The Warring States of NPF

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Arhra 04-17-2006 02:27 AM

First of all, I will mention that yes, Kirakiri split selves are slightly weaker than his normal form. It says so right in his profile. Another downside is that when he recombines, he gets the injuries of both.

Now Garud, there are concerns about your rock spirit summon. Quiet simply, it's been acting too powerful. It apparently has been holding off Kirakiri, Ayako and Kirie with barely a scratch. I'll go chronologically.

First is one of the more minor ones. Kirie. While dealing with Kirakiri and directing a tremor at Ayako, the earth spirit apparently also has the speed to grab Kirie as she attacked it and hurl her away.

The first major concern is Ayako. She is moving in a full out run and yet the earth spirit can not only entrap her in a ten foot tall wall of stone, but can also roof it off with a boulder before she escape. Just by concentrating too apparently.

I'll make a quick mention of the implausibility of the earth spirit blocking everyone, including the two Kirakiris. All they have to do is split up and move around it - if they move apart, the earth spirit can only stop one of them.

Now, another big issue. The chasm. You mentioned it took time to open, and yet gave no time for reaction. You even mentioned that had Kirakiri done something else, he would have had a better chance to avoid. How does the ground shaking around Ayako have anything to do with a chasm opening anyway? Saria and that half of Kirakiri are quite some distance away. Just how far can that earth spirit affect?

There is also the point a large chasm opening very fast would probably make Kirakiri and Sarai (who are practically on top of one another) would probably make them both fall in.

Finally the quicksand. Too fast again.

GARUD 04-17-2006 04:00 AM

Here we go again.

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Now Garud, there are concerns about your rock spirit summon. Quiet simply, it's been acting too powerful. It apparently has been holding off Kirakiri, Ayako and Kirie with barely a scratch. I'll go chronologically.
Wait a minute... He never GAVE anyone a scratch.

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First is one of the more minor ones. Kirie. While dealing with Kirakiri and directing a tremor at Ayako, the earth spirit apparently also has the speed to grab Kirie as she attacked it and hurl her away.
Hold on. It's big, and has a large armspan. And it has two hands. Besides, at that point it was fresh, and Kirakiri did not do anything.

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The first major concern is Ayako. She is moving in a full out run and yet the earth spirit can not only entrap her in a ten foot tall wall of stone, but can also roof it off with a boulder before she escape. Just by concentrating too apparently.
A delay tactic, to which she did escape from (which started from my post). The boulder on top was placed by the Earth spirit.

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I'll make a quick mention of the implausibility of the earth spirit blocking everyone, including the two Kirakiris. All they have to do is split up and move around it - if they move apart, the earth spirit can only stop one of them.
How big do you think the pass is? It would have taken a while to get around it. It was more, meant to be a blockage for whomever was pursuing the group. Again, it was more for delay.

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Now, another big issue. The chasm. You mentioned it took time to open, and yet gave no time for reaction. You even mentioned that had Kirakiri done something else, he would have had a better chance to avoid. How does the ground shaking around Ayako have anything to do with a chasm opening anyway? Saria and that half of Kirakiri are quite some distance away. Just how far can that earth spirit affect?
Well, you didn't even notice when it happened. But, the effects may not have been visible initially, what happened underground was alot of the rock was split. And pressure was being released. The pressure release forced the two bits of the island apart. Now, Kirakiri was not actually meant to get passed, and make it reasonably equal to that point, I put a spanner in your works.
Also, the spirit cannot affect that far. Aftershocks can, but that's another story.

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There is also the point a large chasm opening very fast would probably make Kirakiri and Sarai (who are practically on top of one another) would probably make them both fall in.
The intention was to put distance that could not be walked over.

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Finally the quicksand. Too fast again.
Hold on... they all escaped, AAAAND the Spirit did not follow up. In fact, he disappeared right after.

Really, in essence, the Earth Spirit stood between the two teams and did nothing more. No harm was really done. If he had attacked, he would have left opportunity to obtain serious harm, but he didn't. That, and the fact that all 3 opponents were tired from previous fighting should establish who had the advantage.

Krylo 04-17-2006 04:12 AM

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The intention was to put distance that could not be walked over.
The intention doesn't matter if what you did was unplausible and/or godmoddy to get there.

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Hold on... they all escaped, AAAAND the Spirit did not follow up. In fact, he disappeared right after.
This time. The fact is that you're setting a precedent for your summon's power. Power should not fluxuate wildly depending upon how 'life and death' it is, but rather remain at a constant level. If it would have been called foul when used to kill PCs, it should also be called foul when used to slow or harm them.

