Actually the miracle is WATER to wine.

Blood is almost all water.

The water in blood becomes alcohol, and the alcohol content of the blood is FAR too great for anything to survive.

Dude, they came and waited on him after he rejected the devil during his ordeal in the desert.

Yes, but when beseeched by Mary, he turned water into wine for the wedding of a friend. And blood is mostly water.

...

In any case, Jesus has available to himself the full power of God Almighty. He didn't use it in his time of preaching because it wasn't in his mission, and he let the Romans kill him in order to fulfill the prophesies and cleanse mankind of its sins. If he made up his mind to do so, he could blink Mothra out of existence without even so much as a thought.

(Edit) Meh, no point. I still think Jesus is just the son of God and does not have any omnipotent powers beyond a couple mircales, but no one else does so Jesus wins.

Okay, so he leaves the realm of the living and thus he loses


He has the power to.

And when you come back the battle starts again.

He didn't try.

Not an infinite number.

Then you should define the debate terms more carefully. Concession accepted.

How am I supposed to 'define the debate terms'?

Edit - And it took Jesus hundreds of years to come back... Sure he comes back, but these battles should have time limits. That should be a rule. If self reviving takes more then a week, it should be considered a loss.

I kept my debate within the abilities he exhibited as JC... just altered the target slightly, as one may choose to use five pound telekinesis on a warrior's sword to stab them, instead of using it for something harmless like the cantrip was meant for, one may choose to use water to wine on a creature's blood.

Anyway... we now need a new fight.

it took Jesus hundreds of years to come back...

Three days. He was in the tomb for three days, then Zombie Jesus jumped up, went and showed all the apostles the holes in his hands, did a little dance, and then went up to Heaven.

And your meticulous, in-depth study of the scriptures is clearly what informs your argument.

The miracles were manifestations of his greater power. If you want proof, go find a bible somewhere -- hell, steal one from a hotel or something, the Gideons don't care.

It isn't like the Matrix, where the hero manifests a couple-odd superpowers and then that's just the utter limit of his abilities. Jesus didn't have such crappy scriptwriters.

Why am I having this argument? I don't even like Christianity.

I add this to reasons why we should just let Jesus arguments alone.

A navy guy vs. an army guy.

A navy guy vs. an army guy.

Army guy, unless the navy guy is a SEAL or a Marine.

heh, the debate rages. I'll say the same thing here that i said the time someone asked me this question.

Neither of them win, because the fight draws out Godzilla and he pwns them both. But then the JDF get's Godzilla drunk on sake and he passes out on the tokyo tower.

So in the end, no one wins. Don't tell me the JDF wins, because remember, when something dies it's bowels release...think on that.

Edit - Also, i don't know anything about this sandman death so but Discworld death likes cats so he wins by default.

What equipment can they use? Because otherwise I'll say the navy guy's an admiral and sends 20 F-18s after army guy's ass with tactical nuclear missiles.

Vile heretic! But where does Discworld Death show a preference for cats?

Seconded... unless the army guy is a ranger, then he wins anyway.

The Grim Reaper (Skeleton in a cloak with a big scythe) vs. The Angel of Death (Angel with a flaming sword).

Mort, for starters, when he saves some cats and then quits the Deathing to be a fry cook. Really, it gets referenced in just about every book in which Death is a main character.

The Grim Reaper (Skeleton in a cloak with a big scythe) vs. The Angel of Death (Angel with a flaming sword).

Well, in Preacher the Angel of Death was a big pussy, so I'll say Grim Reaper.

Also the Discworld Death was certainly in the Grim Reaper model, and I've already noted my preference for him.

Besides, angels are stuck-up pricks, the lot of them.

I agree with the general sentiment that army would win unless confronted by a marine or seal.

I can't remember the first reference, but the most obvious one is from the book, The Last Hero. That one sticks in my mind because it has the funniest illustration ever of Death playing with his cat. If i were to guess where it started i would say after shortly after the book, Reaper Man.

