The Warring States of NPF

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Theikos 02-08-2006 10:06 PM

Hadoken thought...
 
Everyone has always assumed (by "everyone" and "always" I mean in the threads that I have read) that Hadoken is evil. There are three reasonable arguments in favor of this. 1. It turns love into destructiveness 2. Black Mage uses it 3. He sacrificed orphans for it.
But suppose, just suppose for a moment, that Hadoken and perhaps BM are actually good. It's that sort of deep down good that you don't see. I have further explanation on black mage being good, but for now I'll stick to the topic at hand.
I have looked at a few instances of BM using Hadoken and how they might be construed as good.
First, there is the giant's forest. Though he did it, apparently, out of self-preservation, he did in fact destroy a giant that would otherwise likely kill other, less nexus-y, adventurers. Furthermore, he destroyed a forest that was easy to get lost in.
Next, we have the time that he atempted to destroy, I think, Mt. Gorgu. Not only did he manage to miss a freaking mountain, but he ended up wiping out the dinosaurs on another planet paving way for all human life on said planet.
Then there was the time he managed to save the plummeting airship by means of Hadoken. Other than some slight destruction on where they were heading, which would likely have occured anyways considering the deathtrapy nature of the ship, I see nothing at all evil about that use.
In episode 544 he wastes his Hadoken, thereby subconciously preventing himself from using it for more destructive purposes. I am currently in the development stage of a theory regarding onion kid's connection to BM.
Finally, we have the latest use of hadoken. BM once again managed to miss a shot that should have been impossible to miss and unlocked Red Mage's power.

The Truth Is In Here 02-08-2006 11:02 PM

So BM is like Fighter
:bmage: : Good but too evil to know it.
:fighter: : Smart but too dumb to know it.

CelebrenIthil 02-08-2006 11:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Theikos
First, there is the giant's forest. Though he did it, apparently, out of self-preservation, he did in fact destroy a giant that would otherwise likely kill other, less nexus-y, adventurers. Furthermore, he destroyed a forest that was easy to get lost in.

The tree-hugging hippie French Canadian in me is yelling her vocal cords out that "easy to get lost in" is a characteristic of all the forests who deserve that name and should never EVER be a good reason to utterly vaporise it. XD

Otherwise, yes, BM accidentaly made good with evil, thus showing he acts good but he's too evil to notice. And, an attack powered by love cannot cause only destruction; I say it causes destruction with good side-effects. ;)

Mondt 02-08-2006 11:11 PM

He also kept Fighter because he is a meatshield. If he keeps Fighter, his evil-doings are easier.

The Wizard Who Did It 02-08-2006 11:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Theikos
1. It turns love into destructiveness

Love is bad... wait...
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2. Black Mage uses it.
Right, that's a good thing...
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He sacrificed orphans for it
So is that...

4. He got it from a fricken' demon lord!
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But suppose, just suppose for a moment, that Hadoken and perhaps BM are actually good. It's that sort of deep down good that you don't see. I have further explanation on black mage being good, but for now I'll stick to the topic at hand.
Okay, I have a psychological reason for why he acts bad, and he has shown that he has a good side, but you can not classify him as good.

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First, there is the giant's forest. Though he did it, apparently, out of self-preservation, he did in fact destroy a giant that would otherwise likely kill other, less nexus-y, adventurers. Furthermore, he destroyed a forest that was easy to get lost in.
And all the squirrels and other helpless creatures in it. And, remember, being evil and such is about motivation as well as the end results. Self preservation isn't precisely good, and neither is destroying a forest, as it's a habitat of creatures.
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Next, we have the time that he atempted to destroy, I think, Mt. Gorgu. Not only did he manage to miss a freaking mountain, but he ended up wiping out the dinosaurs on another planet paving way for all human life on said planet.
He did it to kill his fellow LWs... that's not good...
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Then there was the time he managed to save the plummeting airship by means of Hadoken. Other than some slight destruction on where they were heading, which would likely have occured anyways considering the deathtrapy nature of the ship, I see nothing at all evil about that use.
Great, one of his good moments. Good job.
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In episode 544 he wastes his Hadoken, thereby subconciously preventing himself from using it for more destructive purposes. I am currently in the development stage of a theory regarding onion kid's connection to BM.
Yeah, no. He practically caused dying orphans to starve. That is not good.
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Finally, we have the latest use of hadoken. BM once again managed to miss a shot that should have been impossible to miss and unlocked Red Mage's power.
Not for lack of trying.

See, you're trying to paint a pretty picture over most of this, but really, most of these were done for selfish or bad purposes, or had very negative results. You're grasping at straws with all but number 3.

