That's why I said it. Amazing how that works out, no?

More on my thoughts on Neyo:

No offense, but he doesn't seem to be one of the "bigger" players of Mafia. The reason he gave seems to fit how much attention he seems to pay in the games. I'm not saying he's not suspicious, because he still is, but he's less suspicious than, say, Roy at the moment, or Ogianres. But mostly Roy.

Eh. Bad attention is still attention, right?

In mafia bad attention is usually not good.. because.. you know.. ya kinda get yourself lynched. o.O

Bad attention is bad attention. Any attention in this game could be lethal, good or bad. Somewhere down the line, the good attention you received from a mafiate might be construed as a fellow mafaite "helping" a townie to later get the townie lynched/killed if said helper is found mafiate. And even then, in the good attention one recieves, one should be wary of how much of it is recieved for it too much is given to someone, then eventually, someone isn't going to like it and eliminate said person.

I'll refer you to myself and Psycho Mantis. Bad attention tuned into us being spear heads for any event, seeing as we got the town's attention in the first place and our voices were heard above all others.

It's not bad, just misunderstood. ;)

It's not about attention.

It's about not being too smart, too stupid, and never a jackass. And even then, you'll die.

I'm just sayin', everyone saying, "Look at Roy, he's a supsicious person!" when all I did was misword a post and state facts.

now you know you need to be more careful about what you post. You don't want to end up like Darthmauler in SOL: Mafia who did a miscount of the mafiates forgetting to count himself. It passed as a miscount for one day. Then we lynched him after SK prodded us with her "RED HERRING" discovery.

BTW Garud, will there be Red Herrings in death posts here?

EDIT: Its not my fault you jigalo. I did my typing faster than you. AND I typed more.

Miswording a post can be a very big clue. I will point you to SoL mafia where Darthmauler said four mafia instead of five. DarthMauler turned out to be mafia.

Edit: YA WHORE! YA NINJA'D ME! *pouts in a corner*

Well, it's not like I said, "Lookee, I'm in the mafia, oh shit, I mean I'm not." I used the word "convincing" wrong. I think I'm being suspected because I seemed to agree with Mesden.

EDIT: B_real:

That tends to happen a lot, sadly. I'm a "Dangerous" player, or so I've been told. But you don't need to be cautious to make your speech sound gold. Other claim that they be town, but they try to keep us down, so why'cha kick it with the player with the voice most sound?

(Yes, I'm insane)

Actually, I suspect you because of other reasons, which you haven't really addressed. In fact, that has made me so suspicious of you that I think I'll

Vote: Roy

As the most suspicious person to me right now, I have no reason not to, you know?

Okay, Ecurt, you said the reason to suspect me was because I was "quick to defend Neyo". Well, I wasn't really defending him. I can however, see how you would think that. I was offering an alternative explanation.

I haven't decided. Depends on my mood. Look out for red herrings but don't expect them every time.

It's not just that you were quick to defend Neyo. It was the degree that you were willing to defend him. It was possible that he could have a town role-but it is also very unreasonable. Also, as a townie you never want to reveal a town role for fear of them getting caught by the mafia or cult (since there's no SK in this game).

But, like I said, I wasn't neccesarily trying to defend Neyo. I was presenting an alternative view point.

See I've already stated how I can be convinced of someone's guilt if the evidence is good enough, and that doesn't have to be PO evidence. I also stated I won't entirely give up on anyone. I'll always be playing every angle and thinking of every possible out and I'll state the least stated case. I won't state only the least stated case though for a few reasons. The first being I won't always agree with it. The second reason is stating just one case on my part won't preserve the balance any more than holding my peace and not saying anything.

So hypothetically lets say we have a potential mafaite cornered. I'm not going to solely defend him/her just because no one else is. I'll be pointing out the flaws in both cases at the same time. I fail to see any harm coming from this. If the case is strong for the mafiate and the defense will be weak and I will be changing nothing, and chances are we have a mafiate. If the reverse is true then chances are we have a townie. If both cases are strong or both cases are weak then I simply feel there isn't reason to lynch and we should be looking for more evidence of at someone else. Hopefully as now my poking holes will engender enough conversation to bring the extra evidence to light or turn our attention to another person.

Now if you people start taking my world as gospel I'm going to stop saying so much because once again that doesn't serve the balance. Putting that much stock into anyone regardless of ability isn't smart. Its been stated at least once that even the best among us make mistakes. Further, Mesden noted that the more ability a person has the more careful you have to be about catching there mistakes.

I still fail to see how this approach is some great danger to the town. So I want to take a slightly safer round and maintain objectivity and hopefully minimize the townie lynches. Does this mean I think that we will never hit a townie by accident? No, I'm quite aware that even with all the careful objective reasoning in the world we could still mess up.

At this point Mesden's argument seems to be centered around one of a two possible perceptions of how I'm going to play. One being that I'm going to ride in like a white Knight whenever someone gets in trouble and save them. That I will not do as it isn't a very objective stance. I will point out logical flaws on both sides of the argument though because that is objective.

