Something to discuss.
 

This, well, this honestly pisses me off: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/

Now, I could just write it off as Scott for some reason choosing to be a douche, because he's being very good at it. But instead of that, I'm going to ask a question. Just how much can you strip away from something before it passes the proverbial atom?

To illustrate this, Scott's point is that if you strip away all the plot, characters, graphics, music, and strategy, RPGs are shit. My argument is, of COURSE they're shit. You just stripped away every aspect of the game but the time.

So I'm leaving this open. How far can you strip a game, any game, before it's lost all that it is?

It would seem his point is more that the newest final fantasy games takes away all the GOOD of JRPGs, leaving only the bad.

Whoa whoa whoa.

People still read VG-Cats?

Well, he'd be wrong, because FF13 has plot, characters, graphics, music, and strategy. You know, stuff that makes a decent game. If all he wanted to do was bitch about the game being linear, he didn't need to target JRPGs as a whole and he certainly didn't need to do it by arguing that an entire genre is shit just because he's butthurt that the game follows its basic conventions.


@ Mac: No, he's probably lost 90% of his audience with his constant failure to update with any consistency, but I was scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I am going to venture a guess that Scott's view of jRPG's is somewhat dim. To him the only ones of that genre are Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. He dismisses ones like Persona, Disgaea, Lunar, Star Ocean, Suikoden and all the others. Now granted some of these listed aren't very good. But Persona is incredibly well received to the point that even Spoony likes it.

Whilst I am not the biggest Spoony fan, I see it if he likes it then there has to be something good about it.

Whoa whoa whoa

Someone still writes VGCats?

You'd have a point if that was what he said, but he said it took away 'engaging characters, story and any semblance of strategy by restricting it to one person.' You can argue whether or not FF13 has those or not, though I'd be inclined to agree since I didn't engage with any of the characters aside from Sazh, and making the death of the leader end the game was really stupid, if you take away engaging characters and a decent strategy, then the game will be a very common, bland jrpg, because it won't stand out from the legion of other jrpgs out there.

It doesn't seem like all he wanted to do was bitch about linearity because he did bring up those other points as well as generic music, so I think he was just disappointed in a game that didn't live up to the franchise as a whole, rather than bitching about one little game that upset him.

I don't even read VG Cats, so the guy might be a douche. All I'm saying is I can see his point. It's not particularly articulate and it's not very well represented but I can see it.

Ninja Edit:

@Blues

No, Prems is right, he's saying that whatever the new Final Fantasy is is a bad game. He likes Final Fantasy. He doesn't like the core mechanics of JRPGs but he likes Final Fantasy because of all the other things they add. He then says that this new Final Fantasy doesn't have that. Not in the sense that they are not physically present, there are obviously characters in the game, but in the sense that they are not good characters, and they are acting out a not good plot.

He's not saying anything about RPGs being shit if you take out all those parts. The comic isn't even about JRPGs being shit, it's an offhand mention in the first two panels and not at all what the comic's about.

I think you're getting all offended at the drop of a hat because it's almost like you're going out of your way to find something to get offended at.

I think writing it was outsourced to the Dalek homeworld years ago.

No, i think Blues has a point. It's a bad rant... one where the guy tries to make the whole "It's a bad game because i don't like it" point like it was a real point to make... for any game.

Also the whole "jRPG's are shit" is quite tiring, and honestly, a very stupid argument to stand behind. Also one of the reasons why i can't stand the Escapist Forums.

So you guys do know that the joke is that the rant is a bad rant, right?

That's what the whole punchline at the end was about.

I enjoyed the implication that his previous rants weren't.

EDIT AGAIN

@Bels

I don't know how you'd classify a rant as either good or bad, it's not like they're a persuasive piece. I suppose you could rank it based on how entertained you were by someone venting their dislike of something, but that's hardly a universal criteria.

I'm also not sure what else someone's supposed to do when saying a game is bad besides "I don't like it here's why..." which is what the comic is. Should the first panel just be a big red "IN MY OPINION..." or "THIS MAY NOT HOLD TRUE FOR EVERYONE, BUT..." ?

AND how is "JRPG's are shit" an argument for anything at all? Unless you're just tired of people saying they don't like JRPGs in which case I can understand where you're coming from sort of.

Yeah, that was pretty loltastic, too.

I guess it kinda depends on what you expect a "Rant" to be.

You see, check Yahtze's Extra Punctuation at the Escapist. That's his weekly rant. It's not really a blog post or a columm it's a rant. But he knows how to do it. He vents, and points himself giving props and cons to the subject. Yet, he manages to pummel the title the way he wants to but not without showing that he at least bothered to think about it first. That's what i would call a good rant, not a fanboyish meltdown.

