The Warring States of NPF

The Warring States of NPF (http://www.nuklearforums.com/index.php)
-   Dead threads (http://www.nuklearforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=91)
-   -   What is courage? (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=12240)

spazzhands 11-10-2005 05:51 PM

What is courage?
 
I am doing an essay of Aristotle's "Nicomachaen Ethics" and I need to make some points on the idea of "courage".

Is it based on our intentions before we act?

Is it based on how we act?

or is it based on the results we get?

And does anyone know any philosophers that talk about this subject in detail? (not necessarily in person)

Nique 11-10-2005 09:09 PM

Hm. Interesting topic.

I would say that courage, essentially, is willingness to act (or not act). Intention doesn't have much to do with it, unless the intention is to take the path of least resistance.

Thought 11-10-2005 10:49 PM

First, Greek didn't have the letter "c" so why do all the Greek names get spelled with a latin c? Second, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) I haven't read this particular work. I don't suppose you know the greek word Aristotle used for "courage"? If it is άρετη (essentially arete, once it has been anglimangled) then that is a slightly different topic. That word essentially means virtue, but not quite. The "άρετη" of a horse is to run swiftly, for example, while the "άρετη" of a man is to act bravely.

... What? It's all Greek to me.

Anywho, as for bravery itself, I would have to take the opposite of Nique; that bravery is the action regardless of the willingness. One may be willing to rush into a burning building to save someone, but that isn't bravery. Rather, the one who actually rushes in to save the person is brave.

In war, I have heard it said that bravery is training engrained. That is, one's training is so reflexive that when it is needed one doesn't even think about it.

Just ό καλός,

λόγός

p.s. And on the topic of the Greeks, if I may stray from the conversation a moment, allow me to offer my favorite quote from Fighter-stophanies: εγω φιλέω τα ξιφα

Skyshot 11-10-2005 11:21 PM

Let's see what Mr. Online Dictionary has to say.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Online Dictionary
The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.

Me? I generally regard courage as the ability to go against your fears for a greater purpose. That sounds philosophical enough to remark on in a discussion with intelligentsia. Basically, if you're not afraid of something you know to be dangerous, it's because A) You're an idiot (or possibly just ignorant of the full threat it poses), or B) It's not dangerous to you. In other words, facing danger without fear is the result of stupidity, ingnorance, or sufficient competence. Bravery is facing danger you fear. All of that is a bit of a simplification, but it makes the point I'm trying to make.

PraetorZorak 11-11-2005 12:38 AM

Thought: Good to see Duo back in action.


Courage? I say it's your ability to act promptly and productively in an unexpected adverse circumstance, without being paralyzed by indecision.

Bob The Mercenary 11-11-2005 12:31 PM

I always thought it had something to do with a goddess named Farore and a gold triangle of some sort.

>_>

I think everyone's pretty much nailed it on the head. It's one of those abstract ideas that you can't really put a solid definition on.

spazzhands 11-11-2005 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thought
First, Greek didn't have the letter "c" so why do all the Greek names get spelled with a latin c? Second, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) I haven't read this particular work. I don't suppose you know the greek word Aristotle used for "courage"? If it is άρετη (essentially arete, once it has been anglimangled) then that is a slightly different topic. That word essentially means virtue, but not quite. The "άρετη" of a horse is to run swiftly, for example, while the "άρετη" of a man is to act bravely.

... What? It's all Greek to me.

Anywho, as for bravery itself, I would have to take the opposite of Nique; that bravery is the action regardless of the willingness. One may be willing to rush into a burning building to save someone, but that isn't bravery. Rather, the one who actually rushes in to save the person is brave.

In war, I have heard it said that bravery is training engrained. That is, one's training is so reflexive that when it is needed one doesn't even think about it.

Just ό καλός,

λόγός

p.s. And on the topic of the Greeks, if I may stray from the conversation a moment, allow me to offer my favorite quote from Fighter-stophanies: εγω φιλέω τα ξιφα


My latin teacher told me several years ago that they actually had most of the letters we have today, but none of the letters like U or C remain in a permanent form because they were carved in stone (and the only popular alternatives were expensive parchment or wax-tablets, and they would have rotted away by now) and they just used different letters because carving curved letters with a hammer and chisel is so difficult.

