The Warring States of NPF

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Mirai Gen 11-22-2008 04:40 PM

Evil dead people didn't. They were an Evil adventuring party who could Plane Shift, so they went to the Good place to go fight. The afterlifes are just planes of existence in the DND world, and the people that Horace Greenhilt killed just thought it'd be fun to go there.

He wouldn't go somewhere to fight for eternity, he'd be sent to a place where his soul would be devoured by the god of all horrors, or sent to be flayed and killed and tortured for fun forever, or other such horrible things.

BitVyper 11-22-2008 04:49 PM

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If he went somewhere where he could fight people for eternity, why would he leave?
I haven't actually really cared about the official cosmologies in a very long time, but as I recall, the truly irredeemably evil sorts end up in hell as petitioners being tortured by demons. I could be off on that though. Like I said; I don't usually use the official cosmologies.

Anyway, I very much doubt Belkar's death is coming up in this scene. It's not impossible, but I don't think it's likely. All in all, it's probably a figurative thing, like Mirai suggested. That's what I always figured his "death" would be anyway. If he DOES actually die, I don't think it's going to be here. I don't think anyone here can take him, honestly. Belkar is savage and tenacious as hell, and there's only two characters present who could be of any threat to him. The rest are fodder.

Aerozord 11-22-2008 07:19 PM

Two points, Belkar is still the same guy, he is just pretending to have character growth. The other point is, if I recall correctly, the prediction was "Shall breath his last breath" and although that was the official prediction he more or less said he wasn't just gonna die, but die and stay dead

BitVyper 11-22-2008 07:53 PM

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"Shall breath his last breath"
However, that quote can still be viewed the same way.

Regardless, I never said there's no way he'll die. I just think it's more likely that this is what was being referred to (there's always undeath too, which could easily fit that quote), and I think it's very unlikely that he'll die in this scene, though not impossible. Hell, knowing the Oracle, it could be that Belkar gets a ring of sustenance before the year is out.

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Belkar is still the same guy, he is just pretending to have character growth.
More specifically, he's pretending to be civilised, which is something the old Belkar would never do. He has to change as a person in order to actually accomplish this. Shojo has effectively tricked him into having character growth by getting him to pretend to have character growth. Well, we have to see how it all plays out, but assuming his little breakthrough is actually a breakthrough (and it seems to be so), that's how I would view it. That's also why I think it's really Shojo who was talking to him, because it seems like just his sort of wiliness. Although, given Belkar's experiences over the past year, it could have just been him coming to a realisation, and imagining Shojo because he actually seemed to respect the guy somewhat.

Hell, civilisation itself could be viewed as one giant charade, and it was referred to as such in that little vision too. Belkar is going to be more conscious of the fact that he's playing the game, but pretending to be civilised is pretty much exactly the same as being civilised. The specific reasons for acting within the rules and systems of society are actually pretty much the same: There are social and legal consequences if you don't. Belkar experienced this firsthand, and getting someone like him to realise that his actions have consequences is a huge step. Pretty much the biggest step, I'd say.

Now, none of that means he has MORALS, but it does seem like he's being steered toward acting within the rules.

Edit: You also must have missed the bit where the question of Belkar's identity came up.

Edit: To put it maybe a bit more clearly; Belkar's vision outright states that civilisation (no capital C) is a game. It's all pretend. And pretending to pretend is still pretending. Huh, that wasn't clear at all. Oh well.

Aerozord 11-22-2008 08:01 PM

What makes you think he wouldn't act civilized? He'd say and do anything if it meant ultimately it let him do as he liked. For example, not killing the rest of the order of the stick from day one. He has often passed up killing because ultimately it would let him do more killing.

His motivation, personality, and morals are all exactly the same. He is acting civilized because he recognizes that it is advantagious for him to do so. That is nothing new. You do not change just because you pretend to. Nor is making that choice change as that choice is still driven by the same thought process.

BitVyper 11-22-2008 08:02 PM

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What makes you think he wouldn't act civilized?
Everything he's ever done ever. Up to now, he was incapable of putting on that front. His vision made that point itself.

Aerozord 11-22-2008 08:11 PM

he wasn't incapable, he hated the idea and saw no reason to bother. The vision showed him why he should bother, so he did.

Proof that he is fully capable of doing what he is told and not killing, the entire time he had the mark. Only reason he killed the oracle was because he wasn't aware he'd violate it. He is capable of following the rules he just normally chooses not to because he sees no reason to. Now he sees a reason, and it will ultimately allow him more of his sociopathic tendencies

BitVyper 11-22-2008 08:19 PM

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he wasn't incapable, he hated the idea and saw no reason to bother.
That's the whole point. The character he was couldn't do it, largely due to his inability to accept that there are consequences for his actions. This is actually considered a big step in rehabilitating a criminal - not that I think Belkar himself will ever be THAT changed.

Again, as was stated in the comic itself; there's a huge difference between cheating at the game, and not playing the game at all.

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Proof that he is fully capable of doing what he is told and not killing, the entire time he had the mark.
That's not proof of anything. That was Belkar pretty much literally having a dagger held to his throat. He was under duress the entire time.

And if all of that isn't enough; the spell's passcode makes it pretty damn clear that this is exactly the sort of change it's supposed to bring about.

Aerozord 11-22-2008 08:41 PM

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Originally Posted by BitVyper (Post 864540)
That's the whole point. The character he was couldn't do it, largely due to his inability to accept that there are consequences for his actions.

What makes you think he couldn't? I dont recall him ever lacking the ability to accept that fact. There were no consequences for his actions early on, unless you count killing his party members. Which he didn't because he knew there would be consequences for doing so.

