Pre-emptive Sony News thread.
 

Well, FF13 is out Tuesday, and my brother was kind enough to pre-order it for me today. No guide, but that just means it'll be more of a challenge and there might be something left not totally ruined for me from having followed it through production.

In other news, the PS3 motion controller's name has been leaked as the PlayStation Arc, which Sony has yet to confirm, but we all know how well they keep secrets and they have a domain registered for it, among other things. It's set to debut this fall, just to make sure it's in perfect working order to compete with Natal, released about the same time. The final design could be described as a man's electric razor with a light bulb on top, but I'll let you guys judge.

I really don't care what it looks like so long as it works as well as it did in the demo and doesn't cause my hand shocking pain from holding it.

Let the countdown begin!

...

The jokes are going to be endless about the nipple top. Seriously, I hope they tone down the force feedback. That gets annoying after a while.

Hey I think my ex had one of those. She didn't say Sony made it, though.

Sony is a genius.

They alone are exploiting the enormous potential that lies in combining a motion controller and a vibrator.

My good it's wiipuns all over again....

I honestly don't know why this thing is getting the attention it is.
 

Pre-emptive, pfft. I'm playing FF13 right now!

Dread that Gamefly will actually send it to me on time.
 

I'd be jealous if that was a game other than FFXIII. Instead I am filled with dread.

The difference is that the Wii-mote took three years to do what it was always supposed to do.

This one has been shown to already work like a dream, and while it's not a light gun like the Wii setup, I see no reason it can't be used for point and click if someone wants it to be. The difference is that it already does more than that and can also theoretically include some body-tracking due to there being an actual camera, so it's really more like a happy medium between MotionPlus and Natal, which from my perspective is exciting, because it could easily mean the whole is more than the sum of the parts.

Basically, I see this as a system with a lot of potential and hope that it's used effectively.

Yeah the fact that the Wii was marketed to do things it didn't do until Nintendo sold you an attachment to fix it has a majority to do with why I'm at least curious.

Having said thus, fuck motion control.

Arc+ will make the Arc do what it was originally promised to.
 

There are several things wrong with what you're saying, but I'll choose to take issue with the part where you're assuming that one device will live up to its prerelease hype while at the same time criticizing another for not living up to its prerelease hype.

Good luck with that.

If this thing does not go in a ton of butts and vaginas I will lose all faith in this country.

How french of you!

You cannot pre-empt news.

That is all.

I'd be jealous if FF games were any good.

If they were, you would be playing it, so you wouldn't be jealous would you?

FUCKING WOULD YOU??

What if I'm the kind of douchebag who would hate them for being popular anyway while secretly wishing I could play them?

Two can play at this game, asshole.

Then I wouldn't even be reading your posts because I would be too busy playing FFXIII and being entertained with excellent gameplay and a compelling story.

Yeah but the discussion of hypothetical realities where FF doesn't suck wouldn't have come up in the first place.

How about opposite day? You sayin' we couldn't have conversations like that on opposite day, punk?

It's always opposite day.

No it'd be a discussion of a hypothetical reality where FF sucks and god what a horrid place that would be to live I bet Bush won the presidency and there'd be atomic bombs and shit oh god.

Does that mean we're the evil universe?

Ah, yes, the "evil" universe. We have dismissed these claims.

We are in the shitty universe.

We are in a universe where games companies are spending ludicrous amounts of cash trying to make motion controllers that work. That should tell you just how shitty this universe is.


I agree with Noncon and Mirai, fuck motion control. Why does anyone want or care about this? We've had a perfectly fine controller system that's been around for several decades now. They're called "controllers". They allow us to accurately and easily control whatever is on the screen with the minimum of hassle. Why the fuck would I trade that in for a giant glowing dildo that I have to wave around in front of a camera??

And seeing as how about 80% of games these days are FPS' and action games, how in the hell does a dildo controller help to control that anyway? I can honestly see this thing being released, the world takes 1 look, bursts out laughing and then goes back to playing CoD with a normal, not fucked up controller.