Don't take my word for it though.

also, how do you think a person is judged by others to be brave?

Thought 11-11-2005 02:48 PM

Quote:

My latin teacher told me several years ago that they actually had most of the letters we have today, but none of the letters like U or C remain in a permanent form because they were carved in stone (and the only popular alternatives were expensive parchment or wax-tablets, and they would have rotted away by now) and they just used different letters because carving curved letters with a hammer and chisel is so difficult.
Sidenote: The term "Jesus H. Christ" seems to be a misconception of the first 3 lets of his name in Greek, (IHC), when combined with the oddity of sigma (Note, sigma had around 4 forms, one of which looked exactly like a C). Thus, if those letters are taken as initials... IHCYS H. KPICTO (to anglimangle again). Sigma, in the ending position, always took an "S" form (though it had a decent), and other times took a sort of "o" with a tail look, or the usual capital to which we are familiar.

As for your question, does a person need to be judged by others to be called brave? If a person believes that he or she will receive praise for their action, then might not that motivate a person to perform a brave action for reasons other than bravery? I would argue that the bravest actions are those that go unnoticed and therefore require the most courage.

But a new question to add, if I might: Is there a fundamental difference between courage and bravery? If not, then why does English have two words that seemingly mean the same thing?


Edit: Planeswalker had a good point in that a discussion of Greek, though (to me) more interesting than a discussion on courage, is an unnecessary digression. Thus I removed that information and sent it via pm instead. Sorry for the sidetrack. However, suffice it to say, spazzhands' Latin teacher's claims are dubious.

bolevar321 11-11-2005 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thought
First, does your Latin teacher also know Greek? Second, if so, what time period? Third, papyrus survives and is consistent with the standard interpretations of the language, as is the pottery. Fourth, what about Upsilon? Fifth, Greek has 24 letters with 3~6 that are dropped in translation, and about 4 obsolete letters beyond those, thus still coming up significantly short of "letters we have today." Sixth, the argument of carved letters is inconsistent with the stone working abilities of the Greeks.

I don't suppose your teacher referenced a verifiable source?

Sidenote: The term "Jesus H. Christ" seems to be a misconception of the first 3 lets of his name in Greek, (IHC), when combined with the oddity of sigma (Note, sigma had around 4 forms, one of which looked exactly like a C). Thus, if those letters are taken as initials... IHCYS H. KPICTO (to anglimangle again). Sigma, in the ending position, always took an "S" form (though it had a decent), and other times took a sort of "o" with a tail look, or the usual capital to which we are familiar.

As for your question, does a person need to be judged by others to be called brave? If a person believes that he or she will receive praise for their action, then might not that motivate a person to perform a brave action for reasons other than bravery? I would argue that the bravest actions are those that go unnoticed.

first, relax, please. The letters of the greek alphabet are moot on a topic about bravery. It doesn't matter. Second, I would say the bravest actions are taken without care of who notices, whether it is noticed or not.

Lockeownzj00 11-12-2005 12:02 AM

Two things:

First, I think the first few posts are kind of confusing things a bit: that is, two separate, but important facets of one issue.

Willingness, as Thought said, isn't necessarily courage. I think he's right in that respect. But I think we're restricting ourselves to this one 'is it x or is it not' mindset too much. What willingness does have to do with is empathy--oftentimes one can want to be courageous but isn't. This doesn't make them a bad person, and in fact, this sort of situation is startlingly common. I think this issue is related because each person is judging the entire issue based on only one thought from one camp.

So, what I'm saying is--yes, courage is actions. But understanding courage is also important. Someone is always being courageous and the others are always understanding (mathematically speaking) that courage.

Intention is a tricky thing. It's okay to be hypocritical about (arguing about) intention--because in the end, it's not really being hypocritical. In some situations, I think you can argue that 'intentions are pointless if you end up smacking me in the face.' On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of situations where lack of empathy or lack of understanding of motives of actions either way is the cause of the problem.

I agree, though, that probably most of the most courageous actions go unnoticed. Kind of like (even though I think it slightly missed the point and is a little too morally objectivist for my tastes) The Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3, eh? Man, they loved beating that horse in the ending. Still, those loaded but effective words were there: courage, sacrifice, patriot...


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.