Edit - ah, fifthfiend has me covered. Coolness, i should really read mort some time, it's one of the few discworld books i haven't read.

Me too, good thing I downloaded it. Just finished Reaper Man, and it was great.

I feel like changing my sig now...

Jesus wins vs. Mothra.........you can't beat the Son of God, and if you did his dad would just send him back to beat the shit out of you with some Godly Might.

Grim Reaper is cooler, the Angel of Death is nowhere near as badass......

Shit, we're pretty flush with Pratchett fans tonight --

Weatherwax vs Ridcully

Cohen vs Lu-Tze
(no time powers allowed)

Auditors vs Things from the Dungeon Dimensions

[edit]

Oh yeah...

Vimes v. Vetinari

Granny Weatherwax wins because Ridcully has a soft spot for her, while she's a mean ol' crone. He'll probably surrender or something to avoid hurting her.

Lu-Tze ownz Cohen, for the simple reason that he has mastered okidoki, chopsocki and deja-fu.

No comment because I haven't read enough about the Dungeon Dimensions and their Denizens.

Kelemvor vs. Myrkul (for those of us who read Forgotten Realms)

Cloud vs. Drizzt (battle of the swordsmen/swordsdrow!)

Kelemvor because he inherited the portfolio of all three gods of death and thus can overpower Myrkul.

Cloud, because I despise Drizzt, and Cloud can summon KoR.

Yeah, but deja-fu's out (as I specified time-based powers are banned), and Cohen's extremely well schooled in Stick The Sharp End Of The Sword Where The Other Guy Doesn't Want It.

... Since I don't know if anyone'll catch the edit anyway, may as well resubmit

Vimes v Vetinari

Deja-fu is time-based? Thought it ws just a very powerful martial art. Uses all the classic "hit the pressure points and whatnot".

Hmm, tough one. Vetinari is a trained assassin... But Vimes is wise to assassins, plus, he killed a werewolf in hand-to-hand and actually managed to outmatch the Librarian in brute physical strength. I say Vimes.

Nah, it's the art of using time as a weapon.

1. Weatherwax is pretty badass (no pun intended) but i'll give this one to Ridcully, he's got more offensive spells and lots of practice.

2. This fight goes to Cohen. Lu-Tze is good, but without time powers he's nowhere near Cohen's level.

3. The Auditors. They're only weakness is sweets and the Things don't have any.

4. Ooo, this is a tough call. I'm going to assume this is a one on one fight. Ummm, i'll have to give this one to Vimes. Ventinari is probably out of practice and would be a little rusty, yes i know he was a former assassin, but Vimes is very good at dealing with them. I just read Night Watch so many examples of Vime's l33tness are still fresh in my mind.

Dante...............Cyric inherited those portfolios, but since Kelemvor beat Cyric in a swordfight before he (Kelemvor) even became the God of Death, he could still win.

would the Knights really want to hurt someone with alignment so similar to their own?

Drizzt is MUCH faster than Cloud, and he has loads of experience fighting strong, large-weapon wielding fighters and monsters, and he knows the Ghost Step technique (to use Cloud's own blade as a defense to obscure his motions with). He could just cast Darkness, since he has experience fighting in such conditions he would own Cloud even MORE that way.

The thing with Vimes and Vetinari is Vetinari's a bit quicker mentally -- he always catches the one or two things Vimes misses.

Still, I actually do have to say it goes to Vimes. He's the better straight-up fighter -- Vetinari's gift is mainly in making sure everybody agrees that he won without the fight ever actually happening.

....

I was going to suggest Vimes vs Carrot, but Vimes trumps King, there's really no way around it.

In Pratchett's world narrative causality rules, especially if narrative causality is wielding an axe.

So sue me for not keeping current with D&D.

Uh... the Knights have no stated alignment, they just come out and kick the ass of whomever Cloud wants them to...

I don't care how fast he is, Cloud can take hits from WEAPON monsters and giant mecha. A couple of scimitar blades, however enchanted, won't hurt much. And if Drizzt tries to block that sharpened surfboard he is going to die.

