Barbarian/Fighter -> Frenzied Berserker Twinks?
 

I am going into a campaign soon based in Faerun where I am starting as a Rashemi from Rashamen (who saw that coming?). My first level will be Barbarian, and I hope to make my 7th level Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior). Despite this, I have come to a bit of a dillema about whether or not I should cross class with fighter in my first 6 levels.

level 6 Barbarian Advantages: Uncanny Dodge, Higher HP.

Level 6 Barbarian Dis-Advantages: The prerequisites for Frenzied Berserker consume all my feats through level 6.

Level 2 Barbarian, Level 4 Fighter Advantages: I go barbarian long enough for 1 rage/day, Uncanny Dodge, and fast movement. Then I go fight long enough for 3 bonus feats, bumping me up from 4 to 7 total feats at level 6, making it so that I have 3 MORE than are required for Frenzied Berserker. This lets me get the Dreadful Wrath regional feat (and I plan to use it a lot), then grab Extra Rage for 3 Rages per day instead of 1. After this I can grab 1 more feat, I am thinking of either getting bonuses to Greatsword with it or getting Extended Rage. Cross Classing From Barbarian also kills my Illiteracy.

Level 2 Barbarian, Level 4 fighter disadvantages: Lower HP, I don't get Improved Uncanny Dodge, I get fewer automatic Rages and I think it will cut back on the length of my rages as well, making other feats that give them necessary.



Any thoughts or opinions? Those are just 2 ways I can go, but I'm open to just about anything that goes for that type of build. Anyone know any twinks for that?

I think going 2 Barbarian/4 Fighter is your best bet.

At the very least you could pick up either Improved Toughness to offset the ever-so-slightly fewer hitpoints you'd have for 4 levels (a difference of 5.5 on average to 6.5 on average, 1 hit point per Fighter level taken so 4 hit points less). By the time you're 4th level or higher you've already negated the HP penalty and it will steadily increase overtime. On the other side you could also take Extra Rage which would bump it up to 3/per day instead of 2/per day you'd get if you went 4 Barbarian/2 Fighter instead. I'm not sure if Extra Rage is a Fighter bonus feat or not (probably not) but you could always use one of your other feats here instead like Power Attack and pick up Extra Rage either at 1st, 3rd, or 6th level or the bonus human feat.

And that's just negating the losses you'd receive. You could always try going for something like Leap Attack or Cleave or whatever else you see that you like provided you meet the pre-reqs at the time. Combine Leap Attack with the Frenzied Berserker's version of Improved Power Attack and the damage gets ridiculous in a good way.

Edit: Your Rage durations are based on your Con modifier, not your Barbarian level so those durations will stay the same. Also your Improved Uncanny Dodge is based on you Barbarian level, so after a certain point it really won't matter if you're going all the way with Frenzied Berserker anyway. This class ability is nice but unless you stay with the class the entire time or go to another class/PrC that has it you will eventually outgrow its usefulness.

I don't particularly need improved uncanny dodge, just plain old uncanny dodge. I don't like things hitting me flat-footed, thats all.

Thanks for pointing out Leap Attack though. I had never heard of that feat before, and once I get it I'll be dealing an extra 9 damage for every point of penalty I take to attack bonus, until Supreme Power Attack where it goes up to 12. I never expected to find something like that in complete adventurer.

Looking at this, though, I seem to be exactly one feat short.

I require 4 feats: Power attack (good), Cleave (Good), Indimidating Rage (Okay), and Destructive Rage (Not particularly useful), In order to get the Frenzied Berserker Prestige class. This would take all my feats, but the fighter build snags me a few more.

Dreadful Wrath, Extra Rage, Leap Attack.

This all works well, but it means that I don't get Extended Rage until I reach level 9. That is going to make my character kind of sad. It will be fine at first, but as the enemies get more powerful and numerous, the number of rounds it takes to kill them, and thus the threat that I may lose Rage before they're down, goes up.


Another thing has been bothering me, but it is not particularly specific in the manuals.

For the Extra Rage and Extended Rage feats, the prerequisites specifically say Rage or Frenzy. Does this imply that their bonuses apply to your frenzy as well?

That was my point about Improved Uncanny Dodge, it's basically crap after a few levels whereas regular Uncanny Dodge is really nice all the way. Your rage lasts for a number of rounds = 3 + your newly modified Con modifier. So assuming you put a 16 into Con starting out and including the +4 Con bonus (+2 Con modifier bonus) you'll receive from Rage that makes a total of 8 rounds. Even if you only put a 14 into Con that's still 7 rounds.

As far as I can tell there has been no eratta to the Complete Warrior feat Extra Rage so it is exactly what it says it is in the book. A direct interpretation says it adds to your rages, not rages and frenzies. I actually have a player in my game who talked with his DM though about this and our DM ruled it gave you 2 extra uses of both which coincided with what I think Neverwinter Nights does. A very reasonable houserule but it's entirely up to your DM.

One question though, where are you getting Dreadful Wrath from and what does it do?

Dreadful Wrath is good if you're fighting groups.

It comes from Forgotten Realms, and you can only take it if your home domain place is Rashamen. It gives you the Frightful Presence ability under certain circumstances, including every time you make a charge attack and when you make a full attack action. The DC isn't great, only 10+half level+Charisma mod, but it will help against large packs of enemies where there is just that much higher a chance of someone rolling low. I like it because it means that once they become shaken, all my lowered armor class for Rage is negated since their attack bonuses are just as much lower. I can use it in tandem with Intimidating Rage to do lots of mean and angry fear stuff.


