Your take on Ultimate Fighting
 

So, i stand here and i'm watching as UFC 110 is being announced on TV, and they are showing all these fighters and this dramatic editing and all these clips and interviews and Training Montages....

...I know it's a "Sport"... but i don't see it as a sport you know?

Even Boxing (which i'm not really a fan of) has a silver lining. A Control, a "Sportsmanship" aura to it... and even though it's just two guys beating each other, there is still the sense that the goal is to simply outmatch the performance of your opponent.

Ultimate Fighting... just... doesn't give me that Feeling. It's people beating the crap out of each other for no god damn reason. The goal is not to outmatch our out-skill or out-perform your foe, it's to pummel each other until someone crosses the line where it would be too inhuman to beat him any further.

And yeah yeah i know all about the "Oh, but their training is insane!" well... as far as i care, training doesn't make the sport. In any sport there will always be that one guy that pushes the limit to be the best, it's only natural for the others to follow suit if they want to stay competitive. Just look at Tiger Wood's training for an example... beyond anything i would ever imagine.

I also know all too well about how this sport just feeds our basic instincts as humans and men... i just think we don't need to indulge in any sports that require one human being to make another one bleed on purpose as a means to a goal. It's just unnecessary, actually, irrelevant.

Hell, even the ancient Roman Gladiators had a better aura than this... there was an actual goal to win, purpose. And going for the "straw" argument here... it was "the" thing to do. Nowadays? We have options, we don't have to be bored, we can be entertained anywhere at any time... we don't really need to put 2 over-trained muscle men to Beat each other for a cheap rush... yet, we do.

This is just a condensed brainstormed rant to see where the subject goes...

My boss likes UFC. Since this is gonna be a slow weekend, I'll ask his opinion on your post, assuming I remember because, you know, it's 2 in the morning on General and I'm not allowed to say that I'm drunk.

Edit: Yep, printed out and everything. You will get your opinions, dear sir.

gross misconception of MMA.

MMA is just as much a sport As boxing or kickboxing. If you ever see an MMA fight, realy sit down and watch it, It's almost 80% Two Guys Humping Each Other, and by that I mean ground submission fighting, they try to slide into and out of various dominant holds and control their situation. Pshh, most MMA fighters are not as much real fighters as they are sport fighters. No headbutting(my favorite) soft point striking, small joint manipulation, ground strikes, hair bulling scratching,biting, using the walls as braces, or anything else that would happen in a real fight.

MMA(Ultimate Fighting) is nothing but Kickboxing+(real)wrestling with all the pitfalls and benefits.

I'm not a big fan of UFC or boxing (excepting Rocky and/or Antonio Inoki beating up Ali). I have a hard time seeing how boxing is any more or less of a sport though.

I guess a lot of people like the UFC thing better because it seems closer to real fighting, which it is in terms of how applicable the styles being used could potentially be outside the ring/octagon/hypercube/whatever, but it's still got enough rules and structure to it that the whole thing is pretty firmly a simulation. Which is fine - nothing wrong with that, and I'm sure the fighters would kick plenty of ass in a random streetfight too. It's just kind of caught in a weird place, because it wants to be gritty and real, but it still has to have all that structure to be a sport, so whenever I see it, it feels kind of awkward to me.

Rickson by armbar
 

It might not appear so obvious, but what you see in MMA requires a high definition of skill and training.

Especially within the grappling. In fact the grappling I would say is the most technical aspect, although it might not appear like they're doing much than "Wailing on the opponents head" they are both constantly thinking about mount positioning, reverses, shrimping, counters, potential locks or chokes, potential counters to counters etc. Funnily enough many people find this part the most boring part of it, which I understand because it's something I think you can only really appreciate once you try it yourself and see how hard it is.

Boxing is whole big on the smack talking thing too, unless you are defying Sportsmanship as something different.

I would disagree with this and say Boxing is a worst perpetrator than MMA when it comes to pummelling; in MMA the referee will stop the match once it becomes too dangerous for either participant, and this tends happens pretty quickly. Compare this to Boxing, which can require going much longer periods of times getting repeatedly hit in the head.

Not only have you got the grappling as mentioned above, you're got to mix in clinch work and striking ranges. Fighters tend to favour one over the other, and have a game plan.