The other would be that I'm never going to vote for anyone. I've already stated that I will in fact vote when I'm convinced and that I can be convinced; Ie I don't need PO confirmation of guilt. Now lets hypathetically assume I don't vote for the first few nights. Is that really going to make all that much of a difference? Probably not if you have enough people convinced to get a simple majority and a lynch my one vote isn't going to do much either way. Now if things were tied up in that situation I'd weigh both cases and make a decision one way or the other and break the tie.

Ok so Mesden wants to approach this with the mind set that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. I on the other hand would rather make sure I've considered everything before making a decision. I'd think Mesden is probably going to do something very similar but isn't being as vocal about as me. That it very well might take less evidence to convince her of something than me. So at its base this is about Mesden's personality and how it shapes her opinions, ie she's out for blood and isn't quite as concerned about collateral damage as I am. Against my personality and how it shapes my opinions, ie I like to take a slow and measured approach to things.

Which suddenly reminded me of a point. We pretty much have all the time we need to decide about someone until they get close to a majority of votes and a deadline is set. I'm a patient sort and I don't care how long it takes to get enough votes to set a deadline. Mesden seems to like action and getting things done as fast as possible. That's great but its just not how a normally do things.

See Roy, even by bringing up an alternative, you indeed defended Neyo, since you were trying to say he's innocent in that alternative. There wasn't much basis for the alternative either, and it's possible you brought it up because you were trying to get Neyo killed by the mafia. There are also the points that B_Real brought up as well, but I didn't notice them at first myself.

It's like the Complicated Sentence Game. You can say the same thing in many different ways. Bringing up alternatives and defending someone just happened to be the same thing this time.

There wasn't much basis for your voting for Neyo in the first place, either.

But this is a different type of miswording. DarthMauler misworded a fact. Roy here misworded an opinion, or at least that's how I see it.

Now, Roy, I brought up something that was relatively concrete in terms of mafia evidence-Twiddy's lack of success in Mafia games-that brought into question one of Neyo's own assumptions. You brought up a possible motive, that he was a PO officer trying not to reveal himself, which not only has a one in twenty four chance out of the people remaining but would also reveal a town role to the mafia if it happened to be correct, which would have been what Neyo would have been trying to prevent in the first place if he indeed was the PO.

Yeah, okay, but I don't see where you start suspecting me as mafia.

And I don't think going on gut instinct is a great idea.

Only a mafiate or somebody against the town would want to reveal a town special role.

The vig, the BG, and the PO are the town's weapons, along with lynching.

That's where.

But really, if I wanted to reveal someone's role, do you think I'd be that obtuse about it?

That's the wonderful thing about Mafia you don't have to state anything directly.

All I'm saying is, I could think of a better way to do it.

Maybe, if you wanted to make it look like that's not what you were doing. Or if you knew that you could use that as a defense. Not that I think you deserve a vote at the moment, but that argument isn't very convincing.

Not really no. See be being that obtuse about it you plant the seed while avoiding direct suspicion. Although if you are mafia you could just tell them out of game as you are allowed to. I'd be more inclined to believe its a pair of mafiates with one trying to keep the other out of trouble. Or to make a townie seem guilty be association with a mafiate. That or you made a mistake which also happens.

Playing every angle is fine, but I don't like the quote, "I'd rather send a hundred guilty man free than jail one innocent one."

That logic CAN'T work in a game that's winning consists promarily on numbers.

Yet, there's always the possibility of a weak case against a mafiate and a strong one against the townie. I've proven for a fact that I can pull it off.

I'll get to my perspective on this soon.

I did state that, didn't I? People seem to be quoting a lot of my actions, don't they? That's because, there's no avoiding it, I'm an influential and well worded player(Arrogance go!) and people have a knack for following in my shadow. Ala, CmP who happened to be playing the mafiate that goes along with the favorite townie.

Ahem. Numbers. I'm not against looking at all sides, as I do it all the time. I'm against your quote I state above.

Yes you could, but that's not my main argument...

Says the man who misworded how he'll look at every side and take the weaker one. ;)

I get it, I get it. That's not the problem any more. Tedium...setting in...don't know if I can take much more!


And now my perspective drops in. You're a bandwagoner. You just said that with a hint of eloquence. Bandwagoning=Bad.

Yeah, since there's no way to win this game without losing townies.(Aside from astounding luck)

You're saying this like I DON'T consider things. Do you ever read anything I say?

You'd be hard pressed to be more vocal than I am.


Indecision=Bad. I'm not overly rash, but waiting so long until it's near deadline or when the stakes are high is bandwagoning and that's a bad thing, now isn't it?

Bull. I don't put my personality into this game. Do you think I'm manipulative and this cutting in real life? No, this is how I play a game, Sith.

Out for blood? You think I'm doing my best to get people killed? No, I'm playing the game and voting keeps the pressure up, so I get better answers and more to decide on. I'm being decisive enough to get the answers I need and sure, I WOULD sacrifice 2 townies for one mafia, because at that, we'd win, wouldn't we?

You took my play style and made it look completely bad and then took yours and made it seem more profound. Make me look bad with the words "Out for blood." and you look good with the words "Measured approach to things".

That plays against the human psych, those words. You're trying to be manipulative against someone whose entire career in mafia has been one of manipulation. Bad. Move.

You take your time until you can badnwagon! Marvelous! /sarcastic


Not as fast as possible. I seem to be giving you time and others to state what they want, don't I? Your words, my mouth. Not a good mix.

