier to leave in if there had been room for them.

You really have to take a step back and look at mechanics. They wanted a fast-paced battle system. They actually increased the speed of battle over development by frankly quite a lot. In FF12, you had a pretty slow battle system. Things took time to execute, you had to wait for your turn to come up, and rounds were generally pretty darn long. They didn't want that for this. From what I'm seeing, you're basically racing to input commands and there's next to no cooldown in comparison. As soon as you act, your turn is up again.

That kind of speed applied to an MMO-like system COULD work, but it could quickly turn unforgiving depending on how much is on the field. An MMO-style system works best when numbers are roughly even in battles, or at least if the levels add up to about the same. Granted, from what we've seen, in certain areas, it might have been possible.

But then you have range to consider, too. For normal summoning, an MMO-style system could work, because, as you'll likely point out, it did in FF12. On the other hand, FF13 has Driving/Gestalt Mode, which makes battles much more action-oriented and not only removes the rest of the party from play, but also takes up the player character's full attention. Many of the Gestalt Mode abilities have a limited range best served by an enclosed area, because they're physical attacks. Wide, sweeping physical attacks, but they still require physical contact, which the enclosed area helps ensure. Without it, one could easily be "in battle" with several enemies, yet not be close enough to hit them. Given that Gestalt Mode essentially puts the summon's HP as its time, and the attacks also pull from that time, it makes sense to make sure none of the effort is wasted, because you have to win that time from battles and you can't cancel in the middle of it.

You also have to consider buyer feedback. I don't have numbers on this one, but I personally DISLIKED the MMO setup in 12, and I know others who did, too. It felt, at the time, like they were trying to cheaply capitalize on the popularity of MMOs. Maybe they were. I'm not going to argue this one, because, as I said, I don't have numbers on it, but I will point out that FF had ten titles out that used a battle screen, and all but three of those were on hardware known to be capable of putting battles right where you stood. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a battle screen, and just because one game didn't do it that way does not make the practice obsolete.




Frankly, as a programmer with vague hopes of doing games as a living and concrete hopes of doing games as a hobby, with several projects in various stages of planning and completion, I know what has to be considered, because I have to consider it. I'm not saying any of this stuff to be rotten, RT. I'm trying to explain it to you, so you can have a better idea of what goes into this stuff. Programming isn't at all black and white. There are many ways of doing things and you often have to consider what's best for an individual situation. When dealing with content, you have to weigh everything against everything else and make tough decisions on what to include, what to cut, and what to scale up or scale back so everything fits into your resources.

One last thing, remember that this is coming to the 360, too, which has its own specs and quirks. Maybe the PS3 COULD handle an MMO battle system like 12's but maybe the 360 couldn't. I know jack about the 360's specs and capabilities, but you have to consider that it's going to be the same game for both systems. Very few games currently do different versions between the two, with the only one I can think of being NIER. When coding for multiple configurations, you have to cater to the greatest common factor in every aspect, which means the lowest factor in each area on each system hampers the final product.




Edit: Wasn't going to do this originally, but I think people deserve a TL;DR for this. So I'll do bullet points:

• An enclosed battle area can help with resources including disk space, RAM usage, and CPU load.
• Mechanics must be considered. An enclosed area benefits wide-angle physical attacks as in Gestalt Mode.
• Just because open-style battle was done once does not make it the standard; it makes it the exception that may become a new standard if it continues.
• The PS3 is not the only system this is being made for, and thus it must cater to the greatest common factor in every area, in which the lowest capability in every area drags down the ultimate quality.

What's the goddamn glitter tag?
 

Just outta curiousity--I'm not reading most of this thread 'cause of the spoilers buuuut--if you're this interested in the game, do you guys plan to get it?

If so, what's the point when you're already going to know every single thing that is going to happen by the time it makes it state/whateversideyouareon side?

I mocked RT for this yesterday.
 

I'm interested solely for the gameplay, but this is largely why I am avoiding these videos. Even if I don't like the story, I don't want to spoil it for myself. That'd make playing through it even more unbearable, once again, under the assumption I don't like it.

Yeah, I'm going to come out and call that a fake, there, for some pretty obvious and not-so-obvious reasons. :sweatdrop

On the linearity, eh I used to hate FFX for that but on later replays it was less of a problem, it just stopped bothering me, so hopefully it won't bother me in this.

