Remember: Jorge Car'das I think his name was. He was the guy that Talon Karrde was tracking down for a version of the Camaas Document. Jorge at one point teleports a bucket from one room onto the table in front of Karrde, causing Karrde to metaphorically shit his pants.

Bruce's character does not feel pain. It was a conditioned response. He thought he was normal and faked pain from his supposed knee injury so long that he started to belive it himself. Later he realises it never really hurt nor has anything ever really hurt him.

Joruus C'aboth, now THAT is a name I remember. I forgot about him pulling that off, but he was a Jedi Master in his own right, so he is out. This is for regular Jedi Knight level Force Adepts, not Jedi Masters.

EDIT: Alright, so the Jedi cannot use Force Choke, so instead a Jedi snaps a blood vessel in his brain and kills him.

The Jedi could also use Force Lightning. I know it's usually a dark side power, but there is a Light side version that disables the targets nerves, thus paralizing them for an indefinate period of time...

Jedi gets the Win, while Bruce gets to live.

Whee.

Edit: No NO NO NO NO!
I was afraid of this happening, but IT'S NOT JORUUS C'BAOTH!

*calms self down from panic*

you're thinking of the original Thrawn Trilogy. The guy's last name was definately Car'Das. however, you get who I am talking about, so that's good.

Quick question: I never watched Unbreakable, so is Bruce Willis' character vulnerable to water, or is it just that he can be drowned?

Drowned. Water hitting him did nothing. It's basically lack of oxygen.

I think the invincible thing apllies to his insides as well. Other wise he would have had massive internal injuries form all the bashings he gets.

This lightside lighting is it a normal jedi knight power or does it require further training? Anything your average run of the mill Jedi wouldn't know is out. This sounds like a specialized move to me.

Oh, from the Hand of Thrawn Duology, that guy, I got it now. The one with the massive library of info, and that ultimate Force power...

Jedi are also catagorized by affinity. Some Jedi are just naturals at things while they suck at others. (like Corran Horn, you know him FZ) Though the Light Lightning was used by Jacen Solo, it had been used in the past by normal Jedi. A jedi might also have affinity for Light Lightning.

And it acts like an Ion Cannon. It does not damage the organs, it just shuts them down.

Yep, Corran and the Horn Affinity for Absorbing Energy and using it to increase their Force Power, but their awful, awful control Force Manipulation and lifting/moving things with the Force...

Yeah, Corran could just absorb the Kinetic Energy of the Blows that Bruce delivers, then use the added energy to make Bruce think that he's in water, thus making Bruce panic.

Corran gets the Moral win.

And Corran is just an ordinary Jedi.

Now imagine if you will what might happen if Bruce's character was found to have jedi level force pontential. Then was trained in its use by Jedi Masters. Even at Knight level he would be very formidable. At Master level pretty much none is going to stand against him. All he has to worry about is focusing his energy into negating the special force powers others try to hit him with. Just a thought, but yeah mindtricking him like that could be considered a win.

That guy may have been a normal Jedi but he wasn't an average Jedi by the sounds of it. The Jedi I was thinking of would be like a security officer on the Star Trek. He is no less in anyway than any of the main stars he just deosn't have any special out of the ordinary things to fall back on.

"This is not the boy you are looking for..."

Jedi wins.

Well the definition of an Average is the equalization of the sum of a groups parts.

there is no "average" jedi because every Jedi is unique. each has strengths and weeknesses.

As for crew members on star trek, they just have those as people to kill off. :D

*sings* There was an old lady who was an extra on star trek, I don't know why she was an extra on star trek. I guess she'll die!

well, the powers, in order of level, are stun, stasis, and stasis field. Stun is obvious. Stasis is most likely the power that was referred to. Stasis Field affects a group.

Only works on the weak minded. And by weak minded, I mean "minor characters."

'sides, Bruce Willis had some form of telepathic ability, which would probably protect him from Jedi mind tricks.

He had touch post-cog-so on, 'telepathy', as long as the Jedi stayed away he'd be ok.

