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neyo the king 06-13-2007 06:37 PM

Language Learning Advice Wanted!
 
You just don't understand how much I want/need to learn Japanese.

I know that there are at least some people here that have learned it (or at least, I'm hoping...), and I have but one question:

What is the best way/website/book/whatever that will help me on my way to speaking Japanese?

42PETUNIAS 06-13-2007 09:28 PM

Some sort of program would probably be the best. I'm sure you could find a local languages course. Aside from that, I have no experience with audio stuff, but I can't imagine it's effective compared to real human contact.

adamark 06-13-2007 10:02 PM

The Rosetta Stone software is the best choice. The State Department, DoD, and Peace Corps all use Rosetta for language training. It's somewhat pricey, but cheaper than tutors...

Loki, The Fallen 06-13-2007 10:08 PM

Open the Title™gates
 
You can never go wrong with classes. Structure definitely helps when trying to process any information, without it I found it very difficult to decide where to start.

I've had excellent luck with books, but then again, I spend way too much on that. (I am also trying to learn the same subject and I'm sure I've broken over $200 on reading/audio material.)

I've tried an audio course (Japanese in No Time) and found that it helped a little with pronunciation, but was more geared at preparing someone for basic conversation. It's helpful if you’re planning on going on a trip and need to order a drink, but I wanted more.

I would definitely recommend, if you can't do complete immersion for whatever reason (from what I've heard it is the best way, have experienced it but not with the subject in question.), at least find someway to immerse yourself in it, be it watching subtitled video (which may/may not help, depending) or even listening to audio (Music or language tapes). I've become addicted to some music, and it's helped me with pronunciation and with slowly expanding my vocabulary.

But of all the recommendations, I would advise a class, at least one, to help with memorization of the syllabary and basic conversation. It will give you a foundation to work with, and it might help you find others interested in it, which will be a big help, having someone to work with is a plus. Check local organizations, as some collages may not have that in their catalog.

How much research have you put into it so far? Have you picked up a dictionary and/or a Kanji/Kana book yet?

neyo the king 06-13-2007 10:44 PM

The most experience I have had is the first four lessons of this website, but then I realized that it wasn't helping at all. And, of course, all the subbed anime I've watch, even though that didn't help much, either...

I'm not sure if there are any classes I can take locally, so, are there any classes I can take online that would be effective?

Loki, The Fallen 06-13-2007 10:51 PM

InterTitle™?
 
Online courses are the one thing I did not do much research in. My teacher did recommend a nice site that helped me alot with hiragana/katakana memorization.

http://www.realkana.com/

I'll have to check through the e-mail she sent us, there may be other sites that may help.

EDIT: Dear God! adamark, you arn't kidding about that price!

Mike McC 06-13-2007 11:56 PM

Check this out, see if it helps.

Project LRNJ.

neyo the king 06-14-2007 01:00 AM

Alright, I've tried both realkana.com and that slime forest game thingy, and, I just don't think their working for me. I think what would work for me is a class, but there are no classes locally for me, I've checked... That's what I get for living in the middle of Kentucky...

I don't know though, it's possible I'm just not allowing myself enough time with them to really absorb the lessons, like the Slime Forest game. It seems really interesting, and it's ever funny at some points, but as a learning device, I just don't get it.

Also, on Rosetta Stone, I believe that that would work wondrously... which is probably why I'll have to sell my house to get it...

Crodevillian Team 06-14-2007 06:06 AM

Okay.

First, I'm going to tell you to not bother learning Japanese. I mean, really. Don't bother. It's such a hassle. Learn Dutch, because the Dutch are great people. Learn Spanish, because it's much easier to learn, and for someone living in the United States would be very useful and fun. You'd have opportunities to use it. You won't have opportunities to use Japanese. Chinese would be more beneficial for business. Learning Arabic or Russian could get you a government job. Taking on French will impress girls.

Deciding to study Japanese leads to a lot of, "Oh, well, that's cool. But why?" Thinking about getting a job in Japan? Possible, because a friend of mine now works for Nissan Trading, but not likely. The chances of you teaching English to salarymen more interested in learning what "Mr. Jack Bauer, we're going to have to place you custody until we find the bombs" means than actual productive language skills are much higher. And after talking to hundreds of such disillusioned English teachers, it wouldn't be something that I recommend.

Want to speak to real, live Japanese on their home turf? The vast majority will be too terrified to approach you. Those who do will treat you like a puppy dog if your Japanese isn't very good, or will think you're no longer interesting if it is. The Japanese that don't fit into either of these categories are rare, but are among the coolest people I've ever met.

If, after reading my advice, you're thinking, "CroTeam, you old curmudgeon, your words don't mean a thing to me! Screw you, I'm learning Japanese!" then this is the cheesy part of the lecture where I reveal that you're like me. I ignored it all and decided to learn the language. You want to know the truth? I've been telling you the truth, and given time you'll find this out for yourself. That's a promise. But, more importantly, I have to tell you that I don't regret anything.

Now, since I'm guessing you're going to proceed with your studies, I'll offer some language learning advice, and not "Learn -another- language" advice.

Ask yourself why you want to learn Japanese. Is it because you want to watch anime without subtitles? That's not good enough, and you'll never learn. Here's a fact: Every Japanese language class has ten of these kids, and one kid who is genuinely interested in the language. Want to know who inevitably gives up? It's the ten kids who wanted to watch FMA before a subtitle team could get their hands on it. (This isn't exaggeration. This is something that has been true in my experience, and the experience of people from multiple countries). Why? Because this isn't enough motivation to learn Japanese. Trust me on this one: It takes a LOT of motivation to learn Japanese. It's frustrating, it's often infuriating, and the "easy" parts rarely come without a hitch.

