The Warring States of NPF - Who Watches The Watchmen?

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Rorschach talk in the spoiler block.

As awesome as Rorschach was, I'm kind of disappointed in Moore for making his politics more sentimentalist wingnut than specifically objectivist.

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Here's one thing I never understood, though: at the end of one of the issues there's this addendum that includes a little written by young Walter Kovacs (Rorschach) in which the kid is talking about his fondness for Harry Truman and he writes something to the effect of "I think Truman was well justified for using the atomic bombs, as it ended the war and reduced everyone's suffering." So during my most recent rereading (yesterday) I picked up on that and was like, when and how did Rorschach do a complete 180 on that one? If anything his admiration for Truman would seem to correlate into an admiration for Oxymandia's position.

If you read more closely, you realize that the only reason Rorschach admires Truman is because his mother disapproved of Truman and his mother was a whore and must therefore be wrong about everything. All of Rorschach's political statements derive pretty immediately from his feelings rather than from anything like philosophy.

I've read a few interviews with Moore about Watchmen, and in one of them he described his impression of Dikto and The Question in which he described Dikto's and all Moore said was right wing and black-and white. Rorschach is Moore's response to that vague position from his own, which is left-anarchist. What makes this disappointing to me is that Objectivism is right-anarchist and talks up reason, but Moore's impression of Dikto is clearly authoritarian and sentimentalist.

It's also worth noting that Moore is fucking terrified of Rorschach fans. The guy was supposed to be creepy, like Hannibal Lecter creepy.

Well my biggest fear with Rorschach is that he's going to become a criticism of the neoconservatives / the Bush Administration and thus, his perspective will be belittled to the point that any sane member of the audience will root for Manhattan / Oxymandias.
I mean the true measure of success for this film is if 50% of all Republicans, 50% of all Democrats, and 50% of all Independents leave the theater supporting Oxymandias and the remaining 50% of all those subgroups prefer Rorschach's perspective. That's the entire goddamn point of Watchmen, it challenges your views in every imaginable way. One of my best friends in high school was a socialist who's more left-wing then Obama could possibly dream of being, and he was the one who got me into Watchmen way back when in the first place. His sell to me was, and I quote: "You're conservative, right? Well, Rorschach is basically the only 'conservative' I've ever rooted for. He kicks serious ass. Read this shit."

It's also the entire point of that whole issue of Watchmen that centers on Rorschach and the African-American social worker psychiatrist who's studying him. The idea I believe Moore and Gibbons implemented there was to basically take a guy who should be stereotypically liberal -- liberal profession, minority group that tends to vote overwhelmingly liberal, etc -- and show how Rorschach slowly bent him. By the end of that issue, the guy's writing style mirrors Rorschach's exactly. It's awesome.

And then you have Nite Owl, Rorschach's only semi-sorta friend and former partner in the story, who is basically persauded by Oxymandias to abandon Rorschach's philosophy and join him. That's what makes Watchmen so superior. It's a goddamn mindfuck every page, and yet every character somehow behaves realistically. Nite Owl works with Rorschach one moment and leaves him the next, and it's all believable.

Now, this is why I fear this movie: Watchmen is just so goddamn dense that no movie's going to get it right. And if you don't get it right, the movie becomes downright...mediocre. Like any other superhero movie, characters like Oxymandias and Rorschach may become totally flat and stereotypical. And the problem for me is, Watchmen is my goddamn favorite comic book series ever and after having read Watchmen I literally could no longer read other superhero comics because they all seemed to suck compared to Watchmen, with their one-dimensional characters and stupid cliches, and so I'd just read Watchmen again. And this movie threatens all of that. It threatens to transform Watchmen from the goddamn best ever into "just another superhero story with flashy CGI effects and flat characters." And if that happens there will be hell to pay.

CGI graphics and action sequences are not what Watchmen's about. If this movie is done right, it will be a philosophically demanding, politically challenging awesomefest of continual character development and character interaction where every 5 minutes you're left asking questions about what you believe and why you believe it and what you'd do if you were in their shoes.

Finally, in response to 01...Jigglypuff: Rorschach was supposed to be compared to Hannibal Lecter? I mean seriously? If that's true then Moore really fucking failed writing his shit, because the impression I got was that Rorschach was one of the most deliciously complex and multifaceted vigilante characters out there, who you simultaneously loved and hated at the same time, and who represented a wide cascade of viewpoints and was far too interesting and genuine to be merely characterized as an "antagonist."

I mean the irony was I've always been totally complimentary of Moore because of his ability to write someone with such different views as his own sympathetically. I mean seriously, I used Moore's treatment of Rorschach as a template for me to attempt to get into the heads of characters nothing like me. Because I thought he did a damned stellar job. Maybe he did do a great job and just didn't recognize it? Heh.

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Originally Posted by Solid Snake (Post 821872)

Finally, in response to 01...Jigglypuff: Rorschach was supposed to be compared to Hannibal Lecter? I mean seriously? If that's true then Moore really fucking failed writing his shit, because the impression I got was that Rorschach was one of the most deliciously complex and multifaceted vigilante characters out there, who you simultaneously loved and hated at the same time, and who represented a wide cascade of viewpoints and was far too interesting and genuine to be merely characterized as an "antagonist."

I've been somewhat unclear. It's not that Rorschach is like Lecter, but his creepiness is supposed to be on-par with Lecter's. When you say that you loved and hated him at the same time, that's more what Moore wanted, but when Rorschach first comes up you say "Goddamn Rorschach was awesome." So maybe some of it is Moore confusing fans' attitude towards his writing with their attitude towards Rorschach himself, or maybe he's talking about other people.