I think it comes to a draw. Unless a Jedi's Force 'drains' or something, he could always Force Push Willis away whenever he got close. Then he'd try some advanced tactics, but if he can't rocket him out of the world (no real need to throw him into the sun, just outside Earth, let him float for eternity) or pull water out of the earth then its just Willis brushing off whatever he gets hit with and the Jedi keeping him at bay.

But, Willis in that move was just invinceable, not super strong or anything...just pointing it out...man did that movie blow...

I still think the tactile-telepathy could be reasonably be taken as an indicator of the mental dexterity/toughness requisite to resist Jedi Mind Tricks.

Not that I'm saying this means Willis would win, just that this particular technique would be rendered ineffective.

So, here's a suggestion:

Wolverine v. Cyclops

Discuss

depends on starting distance and which wolverine

Say... 40 yards apart. They're in, oh, Arizona, the X-jet broke down and they had to land, and they both just decide, you know what, I'm sick of that guy and his bullshit.

So, long enough that Wolvie can't strike right away, close enough that he can close the distance, and rock formations and suchlike around for them to climb up and hide behind and so on and so forth.

Willis' character was quite a bit stronger than normal. He benched like 200 lbs, which he thought was his limt. Then he asked his kid to take some off but instead the kid put like 100 more pounds on the bar. Willis then lifted that without any problem. After that they got paint cans and hung them on the bar too and he still lifted the thing with little trouble. It never stated anything specific about this aspect but I'd call that more than normal strength.

As for Wolverine and Cyclops its a toss up. If Cyclops hits Wolverine he can just keep him off balance until he finishes Wolverine off. But if Wolverine gets in striking range he has a big advantage. Plus if Wolverine was smart he would cut the goggles, or what ever, off. When this happens Cyclops' first reaction is to close his eyes which give Wolverine some extra time and a bigger advantage.

Just thought of another fight for Willi's Unbreakable character, David Dunn, that won't be so one sided. How about Wolverine v Him. This time we have some water but they start out 50 yards from it.

Edit: Oh and lets give Dunn, Willis, some weapons laying around. Like a few spears and a sword or axe or something. Lets say it is like a gladiator type fight that was setup before hand.

Cyclops would win. Non-stop full optic blast at Wolverine. Eventually he will either melt or his organs will be destroyed faster then he can recover.

Yeah, but the Jedi can still Force Push him away. I still call it a draw.

If Wolvie cuts the lenses Cyclops opens up his eyes fully, letting him take the full hit, which would disitingrate Wolvie, which is going by teen Cyclops from that highschool X-Men show, Unleashed or something like that. In that he took off his visor and just blasted Juggernaut in this sea of red (but Juggy being Juggy didn't stop). Cyclops wins unless Wolverine kills him outright, and Cyclops is too good to let him get close enough (unless he really is as wussy as the movie and shows let him on to be, in which case he tries to reason with Wolverine then dies.)

Wolverine no doubt. Willis doesnt have anything that could hurt Wolverine, so Wolvy just forces him to the water and laughs.

EDIT to go with Sithdarth's edit: Wolvy still wins, he breaks all the weapons.

I was slightly going with the movie Cyclops. When he lost his goggles he closed his eyes as soon as possible. Also do you really think Wolverine is going to be stupid enought to stand in the path of the beam as he rips the things off.

I don't know if you saw the edit but I gave Dunn/Willis a few edged weapons to help out against Wolverine. Otherwise it would have been pretty one sided. Also lets assume Dunn/Willis has had some time to prepare with the weapons. So that he is not totaly outclassed.

Yeah I saw the edit, i edited too, Wolvy still wins. Unless those things are admantium he's just gunna slash em and push him.

Also, he closed his eyes in the movies because he didn't want to kill all those people.

Actually, Cyclops' beams produce no heat. they are blasts of Kinetic energy, thus Wolvie wouldn't be able to melt.

Dunn could get a few good impales with the weapons. After he struck with the first one and it chipped on his skeleton I think he would get the hint. Wolverine can still be eviscerated and lose enough blood to die. Plus there is a vein on the inside of the leg that causes one to bleed to death in about 1/2 a second if its cut.

Wolverine got shot in the head and survived, I think he can take a few little stabs. Plus, he would never let him get close enough to his leg, although it would probably heal up before it could do anything anyway.