Solid Snake 11-23-2008 12:14 AM

Oh come on now. Prior to this revelation, Belkar had absolutely no respect for any "authority" outside of Roy, and the only reason why Belkar followed Roy was a fairly weak one, even by D+D standards. Belkar wanted a chance to kill as much stuff as he could and wreak as much destruction as possible, and the Order gave him an excuse to basically adventure around sticking his shiny daggers into bloody organs. In fact, whether Belkar was working for a good force or an evil one didn't matter to him; hence, why he so nearly betrayed his own party when granted the opportunity. There's no "bond of friendship" or "desire to protect society" that led Belkar to work with Roy in attempting to stop the Snarl and stop Xykon from exploiting it. Roy's motivation was "I have to keep Belkar here because he'll do more damage elsewhere," which is essentially true; if ever released from the Order, Belkar would probably sign up with the Linear Guild or any antagonistic force desiring his "services."

Belkar's entire personality is chaotic evil barely restrained by the sheer luck of the draw that he's working for the protagonists. (In fact, the reality that he is evil and yet still working for the protagonists only serves to prove he's chaotic...so chaotic and unpredictable, in fact, that he'd consider essentially "working for Roy.") Here Burlew is acknowledging that this personification for Belkar doesn't really work in the longterm; so long as Belkar continues on the rather shallow, one-dimensional path he's been on, there's really no acceptable explanation for him continuing to serve Roy as opposed to doing, well, whatever he wanted to. Earlier on, an acceptable explanation was simply that Belkar was (comparably) weak and he needed the XP. (He makes a big deal of XP gain in the beginning.) If Belkar ever wanted to kill everything he ever saw, he simply was "smart" enough to realize he wasn't strong enough to successfully do so. As Belkar grows in strength and experience, however, it's going to be increasingly difficult to justify him staying with the Order under any pretense.

Shojo redirecting Belkar here is a necessary and new development that essentially justifies Belkar growing as a character without actually knowing it. Shojo (or a halluncination of him, but I'd agree with anyone who believed it was actually, somehow, Shojo from the afterlife, as it sounds too much like the real deal and nothing like a persona of Belkar's) has now duped Belkar into believing that his goals would be best served functioning, at least by appearances, as a member of society.

There's just one problem with civilization. You can believe to your heart's content that you're manipulating the system or cheating discreetly, but everyone who is "playing the game" is, essentially, part of the game. What Shojo's done is forced Belkar to unwittingly become dependent on civilization. Think about it -- even tax evaders, mafia members, corrupt politicans, and shady arms dealers require civilization to thrive to make their living. Belkar the one-dimensional serial killer could simply watch the world burn and refuse to care (or actively participate in said chaos.) Belkar the manipulative, conniving usurper is going to believe he's making a mockery of "the system," all the while depending on said system to provide him the framework for his "dirty deeds."

Here's one final note: if Shojo (and now I'm referring to the real Shojo, as the MOJ system was the same for every criminal and the system worked long before his death) had actually never intended Belkar to change -- if Shojo believed it actually were possible for Belkar to remain himself -- the "evolve or die" mantra attached to the MOJ wouldn't make sense. After all, Belkar and the other criminals wouldn't be evolving. To suggest or imply that Shojo intended Belkar and the other criminals with MOJs to remain murderous psychopaths and just "pretend" to function in society is to do Shojo's characterization an immense disservice, as Shojo is not remotely evil, and even his chaotic side would never stoop so low. Shojo's goal isn't to give criminals excuses to get away with the kind of bullshit Shojo himself would never tolerate. His goal is as shady and manipulative as Shojo himself always was -- the MOJ victims are deceived through an MOJ induced "hallucination" (perhaps engineered by Shojo himself while living) to believe they can retain their independence, as this is the most effective way to actually reform them. The bottom line is Belkar's just been hosed into real character development and he's entirely oblivious to the ramifications of it. And as Belkar begins to exploit civilization, his prosperity will increasingly be tied to civilization's existence, to such an extent that he will ultimately be forced to defend it.

EDIT: One last fun metaphor!
Think of civilization as a never-ending series of poker games. Everyone's at the table, playing their decks, trying to win. Some are playing honestly and some aren't. Before, Belkar never approached the table; if the poker game and, in fact, the entire casino had been destroyed, Belkar wouldn't give a damn. In fact, he'd probably enjoy participating in said wanton destruction. The outcome of the poker games meant nothing to him; whether a particular player won or lost was irrelevant to his interests.
Now, Belkar is convinced by Shojo to join the poker game, but Shojo has told Belkar that Belkar can do so and profit immensely from it; he can cheat at the poker game, thus ensuring that he wins the vast majority of the time. Shojo tells Belkar that in doing so, Belkar can achieve his dreams discreetly, and still participate in his favored hobbies on the side.

Now, imagine someone attempts to end the poker game. Imagine someone tries to destroy the casino. Or, maybe someone just wants to take over the casino, and transform the casino into a garbage disposal site.
Suddenly, an action that otherwise wouldn't have mattered at all to Belkar is going to piss him off, as he's come to enjoy exploiting the poker game, and he doesn't want to stop winning.

Bingo! Shojo's hidden objective is achieved. Belkar is a poker (or civilization) addict! He depends on the system. He enjoys cheating at it too much. He can't function without it. He will honestly defend it with every ounce of his energy. And, though he'll always remain eccentric at best and outright evil at worst, his dependence will manifest itself in such a way as to ensure he protects society from others who would seek to destroy it. A tiny bit of cheating or undermining barely makes much a difference in the greater scheme of things, so Shojo will gladly tolerate Belkar's occasional misdeeds so long as civilization itself survives.


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