Children's rights continued
 

Well, I think at lot of people are still interested in this topic. If I'm wrong it will die any way so :P

To quote the Supreme Court again: Schools act in loco parentisis (in the stead of parents). Which many of you may no doubt resent, but, think about this. While school is "forced" on you, it is really an excellent opportunity. Without our system of required education, it would be like it was in England, a couple of centuries ago. The rich get educated, everyone else gets fucked. Read some Dickens sometime. He had it out for the caste system.
"OMG FUXOR! tehy make me go to school and wear uniforms!!!!!"
Oh you poor baby! WhatEVER are you going to do? It's for your own good that you go to school. But the issue here is uniforms. Given that the schools act as standby parents while you are there, they can tell you what to wear. If you don't like having to wear uniforms, then quit school and you can wear what you want. But good luck finding a job and supporting yourself. The only jobs you can get without even a HS diploma are at fast food places and grocery stores, jobs like that, and I can guarentee you you'll have to wear a uniform of some sort. Don't bitch about it when you do.

Beyond that, there are 2 main arguments going on here, and I disagree with BOTH. Yup. I don't see a problem with schools implementing uniforms. In some schools, especially where there are problems with gangs and stuff (stupid as it sounds people actually get into fights about colors and such) I can see how uniforms can get rid of those problems. And kids DO tease other kids for what they wear. I believe that it can solve those problems when they get out of hand. And as far as expression and whatnot, while clothes can definitely be a form of self-expression, its not the ONLY way to do it. Wear your expressive clothes when you're out of school, with your friends and stuff. In school, express yourself in other ways. I do not think uniforms inhibit socialization. It keeps you from automatically pairing yourself with someone because they look like what you want to be around. It just means you might have to talk to people a little bit. And the nerds will discover other comic book, tolkien, or video game nerds, the jocks will still find each other, etc.
OMG i ahve ot TAAAKLLL TO PPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh you poor, poor thing, what a horrible fate. <sarcasm>
On those same lines, even with uniforms, kids will still tease one another. Maybe not necessarily because of how they dress. It will be for other reasons...those that feel the need to put others down will still do so. Kids, especially kids with low self-esteem that feel the need to act out, are like that. I don't think that uniforms are good for every school, tho, just because it's seen as necessary in one doesn't mean that its good for all. What's good for you isn't necessarily good for me, it depends on a given situation.
As far as uniforms in the workplace, another point i don't think has been mentioned: in places like wal-mart, and other places that are consumer-oriented, uniforms help employees and customers identify one another. Since the Disney example is so prevalent, would YOU want to walk around hundreds of people in street clothes trying to figure out who worked there? I certainly wouldn't.
Basically tho, I think it's wrong that either side try to say all should wear them or all shouldn't. Look at the situation, and make a judgement for that school.

Can't we just say, "If you really want uniforms that badly, go to a private school"?

I mean, the public schools teach your kids, and beyond teaching in a safe environment, they don't really need to do anything else. Uniforms are just a 'something else' that costs money that instead could fund these underfunded school funding.

Just in case: Don't bother me about cutting sports or arts, because those do teach and support your kids. Uniforms are different entirely.

Seriously. I have just one thing to say to you.
I hear this all the time (as in what I'm going to say), soooooooooooooooo... "Life's hard, then you die. Hopefully afterwards it's better."

Shiny: I stated before. I'm not in school. I haven't been in school for years. The uniform thing isn't me whining, it's asking a legitimate question.

That question being: "Why? Why do we need them?"

And your condescending attitude that seems to assume that the only people who would want to ask that question are whiny teenagers that don't want to wear briches, is quite annoying.

They stop gang violence in school? Right... so someone is willing to bring a gun into the school and shoot someone, or knife them, or beat them with a bat, or do any of the other various gang-violence things that gangsters do... but they're going to stop showing their colors just because of a uniform code? You go ahead and try to enforce that. Just be sure you wear kevlar.

And, as you said, kids will always pick on each other. Uniforms don't make it any less likely to happen. Thus, they're also useless in that respect.

They don't stop socializing, they just make it a bit harder to find people to socialize with. Again, they are useless in that respect.

All they do is unify people, and why would a school need all of it's students unified? Especially when that unification is most likely going to be against the administration?

It's something 'extra'. And something that, so far, has no good reason for existing in public schools. As such, it shouldn't happen. I'm with Funny so far as that goes.

Also: Don't expect much more from me. My heart isn't in this arguement anymore... it's just my stupid pride that keeps drawing me back.

Uhh... were you talking to me? I mean, I don't understand the context of what you said. I didn't say anything like, "Oh, the school just trying to be a fascist ass making us all look alike!"

Besides, my school doesn't have uniforms, so I really don't care. People walk in with chains and skull shirts all the time, along with people wearing pajamas, plaid, who cares? You're not naked, and that's what matters.