This approach doesn't take away my affirmation on the I'd rather send a hundred guilty man free than jail one innocent one."

Also, you've been making me look completely wrong and yourself some justified paragon of playing apptitude. You're sending my playstyle to the extreme and keeping yours in a steady light. You're trying to make me look bad. I don't appreciate that, since you've not stated any reason for me to be bad.

I have got to learn to choose my words more carefully.

It's this thing, it's called thinking. Try it out sometime. It's a miracle worker. :p

I am not sure whether I am being insulted or if Mes is always like this.

I'm going to have to agree. He really just hasn't done much. With as little as he posts and how lazy he has said that he is, whic causes him to make small, unexplained posts, he doesn't seem like much of a threat to anyone.

Mes was just giving you some crude humor. Don't take it personally.

If I took anything anyone said to me on the internet Personally I'd be angry at alot of people...
Also...HOLY CRAP 12 pages of posts already... I'm glad I kept up with alot of it as it happened and didn't need to read through it all at once!

SK's right. Again, playing for fun. ;)

How many times are people going to repeat me?

Hrmm... While I hate to take sides with Mesden I gotta admit she makes a good point. Sithdarth does seem to be trying to convince everyone that he is good and innocent (a bad approach to this game in my opinion) and that Mesden is aggresive and evil and bad (a good approach to this game in my opinion). While that may seem all noble and nice and what not that doesn't work as well in Mafia because you have to vote quickly else the mafiate's will get you. So I think I will have to go with Mesden and Vote:Sithdarth

Until you start being wrong! Be wrong, dammit!

So says you. You've yet to provide evidence for very strong logical reasoning to this. Why are you so concerned with this right out of the gate? Why not give me a chance to prove if my play style is going to help or hurt the town? Seriously as this point its almost starting to sound like you simply think the only way to play Mafia is to play like you.

So? Are we just supposed to take your word that its some horrible crime to take a step back in these situations. We may save a townie or we may save a mafaite but in the end we might find a clearer target. For instance if it was a strong case against a townie and I did somehow manage to convince people to spare them then we'd have a whole new list of people to look at. If its a weak case against a mafiate I pick apart then as I mentioned we never had much reason to have a majority vote for him/her anyway. But then again someone will still get lynched and we'll still get information. So the net result will be the same anyways.

If it causes the loss of a townie then woops but we've got the same chance of doing that without me interfering. This really shouldn't conflict with your play style as you've already stated that you aren't to very worried about killing townies. As I see it being aggressive like you like seems to have about the same chance of accidently axing a townie.

And yet you still haven't really given and indepth reason for this stance. Its really hard to refute things stated like that.

I stand by what I said and how I said it. I said I'd lend support to the weaker side not that I would exclusively lend support to the weaker side. You chose to read it that way and I have since elaborated on it an attempt to dispell that misconception.

So now taking all possible time is bandwagoning and bad. Regardless of intent that really sounds bad on your part. I fail to see how waiting till even 1 minute till the deadline hurts anyone at all or how delaying a decision is bandwagoning. Why does it matter if I vote the instant someone comes up with a half-way decent reason?

I have no idea how you could have read that like you did. I was saying I was stating more directly how I felt about seeing all sides and you weren't. I was acknowledging the fact we have a similar out look but you just seem to have a problem with the speed at which I act and how I word things.

Let me copy paste to make a point here:
So now taking all possible time is bandwagoning and bad. Regardless of intent that really sounds bad on your part. I fail to see how waiting till even 1 minute till the deadline hurts anyone at all or how delaying a decision is bandwagoning. Why does it matter if I vote the instant someone comes up with a half-way decent reason? Reasons would really help.

And that right there ties into your personality. Like it or not you can't just flick off who you are for a game. Its always going to leak through in small bits. Which is where I'm coming from here.

Sure we'd win but how can we be sure your method will guarentee us that we hit a mafaite every third lynch? Heck how can we be sure that we won't lynch someone that can help us through a role or simply playing well? It's not entirely unreasonable to think that way but its also important to have someone mmoderate that drive so that there is at least the possibility of catching a mistake. I'll be depending on all of you to catch my mistakes as well.

I've mentioned in Newb's game how manipulation is intergral to every single role of this game plain townie or not. Also, I'll direct you to pretty much every post that you've made the mentions me. They pretty much all make me look negative and thereby make you look positive. Why is this suddenly such a big deal when I turn the tables? In fact let me see if I can find some examples:

Now to move on:
Again I fail to see the reason behind this bandwagon thing you keep accusing me off. Sure I want to wait until the last minute but that isn't automatically bandwagoning. Ok so there will already be a lot of votes before I decide to vote but that's implicit in taking all the possible time. With people like you leading the charge I see no reason to lead myself. Besides if we all did that we'd only have one perspective.
Sorry about that but now we've both done it. So its a rather poor place to hang a theory as it would implicate you as well.
Again that's basically all you've been doing to me this whole time. Also, its kind of my job to protray myself in the best possible light. Part of that is you'll come off looking less than squeaky clean. As for not appreciating it well tough it hasn't exactly been making me all happy. Also this point makes you seem like "keeping the pressure on" is alright if you do it but not alright if I do it. So how exactly would you have me play if I can't play like me and I can't play like you?