Back in my day, we had to control games by moving pins on the circuit board and it worked perfectely fine. Fuck you kids and your buttons.

THE circuit board? Like, did you all share, or what?

I think that Turian may have revolutionized how we debate.

The difference is that the Arc has already been SHOWN to work wonderfully and to do exactly what they claim it will.

I'll admit I've not really followed the development of the Playstation Vib Arc, but I'd assume that this was showcased using Sony games and showcased by Sony people?

Indeed.

Well, yes. But it's still pretty impressive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

I'm sure the Wii tech demos were nothing like that.

Finally I can load up my PS3 and live my ultimate fantasy!

See let me clarify my statement for a second - motion control might not be terrible if it could work right. But our current controllers went through like 40 years of development starting with the Atari or whatnot before getting to the type of good stuff like the 360 controller, or the PS2 one.

I'm not holding to the faith that the first versions of this experimental technology are going to be anything less than ass.

According to your profile I'm older than you, and I know for a fact we had 4 buttons and D-pad.

I still prefer my "motion sensor built into a normal remote" strategy.
 

You are so gullible its stupid.

And seriously, what little I saw of them showing it off looked like shit.

Yeah, being (roughly) a year younger, I'm sure it's pretty safe to say you were at least typing in your games. Man, we should make kids do that again. It'll teach them awesome words like "bouillon" again. If you can't spell correctly, you can't play the game. Literacy, ahoy! :p



Edit:
No need to get snippy. And, uh, what the hell were you expecting? It's test software. It's a ten-minute video showing off its technical capabilities, not a sneak peek into the next blockbuster.

Admittedly, it would have helped if the guy using the control system didn't totally suck at games, but even as uncoordinated as he was, it did everything exactly as he did, so I really don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that you're expecting everything to work exactly according to a tech demo put together and done by Sony people. Maybe if you had a link to some people whose paycheck didn't depend on making it look like the BEST THING EVAR, I'd maybe give you some credit. Instead, from my perspective, you're pretty much saying "The Wii didn't live up to its tech demos but the Arc will because shutupshutupshutup."

On top of all this, I honestly can't see any games that try to use this being anything beyond gimmicky and terrible. It's a ripoff of a control scheme that I'm not too fond of even on the system it was invented for. I'd bet dollars to dimes that the games that will use this will utterly fail to use it in an actually useful or interesting way. Most of the games that do use the Arc will be *gasp* shovelware crap because that's what the target demographic will buy. There may be a handful of games that are decent or even more than decent, but I expect anything that good will also have a normal control scheme that will be superior to the Arc in every goddamn way. In fact, I expect Sony's grab at the market for shovelware and motion controls will fall flat on its face because why would publishers choose the PS3 when they can opt for the Wii, which is much cheaper to develop for.

EDIT: I mean, I'll concede that I'm being a douche about it, but at this point I'm honestly baffled about how anyone can be excited for Arc or Natal.

NonCon, you remember when the Wii was released right along with MotionPlus? No? Good, we're still in the same reality, then.

Put simply, they're promising full 1:1 off the bat and have shown their system has it. Wii promised, or at least implied, the same thing and didn't. And really, you said yourself that the tech demo looked like crap. To be expected, sure, but the developers of the system made it for testing purposes, as in they put zero time and money into it. It was thrown together just to make sure the features all worked. The real software using the device is going to have a LOT more time and money put in, because they won't be busy developing the device. It's like blaming Chrono Team for Dragon Quest issues. Parallel jobs, here.

On shovelware, why should anyone, according to your own logic, produce it for the PS3 when the Wii is easier and cheaper to develop for? Wii still has a large market share, does it not? Have they all been evaporating? No? Well, then. Also, many GOOD games are going to see a retrofit, including Little Big Planet and RE5, to offer a new way to play.

