Sex Scenes in games: Deep gameplay or CHEEEEEEEEEEESE
 

So... the latest one? Alpha Protocol. And it's just... gawh, this is awkward.

I mean, this is a trend i really really really want to stop. These scenes aren't good. They do nothing for the characters, plot, unniverse, gameplay... ever.

In one moment you're playing as a spy or medieval hunter in this world of danger running against the clock to save the day and then... bam! You appear in a REALLY cheesy low quality Softcore porn scene...

I can see the appeal for angry frustrated virgin teens, but c'mon if you are willing to pick up a game because of crap like this, just walk the extra mile and get a Sex game already....

Or use Google. It's not like there isn't plenty out there.

I'll say that Bioware gets a pass, just because they actually make it a relationship thing instead of just fucking. I mean, there IS that, or there was in the first game, but the people are clearly in love, rather than just having an awkward porno in the middle of the game.

There is no trend. GTA, GoW, and this are the only few games that do it and get past the radar.

Besides, it's America. Sex scenes in games out side of Ao titles will never fly. Not if the FCC has anything to say about it.

No, Bioware gives pornos in game, Jake is a good example in ME2. But seriously, crappy sex scenes are in movies and tv and no one complains about those so yeah, I say just don't buy the game if you dont like em, they're trying to make a mature game by adding mature elements. Its not that big of an issue really.

I agree insomuch as it's not a big issue either way.

By Jake I'll assume you mean Jacob.

Fuck you. This is awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ze_R3TevE

I meant Jack, the throw down sex on the table thingy. the booty call one.

See Jake doesn't sound like Jack at all.
It sounds like Jacob.

Man, that's a shame, are you sure you're doing it right?

Almost makes you want to agree with Rodger Ebert. Almost.

Yeah, I mean... That played out pretty terribly but this is the level of sophistication you're going to get with "adult material" in games. Without making a statement of moral judgment about pornography, that's essentially what the scene was.

Honestly? I can't buy that. I see these elements and hardly ever there is actually anything in there that makes me think "this game would'nt be as mature or deep without this" or even that this was the best way to convey an emotion or thought to evolve a character or relationship.

I can completely understand an Artistic choice, i can even understand an artistic choice based on "this will help sell more copis". what i can't get behind is that this is somehow a gameplay improvement aspect or a "layer of maturity"

Seeing as these are almost always on optional part of the experience, in contrast with such things as movies where the sex scene is something you'll be seeing regardless of whether or not you want to. As such, I can't really say they hurt the experience. I played through Mass Effect 2 without any sex, and although I got the sex scenes in Origins, I skipped all of them. This didn't effect my perception of the game either way.

What do you mean "a statement of moral judgment?" If sex fits into the story and works well with how the game plays out, then sure. Work it in. Even something to leave the fans wondering. But if you want to put it in and set it to porno music, exercise your judgment, not your wrist.

I highly doubt many people buy the game because of a "sex scene". It might sell the odd extra copy but not enough to warrent the extra time they'd have to put into it to make the scene's just to sell those extra copies. I honestly think you're venting about something silly because it's nothing worse then anything in movies or TV. As Nonsie said you can even skip these or not even care about them so yeah, they put them in to add to the mature level of the game, that's about it.

plus this is the digital age, if they really want to see the scene they can go online for it.

Over all I think its the same as any other media. In fact I think its better in games. They shoe horn it into TV and movies far more often then games do. Games have an edge, Mass Effect for example had it as the culmination of an entire games worth of getting to know one another and building a relationship. There are games that toss it in because A) why not or B) free press. However the ratio of narrative appropriate to teenage wank fodder is far better in games then movies. In my opinion atleast

I dunno I'd probably be less satisfied with an RPG romance arc if I couldn't end it with being boned by my super well developed love interest Jacob Taylor and his washboard abs.



Seriously did you see that shit they're amazing.

They have pills for that now.