And we haven't even started talking about Limit Breaks yet...

For clarification I'm the one that said lightsabers are the living force. This is because they are made from force crystals. Non-Jedis could use them because the force is in all things. However, I don't know how they whould activate them because I've never seen anything that looks like an on switch on them.

I wish to add a conteneder to the death debate. That would be Zane from On a Pale Horse. He falls into the role of death when he tries to commit sucide but end up killing death, long story read the book. In the end he ends up beating the Devil and saving his love, who is supposed to be able to tip the world towards good. He has all deaths powers and cannot be killed unless he wishes it so, which is how the death before him died. Not to mention he saves a few lives even as death.

Read the Jedi Academy novels. Hell, read almost any of the later Star Wars books. Lightsabers can be powered by any type of crystal. In the Young Jedi Series, Lowbacca salvages a crystal from an old piece of equipment. One of them goes into a volcano and retrieves a crystal from there. One gets one from a Couresca Gem, which is in the atmosphere of Yavin (The big orange gas giant that Yavin 4 orbits). I have never heard of a "Force Crystal". Also Lightsabers run on a standard blaster battery. In various novels, we see a jedi draining blasters to re-charge their lightsabers. And they have on switches. Some jedi have their switches set so they can be locked into position so the blade stays on when it leaves their grip, while others have it so the button must be pressed and held to keep the lightsaber on.

AAAAGH The vile Jedi Academy novels must die!

Force Crystals are mentioned in Jedi Outcast and KOTOR, though.

Games are non-canon. Or, if you feel forced to say "YES THEY ARE!", then games come below novels. I believe the order is

1. Movies
2. Novels
3. Comics/Graphic Novels
4. Games

Since nearly everything comes before it, games might as well be non-canon.

Also in Shadows of the Empire (The book, not the game), Luke makes his own crystal from scratch.

You disappoint me, Dante......

if you haven't been keeping current with your facts, then don't make a comment.

the Knights do have alignment (Knights of the Round Table.....they were almost all good-aligned), Cloud just doesn't fight many good people/creatures.

Drizzt won't try to block that thing, he'll dodge it, then stick one of his scimitars through Cloud's head. If the first strike doesn't kill him, he'll wear him down. He's fast enough to just dodge until Cloud is too tired to move.....then start carving pieces off of him.

KotR don't have an alignment. They are just summons which attack what ever the summoner tells them to. So, they will attack and kill Drizzt.



What makes you think Cloud is slow? His sword being big would just make him faster. He's carried it around for years, he is used to it and has gone past it.

Force crystals are talked about in most of the games. I'm also pretty sure that I've heard them talked about in one of those anime things that was done on Cartoon Network. For somewhat of an idea how the games use them go here http://www.swgcenter.com/info/article.asp?ID=1877. I'm not sure how closely related the books are to Lucas Arts but the games come directly from there so I'm inclined to belive them.

Edit: Now that I think about it. A force crystal may just be a term for a crystal infused with the force. So any Jedi could pick up a crystal and infuse it with the force.

Knights of the Round have no alignment, they are a summon. They only do as ordered, then vanish again. I don't care of Drizzit is the Pope, they'll kick his ass without a thought.

And Cloud is damn fast as well. Haven't you seen the FFVII movie trailors? Plus Cloud's sword can be weilded pretty fast. I would say in a straight up fight, it would be close. And then Cloud would cast Ultima 4 times in a row, blowing Drizzit to cinders.

In any case, you haven't rebutted my point that Kelemvor, possessed of all the powers of the three dead gods, could certainly overwhelm Myrkul.

Evidence on this, please?

EDIT: And like FZ says, it doesn't matter.

Sure, as though he can dodge the guy who can hit Cactuars on a regular basis. And nobody has ever dodged an Omnislash.

he's slow compared to Drizzt, though.

Besides, Drizzt has the advantage of being under the personal protection of a Goddess (Mielikki), she won't let him die.