On gimmick, sure, maybe. I'll give you that one. On the other hand, traditional controllers aren't going away, either. If you don't like the wand-waving, you can always go back to the old system. There are advantages and disadvantages to any control system, and motion controls are better suited to some games than others. It might finally open up console RTS, as shown in the demo. Maybe you'll be able to actually sword at stuff in Oblivion now and feel a satisfying rumble as you knock a guy's block off with Rockbreaker.



My point is that I still possess a little joy and wonder in the world (really!) and am willing to give this a chance. If it's good, GREAT! If it falls by the wayside, well, it still has the old control system, $30 down, not the end of the world. If you're into that sort of thing, plug it into a 2P game, world's cheapest vibrator, amirite? ;)

Maybe if you were a pussy.

Also Sony cannot live up to their promises unless they have broken the laws of physics. In that demo he said control was 1:1 which is impossible. So there is no point saying Sony can live up to that because they can't.

YOU'RE impossible!

Smarty, we both know that that's an empty argument. 1:1 is an asymptote that can be approached and never reached, but after a certain point, the lag is so minimal that a human can't tell the difference, which is where we're at right now. It's EFFECTIVELY 1:1, close enough where you can round without it making much difference.

Unless we see some actual lag when games hit shelves, the technicality isn't going to be an issue.

You're giving Sony a lot of credit.
I'd rather say "When we see some actual lag..." and then swallow my words when EVERY game to get this technology implemented doesn't lag, than be so sure about technology that's in it's children shoes.

Don't forget to separate Hardware from Software. If the Hardware Sony made has Lag, it's Sony's fault. If Software Sony made has Lag with the Hardware sony made, it's sony's fault.

But if it's from a 3rd party, how the hell can you blame Sony for it?

Also, you guys give technology waaaay too little credit. Everything on the Arc is already around since 2004

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+demo&pl=true#

There is no reason (beyond Pessimistic Skepticism) to believe that Sony might Have not improved upon it's concept and execution.

I trully believe that the Arc just might be better than Natal for most games, and that Natal is a much more casual thing, and that BOTH surpass what Nintendo promised for the Wii and never really got there to do.

Sure, Motion controls are a craze that eventually will be scaled down... but it's not an awful thing. And proper execution only comes with proper Tools, and Sony just showed they have those tools... anyone has any Pre-launch tech demos that aren't over hyped commercials that shows the Wii doing anything beyond "Wiisports" level?

You're not really seeing the logic of the statement. What I'm saying is:

The technicality of the impossibility of true 1:1 motion will be an issue IF AND ONLY IF there is significant lag which cannot be easily rounded to 0 and the motions sensed do not, in fact, turn out to have sub-millimeter precision.

I'm not saying there's no chance whatsoever of significant lag, or even someone biffing on the controls somehow. Just that if there isn't, Smarty can't be a killjoy because nobody will know the difference or care. If and when the first instance occurs, we can all be collectively disappointed.


Edit: Also, see above.

I hate words.
 

Hey, remember when that was kind of my fucking point? No? Read again.

No. They're promising full 1:1 and have shown their tech demo has it... maybe...

I welcome you all once again to the point I was making about how publishers lie to you, and so do tech demos. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

Okay, so let me get this straight... because I don't want to get anything wrong here... but if you're saying what I think you're saying... that's a pretty terrible argument there Blues.

You're claiming that what we were shown in the tech demo wasn't what we'll actually be getting. So, what they showed during the tech demo doesn't exist... not really. What we're getting is something different that promises what was shown in the tech demo. I remind you that this is a tech demo that, despite being built around "Hey guys look at this awesome glowing dildo and all it can do!", looked like shit. Your argument in support of the product is that the tech demo showed that it can do what they promise, yet you follow that with "Well complaining about the tech demo is dumb because that isn't the real product."?

So... in short... I can't bitch about the tech demo because that product doesn't exist, but it still proves that what they're selling will work?