Theikos 02-08-2006 11:31 PM

Those first three things were arguments saying that Hadoken is bad. And if you were a demon lord secretly controling BM, you would want him to have a very destructive spell to use for you, and, being a demon lord, you could not understand the concept of love, and would hence have no worries about your intended minion having it.
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Okay, I have a psychological reason for why he acts bad, and he has shown that he has a good side, but you can not classify him as good.
Why not?
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And all the squirrels and other helpless creatures in it. And, remember, being evil and such is about motivation as well as the end results. Self preservation isn't precisely good, and neither is destroying a forest, as it's a habitat of creatures.
1. In an evil forest, all creatures are evil and dangerous. 2. (more importantly) I'm saying that while conciously, for whatever reason, he is trying to be evil, subconciously he is good and is intentionally making such "mistakes"
If he is, as seems to be so strongly implied, a nexus of power, how else do you explain his apparent incompetence? I will, however, concede that with the incident in 544 I was really just trying to come up with an explanation for such a heinous act. Even so, there is no actual proof that he caused that or that the barge was really as good as it would seem. Heck, perhaps he somehow prevented an even greater disaster by firing that hadoken.

The Wizard Who Did It 02-08-2006 11:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Theikos
Those first three things were arguments saying that Hadoken is bad.

I know. And they are rather valid.
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Why not?
Good would mean, under my philosophy, that his intentions were to help and make life better for others. Or at least, to be a lot less selfish and mean than he is now.
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1. In an evil forest, all creatures are evil and dangerous.
The nice jelly fish things are now crying because of you. Apologize!
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2. (more importantly) I'm saying that while conciously, for whatever reason, he is trying to be evil, subconciously he is good and is intentionally making such "mistakes"
Try to prove that. Please. And don't pull up instances where he is nice, there are more than enough times where he shows that he is actually very cruel. Or psychologically traumatized, but his ending actions are almost all ill to one party or another, mostly those who don't deserve it.
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If he is, as seems to be so strongly implied, a nexus of power, how else do you explain his apparent incompetence?
The world exists to hurt BM.

And the nexus has only just been unlocked. But mostly number one.

Theikos 02-08-2006 11:54 PM

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Good would mean, under my philosophy, that his intentions were to help and make life better for others. Or at least, to be a lot less selfish and mean than he is now.
That has no real bearing on weather or not I can classify him as good.
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The nice jelly fish things are now crying because of you. Apologize!
Sorry nice jelly fish things. Wait What are these things?
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Try to prove that. Please.
If we had to prove all of our theories, we would get nowhere. Or at least nowhere fun.
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The world exists to hurt BM.

And the nexus has only just been unlocked. But mostly number one.
First, having friends of any sort arguably helps him, while a giant with the intention of crushing him would tend to hurt him.
Second, if the nexus was not at all active prior to the recent comic, how is he such a good mage?

The Wizard Who Did It 02-09-2006 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theikos
That has no real bearing on weather or not I can classify him as good.

Personal evaluations. For the sake of understanding where you are coming from, what;s yours?
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Sorry nice jelly fish things. Wait What are these things?
Read Order of the Stick. Good comic.
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If we had to prove all of our theories, we would get nowhere. Or at least nowhere fun.
True, but you're statement is kind of from left field. BM has good points, and he isn't completely evil, but trying to argue that he's actually good (depneding on your definition) is taking it one step too far. Generally, one gives evidense as to their beliefs in general so that they may convince the other, or at least have the other respect their view point.
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First, having friends of any sort arguably helps him, while a giant with the intention of crushing him would tend to hurt him.
This seems very non sequitor. How does this effect that the world continuously screws over BM?
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Second, if the nexus was not at all active prior to the recent comic, how is he such a good mage?
It doesn't stop him from being powerful, but he didn't have the full potention of these 'lay points' things until recently. He still is very powerful, relating to his destiny. That is why this is a somewhat weaker point.

Also because now that the 'nexus is unlocked', the world is still screwing him over.

Theikos 02-09-2006 12:14 AM

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Personal evaluations. For the sake of understanding where you are coming from, what;s yours?
I hope and pray that it turns out that he is actually good.
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True, but you're statement is kind of from left field. BM has good points, and he isn't completely evil, but trying to argue that he's actually good (depneding on your definition) is taking it one step too far. Generally, one gives evidense as to their beliefs in general so that they may convince the other, or at least have the other respect their view point.
As I said in the first post, I'll do more in deapth on that another time. This thread is simply dealing with the idea that hadoken isn't entirely evil.
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This seems very non sequitor. How does this effect that the world continuously screws over BM?
Sorry. He manages to miss his "buddies" for whatever reason, which is arguably good, just as is his hitting the giant early on in the series. If it were simply the world screwing him, the giant would have crushed him. Or worse.


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