I don't mind sex scenes in games. And man, if that thing in Alpha Protocol actually happened to me, it would pretty damn hot.

Seriosly though, I don't like the idea that somehow adding a sex scene automatically makes the game more mature. It doesn't. Not if you don't take a mature approach to it.

This.
If it brought enough capital as an inplementation, then you've got an issue with teenagers but I'd doubt it does. In which case, what's the point in such a random, and utterly pointless. As has been said, if people are sexually frustrated enough to go looking for sex scenes in games, why don't they just use google, or better yet, use those brain cells and build an imagination?
Trying to add for maturity rating, although it will sell a fair amount more copies (In my opinion, a lot of people are shallow like this), is just silly when you don't use a mature approach. GTA is an example to some degree, I find. The gameplay isn't that great, nor the stroyline (unless you beleive different but I have yet to hear the opinion that is does), people seem to simply buy it for the oppourtunity to beat up random people and blow stuff up - where's the challenge? Where's the goal? It's empty, like a museum in a particularly uneducated area. But that's all opinion and I've started ranting at a single game rather than a collective.
It's worth it when a relationship is developed, yes, but relationships within videogames themselves seem to be a bit tacked-in these days, not a contributive part of things.

That rant got away from me there, sorry. :sweatdrop

Too often I feel a romance option was added to a game, just because 'isn't that how it's done in the movies', without any actualy thought put in to the matter.

You're dealing with Mass Media now. They take the same approach to video games as they do movies and tv shows. So yeah, to them mature=blood,guts,sex,swearing.

Not accurate but that's how it is nowadays :/

And "mature"crap seems to equal sales. :(

Well, just take a gander at hollywood. They used to turn out more good quality films then just "blockbusters" which are fun to watch but not exactly good quality films. Video Games are just slowly following in their footsteps as they get more mainstream. So yep, we either are just gonna have to grin and bare it for now and hope another cultural revolution happens soon that makes mature mean more then boobs and blood.

Heck, video games following movies is nothing new. They've been doing it for decades. Just look at a list of titles for any system and count how many of them are movie or TV show properties. It's a lot.

In fact, I'd say (without really counting and doing the math) that titles from other media were more prevalent years ago and video games are now in the process of extricating themselves from playing "follow the leader." They're still judged by different standards than movies (I'd say more harshly), and they still have a lot of blockbuster elements, but with increasing recognition of games as an art form, even that seems to be starting to change in subtle ways.

4:47 onwards.
But that's just one reasoning of what's currently wrong with gaming. Point such as this thread, and others. But the quote the video itself "we're fucking marketable", once something acutally offers money, you can make plenty without quality, so why bother with it? :(

Edit:spellings.

I do not think relationship is neccisary for mature narratively appropriate sex. Like real life sometimes people have sex just to have sex. Again, Mass Effect shows that off well with the scene with Jack. Even has abit of a moral lesson when you are told, if you want a real relationship to specifically not do that.

Of course there is also a well done Deus Sex MachinaDeus Sex Machina (I'll do you a favor and not link to tv tropes) can add alot of depth. Course I cant remember the last time it was done well, but its still possible

Good point, but you said, you can't remember when it was last done well. Can anyone else? Let's just discount anything that was made...10years ago or more. :rolleyes:

I'd argue that it's not even necessarily that. Sure, shiny graphics sell, but they only sell so much. It really doesn't explain the resurgence of 2D we're starting to see. The market is changing again as companies start to see competition from indie developers, who, by ironic merit of not having a lot of time and money, are filling the niches that games were filling 20 years ago, which is what a lot of people hitting adulthood are looking back to. Things like 2D platformers are getting a shot in the arm as people use the new technology to improve the old formulas.

With the success of taking Mega Man back to 8-bit and Sonic somewhat following suit, plus all the remakes and re-releases of old titles, we're probably going to find ourselves in a much more balanced market in the next few years.

