I meant more in terms of being the character everyone suddenly starts playing because they saw a combo video or two like that and thought that playing said character will automatically make them awesome. Maybe "the new Fox" would have been a better analogy. I dunno.

EDIT: Or "the new Sheik", ironically.

That Farore's Wind guide looks pretty useful. I kill myself so much with Zelda hitting right under the ledges.

My friends are starting to complain about Din's Fire. Anytime somebody is out of melee range I'll nail them over and over with pretty good accuracy. They say it's spammy, but I disagree on the grounds that I feel it takes a relative amount of skill, more so than Pit's side+b or Pikachu's thunder. Anybody else think it's an easy to spam move?

Also, is Nayru's Love only good for deflecting projectiles or is it worth doing in close range?

Nayru's Love has some pretty insane priority, so it's also good in close range.

Oh, Din's Fire is totally spammy but that's what's great about it. It's not like it isn't blockable or dodgeable, so it's really your opponents' fault if they can't adequately defend against it.

Nayru's Love is also a good move at melee range. It's not a huge damage attack, but it can pretty much get everyone off you if they get in too close, giving you a chance to go on the offense while they recover.

Nothing beats using Nayru's love to bounce back annoying missiles.

And I don;t find Din's Fire too spammy. I mean, you need to use it properly, but it's in the same category as Pit's Arrows.

I find that Pit's arrows are a lot worse because the speed is so much higher. If one hits you, you can get into an almost-locked kind of position where you would have to jump or dodge at exactly the right moment to get out. Then apply the 1 second command lag from online play, and an otherwise slightly annoying move becomes the stuff of evil things that need to die.

This is true. I noticed this as a Pitified Kirby.

Not as bad as the Paper Fan of Doom, though. So sad the comp never uses it right. :p

What's nice about Brawl so far is that there is no Marth or Sheik. Zelda has definitely become much more noticeable due to her upgrades (And her nerfs, as the Toe has become the Heel and made it much less dangerous). The ones that come close are mostly Metaknight, Toon Link, and Wolf, but they all have their disadvantages (Mario can Smash MK at like 70% or lower, Most of Wink's attacks are able to be DI'd out of, and Wolf has some of the shittiest recovery in the game.)

There's been lots of speculation on tier lists on Smash Boards. I sifted through the crap to bring you one I mostly agree with.
Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Ice Climbers
Olimar
King Dedede
Zelda
Pit
Fox
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas

Mid Tier:
lke
Diddy Kong
Ness
Peach
Sheik
Luigi
Wario
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Kirby
Mario
Bowser

Low tier :
Samus
Donkey Kong
Sonic
Yoshi
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
I think that Pokemon Trainer should be split up because, honestly, his character is different matchups depending on who you are, and therefore they should move them accordingly.

And in response to all questions: Yep, Jigglypuff and Cap and Link and Sonic and DK are all that lousy in terms of competitive play. It could change though.

This is not official! It's all fanmade.

*Shrug* DK's actually quite usable in this game. I'm curious as to how they'd put him so low.

I personally find the very concept of Tiers annoying. They turned what could have been perfectly good all-character tournaments into a marth vs falco fudgepack-o-rama.

Something like that would have happened anyway, tier list or no.

Also, Europe release date finally confirmed: June 27th!

http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/...dule_7920.html

Zero Punctuation has finally released a critic on Brawl. watch and be dissapointed. (Like any Zero Punctuation video, it may be a little bit NSFW for the swearing etc)

I think he was a little too hard on the game. Most of the things he made fun of it for don't even make sense. He said that the flashy effects get in the way, and the characters get tangled and punched together, but I've never had a problem with anything like that.

I think mostly he was trying to pull a "Everyone likes this game, so making fun of it must make me better than them."

Seriously, who can hate Smash Bros?

I get the feeling the guy doesn't like the Wii at all. Or Nintendo. Or Japan really. (Having only watched his reviews of Super Mario Galaxy, Resident Evil: UC, and Super Paper Mario, so take this with a grain of salt. Or garlic. Mmmmm, garlic...)

Then again, maybe he's a total Japanophile(?)... Nah.

The Wandering God

Edit: Oh yeah, and I'm really having fun with this game. I just wish my roommates were more interested. And the Subspace Emissary is everything I hoped it would be, and more!

I like Smash Bros. but it really does get extremely chaotic at times and on the whole the review isn't what I'd say, but I definitely see how you would.

Zero Punctuation seems like a video, gaming version of Maddox. "I'm going to say something that's my opinion. I'm going to exaggerate it intensely for humor's sake. Look at how funny I am."