Except that the mafia can only get you at night and the longer you delay night by discussing the longer you live. Now if being all "nice" makes me a target than so be it. Its not like being aggressive and mean doesn't do the exact same thing. So once again its a catch 22 I just took the road less traveled.

Oh and please for the love of god read all that it took forever to type.

Oops, I didn't see that there were already 3(12) pages up. I just read the first page. That was really fast.

But I'll have to say something to dojindog; how is it that trying to convince people that your innocent is bad? Isn't that the point of the game?

I read it all. ;) I'm not going to cut up your post, seeing as my attention is split a lot right now.

Anyhow, as far as the "100 guilty men freed than 1 innocent man jailed". That states that you would rather a mafiate live than a townie die. When you when by numbers, this sacrifice has to and will be made. We can't win if we just try to keep our numbers up more than take theirs down.

The less they have, the more time we also have. Your belief will mathematically lose for us.

As far as bandwagoning, it's been shown it nearly every game that band wagoning has done nothing but hurt the town. Whenever the town has lynched a mafia, it's almost always been unanimous. You're blatantly admitting you're going bandwagon. Last minute votes don't give any time to question the action and are always definite until the next day when it's almost over.

You may THINK you're completely sure when you state the vote, but with your vote, someone might something off about it and be able to convince otherwise, possibly for the greater good.

And yes, we should stop shoving the words and showing each other to an extremist point. But I believe you are agreeing to the bandwagoning point. I never said I want people dead soon, so I'm not out for blood. That's not even near what I'm doing, so you were just lying.

It's obvious that both our words will be taken with serious judgement from now on, as we've had a good 50 posts between us at this time if not more. So, when you do decide to vote, people will look deeply at them (Me more than anyone else, I'm sure) and if you're doing the "Bandwagoning" last second vote thing, no one can question it.

If I missed an important part, excuse me on it and just point it out for me, please. Attention is severed in several places right now.

How so? When there is no deadline, there is no rush. You do not want to vote quickly, because you likely will not have thought it through, and will rush into a decision. When there is no time limit, why spend the bare minimum time on something?

Hrm. 12 pages, huh? I guess that'll teach me to get off the internet for a couple of hours.

Gee, thanks. (/sarcasm) Ok, I'll admit, I'm not the most attentive fish in the fishbowl, and maybe I should pay a little more attention to stuff, but that doesn't mean I can't think and decipher what I see for myself. Not that I'm saying that you said I couldn't. Cause you didn't. Anyway, I have read through, and tried to absorb as much as I could, and this is what I got.

Ecurt is saying that Roy was too open in saying that I was a special role. Roy says he was just presenting another side of the case, that case being I was maybe trying to give a hint in my post as to who the mafia were. Roy then questioned the reasoning of IC's vote, then asked if SpacePope was a good player. I'm a little..how to say this... suspicious of this question. Why would you want to know how well a player asked, exactly, is beyond me. It's probably a miss understanding on my part, but until it's cleared up... eh... Also, just the way Roy is acting just rubs me the wrong way. It seems to me that all he really does is restate stuff, or post something that I would say was on the verge of being spam. I'm going to take my gut feeling a bit further and

Vote: Roy.

Note: Edited to clean up. I forgot to put in paragraphs.

And I've already given example after example about just what I meant by that and how I see it effecting the game and frankly I'm done with it. After everything I've said you always repeat like just saying it over and over is going to make it true. We know you don't agree with it a counter point would be nice and not to the intiatial statement but to everything after it. After all I can't be expected to fully explain every detail of my thought process in my first few posts on the subject.

See above. I've fully explained what I meant and how I would act. You've ignored it and went straight back to the intial statement like its a fact I can disprove. Well its not its pretty much an opinion with factual bits. True numbers do win the game but you've repeatedly ignored all attempts at me explaining myself frankly its getting old and rude. Pressure is good to a point but this is getting to be to much. There are no more answers for you here.

No see I disagreed with you very definition of bandwagoning and even given your definition waiting as long as possible isn't definetaly without exception bandwagoning.

What about after the lynch hmm? Its not like everything I said before a vote suddenly disappears after the vote. You should know that better than anyone so that gives me pause to think about your motivation.

Why does my reasoning and stuff suddenly change when I put that little bit of bold text up? Just because I don't vote doesn't mean I won't be presenting cases. Why should I vote then change me mind and unvote then perhaps vote again when I can do that all in my head without that little bold text? If I wait till the last minute guess what all view points that could be expressed will have been expressed. Now you could think I'm just not going to say anything but I already stated a few times how I'll be pointing out flaws on bothsides. I'll add to that now with I'll also be presenting my own cases I didn't think I needed to say that though. I'd be doing that regardless of those little bolded text section with vote by them.

Ok so I said out for blood, bad choice of words, but you've done similar to me and I'd wager you haven't worded everything as well as you'd like. Heck you just did it up there with the whole bandwagoning thing. It could be an honest mistake and it couldn't. Its no reason to call a person an outright liar.

Again how is it that people magically can't pick apart me reasons after the lynch? This is perhaps the largest logical fallacy I've seen you make. There is seriously no logic there.