So anyway, apparently this game has a bestiary. Which is awesome and has boosted it to buy at release for me. I mean it probably won't top FFXII's masterpiece of one, but still, they're my favourite thing to put in a RPG.

Also I've got two questions that I'm curious about but don't want the answer too spoilery.

1. Is Jihl the main villain?

2. If not does the main villain come out of freaking nowhere Necron style?

I can actually field this. No, Jihl is not the main villain, despite being quite the bitch. The main villain is currently somewhat ambiguous, as there are a couple candidates, but no solid word on who's ultimately the biggest problem for the party. We CAN assume, however, that we'll meet whoever it is along the way, given what has been revealed, or that they at least aren't going to come out of nowhere.

Unconfirmed spoilers:

She seems to die halfway through the game.

No idea.

What the fuck?! No, this must be fake... the shadow doesn't cover the characters below... but it's a great fake.

Also, after seeing some footage of a Asian Let's play, the game does seem to open up nicely and scale up too, so i guess it's a slow start, but not as bad as i thought it could be.

Maybe there's more to playing a game than finding out what's going to happen.

But, maybe not.

No.

Final Fantasy has come to the point where I can enjoy most of what it can offer from watching playthroughs on Youtube. Same issue with the Metal Gear series.

EDIT: I might rent it if just for the battle system. I can foresee some cool battles deriving from it.

I plan to get the game because the Paradigm Shift system looks interesting and is a new concept in FF games. As with the Eidolon/Gestalt Mode bit.

I did watch a bit of the live playthroughs, but I don't think I spoiled anything other than the same vague "At one point they go to an ice level" type stuff you see in trailers anyway. Hell, the English trailers probably spoiled more for me just because I could understand them.

I do plan on getting the game, because FF is good about always bringing something new and interesting to the table, and the only one that I've ever popped into a system and haven't liked was 12 for, well, basically everything, actually. As 13 looks like it's not going to be 12 all over again, I believe I'll like it like I liked everything that wasn't 12.

I want to care about this game, but it's hard to.
 

Uh, Nonsie? :sweatdrop

I don't know where you're getting your info, but it's at least not what I heard. Maybe the wiki needs to be updated, but then could you give me your source so I can do it? I'd like to help keep things accurate, you know? ;)

I care even less now!
 

FINE. If the main character dies, the battle ends in defeat. You pretty much confirmed my worries about it being too easy, though. Thanks.

Well, then you should love it, since you loathe perfection. :p


Still waiting to hear where you picked up the main character bit.

I love perfection. Just read my Nocturne review.
 

This sentence contained nothing humorous, and the addition of the tongue smiley does not change that fact. If you're going to insult me, at least make it funny. It can't really be in good fun if it isn't fun.

Well, among other places, RT has been watching the game being played and said as much.

So I just watched the ending.

The final boss design is ugly. Also, it is Cocoon itself. Totally serious.
The ending is girly. Really, really girly. As in, yuri undertones and all. Vanille X Fang is my OTP.

Look at your signature lately? I was teasing. ;)

Well, I guess that means I'm going to have to ask him for some links. 'Cause hell if I'm going to go scouring YouTube for something that may or may not exist.

Either that, or I'll have to put out a general call for a search in the talk page.

I can only aspire to Kurotsuchi levels of douchiness.
 

Complaint retracted, though you really shouldn't hold me to Kurotsuchi quotes.

Can we agree that the summons turned out more Awesome than expected?

For example... i present Gundam Alexander

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmsXCdzM7vU

Summon sequence was boring.
 

He's far too small and that summon sequence better be skippable.

Attack animations for summons are too long in Gestalt Mode.

Oh c'mon now. As far as i can recall that's one of the fastest Summon transition in all FF and the Gestalt attacks aren't slower than common magic except for the Finisher.

I didn't notice it as much in FFXII cuz I almost never used summons.
 

Let me tell you something Bells. I was playing Persona PSP, a port of the first Persona game from the PSX. I love the Persona games, and I really enjoyed this one, but that doesn't change the fact that half the time I was going "Holeeee shiiiiit I am glad they don't pull this bullshit anymore." Just because the summons sequences are longer in old games, does not change the fact that doing something like that, especially if we do it on a regular basis, is going to be a pain in the bitch to sit through, and is something that should be fazed out as the franchise progresses.