I have an anecdote for you all. One time I said that most of the software for a product would be shovelware, because purchasers of shovelware were the prime demographic. I take this moment to remind you that although the Wii has the shovelware market cornered pretty well, meaning that most shovelware software will be for the Wii, it is not the only console with shovelware. Anyways, I also made a point to mention that there would probably be good games that took advantage of the Arc. However, I followed that with the statement that the Arc controls would most likely be inferior to the standard controls. Why? Because this is something we observed on the Wii, and since the Arc is a very similar product, it's safe to say that that will probably carry over. My anecdote concludes with Blues ignoring all these points because he has JOY and WONDER and apparently that's enough to discredit reality.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You think that developers are going to do SO POORLY with this that they can fuck up both hardware and a software package they didn't make? Granted, maybe someone WILL dick around with the software that makes the system tick, but that kind of defeats the whole purpose of having it unless you know you have something to add and requires permission to add it. That would be like someone deciding they didn't like the way a conventional controller operated and messing with it. If you want to modify a control scheme there are MUCH easier ways of doing it.


Maybe I need to clarify. What I'm saying is that the tech demo was there for the sole purpose of showing off the hardware and software behind it. It was there solely to express the basics. What they did could best be compared to making a piano and hitting every key to show that it works. It's not the music that's going to be eventually played on the piano. Same thing here. They showed off the basics of the control system and it's up to someone else to write some real content for it. You have a piano and working keys, but someone else is going to write the songs.


Nonsie, buddy, if you think any system will ever be safe from shovelware, you are far more optimistic than I. I'll admit to having missed you saying there will be good games for the arc, probably because I read it as being very backhanded in a fast transition. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't even make financial sense to continuously write shovelware for anything but the Wii because nobody who owns anything else is going to BUY it. The Wii has marketed itself as a casual system, where the 360 and PS3 have catered MUCH more heavily to a hardcore audience who simply won't put up with that shit. Any attempts to flood either system with shovelware are likely to result in dismal failure because the people who are willing to pay the price tags of the systems are the people who know what's going on in the market.

Basically, shovelware is unlikely because of:
- prohibitive costs
- which are unlikely to be recouped
- because of a hardcore ownership

The developers working with the Arc are in essence going to have to be DAMN sure they make their money back, and the games they write are probably going to rely pretty heavily on the Arc's capabilities. But you know what else? They're still going to have to be playable with normal controls. Sony seems set on making the Arc an equal partner to the normal controller. And they have some pretty hefty guidelines to determine what does and doesn't get published. Companies are going to have to put EXTRA time and money into making the Arc work with their games, meaning the stakes for writing a game around it are that much higher.

With the Wii, the gimmick controls were the default. With the PS3, they're not. The Arc is in every way a risk to a developer, because if they don't utilize it well, it's a LOT of time and money down the drain. The fact of the matter is that there's absolutely nothing stopping people from not developing around it, so the people who do are more likely to either do a damn good job with it or pay the price if they don't.



I really do take offense at your indication I don't know reality. As a person who would like to enter the industry, I have to think about this kind of shit. Maybe I just have a better understanding of it or maybe it IS a matter of joy and wonder, but you can't deny I have a valid argument.

Peace out, waffle-irons.
 

Actually I can deny it. Lookitme denying that Blues has a valid argument, wheeeee! I am especially comfortable doing this as I seem to make a point and you seem to be looking the opposite direction telling me that something other that what I said was wrong. I can't even bother to argue with any of the points you're making because they're so very detached from what I'm saying I really don't know how to respond.

I'm being overly dickish, but every time I think I should apologize, I read that bit about JOY and WONDARRRRRRRGHFUCKMYBRAIN

It just triggers that little part of my brain that makes me want to punch all the people.

Natal will slice out a huge chunk of the market with their dynamicterrible and entirely scripted pedophile simulation.

Edit:


Like sixaxis

I can't help but wonder if this all stems from us speaking from entirely different perspectives. See, I'm a graduated programmer at this point and could get a job if I weren't still working on my BS. I'm thinking in technical and business terms, which doesn't seem to be meshing well with your arguments when I try to explain them.