Mafai smokescreen? I'd say the chances are good at least in part. You above all else should know that you need to take your time and devote your full attention to the game. Heck we just went over the importance of wording with Roy. Why would you suddenly do something so dangerous? This way you can just play off anything I manage to pick out as you being distracted.

Hey while we are on mafia smoke screens this whole exchange between me and you is another good one. Accusations are a great way to focuse attention on someone. Along with that is when responding to accusations it gives you lots of material to reword and play with. Above that it makes your target look defensive and thus guilty. So now I really really suspect you of something. Add to that you potentially asked that cult question to make it seem like you didn't know if the cult could act and thus deflect attention from you potentially being the cult leader.

You know what I'm going to make you happy and vote for someone. So here goes: Vote:Mesden

I'm not saying that you shouldn't put any thought into your vote. I'm just saying that once you've been swayed to one side enough don't just sit there and diddly-fart around until you are swayed to another PoV it's like a question on a multiple choice test if you don't know it and all else fails just go with your first instinct. Being nice and polite isn't the way to get things done in my opinion aggressive play is the way to go sweat it out of them.

Except it isn't a multipule choice test and putting down your vote in bold doesn't make it magically immutable. Nor does it lend any more credit to your case. Vote timing is completely and totally opinion and can indicate far to many things to be a good predictor.

Yes well as long as you are using a number 2 pencil with an eraser putting an answer down on the test doesn't make it immutable either. I'm saying if you don't have anything else to go on Vote. Your voting could possible draw suspicion onto you and the person going after you could slip-up and, Wham! You've caught yourself a mafiate! You should still be willing to change it if new evidence arises though.

I seem to have done a decent enough job of that without having to vote, until now that is. Again its not like someones evil just because they choose a different play style and it doesn't make them less effective. There is more than one way to skin a cat after all.

Even though you said I didn't say that you couldn't, it never hurts to hear it from the person yourself. You can do it, Neyo, and I have a feeling you will; heck, that single post has earned you more of my attention more than some people did in the entire SoL game.

Alright, I'll leave the point be. It is your play style and I'd be a hypocrite just to call you wrong for doing it. Most of this has been a test to see if you could be decisive enough when it matters(Like being under pressure ;)).



I don't see where there is to disagree on its definition. You're going to wait until the end and go along with the most believeable argument? That's a badnwagon vote if I could define it, Sith. You need to form your opinion before it's too late. And we'll get to why...


By then the person is, um, dead? Right? Just making sure here. Because, you know, it's a bit too late to judge your actions at that point because they're already forsaken

Again, you don't give them time to be able to evaluate you BEFORE THE PERSON DIES! For someone so keen to the slow and steady, waiting for the last second to throw their vote in, without enough time to matter to let others consider it, seems hasty to me.

But with the vote may come flaws on your part. Votes create pressure and demand response. Make you focus more as it puts more on the line. That little bolding does make a difference, whether you believe it or not.


Yeah, words are hard to put together perfectly all the time, though I still stand by my bandwagoning point.


Because when someone's life is on the line, it's better to get the points out of the way first, so they don't lose their life in vain because you didn't want to vote yet. It's not a fallacy, because there's that one major difference. That one's life. For someone who preached the similar earlier, you're sure as heck not abiding now.

Lives ARE important, even if they can be sacrificed for the good at times.



I know, I know. I'm sorry, but there are times when I feel the need to respond even when I'm busy. Forgive me or not, I like to give fast answers to give people more time to think.

Go ahead and suspect. I'm drilling you for fun, answers and to have a catalyst in the game. EVERYTHING can be a smokescreen, you know that, right? Stating a smokescreen can be a smokescreen and so on and so forth. A big twisted plan that may never stop, but you know it does at one point and you'll never know where.

I seriously THOUGHT the CL got their turn on night one, as that parts them from the rest of the town, instead of just being as perfectly in the dark as normal townies. You're taking something that NO ONE is sure of, aside from one maybe two(If the CL got to draft) people, Sith.

You're saying that my LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS A WEAPON NOW. That's borderlining ignorant and has no backing...

I'm still waiting for Garud to answer me on what happened on night one and maybe bold text will get his attention, because it's becoming very vital and he ignored me completely the first time.

Hooray? I was going to remove my vote about halfway down this thing, but then you started throwing out that everything I'm doing must be an evil veil of scumminess, where as any single little thing can be that in this game.

Heck, I'd unvote you now, but you seem to be in the kind of mindset that would turn that into, "It's a veil! She's unvoting herself just to look good! Scum!"

And then you can turn that into, "She's keeping her vote on me too look calm under pressure with how she just stated what she said!"

And you can shape that into, "She's saying that..."

See my point here?

Want me to throw some examples out, then ask, as this is just bordering ignorant if it weren't for the fact that everything's possible.

/joke While I'm all for skinning cats... I was gonna make a point there but I'm not sure what it. /joke

I'm not trying to say that a certain playstyle is evil I'm just trying to say depending on the situation different playstyle's are more effective like today for example first day needs to be aggresive make 'em sweat make them think that they don't care who gets in your way you ARE going to find them and make them pay. The days afte rare when you can relax look at the evidence and see who slipped up and how but, that's just my 1 A.M. opinion.

Edit: Apologies for the edit but Mesden check page 3 he said it there and he had the story on page 2

Ahem.