Honestly, I'm just glad they kept everything to shorter than in was in FF12. I mean, granted, it lacks the ZOMG WORLD BUSTING appearance of 12's sequences, but that was a bit over the top in the first place. These (the same user has videos for Odin, Shiva, and Byrnhildr) seem to be much more local, which makes sense in the context of the game. Although they lack variation. All of them minus Alexander end up with a spinning attack, which isn't quite as bad with Odin, since it's Lightning doing the spinning, and in the air, but Shiva and Byrnhildr are basically the same, replace one element with another. That's mildly disappointing.

Well, there is only so much you can do with a Motorcycle and a Car, so i guess they drove themselves to a designer corner with that one...

I also got the feeling that they pushed this to a more streamlined concept by actually "removing" summons. Because they don't play out as summons anymore. They are just Limit breakers. Each character has only one and it's always the same...

And checking out the Damage output those things give it also feels like Summons are ment to be Life savers instead of a common attack like they have been on previous FF's after a certain point. You can't just summon it like a ordinary attack any time you want.

Sure, it does drag on some old concepts, but FF13 is actually trying to take these concepts and give it a freash spin... if it works or not it's another story.

Oh, no, you're totally right. On pretty much all counts. I was just kind of excited at first when Byrnhildr accelerated because I thought it was going to be an Ifrit-style charge/flash heat attack, and needless to say I was disappointed when she started spinning. Also that Sazh got ejected during it, taking away pretty much every possibility of him being a serious character. That alone is disappointing, because his individual position is quite serious, what with the quest for his son, and he's shown a good amount of wisdom, too.

But yeah, the big guys are on record saying that they didn't include Limit Breaks because of the Eidolons. Those were some damn big numbers popping up, and the way you have to earn summoning points from winning battles cements it pretty strongly as a last resort.




Edit: Oh, hey, the user just added Bahumut. No spinning! XD

I kid, but Mega Flare is kinda special in its own way. Usually, it's a beam or giant blast. This one is a megaton bomb that just so happens to be the size of a softball.

The damage-to-impressiveness ratio of these attacks is a bit off-kilter, methinks, but I'll wait for the game to really judge. XD

Fuuuck I want this game really bad. I don't think I've been excited for an FF game ever. Only a few months to go at least. Of course I won't be avoiding spoilers in the meantime because I am the sort that gives no shit about spoilers.

There are a few videos on Youtube explaining the battle system. It's actually deeper in strategy than i would've thought at first

My heart explodes with joy!
 

So here's the sales data for December 21-27, which I think is like the second week of FFXIII's release.

The first number appears to be sales for that week, and how the ranking is organized. The second seems to be total sales since release.

It's funny to me.

Basically it's selling worse than the PS2 FFs.

Not that surprising, but still.

Is it me or is the FFXIII theme song the most inappropriate theme song ever?
 

Case in point.


I mean, I'm not a fan of the Japanese selection, but...They should have got Lady Gaga instead.

Threads merged, yo.

I'm sure there are at least two other active FFXIII threads floating around but let's call this one The One for now.

Square knows why Western Reviewers hate FF13
 

Source:
Apparently, they havent learned that giving some freedom is necessary(where I hear FF13 doesn't even open up till Chapter 11, quite a ways in, In fact, I hear you can't even back track). I thought they had learned that the standard jRPG formula was getting stale when they did FF12, but apparently change and originality is bad.

Heck, the team doesnt get why Mass Effect is so popular.
Source(@14:35)

Anywho, there have been very few nonhandheld jRPGs I have loved recently(guess the last one was Lost Odyssey, but that was mainly due to the localization of it with Michael McGaharn's performance...man I am glad they gave him that much freedom to make Jansen into a real character). Perhaps, the linear story is getting stale, and a more freeform(not sandbox) method of story telling needs to be visited. Our consoles are no longer limited so extreme linearity isn't forced on us by technical hurdles. Maybe Square will sit down and play ME/2 and learn a thing or two:)

Final Fantasy XI.

Why do Square figureheads say stupid shit? I've always suspected they thought it, but only recently have they been saying it out on the public.