Depends where you look. Enter into teh fanbase of many MMOs and the reflective adaptations from it. As they have lasted longer, more casual players have joined, more casual policies are followed, and a cycle ensues. For console gaming, possibly, but I would argue a majority of investment will still be toward new players or into very easy games...then again, I have yet to find a game I consider difficult...but I think I was playing before I hit any form of pre-school so I can't really count on that argument.

MMOs are and always will be totally different (until I finish mine :P). I'm currently an incredibly casual MMO player because I know what computer addiction looks like and was able to avoid all the hooks. MMOs cater to the lowest common denominator and leave things like builds up to the players to figure out. That's not really what I was talking about. Long-term addiction will never equate with drawing in buyers for a finite single-player game.

I was speaking more in terms of games maturing in ways and looking back in others. Mega Man 9 and 10 went whole hog and styled themselves totally retro as retro-style games started to permeate the market, so it's an intentional step back. Other games are trying to take games in a new direction as a storytelling medium, like Alan Wake, from what I hear.

Terrible voice acting, bad jokes and unoriginal concepts?

That's only half true Blues. It's just that they are realizing now that they are marketing to multiple demographs and groups so they make games to fill them. Not everyone enjoys 2D Megaman. Sure you love it, I love it. but my friends younger brother and his friends(18-19) Hate the game. They dislike it because it looks like garbage to them. So yeah, companies are just realizing, thanks to Indie games, that a lot of people enjoy those games so they are releasing them, but at the same time a much greater chunk enjoy the games ike CoD, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, God of War. So, they aren;t going away from pretty graphics, they're just marketing a set game to a specific demograph. You're reading into MegaMan 9 and 10 way to much Blues.

Depends on the game. I've known TES series games really draw people in...badly. I would agree that MMOs market the lowest common denominator but I would say that it can permeate elsewhere. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the wall to fall nor would I walk freely thinking it won't. It can happen and might.

Good point, retro-games do offer a competent genre (and avoid the sort of thing this thread is about) but, they may simply end up on the road of simply being "bastardized versions of old games". Everything is a tightrope.
As for story-telling mediums, that again, is a tightrope. Do you want to go the full mile as MGS4 was critised for doing? Do you want to immerse it into the playing of the game? To you want to throw in quicktime events as were experienced by anyone who took up Resi4? A fair amount of "new mediums" just aren't really that good.
You can tell a great story with a great game, it's just a damn miracle when you do. Thus, cheap tricks like sex scenes occur.

Edit:
Yes, if you were satirising the video (as I presume you were (and agree)), you've ironically hit what I dislike about a lot of new games.

Oh, heck no. By no means is retro going to rule the market. But a lot of retro genres are coming back. Microsoft's XNA has specific functionality to help create 2D platformers, for instance. We're going to see a lot of them from indie developers just by that merit. Even Little Big Planet uses that genre as a base.

What I'm saying is that we left those kinds of games in the dust as soon as 3D hit. All the older game styles were relegated to low-power handheld systems, which are now getting powerful enough to move past them. So while handhelds are moving into more modern genres, those older genres are simply spreading out to other systems. But in doing so, they're also seeing some validation again.




But back on the topic of sex: sex sells. Always. It's used in commercials, movies, and everything else. Maybe not the act of intercourse, but definitely the desire for it.

I'd say that I think games in general are starting to treat it a bit more maturely, though. You do have things like Bayonetta, but even then, it's almost classy in a way because of how comfortable she is with herself. And it's incredibly forthright about what it is, which is utter camp. Bayonetta is a strong character who actually walks around entirely covered when she's not casting finishers and toys with people coquettishly. The rampant sexualization is tacky, but as a character, she's really not.

I'd argue other examples of sex, but other than Mass Effect, my knowledge of current Western games is somewhat limited. I won't argue more about Japan because they have a totally different culture about it (sex is okay, violence is not) and that's reflected in their games.