Plus he stated pretty clearly in the post where he requested rolls who got to act. He's since edited that or I'd cite it too.

Ok now I see you vote soon because you want to give the accused person time to refute the accusation. Sorry but I don't agree that voting and pressuring a person to the point they want to shatter always gets the best results nor that it will always force the person to be honest. You might even force them into a mistake that'll lynch them. Once again you state your opinions on play style like they are some kind of bible of facts when they aren't. Just because I don't vote and point out flaws and both sides does not mean I can't level accusations. Accusations that, I know this is a great shock, the accused person can respond to.

Because that's the only possible reason to wait that long despite everything else that I've said. Also, are you now saying that going with the most believable argument is automatically bandwagoning. I said I'd weigh the evidence and do what I thought was best, ie go with the best case. The time I do that at has no effect on if I'm just going with the flow. Somehow you translated all of that into "Well I'm just going to wait and go with the crowd." If I weigh both cases and come up with a choice that is neither of the two that are tied guess what I'll go that way. I never said anything about just going with the crowd which is what bandwagoning implies. So I don't like voting soon because I like to have all information before coming to a final decision. (Also, part of it is the odd hours I keep and that infromation may come to light and the deadline pass while I am sleeping.)

OPINION. I'd argue I would have argued the exact same after all this proding if you had voted for me in the begining or not. Further I already mentioned how it could horribly backfire. I'll go on to say how it could not work at all. There is nothing to say they person you accuse just won't ignore it and remain composed. I mean you've made it no secrete you vote to get a rise out of people so now that mafiates know that a vote from you may be just to get their panties in a twist.

I thought my harsher and harsher tone was starting to clue you in that this was becoming annoying as all hell. Annoying a person is not a way to get an honest answer. Nor is it a way to get their best and most coherent argument. If anything it sets a person up to fail, heck its a police interrogation tactic which has been known to lead to false confessions. Again, I disagree that stressing the hell out of a person is the best way to get a clear argument. Hell I'm guilty of intentional pushing buttons in the discussion forum just to make my opponent look like an idiot.

I've repeated stated my rabid dislike for circular logic and demonstarted my ability to find it. I see no reason to suspect I'd fall into the trap now except maybe how horrible annoyed I am now. Also, news flash here, I'm human and I have emotions you can't consistantly attack my character for that long without getting a rise out of me. You know what happens then? I start to make slightly less sense and I start throwing out logical reasoning in favor of just attacking. Which of course is my whole point about this "pressure is good" thing, because I don't see it that way. Yet you continue to state it like its some kind of fact and the only proper way to play the game. I'm sorry but I'd rather take a different tack and offer a different viewpoint because I realize not everyone can keep cool and collected under constant attack.

A facade is difficult to maintain under extended periods of mental duress that's the foundation upon (to my understanding) Mesden's questioning is based. If you are innocent then you should have no problem whatsoever dealing with Mesden's doubt in your character. Even if she says wasn't serious at first that is how it's working out (in my opinion).

That's all well and good but it doesn't mean an innocent person won't get pissed as hell at you for repeatedly telling them they are guilty. Frankly I find it incrediablly annoying. So annoying I'd rather drop the logic and just start yelling. Its easy and seductive to just think oh he's angry so he must have something to hide. Problem his pretty much as many innocent people get mad after this as guilty people and as many guilty people stay calm as innocent people, or there abouts. So really its all a matter of how you want to read things and personally I'd rather not prod someone into killing themselves.

Seriously. Mesden, Sithdarth, you're both saying that "My way is better", but what have either of you contributed thus far? Don't say conversation, because so far most of it has just been between the two of you, and you're both just repeating yourselves as far as I can tell.

Remember that in the end it's results. You cannot say that either of your methods are better until we see them. You want to protect the townies Sithdarth-do it. Ignore Mesden's attacks, because I know that if you want to you can. Mesden, you want to be aggressive, sure, but don't do it to the point where it erupts into a flame war, which is what this is leading to and even Sithdarth can see. Even if this was a test to see if he can be decisive under pressure, playing with someone's emotions just to see how far they can go isn't good for us in the long run-both as a game and as a forum.

Agree or argue with me or someone else about something other than "This method is better". Tell me I'm wrong about Roy, or tell me I'm right, or find something entirely new completely. Just talk about something different.

And Dojin, Sithdarth's completely right in his response to you. Even innocent men lose patience, perhaps even faster than people who have something to hide.

EDIT: Also Mesden, Garud did answer your question.

Like I said, the argument with Sithdarth has made you two contribute less than most of the active members. Even IC's quick acknowledgement of my questioning of Neyo showed that he had consideration of things other than his own agenda.

Edit: Ninja'd by Ecurt. Heh, he makes me look like an ass right before I apologize, Go figure?


Bah, my mistake. I thought the cult would get a draft sheerly off the fact it would seperate them from townies on day one. Guess I was wrong. Also, sorry for missing it. Must have lost track in the plethora of posts.

Yeah, I saw that and couldn't remember exactly what it was, so I was asking for verification.

I don't want people to "Shatter". I've been doing this for many games and rarely do people blow up. They just keep about their business. I'm not in the intention of angering anyone as it's a game and I've had my fair share of that before.

