The Warring States of NPF

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Dasanudas 02-19-2006 12:09 AM

Bring some damn cheese back this time!
 
Seems we're gonna go to the moon again.

Quote:

Although many countries are talking about sending people to the moon, only two, the United States and China, have set dates for such missions. NASA says its next astronaut flight will be as early as 2018; China says it wants to land ``taikonauts'' -- as Chinese astronauts are called -- as early as 2017.

Each country is going for its own reasons -- some commercial, some strategic, some for national pride. But if the plans come to fruition, the moon could become a busy extraterrestrial outpost for scientists, engineers and possibly ordinary citizens in the coming decades. It would also serve as a vital way station for the long-dreamed-of trip to Mars.

Leading the way is the only country that has set foot there before, the United States.

Why bother with the moon? Americans have been there. Six times. Each time, explorers have found the same barren world -- a place of ``magnificent desolation,'' in the words of Apollo astronaut Buzz Aldrin.

Visionaries such as Gregg Maryniak, director of the James S. McDonnell Planetarium in St. Louis, have little patience with those who say, ``Been there, done that'' about the moon.

``That's like saying you've seen New York when you changed planes at JFK.''
Two things on this for me - hopefully this will crush all the conspirators that keep saying the landings were a hoax as I have no belief that multiple nations could keep a secret together, and second, because I bring that up, I would ask that this not get into a conspiracy theory thread.

The reason I add this is the same for putting the last part in the quote. Is it really worth going to the moon? What are some people's thoughts and ideas on the value of such a time consuming and expensive project?

Transcend 02-19-2006 12:19 AM

Why would we do this? At this moment there is little benefit to be had. I would not surrender space to the Chinese, but would prefer to keep competitive advantage by spreading our sphere of influence slowly upwards with increased communication and weapons technology, rather than multi-billion dick-waving contests.

The reasoning seems to be, "well, it'll probably be useful someday soon." I can't see the point of landing a long-term moonbase until the minute it would be useful.

Lockeownzj00 02-19-2006 12:25 AM

There's a lot left to study out there--not just on the moon, but in space. Prolonged presence in space = more understanding of our universe. EQUALS important.

Now, I'm sure that space colonies aren't imminent, but I'll remain...optimistically neutral for now.

POS Industries 02-19-2006 01:04 AM

Moon base = further reach of telescopes and radio communication, as well as a more opportune place to launce probes = less likelihood of probes failing to respond immediately upon landing = millions of dollars not wasted on NASA = people quitting their bitching about how much money is wasted on NASA = happy space nerds.

I was a space nerd long ago, and still have a soft spot in my heart for the practice.

misterchainsaw 02-19-2006 01:40 AM

What I have heard from a teacher of mine is that there racing up to the moon to reclaim it. He says that there is rule about claiming territories(hes not exacly sure) that if a country puts a flag on a peice of land and dosent go to the land after a certain period of time then it becomes free land again and this might be what is happening with the moon race

Transcend 02-19-2006 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misterchainsaw
What I have heard from a teacher of mine is that there racing up to the moon to reclaim it. He says that there is rule about claiming territories(hes not exacly sure) that if a country puts a flag on a peice of land and dosent go to the land after a certain period of time then it becomes free land again and this might be what is happening with the moon race

Your teacher is incorrect. The 1967 United Nations Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies explicitly forbids territorial claims in space. We put the flag down to mark our arrival on the moon, but explicitly did not claim it: the plaque we laid down reads "we came in peace for all mankind." And that rule is just nonsense. I've never heard of anything like that.

However, UN treaties are largely worthless, and it's entirely possible--indeed, likely--that this is a geopolitical (suddenly an outdated term) move. We are certainly attempting to claim space as our own, as are the Chinese. But we aren't because of any silly flag-rule.

Any talk about science is misguided, I think. If we cared about science at all we'd listen to climatologists, stop talking about ID, open up stem-cell research, and actually properly fund our labs and universities. This government does not do things to advance pure science. We do things to advance our geopolitical positioning.

Solid Snake 02-19-2006 02:09 AM

Saying that we have no business going to the moon would be the equivalent of the Queen of Spain (was it Isabella at that time?) telling Christopher Colombus that she wouldn't dare waste her money on his expedition while thousands of people within her country's borders suffered in poor economic conditions.

Mind you, monarchs back then weren't really all that concerned with how the peasants were actually faring, so this would have never actually been an issue. But my point still stands. Nothing is arguably more important than the continuation of a nation's exploration and innovation. We need to continue to strive to make scientific advances and conquer previously unexplored terrain. We need to understand more about how our universe functions.

It's worth noting that the first missions to the moon, though originally justified by the arms race with the Soviet Union, actually had a far more profound affect in...medicine, of all things. As well as nutrition. And biochemistry. And geology. Turns out that when we sent these astronauts into space NASA began collecting all sorts of useful data. I don't remember offhand exactly how NASA's contributed to everyday life, but I can assure you it has. Exploring the unknown always has great risks but often wields great benefits -- because it's only by confronting the unknown that we learn previously unheard of facts about the way our minds, bodies, ecologies, etc happen to work.

We need to start realizing that, though the short-term costs of space exploration would likely be high (albiet certainly far less monetarily than, say, even a tenth of how much America spends yearly on defense), the long-term benefits in all facets of life would be enormous. There's ways we could stop fossil fuel consumption, and one way is to consider fuel sources available outside our atmosphere. I'm not just talking about minerals on other planets. We could even collect constant levels solar energy from outer space and 'beam' it, at least hypothetically speaking, back to the ground. This would be much more cost-efficent than solar power because there's no rain or cloud cover to impede constant access to sunlight.

The biggest irony in my opinion is that many who argue against continued space exploration programs advocate that the money would be better spent improving the lives of people back home. From a long-term perspective however I'd bet that everyone would proportionally benefit more from an active, well-financed and goal-oriented space program. The problem right now is, though we're not spending as much annually on NASA, the taxpayer's money we're investing is largely going to waste to sponsor ventures that aren't well-equipped, managed by enough skilled scientists, etc. Hence why we've had so many recent breakdowns and malfunctions in just about every little gadget NASA decides to send out.

So yes, we should send a man to the moon sometime -- and a man to Mars, too, as well as more rovers and more satellites. The more we learn about the universe we live in, and the more we can manipulate and exploit what's out there to our own advantages, the better off all of us are, as a species.

misterchainsaw 02-19-2006 02:18 AM

Hmm, you have a vailid point i think.. I will have to some reaserch on this "flag rule" to see if it infact dose exist and if so what it is limited to, this may seem a waste of time but im bored. Also the teacher that said this may-b a little crazy im not sure.

Lockeownzj00 02-19-2006 10:28 AM

Quote:

It's worth noting that the first missions to the moon, though originally justified by the arms race with the Soviet Union, actually had a far more profound affect in...medicine, of all things. As well as nutrition. And biochemistry. And geology. Turns out that when we sent these astronauts into space NASA began collecting all sorts of useful data.
I know and have read about this too...I'm going to look into it.

Raiden 02-19-2006 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transcend
The reasoning seems to be, "well, it'll probably be useful someday soon." I can't see the point of landing a long-term moonbase until the minute it would be useful.

The downside of that is the fact that things thrown together at the last minute tend to suck. This is a moonbase, and the amount of data we could collect would be invaluable. And by starting as soon as possible, it will give us a longer time to add on, upgrade, and such.


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