It's actually evolved quite a bit, if anyone remembers the earlier ones where a 180lb Gracies came in and tied people in knots (This was before weight divisions) it showed the world that if you wanted to be successful in the ring a good ground game is needed. What we've got today are strikers who learn how to grapple so they can defend against it. Also there are now more rules which you can see here.

Mm, what about sports that don't necessarily require to destroy your opponent but in some way encourage or is part of the game? Australian Football, Judo, Union, Ice Hockey, American Football are all games with set rules with a goal of scoring more points, however they all carry a risk of injury.

I'm not saying that as a counter point, but just curious to your opinions on those sports.

MMA might appear to be just people "pummelling each other" but I would disagree with this. If you can you should take some classes and see for yourself how technical it really is.

Personal opinion: I enjoy combat sports mostly because of the technical prowess more so than the actual damage to another human being.

Edit: You should just go over to a site like Bullshido.net instead and read some of the articles they've got.

Edit Edit: We could debate what definition of a sport really is, whether it's defeating the opposition or a scoring system. If it carries a degree of violence make it any less of a sport?

Depends. MMA is a pretty broad category, and it does include some stuff that's closer to bloodsport. In fact, I'm given to understand that UFC was originally almost entirely sans rules until it got popular.

You're thinking of Vale Tudo.

Quick look at wiki says no. Vale Tudo was one of the inspirations for UFC, but original UFC was still pretty much what I said.

In any case, either one serves my point just as well, so it doesn't really matter.

Pretty sure the generally accepted usual outcome for a losing gladiator for quite a while was death, though.

In a weird synchronicity, I just happened to read Sinfest strip #380
 

I want to know what they're going to call the next step in fighting. Super-ultra-awesome fighting?

Also a historical note, courtesy of mister Stephen Fry: Before the invention of boxing gloves, serious injury and death was almost unheard of. Nowadays we get boxing spokesmen who say things like "There have been injuries and deaths in boxing, but none of them serious."

Because they have been hit in the head a lot, you see.

I've started digging MMA after quite a bit of time hating it, mostly for the guys who surround it.
"HURR HURR, mY MMA is Better than your krotty hur hur hur"

It's one thing to discuss the flaws and benefits of various martial arts styles, I do this all the time to grow as a person and martial artist. It's another thing to be an ass about your SPORT and claim superiority in REAL COMBAT because of it.

MY capoeira beats your MMAbecause the minute you lock me down, I'll headbutt( Sooo many headbutts in Capoeira) or bite you until you let go. and my FIRST thing is to strike you in the nuts. NO question.
Your MMA Beats my capoeira becaue your grappling is better.

You're not the best fighter in the world because you train in a gym and not a dojo or somesuch.

They say the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...
 

The reason is mostly because gloves allow you to hit quite hard with minimal damage to your fists. Hitting someone full power in the face with a closed fist is a good way to get broken wrists, fingers and cut up knuckles.

Take away the gloves you're not going to be hitting someone as hard to protect yourself, or it will have more emphasis on body shots.

Two men trying to see which one can hurt the other's eyes with their chin while they hug on the floor is just comedy.

Manly comedy!

Not saying this is at all what happens in any professional combat sport but some of the best times I've had in 9 years of Karate involved trying very hard to beat the crap out of a friend while they reciprocated. Then at the end we'd pat each other on the back shake hands and compliment each other on the injuries we inflicted. I'm not a particularly violent person but it really is a pretty awesome feeling even when you lose. My style actually does a basically no rules, except for the obvious, type of sparring wearing Kendo gear and that's like 10 times more awesome than sparring. I guess I'm trying to say is that fighting for fun in a situation where no one is actively attempting serious injury can look brutal and totally crappy while being great fun for the people doing it. Even when they are getting their heads kicked in.

I will say one thing though I look back know on my black belt test and realize it was pretty damn great despite being so tired and sore I couldn't walk the day after and I just sort of collapsed after I got home from it. Somehow it managed to be even better then sparring in that kendo gear which kinda makes me want to go through it again as soon as possible and on the other hand it was so rough I don't know if I do. The moral of the story is that there is something to gain from even seemingly brutal experiences if the intent and focus isn't the brutality. Although I may have a sadomasochistic streak cause hitting things and being hit is just fun. I don't know its 4am and I think I'm rambling. Its a hard thing to explain if you haven't experienced it.

Or it might just be that it's legitimately extremely boring to watch to dudes rolling around on the floor. Well, or sexy, if you're into that kind of thing.