Remember the metal. Its right on the front of his skull. Right where he gets shot . In fact I think I remember him pulling the bullet out or it falling out as he recoverd. Plus the two fighters no nothing of each other. Wolverine would do rush right in for the kill and get shocked by the fact his claws did nothing. Dunn would have the same problem when he first hit Wolverine.

Yes Wolverine is fast but he is not dodge everything you can't ever touch me fast. He gets pretty banged up. In fact on the cage fight he takes some good shots.

The vein in his leg would bleed enough to slow him down quite a bit at the vert least. Of course all this still doesn't give either one the win. Remember it will take time for Wolverine to figure out that Dunn can only be killed by water.

Plus if Wolverine doesn't get close enough for Dunn to hurt him he can't hurt Dunn either so its a draw.

No, first he'd take out all the weapons, which would entail him clawing them apart. Then Dun couldn't hurt him, so they'd fight and fight, and pretty soon they'd get near the water and they'd both fall in, only Wolverine would get out.

Why would Wolverine even bother with the weapons while he thought Dunn was just a normal guy. By the time he realises hit Dunn could have a one in his hands and ready. (Lets assume they aren't all in one place so Wolverine can't get them all at once. Hell lets be generous and hide a Admantium Sword in the lot for Dunn to find.) Also Dunn would try his best to keep the figth away from the water. Even if they went in Dunn could hold Wolverine down with him. Of course there are ways for Wolverine and Dunn both to get away from something like that.

I wasn't even talking about Wolverine finding them, I was talking about him just slashing them down while Dunn had them. And he's faced a far greater enemy equipped with Admantium (lady Deathstrike). And in the water, Dunn would straggle and flail like a fish. Its what he did in the movies.

He struggled because he was caught in the pool cover and even then he held it together enough to grab the pole the kids thrust at him. Although he is a bit scared of water. Its just kind of an side effect of his other powers.

He didn't really beat here. In a straight up figth he would have lost. He got lucky when she got pushed into the Admantuim injectors which were then turned one filling her full of the stuff. That whole battle was one big plot device. His opponet was much better than he was he won because he was the hero.

Still, he survived most of the stuff you were saying would kill him (like when she turned him into a pincushion many times over), plus he still survived all the bad stuff.

And Dunn would really panic if he just started to fall into the water like a dead weight. Plus, didn't Wolvie have his whole skeleton implanted underwater...

He had an oxygen mask on when they did that to him.

She had little tiny claws not one good sized sword. I'm not saying just stabbing. Wolverine would have a hard time when Dunn sticks the sword in him and slices from one side to the other and pulls is inards out. Which his what I ment by evisceration.

Wait, can Admantium cut through Admantium? I thought it was unbreakable, so if unbreakable met unbreakable...

His stomach is unprotected. Dunn can stick the sword halfway through on the left side and cut all the way to the left. (Or even part of the way across.) Which would cause at least some organs to come out. If he really wanted to be evil he could quickly reach in and grab an organ or two.

Yeah, and Wolvy is slow enough the let him go into his belly. Dunn would lunge, Wolvy would easily dodge, disarm him, then get on with the fight.

Well he isn't going to take a random lunge. So what if he gets disarmed he just knocks Wolverine away next time he gets close and picks his weapon up again. I think Dunn would be good enough to keep Wolverine on his toes and he would have a pretty good grip on that weapon. He deosn't have to stick the sword in Wolverine. A good slash good do the same thing as well. Plus I haven't seen anything that suggests that Wolverine is so super fast he doesn't have to worry about someone with a little practice swinging a sword. Lets not forget Dunn was born to protect people, according to the movie, and as such was instictively a good fighter.

Yes, but Wolverine has fought much much tougher enemies, and when in the movie does Dunn become such an instinctivily great fighter? I remember him banging the baddy against the wall, not kung-fuing him.

I wasn't talking Kung-Fu. He has an istinctual knowledge of when to doge where to hit, where is opponet might move next. That sort of thing. Its like a really watered down version of jedi procon. The mainly feelings but he learns to trust them and act on them. You don't need to train in any fighting style to be a good fighter. Its not always about moves. Sometimes its about predicting your opponet and a little bit of instinct.