He pulls it off well and it is funny but he basically puts okay or good games in the shithole with how he grades them (Smash Bros or DMC4, for example).

That review reminds me a bit of Tim Rodgers' review, which consisted of "What the hell, this isn't Super Mario Bros 3. Why is this game so chaotic? Instead of trying to learn every aspect of it and find out what it is I'm going to assume it's stupid. I hate it." Granted of course Zero Punctuation was trying to hate it for humor.
I think you find the concept of tournaments annoying. Tournaments are observed and studied closely and the competition holders and winners of the tournaments get together and discuss the power of each character, creating a tier list.

Tiers don't make tournaments, tournaments make tiers.

Me. I hate it.

Granted, I'm like the opposite of the target audience since I hate fighting games and haven't owned one Nintendo system between the NES and the Wii so there's basically no conceivable way I could have enjoyed the game, but still.

I'd also like to say that Yahtzee doesn't hate Smash Brothers, it's just that he doesn't like it at all. Partly due to design decisions (Character unlocks, Camera distance) but mainly because at it's very core there's nothing for him to enjoy. If he really hated it he would have been jumping out of the starting gates to review it and mutilate it. As it stands, he only broke down to get people to shut up about him reviewing it.

Edit:

I don't think he actually exaggerates his opinion of the game.

Yahtzee's said before (and in this video) that he doesn't care for multiplayer games. Taking that into account, there's very little for him to like with Smash Bros because almost all of the enjoyment comes from the replay value provided by multiplayer. The singleplayer mode is fun, but not very long-lasting.

The character unlocking is, in my opinion, one of the game's strong points (not the fact that it needs to be unlocked, but the fact that you can spend so much time getting it all), but yeah, if you're ONLY going to play multiplayer a few times with friends, you aren't going to be content with the 20-or-so characters you begin with. Especially because Snake is not one of them.

So yeah, I think the ZP review is perfectly justified based on Yahtzee's playing style. And reviewing style.


That said, I love the game to bits and the only problems I have with it are the elements of complete randomness, ie tripping, poke-balls, and those stupid annoying clocks that randomly slow down time for you instead of enemies.

Re: the tier list, I think it's far from set in stone, and while I'm happy with some of the decisions (Snake and Metaknight are awesome), I think that there's still time for everyone to be proven wrong by the discovery of a new tactic or something.

EDIT: Okay, for some reason I thought Pit was mid-tier. Forget what I said about him being higher.

It's like he said at the beginning, he doesn't even like fighting games. He pretty much states there are things he could like(Read: Adventure Mode), but as a whole, it didn't convert him.

Sounds like he may need to play Soul Caliber 2.

Ahmmm...


You got it wrong though. Tiers are not what create Marth vs Falco fudgepack-o-ramas, but rather Marth vs Falco fudgepack-o-ramas create tier. Tier lists are nothing more than a record of what characters are used to what effectiveness in tournaments. If someone is in a high position that's because that character has been proven to be very effective in competitive gameplay.

He has repeatedly said he will find any flaw in good games and exaggerate them (see his Galaxy and his No More Heroes reviews) even if he likes them. I think the only exception to that is anything created by Valve (or Psychonauts).

Which isn't bad -he did touch some issues with Brawl that are a bother to the casual non-familiar player, like him. Of course, at the point when he used just plain wrong facts you have to take the review with a grain of salt.

See, what I hate about Yahtzee isn't his videos (not using the term "review"), as those are legitimately funny comedy bits, but the fact that the second he passes gas or anything there is no place on the Internets I can go where everyone isn't making a huge fucking deal about it.

He's the Angry Video Game Nerd with a British accent and some flash animation. It's nothing new. Overrated goon is overrated.

Seriously, if you are, at any point in your life, basing a decision of any sort on the idea of "because Yahtzee said so", please take a good look in the mirror, studying your face closely, then look straight into the reflection of your eyes and, never breaking your gaze for a moment, begin repeatedly pounding your face into the glass until thoroughly satisfied that deferring to an internet comic's judgment is a terrible, terrible idea.

So is this just like a general plea to the internet or what?

Yeah, for the most part. Mostly I had Yahtzee and how wonderful and perfect he's supposed to be crammed down my throat from various directions all day yesterday and would be more than pleased to never hear about him again.

Eh... he makes funny videos.
He IS Angry Video Game Rant Boy, or whatever, but it's funny.

And reviews are ALWAYS opinions. I've never found one review that didn't have opinions forming the basis of the verdict. (Note to others: That's why you read multiple reviews and compare them. Then, when in doubt, rent so you can make your own opinion.)

