SoM DnD
 

So, I am thinking about attempting to make a DnD campaign out of the Secret of Mana game for the SNES. I have not DMed for a good long while now and was wondering if peoples would be amenable to providing feedback on some of my ideas. I'll post what I have so far if anyone shows interest.

Is this to be run on the forum or in real life?

real life, I don't think I am quite ready for running a game on this forum.


wait, crap, did I post this in the wrong area?

Yup, I'll move it for ya though.

EDIT: Bam!

I've always liked SoM. What did you have in mind to represent the 8 spell types? As well, how do you plan to customize your fighters?

Hardcore or just based upon...
 

There are several issues you face with this (I know, as I've done some similar theoretical excercise stuff with this and other games before):

MECHANICS:
The question here is whether you're going hardcore DnD, or just taking the basic system and running with it. Are you doing 4-E or 3.X-E? Are you messing with the d20 system in general to make it do what you want, or are you working solely by the rule-books? What do you want to get from your rules? What is the basic race-benefits, traits, and penalties of being a Sprite? What categories do monsters fall under? Are rabites just renamed different-looking cats or are Buzz-bees just called "Spider Eaters" in your campaign and have the same rules? Skills? Races? Magic?

STORY:
Also, are you going direct story-copy or are you planning on making RP changes as the players do their thing? Do you want a singular titular Mana Knight, or are you willing to massage the story so it can have more descendants of the ancients? Is the Girl's part necessarily played by a girl? Does that part even need to exist? Could the "bullies" actually be part of the adventure? How tightly do you want to follow the script?

ITEMS:
This is a sub-facet of mechanics, but is worth it's own category. Do items work like DnD or like SoM? Do characters have more item slots or less than either game? Can characters make their own weapons and other items (WARNING: extremely dangerous to allow this in video-game conversions!)? What are the rules for item-creation in your world?

These are just a few questions you've seriously got to look at. I suspect you already have, and I suspect you're going with a modified d20 (if you're like me it'll be a modified 3.5 d20 - I find that usually conforms to those RPG standards better than 4E, especially in the realms of magic). I'm just curious as to how you plan on implementing the whole thing!

d20 is indeed the way to go, and 3.0/3.5. I tried 4th edition and it annoyed the crap out of me. I was also thinking of using the "grim and gritty" rules, which mainly alter the way armor works so that 1/2 of the armor bonus becomes damage reduction. A chain shirt then give +2AC and 2/- DR. It only affects armor or natural armor, not things like shields, dex bonuses etc. This partly makes combat go faster at lower levels (everyone hits stuff easier) and some of the spells from SoM specifically affect evasion (dex bonuses) or defence stat (the damage reduction from armor).

The party will be four characters, but there will not be a titular mana knight, but that may be one of the classes up for grabs. The characters will all start at the top of the waterfall with the two little bastards from the game, 'cause its just as easy to have the log drop all of them as it is one.

I was thinking standard PHB races, other than half-orc. For classes I was going to have 2 sorcerer-type spellcasters, one support and one combat, with mainly spells from the game. The problems there are: which spells are which level, and how are the spells obtained. To give some freedom of choice I was thinking that the elemental spells would be opened up when the corresponding mana seed is sealed and then having a small list of non-elemental spells to choose from each level. I was then thinking of having a fighter/barbarian class and a monk/rogue class to choose from, but I have no good ideas for those.

As for weapons, I would like to have 8 mana weapons, which are the only weapons that can be upgraded, and only through the mana orbs the party finds. Here is where I am hitting another snag, how does the upgrading work. I think it would be neat to have the first upgrade change each to a +1 weapon, but after that the abilities of each weapon change each time it is upgraded. So, say the mana sword is currently at its 4th level and it is a +1 flaming, dancing longsword which then becomes a vorpal greatsword when upgraded to level 5 ( not that it would be that progression, just as an example). Or should I allow the players to decide which ability to add whenever they level up a weapon going from a list that expands as they seal mana seeds? I like the set progression myself, which would force the players to switch up the weapons they use instead of falling into using just one weapon over the course of the whole game, but I could see how some players might chafe at that?

Anyhoo, I need to hit the hay, so if any of this did not make sense just let me know.

You could look at the Kensai class from Complete Warrior and make it so that these eight weapons can be upgraded as if the user were a Kensai if the right in-game items are found. I like the idea of a set progression though.