I'm guessing you're coming from a player's perspective, and a rather rightfully jaded one.

Because I have at least an idea behind the processes that go into this kind of thing, I'm trying to explain why the system is going to be functional and why it doesn't make sense to throw money away on not using it well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're probably expressing your simple dislike for the setup of the system and predicting that people aren't going to know what to do with it at first and generally that you're not going to like it.

Mr. Apple, meet Mr. Orange.

My concern isn't that it's going to suck, and at no point did I ever comment on that. My concern is that it's a solid system technically and I'm excited to see what they do with it after they figure it out and all the shovelware companies crawl back to the Wii.

If any of my guesses to your arguments are true, you're essentially wasting your time, because, yeah, the first games out for ANY system are shit. Fact of life. I'm looking at the potential this control system provides and am not concerned with the content at this point. That will sort itself out in due time, and I actually am excited about the prospect of a new, working control system for my system of choice. If you're not, well, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind about it.



EDIT: @DFM: SixAxis wasn't necessary to gameplay and thus was often treated poorly when it was used. On the other hand, the games that used it well (Flower and Folklore) used it well the same way anything is used well in games: it was made a core part of gameplay.

Speaking from the perspective that the Arc's system is MEANT to be a core part of gameplay, it'll probably fare better after the initial surge settles a bit.

I really have no idea what you're expecting them to pull off beside PlaySports.

More likely we'll get a few gimmick/shovelware games that use it as a primary controller, a few AAA games that use it as a "Hey if you've got this thing we've got controls for it" half-assed scheme, and then everyone will forget it ever existed.

Well, the tech demo itself had an RTS, and RTS is just one of those things that works best with point and click controls. Not that I'm into RTS, but it's still an interesting prospect.

Aside from that, FPS could easily see benefit from it, allowing much easier manual aiming, where console FPS in general relies on auto-targeting to compensate at this point.

You could also incorporate it into 3rd-person puzzle-solving in any number of genres.

Basically, there are definite places it could be used, and a couple off the top of my head where it would be of definite benefit.

All those things (Besides maybe the RTS, I'm not aware of an RTS) have already been done on the Wii and I don't think it rocked anyone's boxers or revolutionized motion controlling. Metro Prime maybe rocked boxers, but I don't think many other games have incorporated that control scheme.

To be honest, I'm not expecting motion controls to become the standard until we get VR gloves that work on the market, but I tend to keep in mind that everything's been done before and I frankly don't care as long as it's done well.

And with that, I'm going to attempt to step out of the Arc conversation, which I really didn't expect to dominate the thread. I may not be successful, but at the moment, I'm out of things to say about it.

There is ONE thing i don't know about ARC that would be a major deal for me.

I hear it during the E3 demonstration it has a Analog Button.

Does the controller has an Analog Stick ALSO, or just a few pressure sensitive buttons?

Because, if it has an Analog Stick (or even a Dpad in it) it could easily be used in TONS of Games. Not just RTS's, but also RPG's and FPS's.

I think what they mean is that the buttons are pressure-sensitive. The more you pull the trigger, for instance, the more it registers.

Unless that central thumb button is one, but I can't seem to find info one way or another.

Uncharted: Hey look at the sixaxis!

Uncharted 2: Yeah, that was pretty stupid. We took the sixaxis out.

You know, Nonny, anytime I read game threads it seems like you and Blues are getting into it.

SSDD, I get it. Except he's at least trying to be reasonable, regardless of your opinion of the validity of his arguments.

You clearly recognize that you might not be on the right of well, you know, not being a dick, and it's not like this is anything new, so maybe you should consider a break from the forums.

Oh man pressure sensitive buttons. That's so 80s. And will break within a week.

Well, watching the tech demo again, it seems like the trigger for sure will be analog, which is already true for the standard controller. Solid info on exact specifics is hard to come by at the moment.