I've been in a lot of games. Many a time when I just accuse someone, they won't acknowledge it. This irks me, so to guarantee a response, I vote. It may seem brash, but it DOES get an answer. I don't want people to slip and if you're innocent, there's really not much you can slip that you can't recover, as long as you can keep your cool and respond intelligently. (IE: Psycho Mantis and Nique)


Sith, more often than naught, there isn't more than one case to choose between. It's about 70%/30%. 70 being the times where most of the town agrees and 30 being where there is even a reasonable amount of doubt amongst the town.

Eh, you're being a bit more literal than I am. Either way(If there is more than one case) you're siding with a group at the end. It's a point of perspective, so I'll let our differing view on what bandwagoning in this case is, though I still don't like your way of it, but I'll not condemn for opposing views only(In this case).

You and your "Sleeping." =P. Again, last minute just doesn't sit well with me, no matter how much thought you put into it. Again, conflicting ideals.


How am I supposed to know that? My experience told me that voting was sure fired to get a diligent response, and as far as I can tell, it has.

There isn't. But this is how I judge things and saying I'm wrong for it was like me saying you were wrong for being neutral. I accepted the playstyle, though I didn't like. Agree to disagree now Sith?

See, now couldn't that backfire on them? ;)


Yes, I know, and I appologized for it. We're at odd ends and agreeing to disagree sounds mighty nice and calming right now.


It's not a good trap if I say it outloud, is it? I don't like circular logic either, but that's what your accusations can be related with, as I said. It's kind of tasteless and I don't like eliciting anger for no reason, so I'm getting to where I've been leading up to.

I had this problem all too recently and again, I'm sorry. It's a game, anger need not apply.

I know, I know. I can relate all too well and I fear we're both somewhat in the wrong for constantly bickering on such things as how we view the game should be played.

Understood. I've apologized enough and it's time I Unvote:Sithdarth because this bickering has gotten out of hands. Agree disagree, fellow player?

Why would the innocent person be mad at being told he/she was guilty they know it's not true. Just because someone decides to tell me that the sky is green why should it bug me if I have already chosen to tell them no it's blue you are wrong and they persist it's not my problem. It is your choice wether you reply to this post or not. I would take that as your defense. I don't know that other people would but, why should you worry if they vote to ban you and you're innocent you just showed the people who voted to ban you that they were wrong and should be more careful. Well anyway it's getting to be bedtime for me so I'm gonna go saw some logs g'night!

Edit: Woohoo double ninja'd

Well, it's in the edit of my last post, but Mesden kinda ninja'd my edit...if that makes sense.

Anyway...

EDIT: And the worst part is that I was ninja'd before that by Sithdarth. Heh.

EDIT 2: Ahem. Because it's bothering me so much...

Dojin, let's say I call you an idiot, over and over and over. Now, you know that's not true, but do you care that I'm saying it? Hell yes, and that's not the worst I could say. Pride is a powerful thing you know, so much so that Newb and I were pissed at each other for some time after a misunderstanding in another Mafia game.

Do I want to see that kind of thing happen again, here?

No, nor anywhere else, either.

EDIT 3: Heh, I should've noted this before. Mesden, I'm glad you've calmed down enough now, and I know you started writing your post before I posted mine ^^.

Well I was going to say all sorts of things but I guess it boils down to this:
NINJA'D

All kidding aside I'll Unvote: Mesden because really it was motivated far to much by annoyance. However, that doesn't mean I won't still be watching. Well everyone else pretty much said everything else so that's that for now.

Oh not again. What is it with you people and posting while I sleep? Now I have to go through about 6 loooong pages. But before I do that:

I'll say why, if you are the cult leader, you'd have done it. Actualy, I'lll let B_real tell you.

The thing is, you're assuming she's telling the truth. Which is fair enough. But suppose, just for a moment, that she isn't. If she is the cult leader, she has constructed a rather nice way of shifting the blame totaly away from herself like that.

But even I can see this is a theory fueled by insane paranoia. I'm just pointing it out so thaat ya'll notice, and now I'm off to read a few hundred posts of why who's doing what for what purpose their guilty of.

EDIT: OH dear god can you people talk. Ok, if Mes missed Gaurds post, her quote up there makes a little more sense, even if the meaning hasn't changed. It's strange that she drew attention to it. In bold. When she could have clicked the button "first page" and checked for herself.

heh, finally. Now I can start paying attention to Mesden's and Sithdarths long ass posts. I kinda started just skipping over them after a while of bickering since it didn't contribute anything other than "hey Sith, your method sucks" and "hey Mesden, your method sucks" and both saying "heres why". Nice to see that we have both of you on board now and not being AS egotistical.

We got that out of the way now. BACK to the game. Also, I need to reread it a bit, seeing as I might have missed something during the whole spat.

I'll request everyone to leave the whole thing alone, just because it's a bit of a post and time waster on something we want dropped. (No offense to you B_Real, just don't want anyone else saying what's already been said.)

Well...yeah.

Because I wanted to understand why IC just had a "gut feeling" about Space Pope, based on his resounding zero posts, that's why I asked.

Most of my posts have been me defending myself from Ecurt, who kept saying I was agreeing with Mesden, so yes, I had to restate myself several times. Otherwise there is really no new information to give.