Sir I have no idea where you got that impression whatsoever, to even suggest that I would mock such a quality and highly entertaining video is unthinkable.

Fair point. But it's rather like holding onto your music from the 80s (Or whatever decade you may have been raised in). Sure, your peers will get it, maybe even your elders but those younger won't care, 99% of the time anyway.
Retro-games survive as long as the retro-game-market lived in the retro-time.

Edit: I found it amusing, but I wouldn't call it a youtube Van Gogh.

Retro isn't really what I was talking about so much as looking back to it in terms of gameplay. Retro style only appeals to people my age and a bit older who lived through it, yes. But 2D gameplay isn't as limited. It's easier to do in many ways and that means it's easier to make fun.

Gaming's doing fine. It's certainly doing better than the movie market, or at least that's my opinion on it. If you think there's something wrong with modern gaming you're just playing the wrong games.

Ahh, ok. I hold my point about the way I interpreted it but on your intention, looking back, it was good because as you said:
Edit: By the same token, we could say you're watching the wrong movies. In any medium, most of what's produced isn't that good if we're honest, and good things are few and far between. I think since it's a gaming thread, that rant has just been the one brought forth.

Or to summerize: The people who don't like modern games, don't own a DS.

I own a DS but, I dislike a large proportion of games. :raise:

90% of everything is crap, that's a given.

Still, the DS gets more great games than other consoles.

Interestingly enough, yes, it is on Earth, as a question of matter, in all probability.
Yet it also gets the worst.

Honestly that's because it's cheapest to make a DS so you're just plain going to get more games total for the DS than other consoles. Still, I got to play Dragon Quest IV and V on my DS, Rhapsody, Strange Journey, Disgaea, Mario, Pokemon, a Megaman game that was pretty okay, a great Castlevania game, Contact, Contra 4, Trace Memory, Ace Attorney, and probably about a billion other games I've forgotten.

Indeed it is, and of course you will. Those are good games. I doubt you have ~1billion, your income would have to be huge...and badly spent. ^_^

Edit: Still! Sex scenes in games, bad, good, depends?

So how many games are there with sex scenes?

There's the GTA games, I guess, if you count hookers and I think a few hidden ones with girls you date if you count fade to black and noises, I think? But GTA isn't worth discussing if we're gonna be all "Rawr moral outrage maturity rawr rawr blar".

Then there's... Dragon Age wherein to get to the sex scenes with everyone that wasn't a bisexual elf manslut, you had to actually get to know the characters and learned more about their characterization and what they were like than you could ever learn by not romancing them. Maybe the romances weren't perfectly written, or anything, but I can't honestly say that it was handled immaturely.

And then the two Mass Effect games, where, again, I can't really say it was handled immaturely, though the writing for them wasn't nearly as good as in Dragon Age. I guess I've seen Jack mentioned, but what isn't mentioned is that by doing anything with her early like that, you destroy the chance of developing a real relationship with her, or that the later scene you can get if you do is much softer and takes on an entirely different characteristic.

So, I guess if you're just bitching out of prudishness you might have a point, but unless I'm seriously missing some games here... I'm not seeing any kind of real point from a quality standpoint.

Though I haven't played this espionage game from the OP, so I don't know if you actually build a relationship with that woman before she ties you down and rapes you or what the hell. So there's that, I guess.

One game. Maybe.

We could always go morally ranting about Fable 1, considering it had a whorehouse.
But...meh.

Oh yeah, I forgot the two Fable games. Which handled it all pretty shallowly. Though I guess you could get married and have kids so maybe that evens it out? Then again you could have multiple wives who didn't know about each other in both, and could sacrifice your family to the forces of evil in the second, so there's that.

We're up to three, I guess.

Throw in the GoW games, though I'd honestly stick them in with GTA on the whole not even worth discussing in so far as moral outrage goes, 'cause there's much better things to complain about in so far as maturity and what not goes in them (LOOK MA, CENTAUR GIBLETS!)