Well Wolverine still wins, he can catch the blade in his claws whenever Dunn lunges, and once the sword is out of the picture Dunn is too.

Going by the comic books, Wolverine'd win. He's got more than a bit of natural ability, has fought opponents more than capable of predicting his moves, and has extensive training in several styles of fighting, including training as a samurai.

Dunn has some reasonable ability, but especially in a swordfight, training'd win. He might be able to guess Wolverine's moves, but that doesn't mean he knows what to do to avoid them, and Wolverine would come at Dunn faster than Dunn could predict and respond. Again, Wolverine has had samurai training -- the guy knows from a swordfight. It'd be pretty easy for Wolverine to disarm Dunn.

In a fight between Dunn and movie Wolverine, Dunn wins, because... well, because fuck movie Wolverine.

New fight.

Omega Red (X-Men) vs. Doctor Octopus (Spiderman).

Umm... Dunn and Wolvie: EVENTUALLY Dunn would win. It'd take days... but yah. Wolverine can't hurt him, and doesn't know Dunn can be drowned. He's not going to throw him into the water, and even if he does, Wolverine can be drowned as well (and a metal skeleton makes swimming a tad difficult), so he's not going to stay in there with Dunn until he dies. Thus, with Wolverine completely unable to hurt Dunn, eventually Dunn would manage to disembowel him and win. That's pretty much any fight with Dunn and someone else... except like, super man, or goku or something.

and... I'm not sure who Omega Red is... but Doc Oct is cool, so I'm saying he wins just because of that.

Omega would easily win. his tentacles or whatever just seem to be WAY more under control than Doc Octs.besides, Doc's tentacles have been shown to be weak enough to be restrained by metal fastenings, while omega regularly shears through everything.

besides, Omega looks cooler.

oh, and by which wolvie, i meant adamantium or bone. bone wins easily, while adamantium would probably lose.

I say Omega wins, he's not just more in control of his tentacles, he's also crazy.

Omega Red could grapple Doc Ock and drain the life out of him. The reverse is not true.

But why are you immediatly assuming that Dunn is invulnerable to anything?
If I do remember well, in the movie (and it was one hell of a bad movie, unlike Sixth Sense) he is only shown surviving a car and a train crash, as well as a fight against a strong guy (which he almost loses). He never faces fire, cutting weapons or bullets, in fact, they purpousedly avoided him getting shot in that scene with his son, so as to raise doubts if he would really be left unharmed. I it is a "realistic" super-hero movie, after all.

Did you happen to see what that train wreck looked like, not to mention the fact that the villin believed Dunn would have survived a plan crash. Most plan crashes end in a lot of fire and pain. Seeing as the villin was always right I think its more than safe to assume he is not going to have to worry about those things. Besides he was thrown from a car and skidded on pavement and it only got him dirty. Which means his skin is quite immune to damage. Remember he was only faking injury after that crash so he could quite football and not lose his girlfriend. The only things that made that movie realistic are Dunn didn't know he had superpowers, there weren't like 300 other superheros, and Dunn didn't learn how to fly. Other than that it was your basic superhero story, just a very well disguised one.

I say about Doc Ock's tentacles, when he was held down be straps, they were not ordinary metal or he didn't really want to get out. On many occasions he rips threw Spidy's webs which are quite a bit stronger than steel. I think its safe to assume if Omega Red was in the same bindings he would have as much troouble. The life draining is a problem that Doc Ock probably won't be able to overcome though. (Surprisingly Japanese School Girls have yet to be mentioned. Of course I just made that statment false and I hope it doesn't lead to further discussion involving them.)

But Doc Ock is a mad scientist. A genius! He can overcome the life draining... it'd just take a little time to figure out how. Besides... the life draining is only because of those spores that he emits. It actually wouldn't be that hard for Doc Ock to develop some sort of shielding against him, and, the death spores, if they don't attack a victim will attack Omega Red's own body... yes, I did just read up on him.

I'd almost say the super human speed and strength are an advantage for Omega, but Spidey has both of those, plus his damnedable webbing... so that's nothing that Ock wouldn't be used to dealing with.