Also it's been a long time since I read that interview, I'll try to Google it up so y'all can see it firsthand, so to speak.

Well there are a lot of characters in stories who I absolutely love but wouldn't want to hang around with "in real life." Darth Vader, for example, is totally amazing as a character, but if I'm an average everyday citizen of the Star Wars universe I don't want to be anywhere near him. Magus is one of my favorite characters in videogames but if he actually existed I'd rather keep my distance from him. That phenomenon occurs not just with villains but with heroes too, to some degree.

Actually, to that extent I think my best comparison with Rorschach for the moment is actually Dr. Gregory House. If I were actually patient of House's or if a friend of mine was I'd probably hate the guy's guts, but as a character he's delightfully quirky and he generally attempts to save the world in his own unique way even though he has a rather dark view of the sin-infested, ugly and unintelligent world around him. I don't think you can truly classify those types of "antihero" characters as mere one-dimensional evil villains, they're too complex for that. But I'm not naive enough to consider Rorschach an uneqivocal "force for good." He's a complicated character who's simultaneously crazier and saner then the rest of the people in the city he resides in. Sort of comparable, albeit far less insane, then Vampire: Bloodlines Malkavians, I guess, if I can make a comparison to an LP I've been reading recently. He's extreme but there's also a lot of wisdom buried in nuggets of his writings, and he's undeniably an awesome detective.

But I think if there's one thing I really adore about Rorschach it actually doesn't happen until the ending, when he defiantly stands tall against Dr. Manhattan and accepts his fate and yells at him, with glaring eyes, to "Do It!" I mean if that doesn't just scream all kinds of badass, I don't know what does. Everyone else in the story is sucking up to Manhattan because he's all-powerful and shit but Rorschach, like Magus in Chrono Trigger, stands tall against the insurmountable odds and does not step down. I loved that.

Okay, interview. Money quote:

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Steve Ditko is completely at the other end of the political spectrum from me. I wouldn't say that I was far left in terms of Communism, but I am an anarchist, which is 180� away from Steve Ditko's position. But I have a great deal of respect for the man, and certainly respect for his artwork, and the fact that there's something about his uncompromising attitude that I have a great deal of sympathy with. It's just that the things I wouldn't compromise about or that he wouldn't compromise about are probably very different.

Earlier there's a whole bunch of promising stuff where it turns out Moore actually tried to read The Fountainhead, but clearly he didn't quite grok it since he pegs it as anti-anarchist instead of Bizzaro-anarchist.

And video interview, this one with spoilers.

Ok i under stand the creepiness of Rorschach deal he Creeped me FUCKING OUT alot but at the same time he made me see his point of view which i agreed to...and that is what truly makes Rorschach Creepy hes a crazy fucking serial killer that brakes innocent peoples' fingers till he gets what he wants and and goes out of his fucking way to scare the shit out of people not to mention he is a brilliant tactician that makes the smallest items into the best weapons. Rorschach was made to push people into the mind of a killer...and love every god damned minute of it

Post interview-reading: You just can't make someone up like Alan Moore.

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Originally Posted by Solid Snake (Post 821888)

But I think if there's one thing I really adore about Rorschach it actually doesn't happen until the ending, when he defiantly stands tall against Dr. Manhattan and accepts his fate and yells at him, with glaring eyes, to "Do It!" I mean if that doesn't just scream all kinds of badass, I don't know what does. Everyone else in the story is sucking up to Manhattan because he's all-powerful and shit but Rorschach, like Magus in Chrono Trigger, stands tall against the insurmountable odds and does not step down. I loved that.

Badass or suicidal, it's a toss-up. :p

And I don't mean "lawl that's stupid" suicidal but honestly suicidal. I think his "Never compromise" mantra is an excuse he makes for himself to spiral downward in depression and self-destruction, ultimately giving him freedom from choice when he has to compromise or die.

Just my interpretation of course. :)

Well to me that scene was positively Spartan-esque of him, hence he falls under the 'badass' factor for me.

He had a choice - renege on his philosophy and ideals, or die. But for Rorshach that wasn't a choice. He knew he couldn't take Dr. Manhattan, just like Leonidas' men couldn't take Xerxes. So be it. Once that pattern clicked onto his head, there was nothing left for him but to wonder why Dr. Manhattan hadn't killed him already yet, fuckin' hurry it up already, I haven't got all day.

At least that was my take on it. It's been a while.

I doubt that I could live up to my name if I didn't post more pics. Spoilers and stuff, so... yeah.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...isch/Rors5.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...isch/rors4.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ComicRors2.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ComicRors3.jpg

I think Rorschach is brutal, yes, but he's still a good guy. For him, the ends don't justify the means - However, evil must be punished. And America and Japan were at war, so was it justifiable in Rorschach's mind?

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At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. Another account stresses that after General Spaatz reported that Hiroshima was the only targeted city without prisoner of war (POW) camps, Washington decided to assign it highest priority

The center of the city contained several reinforced concrete buildings and lighter structures. Outside the center, the area was congested by a dense collection of small wooden workshops set among Japanese houses. A few larger industrial plants lay near the outskirts of the city. The houses were of wooden construction with tile roofs, and many of the industrial buildings also were of wood frame construction. The city as a whole was highly susceptible to fire damage.

The population of Hiroshima had reached a peak of over 381,000 earlier in the war, but prior to the atomic bombing the population had steadily decreased because of a systematic evacuation ordered by the Japanese government. At the time of the attack the population was approximately 255,000. This figure is based on the registered population used by the Japanese in computing ration quantities, and the estimates of additional workers and troops who were brought into the city may be inaccurate.

MOAR RORSCHACH!

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ComicRors1.jpg