But what the hell, I'll give them to you.

And there's always God of War. It did have a minigame where you hit buttons to... ahem ... please a lady.

Edit: and ninja'd.

It got you one of the best weapons in the game, however.

I want you to go ahead and compare the ratio of games that have pointless, crammed in sex scenes to the ratio of movies that have pointless, crammed in sex scenes and call me in the morning.

Not really. Maelstrom was pretty much shit because all the story enemies you had to fight were evil aligned.

Edit: LOOKED awesome, though.

If you were being evil, you were often killing good. In context of playstyle, it was damned powerful.

Except killing good got you nothing of value. The only actual good characters that you'd ever end up fighting were civilians and guards. There were very very few quests--even evil ones--that resulted in killing guards instead of more evil characters (hobs, balverines, bandits, undead, all the spire enemies...).

So the only thing it was really good for was going on a slaughter fest through cities, , which just left you disadvantaged as you couldn't go back to town for hours or days or whatever without killing everyone

Rising Sun was almost always more useful.

I mostly just used Maelstrom as decoration on my evil gunslinging character that never pulled out the sword, anyway.

Edit: They should have just made it do extra damage to humans or something like that. That would have been useful.

Indeed, although I don't wish to enter another derailment, I did find Fable 1 more fun than 2, whilst it's on my mind.

Didn't get a chance to reply to this before the thread exploded -

I meant that my calling that specific scene 'pornography' (which I feel it basically is, along with similar instances in other games like GTA, or God of War) was not a statement of moral judgement, since everyone here pretty much knows what I think about pornography anyway and that isn't what the thread is about. It was more about the quality of the writing in these games when handling this kind of subject matter. They don't seem to serve any paticular plot point, seems like they are there only to titilate. It's inclusion in the story becomes secondary to exciting the player/viewer in an almost exclusivly sexual way, i.e. pornography.

So, if you're playing 'Bubble Bath Babes' or 'DOA: Beach Volleyball', scenes like that aren't out of place - You are playing the video game equivilant of a porno. If you're playing a plot-heavy game that at least makes attempts at higher concepts, and it suddenly switches gears and becomes about bangin' the hot chick, it's just bad writing.

lol?

God of War had a plot, it was the reason Kratos was yelling Zeus!!!!!! I just don't remember why he was yelling it.

And if 'bangin' the hot chick', as you so eloquently put it, comes only at the end of a slowly built relationship spanning the majority of the game, and allows you insights into the 'hot chick's personality and character that you would otherwise be unable to attain?

I don't think he was calling God of War plot heavy.
It's 'cause Zeus stabbed him with the Blade of Olympus and stripped him of his godhood.

If you're asking me if I think there is a place for a scene of love-making (better?) in a game if it is presented in a plausible if not at least semi-realistic way and which also serves to expand the story or development characters in a way that matches the pace and style of the rest of the game, then I would say yes.

However, the paticular scene in 'Alpha Protocol' seemed incredibly contrived and if there was something there the writers were trying to do it other than just 'hur hur sex', it probably could have been better accomplished in an entirely different way. Although I think that's probably far from the worst example, and it's not like video games in general are not guility of other terrible writing cliches and faux pas.

I think the game kind of pretends that there is something going on there but I mean, yeah plot-wise it's a wading pool.

Well, I was thinking more the ME series or DA, as I haven't played Alpha Protocol, but I would point out that were I to link you to say, the scene when Morrigan has sex with you, or Ashley, or Liara, or Leliana, or Thane, or whoever else, it would appear similarly contrived because it would lack all context--though admittedly not as bad as that. Well maybe Morrigan's would, as she's a bit playful about hers ('Tis cold in my tent...).

My point is that, short of having played the game, we don't actually know if that scene took place at 75% of the way through the game after continuous back and forth flirting and mutual (or even non-mutual) attraction between Michael and the Russian woman.