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Well, you didn't even notice when it happened.
You never posted anything about chasms or shaking earth around Ayako until the post where the chasm opened. I went and checked. If you HAD said something about it before and Kirakiri hadn't noticed, then fine. However, you didn't and then just said he didn't notice.

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The pressure release forced the two bits of the island apart.
That doesn't change the fact that it would make footing VERY unstable due to the sudden change in inertial forces. In other words, the rock would be going one direction, while Sarai and Kirakiri would want to stay where they are. This would cause them to stumble toward the hole appearing in the ground, and, where they were stationed, they'd fall in.

UNLESS the chasm moved apart slowly, in which case, both should have had time to react to it.

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That, and the fact that all 3 opponents were tired from previous fighting should establish who had the advantage.
One PC vrs 3 should never leave the one with an advantage, unless the other three are all near dead.

Also, Ayako wasn't tired at all, and Kirakiri didn't show much in the way of fatigue. The only one seeming very tired was Kirie, but even she had just gotten a boost from a life-aspect demoness.

So their fatigue shouldn't have been nearly enough to set them all to below 1/3 ability.

As usual in these situations, I'm all for leaving things as they are for now, and just 'not doing it again later'.

Although, on a related note--due to the fact that you can always resummon your spirits, while we can't 'resummon' Raikotsu, Kirakiri, Taken, Koyuki, Kurama, Pyros, etc.--shouldn't they be SLIGHTLY less powerful than PCs. Not to any degree where it would matter in most circumstances, but just if a PC and an Elemental face off, the PC is badly BADLY beaten, but survives with enough strength to still fight off level 1 summons or yourself (just slightly better off than Koyuki is right now).

Arhra 04-17-2006 08:41 AM

Yes, I concur with Krylo. I feel a need to make certain other points as well.
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Originally Posted by GARUD
Hold on. It's big, and has a large armspan. And it has two hands. Besides, at that point it was fresh, and Kirakiri did not do anything.

Kirakiri did not do anything, as you say, because I happened to be asleep at the time. If you write a post, you should at least anticipate obvious actions of the opponent or wait until they can reply.
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Originally Posted by GARUD
A delay tactic, to which she did escape from (which started from my post). The boulder on top was placed by the Earth spirit.

So the Earth spirit was able to make walls around someone running around it at a distance at high speed, then plod over and put a (what must be stupendously huge) boulder on top, and yet still stop everyone else getting past?
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Originally Posted by GARUD
How big do you think the pass is? It would have taken a while to get around it. It was more, meant to be a blockage for whomever was pursuing the group. Again, it was more for delay.

What pass?! We're in the middle of a forest, not up in some mountains!

For the next point, Krylo already covered no previous mention being made. And you just said the spirit can't extend its power that far, so apparently it didn't happen?

Krylo also covered your final part nicely and there's not anything I can really add there.

I agree with the not doing things again. I shall make the assumption that Sarai was able to escape somehow and carry on from there.

GARUD 04-17-2006 10:08 AM

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The intention doesn't matter if what you did was unplausible and/or godmoddy to get there.
I don't quite get what you meant by that :sweatdrop

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This time. The fact is that you're setting a precedent for your summon's power. Power should not fluxuate wildly depending upon how 'life and death' it is, but rather remain at a constant level. If it would have been called foul when used to kill PCs, it should also be called foul when used to slow or harm them.
I'm not sure what you are indicating to. All things the spirit did were beaten. Basically, nothing was intended to do anything harmful. Just to keep the two teams seperated. Also, if the spirit had attacked, rather than just guard, then he would have left himself open for attack.

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You never posted anything about chasms or shaking earth around Ayako until the post where the chasm opened. I went and checked. If you HAD said something about it before and Kirakiri hadn't noticed, then fine. However, you didn't and then just said he didn't notice.
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Originally Posted by me!
A tremour appeared, and the ground beneath Ayako shook violently.

Post 87, chapter 7 good sir. And I would beleive the shaking would be felt by quite a few that were close by.

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That doesn't change the fact that it would make footing VERY unstable due to the sudden change in inertial forces. In other words, the rock would be going one direction, while Sarai and Kirakiri would want to stay where they are. This would cause them to stumble toward the hole appearing in the ground, and, where they were stationed, they'd fall in.
Umm, wouldn't Kirakiri fall and have the possibility of dying with that? So it would only make sense that he would survive. And Sarai, well, nothing said she couldn't have fallen. Even then, she is a trained monk though, so she would have good balance, and even if she did fall, be able to pull or climb out.