So right now here is my feat and class ability build by level.

Level 1, (Human) Barbarian 1: Dreadful Wrath, Extra Rage, 3 rage/day
Level 2, Barb 2: Uncanny Dodge
Level 3, Fighter 1: Cleave*, Power Attack*
Level 4, Fighter 2: Intimidating Rage*
Level 5, Fighter 3: ---
Level 6, Fighter 4: Leap Attack, Destructive Rage*
Level 7, Frz Brk 1: Frenzy 1(3?)/Day, Diehard
Level 8, Frz Brk 2: Supreme Cleave
Level 9, Frz Brk 3: Extended Rage, Frenzy 2/Day
Level 10, Frz Brk 4: Deathless Frenzy
Level 11, Frz Brk 5: Frenzy 3/day, Improved Power Attack
Level 12, Frz Brk 6: Inspire Frenzy 1/day

Thats as far ahead as I will chart for now. Some of even that may get tweaked depending on how the campaign goes.

You may want to consider trying to squeeze in Endurance and Steadfast Determination (Player's Handbook II) in if you can. You're going to have a pretty weak Will save from your class builds. At level 8 you'll still only have a +1 base will save bonus before ability scores and magic items modify it. Steadfast Determination makes you use your Con modifier instead of your Wis modifier to be added to your Will saves. The great thing is that although you're already receiving a +2 bonus to Will saves when raging, you'll get an EXTRA +2 bonus because your Con modifier improves due to rage for a total of a +4. This also gives you more room to play around with your ability scores and you can dump Wis since it will be practically worthless unless you REALLY like the Survival skill.

Nothing's worse than being a killing machine on the battlefield that can't be stopped even with 10 HP left, then failing the enemy Cleric's save versus Calm Emotions and you're level 10.....

Do the math. +2 HP per level when you begin a Rage, however you lose those HP as soon as your Rage ends. When your Rage ends at level 10 you lose 20 HP, dropping you down to -10 instantly. I saw it happen a few years ago to a Frenzied Berserker Minotaur player who didn't care about his Will save. He may have been dealing out some serious damage but it was sad yet hilarious to see him die to such a simple spell.

I'm with Moogle on this one - 2 Barb 4 Fighter is probably for the best. Barbarian hit dice and rage are nice but Fighter levels provide enough bonus feats to strongarm your way around. Plus you move up towards Weapon Specialization quickly enough, which is sexy as hell.

Looking at the build, there actually aren't enough feat slots to spare for weapon specialization. I am using a fighter for their extra feats, but Im building them to compliment their rage well. The Leap Attack setup opens the fight on a strong note, and even at level 6 it deals...

Greatsword: 2d6
Strength 16+4 (rage) +6 (Frenzy)= +8 str bonus, x1.5 for dual wielding.
Leap Attack plus normal Power attack gives +6 damage for every -1, so +30 damage on a -5. The penalty won't be to suffocating to my attack, since if I'm using a charge my enemy is likely flat footed.

In the end, this means that at level 6 I will deal 2d6+12+30 Damage. Average of 3.5+3.5+12+30=49 damage at level 6. Wow. If I roll at least 8 points of damage on my 2d6, the enemy will have to make a fortitude save to avoid death from massive damage. I'd say thats good.

There are 2 flaws I have seen with the build so far...

1) My dex is low/average and this character build seems to like using the Charge attack advantage, meaning that I will want to move first in combat. This may mean I will want to switch anything I can afford to spare for Improved Initiative to increase the chances that I will get a massive blow in at the beginning of combat.

2) I would love to use a Full Blade instead of a greatsword. I'm told there is a feat that will let me use it instead at no penalty. Does anyone know anything about that?

To respond to what you said, Moogle, I would love to throw that stuff in, but I just don't see room. I am already planning on scrapping Dreadful Wrath (a good feat, but actually contributes little to the character's fighting style) in exchange for improved initiative. If I were going solo, I would see more need for a better will save, but the group seems like its going to be on the large side (6 or more characters) and I don't think any cleric will live long enough to find the time to focus his attention on me. Although I am considering it... I have had too many characters get beaten up BADLY after making that assumption. The good news for me is that Frenzy will be dealing me subdual damage over time, so if I do get calmed I am much more likely to get knocked out than die. While thats no fun either, I am (as a player) a huge supporter of the 'live today, fight tomorrow' philosophy.

It's entirely up to you, Improved Initiative will help allow you to go first in the round and that usually helps with allowing you to pull off a charge. While Leap Attack can usually allow you to get across rough terrain that normally would deny a charge attack, there's always buildings, trees, etc. that you won't be able to Leap Attack over for a charge. It's hard to say no to the Endurance/Steadfast Determination combo listed, but if you're really aching to fit feats in it can be hard to squeeze them in and I think you made a good choice in dropping Dreadful Wrath for something more likely to come in handy.

Depending on what level you are starting out at, you could easily drop Dreadful Wrath in place of Endurance and drop Extended Rage for your Steadfast Determination since your Rages/Frenzies will last quite a long time. Either way I hope you have fun smashing the crap out of things, you'll be pretty good at it.

What manual is Steadfast Determination in? Is Endurance required for it?