Drizzt knows a technique that makes him nearly untouchable by anyone who would obscure their own view (however little it is) by using a large weapon (such as Cloud's oversized butter knife).

This tells me nothing. This is equal to, "My guy is better because I say so!" In usefullness quotient. Give me examples of what he is faster then that I can relate too. I know Cloud is fast, you say your guy is fast. Is your guy faster then sound, cause Cloud is pretty damn fast...

Funny, the goddess must have been an off day when I killed Drizzt's ass in Baldur's Gate then...

What? That doesn't even make sense...

Edit: And about Force Crystals, note that in the example given, it says...

So any crystal can be a "Force Crystal" by their reckoning...

[QUOTE=Dragonsbane]he's slow compared to Drizzt, though.

Doesn't matter as long as he can chop Drizzt in half, very possible with Long Range materia, which allows you to ignore distance issues when striking. He can also use the accuracy plus materia, etc.

Quote proof, and if you're going to allow character shielding then this whole damn debate is moot.

Yeah yeah, heard this all before, then Cloud chops him in half or Summons something to kick Drizzt's ass.

EDIT: FZ, DB's talking about using the enemy's weapon as an optical shield so he can hide behind it and surprise Cloud, but it only works in VERY specific circumstances. Since Cloud holds his sword edge towards enemy, there's no optical shielding possible.

What level is Drizzt anyway? If it's a multiple of 2 (Or 4), then Cloud can just cast Lvll 2 (4) Death on him.

Drizzt was able to beat Dantrag........and that guy could strike so fast that a normal yet well-trained drow warrior (Berg'inyon) didn't even have time to draw his sword before Dantrag sliced all of the ropes and harnesses holding him onto his riding lizard, pulled the bit out of its mouth, and knocked Berg'inyon off of it.....and after Drizzt beat Dantrag he took the items that had made Dantrag so much faster, and used them to increase his own speed.

FZ, Baldur's Gate never conforms to the "real" story of the Forgotten Realms, or Drizzt would have been in two places at once (Mithral Hall and Amn......or wherever you meet him in the original BG). Same is true with most Forgotten Realms games...though that doesn't stop them from being fun

I LOVED getting to be a Bhaalspawn!:D

note, I also said Swordsman-Swordsdrow.......I meant this to be a swordfight, not "Cloud pulls out ultra-summon and kicks whatever's ass"

Omnislash, next.

Irrelevant, discounted.

Yes, that was fun.

Fine, omnislash. Beat THAT.

so, Omnislash ALWAYS hits and ALWAYS kills the target? If it does, then despite its godmodiness I'll have to admit that Cloud would win.

I'm not sure if omnislash would really count, though. It's just a sword manuever, meaning that it's something anyone as skilled with a blade as Cloud should be able to do...

Also, it doesn't always kill, DB, just does enough damage that nothing short of a minor god, I.E. one winged angel sephiroth/the weapons, stands a chance at surviving.

Yes, but Drizzt never lets himself get hit by a larger opponent, at least after he attains the level of skill he is famous for. He also would use Cloud's own focus on the technique to avoid notice himself, by finding the blind spot in Cloud's strike, moving to where he's vulnerable, and delivering a killing blow.

Any technique that powerful would leave the person performing it vulnerable for a short window of time after the strike is performed, and Drizzt is an expert at finding that spot and exploiting it.

Omnislash is a series of quick and powerful blows using a giant blade. Since Drizzt can't block Clouds swing due to it's momentum, his only option is to dodge. But Cloud can swing his big sword fast, and he has a smaller (Compared to the Buster) sword on himself to use (Advent's Children), which we can assume he is even faster with.

Cloud doesn't just swing his sword around randomly, he aims at something, focuses on it, then goes over to it and kills it. He would be looking at Drizzt the entire time.

and Drizzt can move behind Cloud's blade after a swing, use his smaller blades to stab/slice Cloud repeatedly, then jump back out of range. He can dodge Cloud's strikes......and even if Cloud can swing fast, he'll just get tired of swinging that big blade of his faster that way.