I mean, I know how to play chess. I know that chess players are constantly thinking about where each piece is, about established plays, and are always thinking of counters, and potential counters to counters, etc.

However, watching some people play chess is still boring as fuck.

Watching some people punching each other in the face, however, is not.

Rocky> Never Back Down.
The Karate Kid> Never Back Down
Getting shot in the face> Never Back Down

Well, to be fair when i think "Boxing Vs UFC" the first thing that comes to mind is "I can SEE boxing as a Olympic sport..." i know it's not much, no doubt everything south of The Mike Tyson days isn't really pretty to look at... but at least Boxing is built in the sense that a Match can be purely technical and still works, might not be as visceral as anything the MMA puts out (and i get the "Entertainment value" of spectacle), but a purely technical ultimate fight would be called a "Flop".


I've trained for quite a few years Karate, Judo, Aikido and even a little Kendo... they don't really encourage harming the opponent. Sure, they have chance of Injury, and these ARE martial arts and Self-Defense techniques, so you can inflict some serious pain... but in the execution of the sport in a formalized manner, it's all technical. About reading your opponent and reacting quicker to strike first or counter fast enough.

As for Football and Rugby and the such... again, there is areal danger of people getting hurt, but it's the nature of the Physical game, not a part of the objective. In most of these games (as far as i know, all of them!) you get penalized if you intentionally hurt someone or even if you unintentionally hurt someone sometimes.

"Sport" just on the definition of the word, i would go for Wikipedia: "A sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive, and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play. It is governed by a set of rules or customs. "

Under those guidelines, pretty much anything can be a sport.

Just for fun, to keep with the Wikipedia Bullet points... talking about Sportsmanship

"Sportsmanship expresses an aspiration or ethos that the activity will be enjoyed for its own sake, with proper consideration for fairness, ethics, respect, and a sense of fellowship with one's competitors. Being a "good sport" involves being a "good winner" as well as being a "good loser""


and Violence in Sports
"Contact sports such as American football, ice hockey, rugby football, boxing, mixed martial arts, wrestling, and water polo involve certain levels of physical violence, but include restrictions and penalties for excessive and dangerous use of force. Violence in sports may include threats, or physical harm and may be carried out by athletes, coaches, fans, spectators, or the parents of younger athletes."


Well, yeah... and the Winner would still be a slave, just treated better. I know it's straw argument, but still, there were dudes with swords and spears and doped lions, nobody has anything to lose... and even then it was more about the show than the bloodshed, then again, back then a good fighter was harder to replace.

Headbut followed by Open hand throat punch, followed by pretty much anything! Can't beat that!!

The sad part is that this is one of the reasons for many of the "Female Versions" of these sports.

Oh I understand completely that it's boring for most people to watch, I just wanted to draw attention that it's a bit more complex than two dudes hugging eachother and going Hulk Smash once so often.

Edit:

Ah, I see your point with the entertainment aspect of it. If you wanted something a bit more upbeat you could always tweak the rules to something a bit more viewable or did not encourage deadlocks (As mentioned before, MMA is a broad encompassing term and UFC has never been my favourite rule set).

You have to remember that the Ultimate Figther stuff you see on TV is half about spicing it up for showmanship and attracting people to watch it. There are events and tournaments where there is better lack of ego, bravado and showmanship compared to fights shown on TV which can be pretty much purely technical as you seen in Boxing, Judo, Kickboxing and Muay Thai. If the producers wanted to make the sport appear more of that like boxing they could tweak the rules and change the general atmosphere. They probably decided against this because the realised what they're doing now is getting more attention and money.

Bwhaha, was about to say until I read the rest of the paragraph; things like Judo and Kyokushin are pretty harsh even with the ruleset and scoring system of the sports. See above paragraph about the technical thing.

What I gather from watching Australian Football is"Here's the guy with the ball...but let's cut over to a fistfight breaking out."

You get penalised too in MMA for certain moves that are deemed dangerous to the participants health. I agree though that it is a different objective altogether though.

For the record no matter how much I enjoy watching UFC (which is a so-so amount), I have always enjoyed watching a good Muay Thai, BJJ or Judo match more. I miss K-1 Pride.

Edit edit: For those in North America; is it true that there are guys who are now trying pick up women in clubs and bars by saying "Yeah, I'm an ultimate fighter"? They might as well say "I am a Master of the Universe".