Just a question:

Will there be a way for fighters to do decent damage in regards to their progression level?

It does seem that in most cases, they hit a curve and can't progress further.

This
 

This one. If your going to do an SoM you need to limit - strongly - the kind of weapons your characters have access to. I'd take a serious look at the Complete Psionics for ideas on how to set up the magic and item powers. If you look at the soul knife you can get an idea for how powerful a given weapon should be without resorting to prestige classes (although the Kensai is a good option if you want). I'd say that the rusted sword aspect of the mana sword should be good and magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, but that's it, with no actual +1 bonus. Probably a short sword (1d6) with a low critical (/x2 only). After that, regardless of actual weapon size, you make it get slowly more powerful, the first upgrade perhaps becoming a +1 longsword 1d8, 19-20/x2, subsequently (mostly) better attacks with improved crits thrown in, 2d4, [19-20/x3], 1d10, 1d12, [18-20/x3], and 2d6 to cap it off. This is PURELY a sample progression, not to be taken completely, even if you like the suggestion: you need to develop your own pacing for the weapon, based on the campaign needs. You need to look a soul knife for figureing out approximately when the weapon should upgrade (each time the class gains a +1 increase, or a +1 enhancement increase, the sword should get one) so that around 20th level (if you go that high) the weapon(s) are +4 bonus with +4 total enhancements. The Mana Sword spell (pardon me if I get a few terms wrong, it's been years) at the end jumps that sucker up to +5 bonus with +5 total enhancements, and whatever special ability or material quality that can easily overcome Flammy's damage reduction.

While I generally agree that 4-E is a step down from 3.X-E (specifically 3.5), it does have some merit. For example, they now provide a radiant damage type. For the elemental spell-kind, I'd strongly recommend looking at a Wu Jen (Complete Arcane) and a Shujenga (Complete Divine). See which spells are limited to which class, and organize those five elements and the uncategorized spells into the eight (probably changing a few from one place to another). As a broad suggestion darkness spells (duh) and negative energy are generally part of (shock) Darkness (WARNING: NO UNDEAD-CREATING STUFF! NONE! NO! SIT! HEEL!), while Plant-affecting spells are the perview of Mana, light-descriptor Light, etc. As a more specific suggestion, instead of spell-slots, I'd highly recommend using the psionics system's power points (it immitates magic points exceedingly well, so you can just rename them such).

For elemental level-progression - and this would be just about the largest pain, ever - to immitate the game, I'm tempted to recommend you keep seperate XP-totals for everything. It would mean each character has a personal XP total, as well as a "magic-user: light" and "magic user: dark" totals. You'd have to chart out such things in advance. If you don't want to go this way that's MORE than understandible. I wouldn't normally even suggest such a thing, it's more to go with the flavor of the game than anything else.

For the class-progression like you're mentioning, here's one way I can see it working:
Primarily Combat Caster: take the War Mage (Complete Arcane) and set it up much like you say. It automatically gains all the spells in it's pool (it's built that way) which are mostly iterations of themselves with various energy types anyway, so that makes a good deal of sense for 'unsealing' specific elements. This makes their work (and yours) especially easy because doing so doesn't require them to memorize new spells - they just change the elemental type on their existing ones. You may with to supplement it with a few plant-based druid-assault spells, and other things like that to round out the elemental abilities. Open up their Advanced Learning ability, however, so that they can learn any spell that fits into the elemental scheme not already on their list.

Primarily Support Caster: this class is trickier, but you might want to look strongly at the druid, shujenga, and wu jen lists to find purely support-based spells (lacking any direct-attack spells at all) and categorize them based off of their elements. Using domains for guidelines is also a fantastic way to go (plant-based domains for Mana, Water for water, etc). In SoM there were exactly three spells per element, so you might want to half-make this work with a three-spells per element per spell-level. I'd strongly recommend making both classes spontaneous (like the War Mage or Spirit Shaman), allowing you and your characters to breathe easier with the massive amounts of elemental stuff floating around, it's easier to say "ok, I've only got these spells all the time" and provides a more video-game-like dynamic. For class abilities and traits, you might want to look at a beguiler or bard - be careful, however, for they are two very different classes (they only seem similar), and you'll probably want to choose one or the other as the basis and stick with it.