To debunk omnislash completely: We've come to the conclusion that it's merely a bunch of very fast sword slashes. It's now no better than any other completely offensive manuever, and, outside of the game mechanics of an RPG, becomes only useful in battle when you're far better than your opponent. If you aren't, going full offensive like that leaves your ass open to counter-attack after counter-attack so long as they can dodge the first one or two blows and get to one of your sides.

Also: Drizzit is fast, but so is Cloud. I doubt Drizzit could dodge everything Cloud throws at him off into infinity... and if you're going to allow Drizzit his magical items you pretty much have to allow Cloud his (materia)... other wise Drizzit's foot speed isn't going to be any faster than Cloud's.

Cloud is also preternaturally strong, and carrying around his massive sword is nothing to him. He also wouldn't get tired any faster than Drizzit.

Now, allowing Cloud his Materia isn't going to be as horrible as you all think. Again, this battle should be taking place outside of turn-based RPG mechanics. How long does it take for Cloud to summon ANYTHING. In the time he's summoning he'd get garroted, so summoning anything would just mean his death... it would merely allow him to cast lesser spells like haste, and maybe a few attack spells, and even that would be iffy for him. He'd have to somehow put enough distance between himself and Drizzit that he has time to stick his sword on his back and cast (like he does in the battle animations) without being run through.

So... now we have a choice here: Drizzit with mundane blades and no haste bracelets, or cloud with materia, but needing a bit of time to actually cast anything.

In either, I give the nod to Cloud because Drizzit would have to hit him many many many times to kill him, due to Cloud's being able to survive... well... damn near anything, while Drizzit would only be able to survive one hit, but they're far closer now.

Cloud can swing his blade for hours and not even sweat, while traveling across continents on foot. Drizzt will get tired before he does.

If Drizzt tried to get behind Cloud after a swing, Cloud could just spin around and smack Drizzt with his sword.

Spinning around takes time, and a spinning attack is a horizontal slash from a far distance, which makes it easy to predict and dodge. Even DB could dodge that. And the spin attack would break up his omnislash, which is always a particular set of attacks in a row...

Omnislash is still useless in terms of this fight.

I wasn't even refering to omnislash. It's just a series of attacks, and since this doesn't take place in an RPG turn based battle, it just shows that Cloud can do a series of attacks quickly.

But how is spinning take that much time? Cloud does his slash, so Drizzt dodges and goes behind. Drizzt is right behind Cloud, so he just goes forward and spins around while still holding his sword. Drizzt would probably have to dodge yet again, since if he went in for an attack Cloud could take it and keep going, which then Drizzt wouldn't have time to dodge it.

Well, you just explained it as Drizzit being behind him. It takes time to spin 180 degrees, and about three full steps.

It takes about one and a half steps to turn 90 degrees, and half the time, but still much longer than it would take to do a normal frontal attack.

That's where the time factor comes in.

If this isn't a turn based battle, Cloud is screwed. Against a spinning attack, Drizzt would just back up, then dart in for a strike whenever the sword is away from him.

Also, traveling for hours across the continent without breaking a sweat is a game mechanic, thus it isn't applicable here.

Isn't Cloud's sword magical, too?

I personally can turn around in less than 1/20th of a second. Of course thats because I was taught how to do it by my sensei. It requires nothing more than a quick twist of your hips allowing you to turn quickly on the balls of your feet. Cloud with his increased strength and probably greater speed would do it much faster. I assume he would know how to do this if he had any sort of fighting skill as its almost Instinctive.

and Drizzt has been trained to an even higher extent than Cloud, by the greatest warrior in a city famous for their incredible fighters, and he was able to fight that warrior (his own father) to a standstill when he was still very young. Cloud could turn, but Drizzt would turn with him, and continue slashing at him with his scimitars.....perhaps even reaching around and cutting his throat with one. Drizt has perfected a fighting style like this.......especially against foes of great strength using big weapons (common on the surface.....think of all the giants Drizzt slaughtered, with or without his friends).