Yes, but Omega doesn't need to worry about webs, he can just (quickly) wrap his faster tentacles around Doc Ock a few times, then suck the life outta him with a devious laugh.

EDIT for krylo: How long are you letting him prepare? A shielding system would take awhile to construct and make. I thought this was a straight up meet in a room fight...

And Wolverine would probably get confused whenever they got close to water and Dunn would freak out. If I remember from the movies, he's REALLY skittish, and Wolvie would just pounce on that and throw him in or drag him in. And where is it shown that Wolverine sinks/can't swim?

Well, that doesn't really bring on any new points, he still just survived a car and a train crash (yeah, a bad one), a lot of people survive this things, and even plane crashes. The fact that he survived nearly unharmed is what made him superhuman. But that's all mostly concussion damage, the movie deliberately casted doubts wheter or not he would survive being point-blank shot, not to mention ripped by adamantium claws or slashed by lightsabers.

Doc Ock is smart, but he isn't going to invent a way to block the life draining in minutes.

Omega Red is just an insane Spiderman, but instead of webs he has two tenticles/whips.

Plus with nothing to construct it out of unless extremly sophisticated machinery is lying around...he's no Mcgyver...

Well, if you don't give him prep time, he loses to damn near anybody. He's a genius and not much else... the only reason he's got any physical power at all is because those tentacles ended up fused to his flesh.

Unless running away doesn't count as losing. He's pretty good at escaping spiderman and developing new plots to use against him.

Also: I'm of the opinion that MacGyver could beat anyone, so long as they were in a building somewhere, and not in a desert with nothing around for hundreds of miles.

Running away does count as losing, though tactical movement away doesn't.

And if Doc Ock and Omega Red went up against Japanese schoolgirls, the winner would be me and krylo. :D

How about...

MacGyver vs. Batman

They are in a building somewhere.

1. After realizing he couldn't hurt Dunn with weapons, drowning would absolutely be Wolverine's next move. Wolverine is a trained, cold-blooded killer, and a cunning one at that.

2. I'll grant as metal bones make for a shitty swimmer, but Wolverine'd just stay outside of or waist-deep in the water and hold Dunn under until he'd suffocated.

3. Wolverine has survived not a few disembowelings. The little bastard can survive just about anything.


MacGyver vs. Batman

On the one hand, Batman has many wonderful toys.

On the other hand, MacGyver can construct an entire cave's worth of wonderful toys using a pack of rubber bands and some wood glue.

...

I think it'd come down to fighting skill, where Batman has a sizable advantage.

Yah, either what Fifthfiend said or the entire universe would implode due to the sheer versatality of the two meeting in combat. Battarang? Reverse polarity super magnet made out of woodglue, a penny, and a magnet from the fridge! Reverse polarity super magnet? Bat-REVERSE reverse polarity super magnet!

So on and so forth into infinity.

Although, MacGyver does beat the snot out of quite a few punks too, and he, unlike Batman, uses a gun. I still give the nod to batman in a fight that comes down to actual violence, however...

Bruce Wayne and MacGyver counter each other over and over again, throwing out so many bat-gadgets and slapped-together weaponry that eventually the technology all fuses together and creates the Ultimate Nullifier. The two must then find a way to create an Ultimate-Nullifier Nullifier using only a Batmobile, one can of Bat Shark-Repellant, and six pounds of candyfloss.

Having saved the universe, the two heroes bond over a round of beating up punk teenagers. They then develop huge buddy-crushes on each other, and go on to travel the country in the Worst Fanfic Ever Written.

New battle! Whoever writes/wrote that horrid thing which makes me shudder to even think of, mostly because MacGyver had a mullet for awhile, vrs Jim Theis in a battle of really shitty writing! My money is on Theis.

Whoever writes/wrote that horrid thing which makes me shudder to even think of, mostly because MacGyver had a mullet for awhile, vrs Jim Theis in a battle of really shitty writing!

The readers lose.

Neo vs. Luke Skywalker, assuming that they are fighting in the Matrix, and that the Force works there.

Neo. Reality control >>>>>> personal power.

but could Neo heal a lightsabre wound before Luke sliced him into small enough pieces that he couldn't do his "mental-healing" thing and fix himself?