Fighter/Barbarian: Unearthed Arcana [other variant class abilities]: Barbarian with ranger-like archery weapon mastery and favored enemy (needs to be regulated for the game) instead of rage or Unearthed Arcana [variant class abilities] Fighter (Thug) - lacks first level feat, skills up to 4+INT, gain a few other skills - if you're looking for something different but similar to the basics. If you don't like those, you might want to try a Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior). Thematically from the game, if you're sticking to the base classes (a perfectly reasonable choice) I think a Fighter would work better - but so long as an convincing story could be worked out, I see no reason a Barbarian couldn't arise from the village as well. I'd generally recommend against a Dusk Blade or Hexblade (PH2 and Complete Warrior, respectively) as you already have two casters, and Samurai, Knight, and other such classes, while totally valid, provide wierd new rules, strengths, and weaknesses to contend with (Knights: Best BAB, d12, 2+INT skills, but only a good Will save, not fortitude? Bard-like effects that only work on the enemy? What?).

Monk/Rogue: Ninja. It has exactly what you're looking for in a combination of these. d6, 6+INT mod skills, intermediate BAB (like they both have) good reflex (rogue) and a whole slew of movement-and-stealth (including surprise strike: like a rogue's sneak attack and ki: like a monk's stuff), they use weapons (yay: stuff doesn't go to waste!) and do so in a unique way (yay:there isn't a 'clone of anyone' effect!). Highest recommendation there. If not a ninja, you might want to consider a scout (nature-and-run-oriented rogue-like) or a spell-thief (for an extra little bit of magic), although the latter is not recommended, as it provides strange new effects whose impact is hard to judge.

Regardless, what you might want to consider is limiting the upward progression of classes to 10th, but providing specific Prestige-like classes to characters who fit certain archetypes that fit with your campaign. If you do this, I very, very strongly recommend you only minorly tweak (if you do anything) existing classes, heavily limit the classes you have available, and underscore that everyone needs to take one. You might also want to set up a generic 'they went for nothing, so they get this' class to regulate the middle levels. What this allows you to do, is control their hp, attack power, and such, while making it thematically appropriate for the game. Heck, if you want, you can even just use the base progressions of the classes mentioned above and limit it at tenth level until a story point. Or, if you wanted to tie their power directly to the Mana seeds, they would be unable to progress past certain levels without the seeds (max level 2 without any seeds, 4 with only one seed, 6 with two seeds, 9 with three seeds, 11 with four seeds, 14 with five seeds, 16 with six seeds, 18 with seven seeds, and 20 with all eight seeds.

Racially: I see why you don't like half orcs (believe me, I see) but again you might want to take a strong look at world history and regulate (or at least define) races and why they work that way. For instance, in the video game, nothing is immune to sleep, making it a very potent attack. With DnD rules, however, elves and half-elves (and all undead-kind) are inherently immune. If you go with the existance of elves or half-elves (which makes good sense, considering the Girl actually has elf-ears) you might want to re-evaluate their sleep-immunity. You might want to limit the Sprite-slot in the world to Halflings or Gnomes specifically, and strongly limit their existance. Dwarves obviously exist and you know where and how they do. Also, don't be afraid to rename something or change the way it looks: suddenly a dwarf is (on average) 5" taller, ok. Or if an elf weighs in more like a half elf, and a half-elf more like a human... that's fine. Heck, if you want, suddenly kobolds - now called 'bingo-tulips' - wiegh like dwarves and look akin to pixies cross-bred with illithids... that's fine! Their wings and tentacles are suddenly wholly vestigal (tentacles that stubby couldn't really hurt a fly, and how would they get that weight off the ground anyway?) and you've created a bizarre but unforgettable encounter-creature without redesigning any stats at all. If at all possible, that's what I'd encourage: find a creative way to use existing stats and rules to make it as easy for you as possible. Further, set up your own personal Monster Manual that's identical to the regular one (or four or whatever you have) only organized by region with similar-looking creatures in each region (as the video game) but with stats for each kind. The similar-look concept could be massaged out into roughly similar appearance - they don't need to look merely like recolored variants. Think differences between dire and normal, here.

Anyway, I know this is a very large post - I'm sorry! But I hope it helps. Your suggestions make a lot of sense, and it seems like you've put some good thought into your stuff so far. Keep it up!

Again, it's up to you to figure out what needs to go where, but otherwise it sounds like you're doing good.