[edit] Cloud wouldn't be turning like that, Sithdarth, since he would have his feet/stance set in order to deliver a stronger strike, and in order to be able to move that oversized butter-knife of his around in a quicker manner.

Cloud wins, if you ever use Omnislash on more than one person he moves so fast between the targets he looks like hes teleporting, and if we're just using it as a normal attack thats pretty damned fast.

Also, Drizzt would have to dodge every strike, since Cloud's sword would slice through his blade and him unless he manages to avoid every...single...strike.

If we're dismissing all of Cloud's abilities as game mechanics, why are we comparing RPG characters to book characters?

From now on, I'm dismissing all of Drizzity-nizzil's abilities as artistic license. The writer made up everything -- the protection of the goddess, the magic superspeed fighting, everything. In "reality" -- the same "reality" that we expect Cloud to be fighting in -- Snoop Drizzity Dogg of the West Side is just some guy with a sword. So Cloud wins.

Well, Fifth, I never mentioned the travelling around without breaking a sweat (and actually made the same point as expressed by IHMN in a more defensible manner), but when you think about it: does Aeris have the physical capability to travel around the continent while carrying hundreds of items? If not, why is she able to do it? Does she just not carry anything... and even then, is she physically capable? There's no reason there should be, and, according to the story, plenty of reason she shouldn't be able to.

And, Omnislash is a bunch of very fast attacks, that's it. If someone is making a bunch of very fast attacks at you, why can't you move, if you're equally fast? And if you dodge one, why can't you get the hell away?

In a real time fight Omnislash would be something like Sora's Ars Arcanum. Bunch of attacks very quickly... but how well does it work on a faster opponent? ...It doesn't. They move away from the target area, or move after being hit once or twice.

I personally don't think Cloud would get tired, though. Even just walking around cities with that huge ass sword, and having fought with it for god only knows how long. At least a year just from what happened in the game plus whatever came before it.

That's a really weak point.

Edit: I know you were quoting DB there. I was just explaining that I was defending the arguement, if not the point, anyway.

I wish to mention that I HATE Drizzt Do'Urden for being a whiny pussy and inspiring hordes of drow fanboys. It is my fondest desire that Artemis Entreri gives him new excretory orifices with Charon's Claw.

[/quote]Omnislash is a bunch of very fast attacks, that's it. If someone is making a bunch of very fast attacks at you, why can't you move, if you're equally fast? And if you dodge one, why can't you get the hell away?[quote]

because omnislash isn't just fast attacks? fast attacks would be quadra attack and haste, omnislash isn't. omnislash isn't really evadable either. it was mentioned before that cloud near-teleports between strikes. if cloud sweeps with his sword, drizz has to jump to get out of the way, and at that point, he can't change his direction anymore. slice ---> dead.

even then, cloud is strong enough to make tornados when he slices, can drizz do that? this is without magic. i'm not even going to mention breach attack or meteor rain, since those would be useful, but point to the fact that cloud is probably better with his sword that drizz is with his.

Yes, and Drizzit's hands move so fast that they can't be traced by a normal human's eyes, and, thanks to those leg bracelets, he moves that fast on his feet too. Artemis still fought him quite well. Speed doesn't make someone unavoidable, and that's all omnislash is. Speed and power. There's no evidence of magic for it, just speed in his movement...

Didn't I say at the end of my first post on this discussion that Cloud would win? I just believe that Drizzit would be able to leave him with some wounds in the interm.

I also think Drizzit could dodge most blows, but when it comes down to it, Cloud got stepped on by giant robots and didn't even bruise... He can afford to fuck up a few hundred times and get hit. Drizzit can't. Especially not from someone powerful enough to make tornados when he slices (also, that merely shows force, not skill).

I think it fair to say that Cloud has the most support, and as I see no significantly new arguments coming into this, its time to make a call on popularity and move on. Since the general consensus is for Cloud then I say he wins.

Now to move this along:

A good Jedi (No darkside powers like force choke) vs Bruce Willis' charcter from Unbreakable (Lets assume there is no large pools of water sitting around.) I guess the question is if the good Jedi as anyway to overcome Willis and can Willis find a way to hurt the Jedi.