It's presumptuous to assume that Obsidian just threw in a bondage sex scene for no reason. And even if they did, it's even more presumptuous to use a single example to complain about the industry as a whole.

Maybe in order to be 100% sure that a sex scene had proper context or not, sure you would have to play the game (or read a wiki article on. something). But... I dunno I feel like you can just sort of tell sometimes. Maybe it was the amount of terrible one-liners or something.

I don't feel like I'm doing this. At least not in spirit, I think. I can come up with lots of other examples of bad writing in games, it's just we're talking specifically about how some games handle sexuality.

Maybe, but...

Bells sure seemed to be, and as the OP he was setting the tone for this thread.

Yeah, and I'm not sure that games handle it any worse than any other form of media. At least not in the context that has been presented (sex scenes).

There's a pretty good argument for the industry handling sexuality poorly in how female characters in games tend to dress and what not, but that's not really the topic this thread was going for.

In that scene you're rescued by a number of possible characters based on who you've supported/helped/killed throughout the game (That scene is basically the start of the end) and they'll all free you in different ways that compliment their personality/skillset.

Sei rapes you.

You know, I can't decide if video games actually fit the oft used excuse used by apologists that 'they are a media form in it's infancy' and mature subject matter will eventually be handled at the same level we think we see in film and literature, or if that is totally bogus. I'm not seeing a lot of middle ground there.

Here there are a lot of variables - does cheesecake being the entire point of the game excuse the DOA series? Maybe, I guess? I mean, for the record I really like DOA 2. But uh, what about the issues with the new girl in the Resident Evil series. Her alternate costume? Yeah. Not 100% sure about that.

uh, they don't do it any differently then most films do though. A lot of films handle mature content with the same vein as GTA does.

Well in so far as the subject of this thread goes, I'm not sure that video games actually handle it at a lower level than we see in film and literature already--infancy or not.

If anything, it seems to do a slightly better job. I've yet to have my video game action hero fuck his damsel in distress with alien corpses a few feet away, but I've seen suggestive fade to blacks in just that situation in all kinds of movies.



Maybe if this were an exception to how women were portrayed in video games as opposed to a rule.

However, it's hard to justify DOA as just going all out Cheesecake when female side kicks (and heroines) in many contemporary games don't dress much more modestly.

Wrong on more levels than one.

And yet so right.

Yeah thats part of why I have a hard time buying that, I mean, video games aren't really even a new media they're just combinations of exsiting media technology.


Give me one example.

No no, not cause I don't belive you! I just need to know becuase that is (very darkly) hilarious.

Totally relevant.

http://www.cad-comic.com/comics/sillies/20100206.gif

worst one I've seen is in water world. bad guys got the kid, leaving them stranded, and they decide to have sex. Oh and by the way, the ships also slowly sinking. Out of place is one thing, but thats down right counterproductive

There's a good one.

I wanna say there was something similar in one of the Conan movies, but I don't really have them on hand, and trying to find the endings to Conan movies on youtube is like pulling teeth (Conan the Detective, however, is quite easy to find--also the video games). And maybe that one where the dude could talk to animals?

But it's pretty common in lots of popcorn action flicks. There was one I can't remember the name of with a giant squid thing killing people that I think had something similar as well. Though corpses were out of sight.

Oh, or how about the sex scene in The Chase, where she climbs onto him while he is, literally, in the middle of a high speed chase with the police? There's a good 'un. S'rsly.

Edit: She's also his hostage.

On the subject of sex scenes in video games, I thought that the one in MGS3 was well/tastefully done and made sense within the context of the game.

Please don't let this derail the thread: Spoony's done his thing already.
 

At least there's some psychological precident for being a hostage turning into feelings of closeness with the captor. On the other hand, in a high speed car chase, closing your eyes, and having a persistant, shifting weight that often blocks your view and moves your body even while knocking your arms off of the wheel... yeah, that's more than slightly stupid. I mean, beyond the whole "hey, let's drive at high speeds while being totally distracted!" stupid that any kind of sexual activity behind the wheel is.