See? Gut feelings aren't a good way to vote someone off!

Sorry for the inactivity, but I was in another State (Texas) in a hotel with really slow internet, up until last night. I would like to start with a little aside and say I was the reporter in Mafia: Basic. Don't know if anyone ever told you.

However now that I have read through this thread I have an opinion.

Vote: Dojindog
Why?
Exhibit A:
He accuses Roy of being suspicious because he's just tagging along, when all he really did for the rest of the thread was follow Mes around with her arguement with Sith. (While I don't think either of you are mafia yet, just players with opposing viewpoints. I must say it was a nice way to gather information on other players.)

Exhibit B:
So presenting evidence and re-itterating facts is bad? Am I just reading this wrong? Isn't that what a lawyer (And in this game everyone is a prosecution and a defense lawyer) does? Restate evidence that supports their veiw while denouncing their opponent's evidence? How does evidence make things confusing?

Exhibit C:
I don't see this whole vote quickly or the mafia's gonna get you thing. Perhaps I'm just leaning more on Sith's thought style but you don't need to vote just to vote. You need to vote when there is a reson to vote. Am I saying wait till the last moment? No, but don't vote because it seems there is a 'call to vote.' And why do you hate to take sides with Mesden. Personal vandetta, fear she's scummy? Also Mesden was doing the same thing as Sith here, wording her phrases so she appeared good and Sith bad. It seems Mes just did a better job convincing him.

To clarify, I don't see how deducing and reasoning over time can be bad. Does that mean I think we should wait forever, no.

Exhibit D and E:
This line of thinking is completely wrong. Innocent men are sent to prison because they look guilty, because people want them to be guilty, etc. If someone (lets say a police officer) was threatening your life (death penalty, as in this game) because he thought you did something, even if you knew you didn't. You would get frustrated, upset, and fearful. After all you're an INNOCENT man going to be put to DEATH for someone elses crime, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

I eagerly await your rebuttal.

Wait! Wasn't that me? Because I know I did and then Ecurt brought up different reasons.. Hm. What say ye?

Whoever the hell it was. Does confusing the names make me seem suspicious now, too?

*Facepalm*

Yes.

In what way?

Because you changed the facts. Silly Kitty and Ecurt are NOT similar in any way. It seems like you aren't paying attention. This is the second time you have messed up what you are saying.

Yeah. In that way.

Liar. We all know Ecurt has two accounts, lives in two states, can turn from a short man of some hispanic decent into a short caucasian, southern teenage girl. /joke

But, Roy, this is where you should quote the people you're opposing.

I didn't change the facts. You cannot change the facts. That's what facts are. They are thing that actually happened, and you cannot change them. I misremembered the facts. There is a difference.

When you misremember something and state it to someone else that person will remember it the way you said. Whether you meant it that way or not is not the point. For the person who read it that is the facts. Getting your facts right is key in this game. Anything you say can and will be used against you. I'm not too sure about you as of this point. Expect my vote later.

Look. I don't think that my mistaking a name is indicative of my status as Town- or Mafia-aligned. I think it means that I forgot.

Problem is that we don't and can't know that. If we could just know that people were talling the truth, this game wouldn't be any fun. You should probably take some of the stuff here as seriously as you would the legal system, where people try to fuck you over 10 times a day. :D

Edit to post below since I don't want every other post discussion things:

It's because it looks like you're trying to make people believe what isn't the truth. If I were to, say, say that Mesden had argued with, oh, Newb for instance, people would attack me left and right because it would look like I'm trying to make Newb take SithDarth's place. Some people didn't like SD's points of view, therefore they wouldn't like Newb's non-existant ones if they had totally forgotten who the real poster was.

No-one has explained, however, how my confusing one person who was supsicious of me's name with the other was suspicious.

EDIT: Didn't finish my sentence.

Pretending to be forgetful and lacking skill is a veil creating tactic to make yourself look unworthy of a lynching.

Now there is a good explanation. Thank you. I can understand that. I just couldn't understand why before, when no-one would explain it to me.a

hey guys, Maybe Roy's just bad at this game? Or maybe he's the town drunk.

Anywho, I'm much more interested in these accusations h4x m4g3 brought up about Dojin Dog. Especially the personal vendetta thing.

We all have a vendetta against Mesden in some way shape or form. No offense but damn, you've had more evil roles than any of us. Some of us haven't gotten an evil role ONCE yet. And you've had it what? 3? 4 times already? Now, Its possible she could be a mafiate or some other role again, but damn people. SHE ISN'T! Atleast not to the extent of our knowledge. IF you guys absolutely want to be sure, have the PO investigate her and the PO can tell us if she is a mafiate. If she isn't, then don't say a thing PO until she's about to be wrongfully lynched.

All we have to go on from here is what we say and do, and as far as I'm concerned, this is Roy's first game, and I think we can cut him some slack. Dojindog on the otherhand, he's in INexperienced mafia, but atleast already has some experience and got some inside tips from Mesden, Newb, and Spacepope in that game. Roy, he's just now learning about the game mechanics and how it works. If the problem persists, I say lynch him, but otherwise, lets let the nubs be nubs for the first day ok? (no offense Roy)

No offense taken, B_real. Thanks.