I hardly take him serious for whatever he's saying.
You can pretty much tell he's not taking himself serious. (Note to self, practice typing serious, because it's not typed "seirous".)

I laughed at the review of SSB:B. It was funny.

I want someone to keep me up to date on when Yahtzee becomes too popular so I can start hating him.

I thought he WAS exceedingly popular already?

Yeah, I'd say now's as good a time as any.

Since when does DFM not hate indiscriminately?

I'd go far as to say he's the video gaming Maddox. I don't know what it is about hate-culture or why it enthralls so many people but all it makes me do is just sigh in irritation whenever people review good things and make them out to be awful just to incite humor.

It's like Yhatzee is flaming the entire internet simultaneously.

Slightly more on topic: People have been rating Ganondorf actually above Captain Falcon recently, because Ganondorf has his huge range and brute strength, and Captain Falcon seems to do everything bad-to-mediocre. Falcon Paaaanch is too slow, the Knee can't be comboed anymore, his Dair spike isn't as useful as it used to be, etc etc etc. Discuss?

Also: Ganondorf's Ftilt. "This is Sparta!"

I'd agree. I use Gannon more than Falcon, which makes me kind of sad. Falcon just isn't as good in Brawl. His up-b seems to miss a lot more times than it did in Melee, his Falcon Punch is pretty avoidable in most instances, and his final smash (while incredibly cool) can also be dodged pretty easily. Plus they re-recorded "Fal-coooon PAAAUUUNCH!!" in a way that is less awesome, which quite frankly saddens me.

Something I've been thinking about...

It seems that many people, myself included, have reached a collective conclusion that it's not so much Falcon's moveset that sucks, as much as it's just him getting screwed over by Brawl's physics. With that in mind, quite a few people have suggested using High Grav mode for tournaments as it leads to quicker, more Melee-reminiscent matches.

I wonder how such an effect would change Falcon's usability? I intend to experiment... starting now.

Also: Wario and me are home-boys now. :o

I'm not quite sure that's the proper solution. I mean, if you want Melee-reminiscent tournaments, then why not go make Melee tournaments?

This isn't even a casual vs. pro issue. It's about people not being able to let go the fact that we've moved on to another game, merely, because their previous skills don't translate as they expected over to Brawl.

I'd also like to add the fact that Captain Falcon's getting banged over by the physics changes is true but that's something the developers should have considered.

He may be worse because of the changes, but so is Bowser. And you don't see anyone complaining.

Cept me.

*Sad face*

Does not compute.

Bowser's Koopa Klaw became a grab-only instead of a grab and slash. Fair can't be SHFFLed anymore, so you have really bad lag.

He's not that much worse since he's always been kind of lousy at 1v1. But the point still stands.

I believe that Bowser is better, his smashes are easier to hit and I believe they have more knockback, and his speed has been upped a bit. I really don't think He's suffering too much. I say he improved, though some moves have been a bit nerfed

I am seriously starting to hate the AI on this game. Why they didn't bother trying to program 3 competing computer controlled characters to actually fight each other instead of just mob the one human player is beyond me. Computer gets a smash ball? Immediately chases after me. Match starts, all three come straight for me. No matter where I am on the stage, all three of the fuckers will follow me there. What the hell, man?

EDIT: Okay, just to test it out, I did a match at Hyrule Temple against 3 lvl 6 opponents and just started running around the stage to see what they'd do. As you'd expect, all three of them chased me around the stage, not attacking each other. Mario grabbed a Smash Ball and chased me around the stage for at least half a minute while completely ignoring better targets before just letting it go in some random direction. He also assembled the Dragoon and (you guessed it) immediately pulled the targeting crosshairs right to me despite Lucas being a closer target.

Then, finally, after my half-assed-for-the-sake-of-experimentation playing got me eliminated, I watched as the three of them bounced around the stage randomly trying to figure out what to do next, clumsily attempting to attack one another on occasion for several minutes (each with only one stock left, mind you).

I'd offer to play a few matches with you if my latency didn't suck so badly right now.

[EDIT] These are just adorable.

Eh, if I had a wireless router I wouldn't be wasting my time with Suckivac over here. I needs me some humans to play against.

Definitely appreciate the sentiment, though. Thanks.

You could just buy the lan Adapter, thats what I have, and it works great.

Yes, but any option at the moment requires spending more money than I'd like for the rest of the month. I've got bills to pay, after all. Also, the wireless router is the most accessible option insofar as just going to a store and buying it.

I have once again taken notice of this thread and as such I am closing for page limit (plus like a hundred and twenty).