Sure, a webcomic is another beast entirely, and it doesn't work the same way... but like it was pointed out "that's the joke". Personally, i didn't find it insightful or funny.

Now, the difference between "I don't like this game" and "This is a bad game" is that i can dislike a good game, and i can like a bad game.

For example, i REALLY like "Just Dance" for the Wii. If you look at the game reviews and use that as a medium, it's a bad game. I know the parts of the game that are bad and i agree to some point, but i just enjoy the game a great deal. It's not a great game, but i like it. So, i Like a Bad Game.

On the other hand, i Played Kotor:TsL and i didn't like it. But i do recognize it as a good game, it's well made and polished. But i found it boring and quite slow. So much that i only had fun with it when i added a mod to use 2 hand weapons with one hand (Dual Double Sided Lightsabers!!!). So in this game, i Dislike a good game.

See: Noob Effect
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s

I think Blues just ran out of other things to "discuss" that he's now grasping at straws

This whole thing more or less is just Scott expressing his dislike of FF13. Really nothing to get offended about.

Woah woah woah woah Bells.

Bells.

Did you just call The Sith Lords polished?

I thought KotoR2: TSL main problem was it had no polish due to being rushed and made in like 13 months or something stupidly short like that. Damn you Lucasarts you filthy goddamn pieces of shit! I WANTED THAT RESOTRED CONTENT PATCH!

but yeah I think the comic is just him complaining about FF13 which is perfectly valid as that game was terrible in every way but graphics, especially compared to FF12.

I dunno. I really enjoyed XIII's gameplay. My main problem with said gameplay was that there was nothing to break it up. Sazh's bit was one of the better emotional bits in franchise history, too. Not that there isn't a lot to hate about the game, but it certainly wasn't terrible in every way but graphics.

Well I'd generally agree with his assessment of FF13, accounting for the massive hyperbole of course.

Yeah, okay combat wasn't bad, but I still say it's inferior to the last couple of games in the series and certainly to the likes of the Tales and Persona games. I guess it was better than FF9 and down's combat then? And FFX-2 as well, but that doesn't count that much really.

And the Sazh bit was okay, but the entire time I had to deal with the rest of the cast I was just thinking back to Persona 4 or Tales of Vesperia and going "goddamnit hire some dialogue writer's Square, do the people in your building actually speak to other people or are you goddamn apes with no idea how people frigging talk". I mean FFs have never had great dialogue, but they usually made up for it with a decent over arching story and excellent world building, FF12, 10, 7 and 6 particularly exemplified this. 13 just didn't make me care about anything and the world bored me most of the time and when it did interest me, I couldn't explore it cause it was so goddamn linear. And the music was unremarkable and the villains which are usually one of FFs strong points sucked horribly. About the only parts I don't have much to complain about are graphics and character design (I know Nomura annoys some people but I've never minded him too much and think he did a good job here, and zipper Odin almost seemed like self-parody).

I mean sure it wasn't as bad as Star Ocean 4, Infinite Undiscovery or Eternal Sonata but FF is usually one of the better series, not one that just beats terrible and scrapes into mediocre.

That is Mister Potatamoto and Ken Zucchini disagreeing with the rant, so I guess that's more like Scott saying "The game publishers don't like it when you diss their big name games" than ironically admitting his rant sucks.

Which really doesn't help his case.

I have honestly used the Man these peas ROCK line once at a dinner where people started fighting, and it was hilarious to me and one kid who had read the strip. Many old VG Cats strips are classic; enduring humor that had a part in shaping history and bears rereading year after year. It's sad to see how much the rare updates suck now. The last really good strip was. . .well, three strips ago. But prior to that it's mostly junk all the way back to 2008. In my opinion.

Funny that the comic only seems to do its best when focusing on the characters instead of putting a satire on Game X. The road to nowhere probably started when they killed off Dr. Hobo. Hypothesis: Less VG, more Cats equals better comix.

Now to trawl the archives looking for proof.

Now now... for it's time it was Graphically ok. The sound was good and the story was... well, it was nice. The pacing sucked for me and most characters that had characterization felt like "mid work". It dragged like a bitch sometimes and i felt like saving the unniverse revolved around a lot of crap gathering

Like, i'm meeting these people and i just feel like they go "Silent NPC" way too fast for me to connect. Or when i meeting them i just feel like "Hum... it's like i skipped some early parts or something"

Bells that's because it was unfinished. Lucasarts forced Obsidian to release it basically in late BETA stage with lots of cut content(one entire level (the game had 5 in the end) gone, and dozens of sidequests and many, many dialogues cut). There was an excellent Let's Play, explaining all the cut content somewhere.

Basically the whole problem with the Sith Lords, was a complete lack of polish.

VG Cats updates with a comic containing transparent and overwrought metaphors that ends three panels either before or after it should have, news at 11.