Yeah, those guys really need to play KOTOR. Or Mass Effect. Seriously, how is there a linear relationship between epicness of story and linearity of gameplay? Sure, it's easier to tell a compelling story if you know exactly where the player's going next, but it's still possible.

They need to play their own fucking games before start playing somebody else's games.

Then again, this is Motomu Toriyama. Not even he would be able to stand the shit he creates.

X2, Revenant Wings, and the Ff7 cocktease tech demo, I presume?

Reviewers are looking at Final Fantasy as a wRPG.

Final Fantasy.

The franchise that started jRPGs.

...Christ Toriyama. Clutch at less straws, why don't you.

Threads merged. Again.

Sounds like FFX, to be honest. Not entirely because you could backtrack in FFX but then again it was a bit of a pain to actually do it so to me it sounds close enough, at least.

I don't quite buy into this notion that linear games are per se worse than nonlinear ones. If a game is good and the story and gameplay hold my attention I don't particularly care if I can make a side trip to Bel'gov'ia' Desert to collect 700 cactus flowers for the shopkeeper anytime I want. Slagging a game that's designed to be linear for that very fact seems a bit like slagging Mega Man 9 for outdated graphics. (I'm aware Final Fantasy may be the wrong series for which to cite story quality as an element.)

... I did curse FFX many times for how much of a pain backtracking was though but then again the only reason I ever wanted to backtrack was to get video spheres or whatever before Dark Aeons showed up, so basically just video game collectable OCD.

Please also note that I haven't actually read very many FFXIII reviews or this thread so if at any point in my post you catch yourself thinking "but that's not what this is about at all" that's likely the reason.

From what I've heard, 13 might just drag me back in.
I very much disliked 12, so perhaps the change of plans'll be what I need.

I kinda want to get it for the 360, just to see if it red rings my console or something.

But from the eye-bleeding commentary leading up to the 3rd page before I gave up, I might like this. I liked FFX, and FFXII didn't really grab me (though I didn't give it a fair shot, which is why I didn't trade it in and will one day play it!)

Also, linearity? Fuck, every FF in my memory is linear. The games only open up a bit at 50-80% completion, and before then, FFs give you approximately two options:
1) Go to destination game wants you to go to.
2) Grind in forest outside destination game wants you to go to.

I didn't mind it that much in X but XII's open world was far superior.
 

I think it was dropping world maps that really opened everyone's eyes for this.

Man I miss world maps.

Butterfly in the sky! I can fly twice as high! (Cuz I have an airship!)
 

I hear FF Versus XIII is going to have world maps, or so I hear.

I also miss flying my airship myself. That was bomb. Why the fuck'd they cut that out?

Not enough menus to satisfy the target demographic otherwise.

I love flying the airships. It was so much fun. Damnit now you made me depressed about lack of airship flying again :( Giving us a airship isn't enough, they should let us fly it!

My guess on world maps is that they want to make the world seem larger then what they give you. Like what they did with FF XII. But it's still sad that they've removed them.

Dragon Quest is now Final Fantasy?

Same company nowadays, don't mind the details or plotholes xP

Fair enough, but it's not exactly in question that Final Fantasy is absurdly popular and everyone knows exactly what it is. Blaming wRPGs for the disappointing reviews of Final Fantasy is like saying Halo 3: ODST is underperforming because of Saint's Row 2.

In the US, Final Fantasy started the jRPG. Dragon Quest has always played such a sad and lonely second fiddle.

FFX-2: Crap
Revenant Wings: Crapper.
Blood of Bahamut: Hasn't come out here but from what I've heard ended up being shit!

And from what I've heard he was responsible for the laughing scene in FFX.

Ultima created JRPGs.

Accusing Final Fantasy of being linear is like accusing the sky of being blue.

I think there might have been a few conflicts of priority given towns and stuff, but then I also think they might be being a bit too anal about the detail they want to put in the buildings, just looking in from the outside. On the other hand, I'd rather sacrifice towns than a decent plot.

Man, this is the "FFVII remake can't be done because it'd be too much for HD graphics ohshitdon'tlookatFFXIV" bullshit all over again.

I mean, yeah, Square, but it'd be nice if they didn't do this in every other interview.