If your primary interest is to understand Japanese pop music or know what "datte ba yo" means without referring to a dictionary, then don't waste your time or your energy. Japanese pop music isn't very good and anime is often subtitled. Just wait for someone else to do the work for you.

If, however, you're that one kid who has a genuine desire to learn, then here's what you're going to have to do.

You're going to have to take classes. You HAVE to acquire the basics in a class room setting. Japanese is much too tricky, and requires much more explanation than any book is able to offer. I have seen many of these "Learn Japanese!" books, and more often than not they're of an extremely poor quality. They're usually written entirely in Romaji, focus too much on giving you simple English translations of complex phrases without telling you -how- it arrived to that, and in many cases, are just plain incorrect.

These "Learn Japanese Quick!" books will not teach you Japanese. Don't be fooled. Don't waste your money. They do not teach you useful Japanese, and they do not teach you correct Japanese. Listen to this much: You will not learn Japanese from them

Learning Japanese requires that you practice both listening and speaking. You have to train your ears, and you have to start talking. Listening to CDs will help to some extent, but they usually don't speak at a normal conversational pace, and since nothing changes from listen number one to listen number 10, eventually you're going to be able to REALLY understand "Anata ha, dochira kara kimashita ka?" but are also going to be REALLY bored. The CDs also rarely teach you conversational Japanese, only polite forms that all the Japanese people you meet are going to be throwing out the window either from the get go or soon thereafter. So it won't be "Anata ha, dochira kara kimashita ka?" but "Dokkara kitan?"

Finally, and this is obvious, but you can't have a conversation with a CD.

You need a teacher. You need someone to answer your questions, who can offer an explanation that makes sense to you, who can guide you through misunderstandings, who can correct your pronunciation and intonation, who can offer you cultural insights, who puts pressure on you to learn, and who can -teach- you Japanese.

Therefore, and this is critical, you're going to have to take classes. If this isn't an option, but you still really want to learn Japanese, then you're going to have to realize that "not having the option" isn't an excuse. You're going to have to find the option. You say there aren't any classes offered around you, but are you sure? I think you'd be surprised. There's usually some class, at some place, that's offering to teach you the language. Look hard. Call the Asian Studies departments of Universities in your state. They might be able to help. Check to see if there are any Japanese clubs in your area. Anything to get you a connection.

Are you in college? If not, apply to a college that offers Japanese. Colleges that offer Japanese often have the most important thing ever: Study abroad programs in Japan.

A study abroad program is what is ultimately going to teach you Japanese. Being surrounded by the language will help you immensely. You will have the opportunities, and even better, you will be forced to interact, even when you don't want to. Of course, just being in Japan isn't enough. Hundreds of interactions with foreigners who have been living in Japan for ten years but still can't have a conversation has taught me this much. You will have to study. You will have to work. You will have to interact.

If you're in a college that doesn't offer Japanese, then transfer. You really want to learn Japanese, right? University study is the stepping stone to bigger and better opportunities.

If you're really truly bent on independent study, then I'm tempted to tell you to just give up now; Starting from zero and trying to learn Japanese on your own is nearly impossible. I think this goes for every language. It is absolutely necessary that you acquire enough basics to have a sufficiently firm grasp of the language to where you can THEN continue study on your own. Once you have progressed to an intermediate level, you can start benefitting from self study. You can completely erase English from the equation and learn from books that offer all explanations in Japanese.

Another pointer: DO NOT learn Japanese from anime. It is not the kind of Japanese that will help you function on a day to day level. You will not learn conversational Japanese. You will look like a fool.

INSTEAD, start watching Japanese live action soap operas. They may not be as interesting, but the language used in these dramas is an accurate reflection of how Japanese works in the real world. Waseda University's Intensive Japanese Language Program offers courses that teach Japanese through dramas. If it's good enough for one of the most prestigious universities in Japan, it's good enough for everyone.

Now, you wanted to know the best way to learn the language.

Go to Japan. There -are- language schools in Japan that accept independently applying students. In fact, I mentioned it already, but Waseda University's IJLP accepts independent candidates, though it is admittedly much more difficult. Their application requires you to take a test, but it is an initial placement exam, not simply a screening process, because they DO offer courses that start from zero. I think living in Japan while enrolled in a course of study is the only way that you begin to TRULY learn Japanese, but is a big step to start from initially. It would be better to take some classes, and then make the leap.

You say you really want/need to learn the language, so I've been brutally honest with you. Learning exclusively from websites or books will not take you very far, and the results will not be satisfying. Look for a teacher. Look for a chance to make it to Japan.

I've been living in Japan for almost a year, and studied the language for much longer. My advice comes from experience, and I don't mean to discourage you. If you have questions, talk to me.

Mike McC 06-14-2007 09:52 PM

Really, Slime Forest really shouldn't be used as a strict learning device, but probably more as a supplimental thing. A glorified flash-card, so to speak. Also, you really need to give learning languages time. Even easy-to-learn constructed languages takes months of study to grasp. For something that's as structurally different as Japanese, you probably aren't going to have noticeable improvement in a couple of days. You need to give it a few months.

Finding a conversation partner could possibly --- not definately --- be accomplished through Skype. And, as croteam mentioned, in order to really get practice in a language, you really do need to have casual, unscripted conversation.

Which will make my goal of learning Gaelic that much more difficult.


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