It isn't the problem with socializing that makes the uniform such a bad idea, or at least it isn't the main part. The problem is the message it states: We have control over you, from where you are every part of the day, to what you wear, and we can and will punish you if you wear, say, or act in a way that we don't like. I'm not going to say that a school doesn't need a little bit of this, because we certainly don't want kids doing whatever they want. They need a little bit of control, but they have to be shown that there is a reason that there are limits.

Uniforms have no real reason, so to anyone dressed in a uniform in a public school, its nothing but a reminder that the establishment is in control, and can do anything they want, and you can do nothing about it. Not a very positive message, now is it?

About gangs, I see no way that a uniform would stop a gang. Gang colors and clothing are a symptom, not the disease. I remember a nice jewish kid that was labeled a crack-addicted gang member, just because he wore Jnco jeans. He wasn't he was just a nice kid. But, the presentation that showed him in that light with no real info to back it was one of the reasons that the school board voted in favor of uniforms. Gangs aren't controlled by their clothing, they'll find other ways. If anything, a uniform just camoflauges gangs, making them harder to spot.

Now, in private school and in the workplace, there is a purpose for the uniform. They are there to promote some sense of order, and so that other workers can tell each other apart. Both are businesses, so its important for them to look organized so they can sell their service and/or product. Public schools are different, in that they aren't a business, it doesn't have to look organized, it just has to be organized. Kids at school don't need to be able to tell who is another kid at school. Uniforms are pointless.

And don't give me that "its a part of life, deal with it" stuff. Yes, I'll be wearing a uniform or partake in some dress code when I am older, but that has a purpose, a purpose I can understand and agree with. Uniforms in school do nothing but drop the moral of students by showing them that they are in control of nothing, and they will be in control of nothing until they graduate and turn 18.

One last thing: I'll respect that, as a teenager, I do not have the experience or maturity of an older person. I'll respect that I'm still wrong about many things, and I try to keep my mind open so that I can grow as a person. But, when I come across someone who takes a group of people like teen-agers and bashes them into this LOL OMG "I don't know whats best for me" mold, I understand why teens like to rebel. Sure, we might not know what is going on, but neither does the rest of the world, and at least we're still trying while a bunch of people we don't know calls us idiots for anything we think of.

I take those LOL OMG comments personally, and I think you're walking the line of flaming.

okay

the uniforms arguement: work places use this to differentiate employees from non-employees. and the suit and tie thing is just tradition plain and simple. there are other uses depending in the job. for instance i work security, so if i don't wear my work outfit people are going to think i'm just a jackass who thinks he speaks for rooms to go. there are no practical purposes for them in school except to implent an elitist system that weeds out people who aren't stuck up and snobby

the required school arguement: you see if we didn't have to go to school there-in would be ur leverage against the assholes who run the schools. they want to raise our taxes? we pull our kids out and holy shit, they're loosing money, better not raise our taxes then. etc.

Funny, I wasn't talking to you. I was writing my post when you posted. I was talking to the thread starter.
Life's hard, then you die, and hopefully afterwards it's better.

Well, I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. I guess to me, it's a small price to pay. I wasnt trying to lump anyone together, just the people that no matter WHAT the rule is, they don't like it. You know? I've known quite a few people like that, who get angry at any rule that they don't happen to like. I'll be 21 in about a month, it wasn't that long ago that I was a teenager. But now, what I wore or what other kids wore at school doesn't matter. I also only tried to continue a conversation that seemed like it was still ongoing. But I guess a lot of people are tired of it, which is fine. I said this thread would die if no one was interested.
Again I am sorry if my comments were off-base.

The problem with in loco parentis is that if the principal is a complete idiot, as is the case in my last three high schools, then kids literally can't do anything about it.

Example being that at the school I graduated at, we had to wear our student IDs attached to a chunk of wool that had our school's color on it. The penalty for not wearing it was $5 for a new ID, plus detention or suspension. There were students who had allergic reactions to the lanyards, but were suspended for not wearing them.
When the students pointed out the health hazard, the principal simply told them to suck it up and take some Benadryl.

Example 2: I was given a weekend's detention for not wearing the lanyard, on the grounds that it chafed, and that I wore my ID pinned to my shirt, where it was free visible to all but the blindest of humans. I was then fined $5 for the ID card, and another $5 for another lanyard. When I began to circulate a petition to remove this requirement, I was told that if I did not stop, I would be expelled for insubordinating the teachers.

Example 3: The point of these IDs and lanyards was to promote safety, allowing students to quickly identify visitors. What the principal did not comment on was that the lanyards also marked potential targets, because it gave away to the world the fact that said student was attending school.

Example 4: The ID cards were then integrated with our lunch lines, who would no longer accept cash or check. The parent or child would have to visit the office, drop off the money, and it would be coded to their student account. Dumb? Yes.

It's not a matter of me not liking the rule for the hell of it, it's me not liking the rule because it's retarded, the execution was half-assed, and I wasn't allowed to speak my mind about it.