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Also, Ayako wasn't tired at all, and Kirakiri didn't show much in the way of fatigue. The only one seeming very tired was Kirie, but even she had just gotten a boost from a life-aspect demoness.
I thought Kirakiri destryed the Airship, and played a pivotal battle role. I assumed that even getting healed would make him tired. Assuming Ayako was tired was a mistake, but I was probably tired when I read the posts. Still, it's not always easy to inflict wounds on a PC from another PC, no matter who has the advantage. And the numbers did start to wear down the spirit. I said so myself.

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Although, on a related note--due to the fact that you can always resummon your spirits, while we can't 'resummon' Raikotsu, Kirakiri, Taken, Koyuki, Kurama, Pyros, etc.--shouldn't they be SLIGHTLY less powerful than PCs. Not to any degree where it would matter in most circumstances, but just if a PC and an Elemental face off, the PC is badly BADLY beaten, but survives with enough strength to still fight off level 1 summons or yourself (just slightly better off than Koyuki is right now).
Your forgetting that the spirits use Garud's energy. HE supports them in battle. Chances are, if you force a dismissal, there will barely be enough in Garud's energy to make a summoning. Even if he did, it would take 3 posts to summon again, and then it would still be the level of his equal.
On your point of resummoning, well first off, PC's are PC level from the start, whilst Garud has to get to that level through summoning. Also, Taken, Kirakiri, Kurama, Youji etc would not waste their energy by being in existance, but the summons depend on Garud to be out in the physical world.
Finally, I thought that summons were weaker even the PC level ones (because I have three options).

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Kirakiri did not do anything, as you say, because I happened to be asleep at the time. If you write a post, you should at least anticipate obvious actions of the opponent or wait until they can reply.
Hey, I live in a different timezone than you do. I really don't know when you get to bed, or when it is nightime when you live.

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So the Earth spirit was able to make walls around someone running around it at a distance at high speed, then plod over and put a (what must be stupendously huge) boulder on top, and yet still stop everyone else getting past?
It was 10 feet high, not wide. And can't it just, oh I dunno, reach over and put it there. She was not that far away.

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What pass?! We're in the middle of a forest, not up in some mountains!
Bad choice of words perhaps, but in the little area, there was not much space to get around. I thought it was a little area of the island, where it was not too wide.

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For the next point, Krylo already covered no previous mention being made. And you just said the spirit can't extend its power that far, so apparently it didn't happen?
Oh, of course it happened. You throw a rock into a pond. Notice how the ripples actually reach out a rather long way (in contrast to size) from the epicentre? Well, this is similar. I assumed everyone would know something like that.


Now, that that's all explained, how are we going to get the others to the boat? Only Raven and Pyros have wings. I suppose they could carry Sanjuro (if he lives), Moriko and Youji.

PhoenixFlame 04-17-2006 10:58 AM

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Originally Posted by GARUD
I don't quite get what you meant by that :sweatdrop



I'm not sure what you are indicating to. All things the spirit did were beaten. Basically, nothing was intended to do anything harmful. Just to keep the two teams seperated. Also, if the spirit had attacked, rather than just guard, then he would have left himself open for attack.

Application of Force, Garud. Allow me to explain. When making a nonlethal attack on several enemies, or even a single enemy, it is actually more difficult than making a lethal attack, for you have to hold back and make sure you don't really wound them.

Secondly, merely because an action isn't a lethal attack doesn't mean it is "okay". For example, take what you did to Ayako.

Let us assume she tried a similar technique, and encased your Rock Spirit in a block of ice. Perhaps it wouldn't harm the rock spirit, but it's rather ridiculous to suddenly and spontaneously entrap an opponent like that, isn't it? It makes it appear that your spirit is far, far stronger than it ought to be, and it'd just have been easier to drop a mountain on her head, and kill her.

Less effort, and all.

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Originally Posted by GARUD
Your forgetting that the spirits use Garud's energy. HE supports them in battle. Chances are, if you force a dismissal, there will barely be enough in Garud's energy to make a summoning. Even if he did, it would take 3 posts to summon again, and then it would still be the level of his equal.
On your point of resummoning, well first off, PC's are PC level from the start, whilst Garud has to get to that level through summoning. Also, Taken, Kirakiri, Kurama, Youji etc would not waste their energy by being in existance, but the summons depend on Garud to be out in the physical world.
Finally, I thought that summons were weaker even the PC level ones (because I have three options).