Lightsaber cuts through anything... Unbreakable Bruce isn't broken, he is melted... Jedi wins.

The whole thing about the movie is he could not be hurt be anything. His absolute only weakness was water. So I say the lightsaber does nothing to him. I almost think there were a few fires in that train wreck he survived. He was called Unbreakable but really he was invincable. Also, lightsabers don't cut everything. Theres a little thing called Cortosis which is resistant to at least one swipe from a lightsaber. Lightsaber doesn't equal instant death.

Bruce and the Jedi try to kill each other. Bruce can't hit the jedi and the jedi can't hurt Bruce. Eventually the jedi realizes this and just concentrates on avoiding Bruce. Bruce gets tired and collapses of exhaustion due to not having all the 1337 jedi training. Jedi wins.

willis would obviously smack talk the jedi into coming with him into a new adventure in which a single person turned out to be the mystical and powerful "5th element". the jedi would provide comedic relief and, at times, a plot piece to describe an awesome bruce-move. if anyone asks, a jedi did it.

I know about Cortosis. It actually just caused the lightsaber beam to feedback and overload the lightsaber, shutting it off. However, I don't think Unbreakable Bruce is made of Cortosis, and I don't think he can survive a heat that parallel's the Sun, thus I think it would take him down. He survived some fires. Big hairy deal, a fire is in the 400-500 farenheight range I believe (This is a rough guess, I have nothing backing this), while a lightsaber could melt through a foot of solid metal (Not just any metal, but a futuaristic metal that is supposed to survive a blast from a blaster that does mostly heat damage) so I am guessing it is easily over 2000 degrees, or possibly 3000 degrees, farenheight. They even melt heat resistant stone without a problem.

Also the Yuuzhan Vong's Vonduum Crab Armor is ressitant to Lightsabers, but they melt through that in a few seconds too. Basically if you put a lightsaber vs anything in the Star Wars universe, it will cut through it. It even very slowly cuts through Cortosis ore, it just takes a long time as the beam constantly shuts off and has to be reactivated, only cutting a little piece at a time.

EDIT: However I really like Lucas' answer...

EDIT 2: Ahh, I'm wrong, there is 1 thing in the ENTIRE Star Wars universe a Lightsaber cannot cut through at all. It was in the book Shatterpoint, this one crazy native guy had made a weapon from an ancient crashed ship, and it was able to resist the Lightsaber and not melt.

What I got from the movie suggests that Willis' character had no limit to stamina. He lifted like 250 pounds then his kid put more on and he lifted that with no problem. Also, he fought off that killer and didn't even seem to be tired after bouncing off all those walls.

Edit: If we want to use absolute canon as a guide you must accept a lightsaber will not hurt him. It said several time he was immune to all forms of physical damage. The only thing capable of causing him death was drowning/suffocating. I guess the best way to describe it would be some form of energy aura that protected him from any harm. Of course thats not how the movie would explain it, but thats because in the movie "moive physics" rule.

It was said, it wasn't demonstrated. Nothing put against him could kill him. He could survive extreme physical damage. Was he shot into the sun? Was he taken to a factory and dipped in molten metal? Did anyone use a flamethrower on him? I could say right now, I am immune to any form of damage, but it wasn't demonstrated. He was only immune to anything that Earth could throw against him.

And even then, I could let it slide. Instead, the Jedi uses the force to hurl Unbreakable Bruce into space towards the Sun. If space itself doesn't suffocate him, he would never escape teh Core of the Sun when he got there. Jedi wins.

Maybe Yoda might have had to power to do that in his younger form, but any random jedi is not going to have enough force power to break the pull of gravity and fling someone to escape velocity.

The Jedi has his Jedi mind trick though. The question is how long can he keep it up and does it really constitute a win.

