The Warring States of NPF

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-   -   The Subspoiler Emissary: A SUPER SMASH BROS. BRAWL THREAD (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=27029)

Mirai Gen 02-09-2008 10:44 AM

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Most people that I've seen that claim to be pros and apparently recognized everywhere don't seem to know what the heck are they doing when playing. I've seen ONE good movie and it was from a guy using Fox in the original beating 3 lvl 9 CPUs without getting hit once in a 3 stock battle. The rest? Pfft. People repeat the same moves over and over, people don't do side smashes, instead doing down smashes in times it'd be way better to do side smashes... I don't know. Maybe I haven't seen good gameplay movies yet? Heck, I really don't know, but that Gimpyfish vs Eggz movie, for example? That didn't seem so amazing to me for them to be considered "pros".
The game isn't even out yet, and the leaked copies that were out have been out, what, maybe a month and a half? Tops? Less?

The game is so radically different the pro players are still SHFFLing by instinct. Give it some more time.

Or, also, consider that they can't always do exactly what they meant to in every circumstance, that's part of the pro-league of vs fighters.

I would suggest that, as a non-pro player you really don't have any idea what the pro players are doing when they do an attack that makes no sense. Melee was a super-intense thumbstick-tweaking mindgame. I couldn't even really get the hang of SHFFLing Zelda's Toe, that's what caused me to get my ass totally whipped.

So, yeah, in short there's too many factors contributing to these guys not having the 'skill' they should. And trust me, Gimpyfish is good. He's an all-aces Bowser player from Washington and he's a badass. But, he's a badass in Melee, over the last few years.

Loyal 02-09-2008 11:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Ryong
Stuff

I would like to note that you're saying the pro players have no idea what they're talking about, and then comparing their results to a computer player. I don't wanna jump down anyone's throat without due cause (figuratively, figuratively speaking), so would you care to explain yourself?

Because if you took that line of thought to absolutely anyplace else dedicated to Smash Bros, you'd be laughed out within an hour.

[EDIT] I'll narrow it down - Take what you saw in the first match Mirai linked and tell us what was "bad" about it.

Ryong 02-09-2008 11:31 AM

I'm not commenting on Brawl videos only. I've seen a lot of melee videos that seen...Strange. Like they don't know what they're doing. Also, I really don't know how slow the other moves Bowser has are ( I know the flamethrower is way too slow and leaves you too vulnerable ) but spamming up+b doesn't seem that good. Didn't moves get weaker if you kept spamming them, at least back in the original? The guy's style is "wait for the enemy's attack, shield and Up+b" mostly. When I see "SSB"/"SSBM" and "pro", I expect some great edgeguarding, not spamming the same move over and over and knowing what moves to do and when to do them. That Gimpyfish movie against Mario, from your last post? Mario had a LOT of opportunities to smash Bowser, but wasted them.

Mesden 02-09-2008 11:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Ryong

Most people that I've seen that claim to be pros and apparently recognized everywhere don't seem to know what the heck are they doing when playing. I've seen ONE good movie and it was from a guy using Fox in the original beating 3 lvl 9 CPUs without getting hit once in a 3 stock battle. The rest? Pfft. People repeat the same moves over and over, people don't do side smashes, instead doing down smashes in times it'd be way better to do side smashes... I don't know. Maybe I haven't seen good gameplay movies yet? Heck, I really don't know, but that Gimpyfish vs Eggz movie, for example? That didn't seem so amazing to me for them to be considered "pros".

You know, in Dawn of War, I can totally kill 3 computer players at their hardest level and yet I'll still lose to some random guy on the net who's only a semi pro?

The reason is is that computers have predictable AI patterns that are easy to exploit. Being able to beat computers in practically any game is just relevant to how long the game's been out and how easily broken down the AI is. Being able to beat computers is easy once you know even their basic patterns. People are entirely different.

Ryong 02-09-2008 11:35 AM

Well, I tried fighting 3 lvl 9 CPUs. It was blatantly hard due to gigantic combos between them. And, as I've said, I haven't ever played Melee, but I just see a trend between said pro players to not use side smash moves, instead, prefering up or down smashes. I get it when it's to hit someone who's too far to get hit with a side smash, but a down smash works ( for people using Ness, for example ) but sometimes it seems way strange why they do it. Also, how slow can Bowser's side smash be? I haven't seen it being used as much as it should ( well, to me ).

Eldezar 02-09-2008 11:49 AM

Cruel Brawl with Marth.

So far I have only seen two cruel brawl movies, and it doesn't seem like anyone is too willing to go higher then one of the easier difficulties just yet. And strategy is relatively simple. But then it was in melee as well, just much harder to do then.