Right. Like Aeons from Final Fantasy, more or less. However, one must also realise the inherant nature of throwaway summons. For example, when the Rock Spirit was used to hold us off, he could be unsummoned. If a PC was sent to hold off an entire enemy squad, he/she would inevitably die. Summons however, are inherantly expendable.

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Originally Posted by GARUD
It was 10 feet high, not wide. And can't it just, oh I dunno, reach over and put it there. She was not that far away.

Ridiculous. Conjuring a circular rock wall from a sandy island to surround a person running at full speed? Secondly, I specifically noted that Ayako was keeping her distance, hence why she was engaging the rock demon with thrown Chakrams at quite a long range.

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Originally Posted by Phoenixflame
"Yes, it's definately a decoy. Do be careful." Ayako responded, sliding around the Rock Spirit's side at a distance, so that if it moved to intercept her, it would leave Kirakiri and Kirie open.

((In this quote, the term "Slide" is meant to mean an arcing run, much like a car in a powerslide, at a range of approximately 15-20 meters, throwing range for Ayako, along the opposite flank of the Rock Spirit in relation to Kirie and Kirakiri. Skirmishing technique.))

Unless your Rock Spirit has 30 meter long arms, he's going to find that sort of reach difficult, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by GARUD
Bad choice of words perhaps, but in the little area, there was not much space to get around. I thought it was a little area of the island, where it was not too wide.

Well, the forest/clearing/beach idea essentially means we're fighting on a more or less open field, that may or may not even have obstacles to use as cover to facilitate escape. By no means were we trying to pass the rock spirit at close range with walls on either side.

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Originally Posted by GARUD
Oh, of course it happened. You throw a rock into a pond. Notice how the ripples actually reach out a rather long way (in contrast to size) from the epicentre? Well, this is similar. I assumed everyone would know something like that.

Hmm. Perhaps, but one would also reason the ripples are far weaker on the edges, after all. Not strong enough to create earthquakes, of course.

As Krylo and Arhra, I don't care that Kurama and Co. escape, but the methods leading to this are subject to suspicion.

Dragonsbane 04-17-2006 02:57 PM

As a side note, since most of this seems to already have been covered, splitting the island itself apart is certainly a godmoddy action on its own. After all, islands are not thin sheets of rock floating on top of the ocean, but rather underwater mountains or chains of mountains rising above the surface of the island, produced by past volcanic activity. Splitting the island apart is both ridiculously powerful AND would have some catastrophic ramifications.

Furthermore, if Garud's location is unspecified, then I will assume he is hiding in a bush. A bush Raikotsu will stumble into.

Mesden 04-17-2006 05:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Dragonsbane

Furthermore, if Garud's location is unspecified, then I will assume he is hiding in a bush. A bush Raikotsu will stumble into.

Didn't he go to the boat?

PyrosNine 04-17-2006 07:14 PM

Typing all this with only my right hand!
 
I hate and love spring. It's warm, which means I am fully capable of moving, leaving my room and getting sunshine. But it's also the time everyone expects me to use my newfound mobility to clean up the messes of the world. Covered in pollen, filled with splinters, I ache. I had meant for my last post to be longer, having Katsuhiro partially waking Sanjuro, and detailing Moriko's continued walk to find pyros, which she should get to in like, 3 posts's time.

But after being dragged out to cut down some bushes and move a ginormous pile of tree limbs, I can't seem to write anymore. It'll be awhile for i can post again today...oy!

But I'm glad Rhiya's back, because It was about to look like I would be orchestrating a skirmish in on all fronts against PCs, mostly using all the people I control. It would be akin to running a marathon! I swear, Arhra's out to make it as difficult for me writing wise as humanly possible.

But just you wait! Once my back pops into place, I regain use of my left arm, and the swelling in my splintered skin goes down, I'll repost with such power it will be a thing to behold!

And I thing I used the wrong name for Pyros's attack in the post's title. I just can't remember what the attack's real name is, so I just picked the only one I could remember. It's a variant of that attack where a sort of box is cut, with the final slash making an "X" appear inside it.

Like Phoenix too, I have ideas for techniques, and wanted to use it ever since Sanjuro fought Kirakiri. But Sanjuro couldn't swordfight...

Rhiya Ravenwing 04-17-2006 07:29 PM

I couldn't leave you to the wolves, could I? That would be heartless of me, and besides that, Falcon just got.... slightly lost... yeah. >.> <.< >.>

Anyway, back in the game, and I have NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON! Summary please?


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