Neo can fly and dodge bullets if he didn't stop them. He also can somewhat see into the future. He has a serious advantage. Oh and he can pass through solid objects when he wants to.

that's true, and I suppose that since Neo has so many more powers, he wins...unless someone has a good argument for Skywalker winning?

If not...

Kain (the dragoon with the cool armor) vs. Locke ("call me Treasure Hunter!")

Kain wins, because he's a semi-evil badass and a lancer. Locke is just a "treasure hunter"

Skywalker might win with a Jedi Mind Trick combined with a lightsaber backstab.

Neo's mind is far to strong for even Yoda to do that. All his powers originate from his mind. He actually can reshape the matrix a little, passing through solid objectsand stopping bullets, but that takes a little thinking. The harder the task the longer it takes him.

Kain does have the advantage when it comes to badassitude, due to his armor and big spear...Locke couldn't rip someone's lungs out through a suit of full plate dragonesque armor (unless he was a really skilled thief, which he is, but it would be nearly impossible with Kain trying to stab him)

Dante, Skywalker might win under those circumstances, but what would stop Neo from just healing the way he healed from those bullet wounds? Unless Skywalker kept slicing him while he was trying to focus...

Kain has no badassitude. The man got brainwashed (But didn't really care) because his friend's girlfriend didn't like him, then later went back to the good side for no reason. Then after everything ends, he is still a little prick and acts angsty.

All Locke has to do is say, "Look, Rosa!" and point behind Kain. Kain will then instantly turn around to look for Rosa because he is pathetic, which then Locke will shove a dagger into his face by reaching around his head.

I find Locke to be cooler, but Kain can fly (sorta) and is an expert spearsman.........besides, just because he is pathetic about a girl doesn't mean he is pathetic in everything else.

Jumping is a completely worthless ability for a fight. So he can jump high, big deal. All he can do is up, once he is going down (And up for the most part), he has no control of what he is doing (Or very little). If Kain jumps, all Locke has to do is look up. When Kain begins to fall, just move over about 3 yards to the left and watch Kain miss, then stab him in the face when he lands (Or use magic, since Locke can do that due to Espers).


And he is pathetic about everything else... He remains angsty throughout the entire game, he's pissed because he had a dad that kicked ass, and he gets brain washed. The only reason why he was useful is because during jumps the enemies can't hit him (In these Vs. fights though, it is worthless).

Well, Kain clearly has some kind of in-air control, otherwise he'd always miss his enemies.

Kain wins the fight, but Locke eventually recovers, moves on, actually manages to get a damned girl, has some kids, and having successfully passed on his genes, settles down and enjoys his golden years. Meanwhile Kain dies alone and unloved. So Locke wins in the long term.

Locke has the ability to cast ultima twice in a round (or twice immediately, if we're removing this from RPG game mechanics) for one mp each casting (or, again, if we're removing htis from RPG game mechanics, with no strain/stamina loss from casting) and then do that repeatedly. He can also haste himself, and with the right equipment becomes completely and totally invincible.

Locke wins easily.

Fight starts: Locke casts haste, then casts ultima twice on the flying Kain. If Kain SOMEHOW survives the raw destructive force of that, Locke moves before he lands, under hasted speed, casts quick, to make himself faster yet, and then unloads more and more ultimas on Kain.

Who's the dark dragoon that's a sex machine to all the chicks?

Kain!

Damn right.
Who is the man that would risk his neck for his brother man?

Kain!

Can you dig it?
Who's the cat that won't cop out when there's danger all about?

Kain!

Right on. They say this cat is a bad mutha...shut your mouth!
I'm talking about Kain.
Then we can dig it.
He's a complicated man but no one understands him but his woman.

Kain Highwind!

Damn Straight!"

Dude, Kain's a mopey emo boy. Comparing him to Shaft is like... actually, there's no allegory for how incredibly wrong that is. Shaft shits out chunks of guys tougher than Kain.

...

You know what? There's got to be a great person to match Shaft against, but damned if I can think of one.

Shame of the movie A Low Down Dirty Shame, maybe? (Granted, he was pretty much a Shaft rip-off...)