Loyal 02-09-2008 11:54 AM

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Also, I really don't know how slow the other moves Bowser has are
Slow. Slow.
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but spamming up+b doesn't seem that good. Didn't moves get weaker if you kept spamming them, at least back in the original?
In Melee, they only do less damage as you use them. They keep their knockback. Bowser's Up-B is (1) quick to pull off, (2) Sends opponents reasonably high up even at low percentages, and (3) Can be maneuvered so that Bowser grabs the ledge during the attack (see: Any Bowser-centric match on Yoshi's Story).
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The guy's style is "wait for the enemy's attack, shield and Up+b" mostly.
And as you've noticed, it's remarkably effective, as Bowser's alternatives are slow and generally leave him vulnerable to attacks.
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When I see "SSB"/"SSBM" and "pro", I expect some great edgeguarding, not spamming the same move over and over and knowing what moves to do and when to do them.
Bowser has a great edgeguarding game against some characters, but some characters (like Mario) are nearly impossible for the Koopa King to edgeguard against if they can land on the platform without grabbing the ledge.

Consider that Bowser's aerial moves have considerable lag before saying "He could jump off the ledge and intercept early". The only move Bowser can get away with in that regard is Forward Air, which isn't too useful when opponents approach from a low angle.

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Also, how slow can Bowser's side smash be? I haven't seen it being used as much as it should ( well, to me ).
Bowser's side smash takes about a second to pull off, uncharged (only slightly faster than the Falcon Punch, without the advantage of being able to start it in midair).
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And, as I've said, I haven't ever played Melee, but I just see a trend between said pro players to not use side smash moves, instead, prefering up or down smashes. I get it when it's to hit someone who's too far to get hit with a side smash, but a down smash works ( for people using Ness, for example ) but sometimes it seems way strange why they do it.
Side Smashes are, for the most part, best kept limited to finishing moves as they're almost all (1) Slow to start, and therefore require some combo'ing into to pull off, (2) Slow to finish, and therefore best kept till you'll really send them flying, or (3) Have limited hitboxes, and therefore need timing and combo'ing into to pull off. (Notable exception: Marth)

Up and Down smashes tend to have much wider ranges, but ultimately, most characters are much better off using primarily airborne attacks. Ground-based attacks can't be L-Cancelled.

Ryong 02-09-2008 11:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Eldezar
Cruel Brawl with Marth.

So far I have only seen two cruel brawl movies, and it doesn't seem like anyone is too willing to go higher then one of the easier difficulties just yet. And strategy is relatively simple. But then it was in melee as well, just much harder to do then.

Ok, see that? Yeah, it's cheap, but it takes skill. That seems to me more in the right way than most of the gameplay movies.

Edit: The above post explained half of the fights. Now, there's still something. First, look at the first Gimpyfish vs Eggz battle. Bowser keeps trying to return but Mario only hits him when he's already landed, he doesn't try to hit Bowser in mid-air, which would be a lot more effective. Now, losing an opportunity is normal, but three times in a row? The heck? Also, if Bowser is usually used better if he grabs a ledge with Up+b than just using up+b and getting in the middle of the platform, then why didn't he manuever better? Is it that hard to do so?

And my whole discussion about side smashes is because I really like them. They're good for 1v1, especially if you're sure you're going to hit, but most people I've seen don't seem to like taking a small risk for a sure shot, thus do a down+b or an up+b.

Loyal 02-09-2008 12:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Ryong
Ok, see that? Yeah, it's cheap, but it takes skill. That seems to me more in the right way than most of the gameplay movies.

Yes, that was the spammage of a move that proved itself to be effective. Much like what a professional player would do, only more limited.

I'd just like to add that resourcefulness and diversity in your attacks is fine and well, but not as much if it gets you killed in the process because you decided you had to do something different instead of what works.

The Wizard Who Did It 02-09-2008 12:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Ryong
Well, I tried fighting 3 lvl 9 CPUs. It was blatantly hard due to gigantic combos between them. And, as I've said, I haven't ever played Melee, but I just see a trend between said pro players to not use side smash moves, instead, prefering up or down smashes. I get it when it's to hit someone who's too far to get hit with a side smash, but a down smash works ( for people using Ness, for example ) but sometimes it seems way strange why they do it.

The weird part here is you admit to having no professional experience in Melee, but you call into question how the pros do their mojo.
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Also, how slow can Bowser's side smash be? I haven't seen it being used as much as it should ( well, to me ).
Look at 1:14 in this video Mirai linked.


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