UFC//MMA competition is mostly about strategy, skill and endurance within the same martial art, therefore it's a sport and not a fighting match.
Take the MMA out of UFC and you'll see why real fighting is less about strategy as it is about concentrating on YOU and understanding the simple physics behind your own body, then apply that bluntly to others. You'd see 60 year old zen masters flooring these guys with a tap, sumos just crushing the living hell out of them, monks coming from a childhood of monastic training taught to continually batter and forge themselves into musculoskeletal steel, able to rip the inefficient flesh from these UFC guy's arms with their bare hands.

North America, which is essentially European fighting style has ALWAYS been about the simplicity and ease of the weapon to make it more viable... you give a peasant a pike and suddenly you have a soldier, you give 100 peasants bows and suddenly you have a wall of arrows. Only since guns have we really started to REALLY value soldiers for more than just bags of meat in front of kings.

Well, thanks to Lev I won't feel quite so much like I'm spamming and necroing a thread at the same time. Thanks, Lev.

I really did ask around at work, even though it wasn't nearly as funny an idea when I sobered up. They had nothing interesting to say, just a lot of "I can see where he's coming from, but I don't personally agree." It's like they were trying to avoid flaming and getting me in trouble. Thanks a lot for being boring, people at work.

I was in Tulum from Feb 10 - Feb 22 =P

I like to catch the matches when Im not the one shelling out 45-50 dollars for them

In the beggining I watched mainly to see people beat eachother, but as I started watching more and looking up stuff on technique I tend to appreciate the ground game better. really its interesting to me to see how they do everything. One of my favorite counterpoints for when people say "why watch people play a game" is that The professionals know how to do it better. While I know in a technical sense how to do some of the things I see (mostly goaltending), I see people like Marty brodeur (for the record, I hate this man), Henrik Lundqvist, and Ryan Miller do it better.

You know, you can get a lot of Athleticism and Technique by watching Professional Wrestling. Specially if you have something like the Undertaker on a title match!

*straws fall from the sky* Grasp them!!

You can also get a lot of pointless drama and bullshit by watching Soap Operas.

90's Pro Wrestling? Omg just the interviews with this guy are gold.
http://www.e-filler.ca/images/UltimateWarrior2.jpg


2000's 2010's wrestling... oh man I saw this episode before I saw any contemporary wrestling, very well done.
http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/e...310/W.T.F.html

Interviews has nothing on the comics about himself that he wrote. :3

You can get a lot of athleticism and technique without the pointless drama and bullshit WWE so loves if you watch CHIKARA!

Yah, well you can go to hell, good sir.


As an interesting comparison, I'm going on two years training in Escrima and Krav Maga. One of the first things I was told was, "I'm teaching a combative, not a sport. If you want tournaments and medals, go somewhere else." When I train, I am literally told things like "Aim for the bridge of his nose. If you miss, you're probably missing to the side and you can take out his eyes," or "If you can get this far outside, break his wist, THEN use it for control." A lot of people I know in Aikido and Karate train aiming for important parts, but it's never really addressed as such. I'm explicitly told to aim for arteries and nerve clusters and the like in order to inflict as much damage as possible. At the end of the day, we all aim for the same bits, except I actually know that I'm aiming for it. It's really interesting to see 1) How martial arts are take different routes to the same objective, and 2) How "mainstream" martial arts almost need to advertise based on that definition as a "sport." You're competing, not fighting, y'know?


Also, anyone who says "The Fed" isn't really that well trained needs to try fighting the man.

Side note: Man, I would love to move to Russia to study Sambo.

I would think that if it were slave vs slave. But IIRC, there were some gladiators that made a living off of their gladiatorial games. The ripe bold age of 30 then they get a spear to the gut. ;)

I hear tell that gladiatorial combat for the most part wasn't nearly as deadly as people think it was. Generally speaking every gladiator was an investment in terms of training and feeding and such. Plus you could rent them to rich women. I can't recall exactly what the History Channel program said but I do remember that generally speaking as long as blood was drawn and the fight was good the crowds were cool with gladiators living. You just really didn't want to be the main attraction on a day when all the other fights didn't go very good because by time it was your turn the crowd would be out for blood. For some reason I got the impression one or two deaths in a day where 20-30 men might fight was fine.