In real life your argument makes sense. In the relm of movies what is said is law so that whole statment is irrelevant. In the movie when ever something damaging happens to Bruce, once he accepts his gift because before then he acted like it hurt because he thought he was normal, it doesn't even phase him. Its just like it never happened at all.

Hmm, alright, Lightsaber is out then.

In Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force (I believe that is the book), that one clone jedi dude, who was basically an apprentice and had spent something like 1 month learning how to use the force with no prior knowledge of how to use it, was able to use the force to hurl a fleet of 6 Star Destroyers something like ten lightyears away... However, he burned himself to a crisp through the massive Force power he channeled and couldn't handle, but he did it. Thus, I think a medium strength Jedi could easily hurl Bruce with enough force to break through the atmosphere and into space...

Tell me more about this clone jedi. Was he cloned from a naturaly strong user like Luke. In which case it is easy to see how he did it. The training helps but if one doesn't have the required microscopic force things, can't spell the name, he will still burn to a crisp. Those things allow one to channel the force and if you exceed there capicty you burn to a crisp. At least this is how I see it.

Dear God, midichlorions or whatever... I hate George Lucus so much for making those up... Sometimes I think ownership of Star Wars should be taken from him and given to those that write and approve the novels, but that is another discussion for another day and another thread...

No, the whole planet used Cloning technology to continue their species instead of biological reproduction. He was I believe something like the 17th in his genetic line, but when Luke went to the planet to see if he had Force potential, the 16th and 18th versions didn't have it, only the 17th one did. Thus he didn't come from a line of Jedi or anything, he was just a random alien that had Force powers.

Then the second question is how many did he have? Of course my second statment still stands. It would seem almost logical to think of it that way. Of course intense and extened training my increase the amount you are able to channel without overloading. I guess you could think of it in terms of cpus. Every cpu is able to break the limits it was designed for; in fact the amount they are able to increases a slight bit with time. The more transitors, I forget what they are called now at the moment, the faster it goes. You can push it faster but it strains the system. So any normal Jedi could do that but would probably kill himself. Also, in the newer movies Obe Won has trouble handiling things Yoda has no trouble handling. So there is a limit to the amount of a power a Jedi can safely use and I'd bet it falls short of throwing someone into space.

This was before George Lucas and "Midichlorions" so there is no count of how many he had. This was in the good ole' days when the Force was just a power you manipulated, and through time and experience you ability to manipulate the Force got better and you were better able to control it. The Emperor, who lived I would estimate a quarter as long as Yoda (About 200-250 years), was able to conjur a Force Storm that destroyed a 16 kilometer long battleship (The Eclipse Class Star Destroyer, twice as long as a Super Star Destroyer), but that was with Dark Side power. I imagine a light side Jedi could easily hurl someone into space with a moderate level of training.

Then the question becames why do they seem to struggle with objects like they do. Even Obe Won with all his training had problems with things that required far less energy to move than throwing someone into space. The speed required to throw something into earth orbit is 25000 mph or 11100 m/s. According to KE=1/2 mv^2 this means the jedi has to generate 555000 Jolues of force. That is no small order. Nothing I have seen leads me to belive they are able to generate this on a regular basis.

Edit: That energy quoted is for a 100 kg person. Which is about 220 pounds. Its not to hard to think Willis might way close to that.

Actually, Dorsk 81 was the 81st clone. also He didn't launch them lightyears away by himself, he just channeled all the force powers from about 20 other Jedi to do it.

Also, If you've ever read Vision of the Future, you would know that if properly trained, a jedi can teleport matter. Jedi Teleports Bruce into a barrel full of water, bruce dies. Jedi Wins.

Edit: also, bruce isn't immune to pain. the jedi could just Telekinetically Bag-tag him to distract him.

That's who I was thinking of, but I don't have the book handy and it's been over a year since I read it.

Wait, I read Visions of the Future (The one with the return of "Thrawn"), when do they teleport matter?

Yeah but what level of training. You dont usually see your average Jedi doing this sorta thing. Which is the kind of Jedi I was thinking off. Also, I stipulated no water any where near the battle field because that would make it to easy.