Or how about (extremely short, yet) highly explicit scenes*?

Highlander 2. Synopsis? Eco-terrorist woman kidnaps the weak old man who saved the world by killing the sky. She then sees some strange freaks assault and kill him, only: oho, he's not dead! Further, he beheads them and explodes (twice). Thereafter she immediately decides to have sex, up against a wall, in the alleyway, with no protection, with said frail old man who now appears all young and virile. Because that's how people think. Seriously: two freakish, headless corpses, a burning gasoline truck, a fail old man turned younger man, and a dirty alleyway totally justify deciding to get it on right then.

Comparison (two examples that haven't been mentioned multiple times**):
- NWN <Hordes of the Underdark>: through conversation, you eventually learn that your characters are (possibly) having sex, through their conversations, while nothing is shown. This only occurs after three chapters (for two of them, anyway) of social interaction. (Admission: The OC has a whorehouse in chapter one, but then again, it does pretty much everything poorly.)

- NWN2: in the OC, after a long campaign filled with conversation, there's a moment when, if you've built up a relationship, you are pulled aside, and given the option to physically consumate it, at the end of the game, with nothing shown.

Were either of these perfect? No.
Mature? More than "I'm Connor MacLoud of the Clan MacLoud, and I'm-" "Oh, yes do me, yes, oh, please, uh, here in the alley, oh, on the wall, yeah, that's right, oh, that was good, kthnxbai!" Also more mature than Charlie Sheen's performance given above. Also more maturely than most porno.

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I've got a perfect example of sex handled maturely in games: Harvest Moon.

*If I recall correctly, this one (unlike the first) is done without nudity! See? Classy!
**Ironically, these are still both by bioware. Huh.

Sex in games ?

It was already happening in the NES era.
Remember Golgo 13: Top Secret Episode ???

Custer will have you know it was happening way before that.

Porn on the Atari 2600, oh yeah.

Cmon, Nique, these are the types of things you read immediately after you post and then scramble for the delete button.

Under your definition, movies aren't new media, they're just old-fashioned photographs displayed one right after another, animation is just the same thing but with paintings, comics are just written words and sequential art, and novels are just ripoffs of written words from poetry/epics, which themselves are just recorded versions of things we've been saying (not to mention thinking).

And how can you not see the middle ground? Do you think humanity painted caves for centuries until one guy stumbled onto Guernica (or whatever you think is the apex of painting)? The Godfather (or Citizen Kane, or Fight Club, or what have you) didn't just pop out of no where after Ott's Sneeze? All great pieces of art comes from the continual refinement of what makes their respective media great. Video games might be a long way off, but you can find the same anti-worth sentiment applied to every media and genre throughout history.

Of course when videogames do reach the point where they can reliably produce great works, that doesn't magically mean that all dreck stops. It's still a commercially driven format, whatever sells will continue to get made. This isn't anything new in any medium where selling something is usually the primary goal, it'll just mean that we have to stop pretending that the dreck is actually worthwhile for anything other than entertainment.

What the apologists get wrong with videogames nowadays, however, is the fact that they don't have any truly great works to show off yet, just the knowledge that the medium has the potential (like all media has). This leads them to treat almost everything videogames have to offer (which is mostly dreck) like art, and for reasonably smart people like Tycho to stay stupid things like "A team of artists working on something must be art" just because someone (understandably) happens to find videogames lacking.

This kind of trash is in video games now as much as its in movies and TV, and its not a coincidence that a lot of the major best-selling titles include it. Consumers are impulsive morons and sex sells. It contributes nothing to the game itself but everything to its sales, so its probably not going to change soon.

Yeah, I forgot about that part in Halo 3 where Master Chief and Cortana had sex. Or in Modern Warfare where you had sex with your drill sergeant. Or the sex scene in Final Fantasy XIII.