My first GCN controller L & R buttons work fine, even after years of SSBM. If Sony makes their buttons as sturdy as the GCN's controller, it should be fine.

Well... nobody beats Nintendo at that. Their products are near "Military Use" quality when it comes to Resistance

Owned by Microsoft

Yep, time for a change.

Yeah well my NES still works after having played street cricket with it. Nintendo standard is a bit different to Sony standard.

Dude, every shooter on the Wii since Metroid Prime 3 has aped that control scheme, or at least the "Move with the stick, aim and turn with the pointer" bit.

I'll see myself out.

My PS2 controller has held up pretty well over the years. That can be considered a good sign.

(My PS2 is a Version 3.0)

I still have a gray controller that works like it always did. Only issue is a bit of the rubber on the left analog is torn off.

Since we're talking about ancient controllers that work, I currently have a gray non-dualshock Playstation 1 controller that I got with my Playstation back in '97 ('98? One of those years >.>).

In the amount of time that I've had my original PSX and controller, I've owned three different PS2s and well over a dozen PS2 controllers. None of those work anymore.

It's part of the reason I didn't get a PS3, but that's neither here nor there.

Same here except it's completely off now.

That seems to be a common problem.

All I can imagine is you dropping them all off cliffs, because I've only ever owned one PS2 and one standard PS2 controller, and mine is one of the first slimline models. In the period I've owned it, I've only had one controller actually die on me and it was third-party (it lost a pin).

And no offense, but I used to keep mine on carpet, so, uh, damn, man. :sweatdrop

The PSX analog and the PS2 controllers are some of the sturdiest controllers I've ever owned, with a degree of complexity that is. The N64 controllers wore out so fast due to the analog stick, but the Nintendo GCN controllers were definitely a cut above.

Always go first party for controllers.

No see, it's very simple: Technology hates me. Every system I've ever owned has suffered some sort of massive failure, save that PSX. The PS2 especially seems destined to fail in my hands, though the slim I currently have (My fourth PS2 total) works fine for now. Except that now DVDs are starting to get massively hot and start skipping after five-ten minutes, so I bought a DVD player to remedy that situation >.>

???http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...lee-1-100k.jpg

That's Jubeli (sp) right?

What is wrong with her face? Jeez Marvel why does her face look like a fish?

I don't actually play the Wii, it is for children.

Ouch, that one is going to leave a mark. :(

Ice Man sucker punched her and she must have liked every second of it. Other than that, I wish I hadn't seen that. Now I'm going to have nightmares...

Did I just miss a conference unveiling PS Move, PSWii Sports, PSWii Boxing, and PSWii Party?

Guys this news thread is the suck.

God damn it, that sounded like an awesome presentation! But i wanted more videos of it... =/

One very positive thing: Camera + PS Move = Under $100

One very (probably) bad thing: Many games seem to use 2 Glowsticks...

One disappointment: The could've added the analog stick on the Move itself, i don't see the point of the "nonchuck"

SOCOM 4 already has support for it, and it seems smooth... and pretty much every single major 3rd party is on board with it.

I thought everyone was joking about the thing (Move? Damn, that one probably came from a bunch of frenzied guys in a meeting room) having its own nunchuck, but no, the thing seriously has its own nunchuck, only it lacks a connecting cord. On one hand, that explains how they're going to keep compatibility, but on the other, what the fuck, Sony? Seriously, I never thought I'd have to say that, but not only were people already ragging on the Move for being too much like the Wii-mote, you had to go and give it its own vestigial tail? The only saving grace of it is that nothing mentions it being part of the movement control scheme and it has proper L1 and L2 (and assumedly L3) buttons, but unless the thumb button and trigger on the Move act as R1 and R2 (no R3), there might be issues. Heck, with the inane controls devs have these days, not having R3 might cause issues, never mind missing the right analog for camera.

Still would like to check it out, but my interest's taken a small hit. I'll have to see what games have better control schemes and go from there.