You know, I really did mean for this to be a discussion of what makes the base of a game, but looking at my reply in this thread, I mishandled that worse than I usually do.

I suppose I'll just make a new thread in the games forum with a bit more clarity.

Actually, it's his previous shitty allegories saying his current shitty allegory sucks. It's why the comic is entitled "Subtlety," because some amount of which is necessary for a good allegorical rant and it was the one thing very much missing from the comic.

Well that was too subtle for me.

...How ironic.

Well, it was pretty lame all around so the fact that his actual punchline was so potentially confusing is really testament to that.

Since we're done discussing whatever this thread was about this looks like a good thread to request a namechange to Whipple Scrumptious Fudgemallow Delight, mods please make that happen soonish kthx.

Are you sure you don't want a Scrumdiddlyumptious bar?

No, I think think Fifthsy is on to something here.

That Wonka. The man was a fucking genius when it came to candy and enslaving midgets.

Pity he went insane and started murdering people in his factory though.

Thank you Wigmund, I was worried I would be sleeping tonight. Thank you for ensuring that will not be an issue.

What the fuck!?! Dude!

There's no earthly way of knowing which direction we are going; there's no knowing where we're rowing, or which way the river's flowing! Is it raining? Is it snowing? Is a hurricane a-blowing? Not a speck of light is showing, so the danger must be growing! Are the fires of hell a-glowing? Is the grisly reaper mowing? Yes! The danger must be growing, for the rowers keep on rowing, and they're certainly not showing any signs that they are slowing!

That excited to see Lloyd being fucking awesome and having extreme range that makes most actors shrivel like a cold day in the locker room?

Insomnia
 

This.

This too.

Yeah, sure, why not* (note: I am in no way disparraging the man's talent. He's fantastic. Sometimes, however, I do wonder about him.)?

That wasn't even disturbing to me...

Wait... Should I be concerned simply because it didn't freak me out? :ohdear:

My BONER has weird old candy bars.

That's nice DFM.

NPF: no attention span whatsoever.

Look: a distraction!
 

Now, now, Meister, I don't think that's exactly fai- SHINEY!

Sleep is over-rated

Excuse me Mister Meister, but what is this attention span you speak of?

It's a mental feature people on other sites use to avoid derailing threads completely the very second someone comes along and declares the original topic done like they'd been waiting for an excuse.

e: vv I took it to be kind of an obvious thing to avoid, to be honest.

Now see if you'd just said that in the first place it might've meant something.

Hey look it's Meister being condescending, been five or six whole minutes since that one happened.

People on other forums must really enjoy excruciatingly terrible topics.

EDIT BUt no I mean let's rush back to discussing Scott Ramsoomair's shit-covered balls.

EDIT So man that Roald Dahl was a hell of a writer eh what? Matilda! So charming, so magical, so hateful towards educators.

EDIT I've always meant to ask whether anyone else ever tried picking up the blackboard chalk with their minds because I totally spent like all of gradeschool doing that.

EDIT Hahaha, wow.

Hey Fifth if there's a thread about Scott Ramsoomair's balls and you wouldn't like to discuss Scott Ramsoomair's balls you're welcome to not read the thread about Scott Ramsoomair's balls. You should know better than to spam it up, and a bunch of you others should know better than to take the bait.

e: yeah, hahaha wow, we actually give out warnings for things we explicitly tell everyone we'll give out warnings for. What's this forum coming to.

Anticipating a few PMs so I'm putting this here to save myself time:
Things that contribute to a topic about the nature of jRPGs and the latest VG Cats: posts about jRPGs, about the latest VG Cats, about other video games, sure, about VG Cats in general, totally. Things that don't: posts about candy and Willy Wonka and Christopher Lloyd no matter how awesome 2 out of 3 of those are.

I mean yeah we've been massively letting things like that slide lately but that's really something you rely on at your own peril, so to speak.

Fifth you might still be steamed about how we treated you and there's definitely nothing that can ever really be done to make up for it but quit shitting up the forums to protest the result of our actions. The little sarcastic rage against the machine 'tude is seriously getting old and tired (I mean really dude, you made an entire thread in the 'forum related stuff' section to publicly bitch Meister out over something he said months ago which you didn't support) and while it would be a lie to say I'm at my wit's end, it would also be a lie to say I haven't considered banning the shit out of you once and for all to not have to put up with it anymore.

I haven't partly because people here like you, and partly because you used to honest to god just be a fun guy to hang around. Before the whole sarcastic over-the-top stuff. I personally like (and liked) having you around here to a point, that point being the particular line between fun-fifth and jackass-fifth, that line which is becoming increasingly blurred day to day.

Yes, we fucked you over, and we took it in the shorts, but just...let it go, dude. I'm sorry, okay? Publicly and honestly. Now just, come on man.