It's less "Why is this linear" for me and more "Why the hell are they saying this isn't doable when they have evidence saying otherwise?"

It's the Kitase/Toriyama/Wada trio of idiocy.

Nomura is alright, to be honest. He can still fuck things up sometimes but at least he knows when to shut up.

So you want them to open up several areas (Bioware says 4) after the intro, require you to complete the Main Missions there, after which the endgame is (usually immediately) opened?

I don't know, I like the gradual "unlocking" of the world, which at some point rewards you with an airship type transport method (teleports at major save points work well too).

I can understand doing it for story, but we are all forgetting one major part of RPGs and that is Role Playing. Extreme linearity turns it into basically a visual novel(not that visual novels aren't good, I love Fate/Stay Night).

While yes, you can still play a role in an extremely linear game, you won't be that immersed, since it will be extremely obvious you have no choice in how the character is played. Sure, every FF has been this way, but they have masked it by giving you a modicum of choices. Most FFs dont fully open up till you get the airship, but until then they either give you a world map to explore(albeit limited), towns to explore, or heck the ability to backtrack a bit. Add in sidequests and you are good.

Linearity is for action games and books, RPGs need a bit more open endedness or you wont really feel like you have any control over the role. Im not asking for a sandbox, just a bit more than follow the path.

edit:
Not exactly, but bringing you to a fork in the story where you can go three places of the same importance and cant continue the story until you have done so wouldnt be too bad. ME2 is a different type of story telling, as it's more about the trip building your team than the actual mission.

FFX-2 had excellent gameplay. Get over it.

Also, I think people miss the whole point of the laughing scene, which is highlighting they're in a shit world and need to put on a happy face, so they're forcing it as badly as possible until they actually have to laugh at themselves, and even then, everyone thinks they've lost their marbles. It's a well-executed scene.

Well, they never said it was impossible, just prohibitive to their standards.

FFX-2's rest of the package soured me on the one good thing it had.

No. No it is not. I even like the game and no it's pretty poorly executed. If I had to blame one thing it'd be that the voice acting is so universally piss poor that the whole "WE ARE FAKE LAUGHING OH GOD I WANT TO CUT MYSELF" is nigh indecipherable from "OH GOD THE ACTING IN THIS GAME IS AWFUL"

No, I was referring to the fact that SE keeps tripping over themselves in interviews.

An open world with a storyline has been proven to be possible in some of SE's games: FFXI, FFXII to a lesser extent, and they're doing it again with FFXIV, and every FF that had an overworld map you walk on.

I wasn't critiquing their games, just their Foot-In-Mouth-Syndrome.

Okay I gotta say, despite my earlier comments, no world map or airships does pretty much blow. What else did they remove, chocobos?

I have to agree with NonCon on that one. For some reason that scene really bugged me and he's right. The voice acting at that part was one of the main reason.

I enjoyed X and even X-2 at times, but I always hated the voice acting in it and that scene reminded me of how bad it could be.

So did Bayonetta.

You can't compare a gameplay focused game(bayonetta is hurt by its story some, but it doesn't destroy it as action games are more about gameplay) to a story based one(bad story kills rpgs...)

If you're playing a mission-based game for a good story, you're doing it wrong. The fact that X-2's was anywhere near only sub-par is a bonus.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been better, but look at the competition at the time.

On that note, I'm just going to have to cite irreconcilable differences of opinion on the games in question. I generally tend to be more forgiving if a game is lacking in any one area than most. Like, shit, I'm the guy who actually likes Evil Zone because of its simplified control system and The Legend of Dragoon for incorporating rhythm elements into battle.

Call me an optimist, I guess. :J

Im not saying I didnt enjoy X-2, cuz I totally did.

Just saying, I disliked the overarching story elements so much that I skipped cutscenes my first run through... which is blasphemous for any RPG.

Not trying to hijack the thread but Bayonetta's story and cutscenes physically hurt me. I seriously left liking it less, gameplay aside, just from the story.

'Cept for Cereza. She was okay.

I'd just like to say I have no problem with a linear game. FF6 WoR was pretty nonlinear and it doesn't add anything that I've noticed. The problem is that replacing actual travel around the game world with a list of locations remove the sense of physical integrity of that world. It's not conductive to immersion.

Also damnit, now I'm going to have to get a PS3.