The Warring States of NPF - Fuhrer Obama's Death Panels Part 2: The Boys From The Beltway

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Fuhrer Obama's Death Panels Part 2: The Kids From Kenya

So, when last we met, we were talking about this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob The Mercenary

On another topic...

I just heard rumors today about the possibility of Obama reinstating the VA end-of-life planning document "Your Life, Your Choices", a 52-page pamphlet designed to help disabled veterans make decisions about their future, and supposedly, pre-plan what to do in the event they are unable to make the big decisions for themselves (including supposedly "pulling the plug"). But, of course, some high profile conservatives have once again decided to make me and others look like idiots by quaintly terming the pamphlet the "VA Death Book".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...-note-book.jpg

Some questions presented in the pamphlet are as follows. They are followed by four answers (I think). A)worth living B)worth living but just barely C)not worth living D)not sure:

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Quote:
a. I can no longer walk but get around in a wheelchair.
b. I can no longer get outside�I spend all day at home.
c. I can no longer contribute to my family's well being.
d. I am in severe pain most of the time.
e. I have severe discomfort most of the time (such as nausea, diarrhea, or shortness of breath).
f. I rely on a feeding tube to keep me alive.
g. I rely on a kidney dialysis machine to keep me alive.
h. I rely on a breathing machine to keep me alive.
i. I need someone to help take care of me all of time.
j. I can no longer control my bladder.
k. I can no longer control my bowels.
l. I live in a nursing home.
m. I can no longer think clearly-I am confused all the time.
n. I can no longer recognize family/friends
o. I can no longer talk and be understood by others.
p. My situation causes severe emotional burden for my family (such as feeling worried or stressed all the time).
q. I am a severe financial burden on my family.
r. I cannot seem to �shake the blues.�

These questions are followed by the questions below:

�If you checked "worth living, but just barely" for more than one factor, would a combination of these factors make your life "not worth living?" If so, which factors?

If you checked "not worth living," does this mean that you would rather die than be kept alive?

If you checked "can't answer now," what information or people do you need to help you decide?�

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My question is are these the questions we really need to be asking disabled veterans who just came back from war? Of course they don't want to be in a wheelchair, they don't want to be a burden to their family. But, asking if any of this is worth living through? And really, is there some way I can mail a punch to Fox News studios for portraying this as an evil plot by liberals to get veterans to end their lives sooner to save money for healthcare?

Which was followed by this assertion on my part:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Veterans questionnaire thing is to help aid in the psychological profiling and therapy of veterans in order to help them with depression therapy, not a plot to convince them to press the button on the government's patented euthanasia-machine they have them hooked up to just in case, you know, they happen to feel like killing themselves, no pressure!

I mean, seriously, people have been fighting for the right to kill themselves for years, Jack Kevorkian went to jail over it, etc. In a country where assisted suicide and euthanasia are not legal, do people really think the government is going to start forcing people to be euthanized against their will?

Also, the entire subject always makes me think of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cide_Booth.JPG

Hey, yo, guess what, something like the above where people want to die isn't legal in this country, it would take some serious leaps in logic to conclude the government is going to start doing it against people's will.

There was also some discussion on Michele Bachman's claim that the public option/government-run healthcare is unconstitutional, along with a general comment directed towards her sanity.

There were also a few comments about Libertarianism, but if at all possible I'd like to drop that subject. It makes me feel ill, and doesn't really seem connected except tangentially.

Discuss!

First, I found the full "Death Book" up on-line. So before anyone goes OMG on said book, it deserves a read. (Which I'll be doing later, as I don't have time to devote to that now.)

SWB

I'm pretty sure we're going to see the interpretation on Fox News as being "Your Life, Our Choices: How To Prepare A Living Will Which Is A Legal Contract We Are Going To Hold You To Despite Your Anguished Pleas For Life" in keeping with the argument that doctors are going to be rewarded for having patients create living wills and then following through on them, which is a gross misinterpretation of what the bill said. Rather, it was doctors would be rewarded for following through on what their patients wished (their patients' living wills), not that they would be rewarded for convincing the patients to follow through on the living wills (obviously someone who is aware enough to make the decision and communicate it to others isn't in need of the use of their living will in the first place).

I just want to be on the clear about one detail.

Considering not the seriousness of the subject, but the way it has been discussed (elsewhere, and then, commented here), and the information that rises with the issues... is this conversation still "discussion worthy"?

I mean, once we hit Death Note Parody being in context levels i just have to ask...

I don't know, the numbers of people actively watching Fox News and taking their ridiculous assertions as fact seems to be on the rise along with the amount of people being against universal healthcare, the public option, etc.. I know the arguments being made are so ludicrous that it seems beyond belief that they should need to be refuted, but people seem to be believing them anyway.

As far as this forum being "preaching to the choir" however, you may be correct. I'll let whether or not the discussion continues at an acceptable level of rational discourse be the guide as to whether or not we're done talking about it. I'm sure if it gets too "spammy" or pointless a mod can close it and we'll all be done with it.

One last question, then I promise I will be out of you guys' hair.

I heard that if we somehow did away with the billions of dollars in Medicare fraud we would be able to support every uninsured American with about $3000 per year. Adding to that the abolishment of obesity/drug/alcoholic disability payments (which I have my own reasons for disagreeing with), would that be enough?

Since when did they start paying people to drink and do drugs? o_0

I mean, I can understand disagreeing with weight disability, but then there are people who have genetic weight issues because of glandular problems. And if there's disability for alcoholism, I have a friend whose mom should totally get on that. She'd be making money hand over fist.

I also know of a person who IS abusing disability, or at least seems to be, and can say that it's not exactly making her rich. I know another person who's going blind and he and his wife are both working as much as disability will allow and are barely scraping by with them and their two infants.

To put it this way, I know from personal experience that there's waste. But what are you supposed to do about it? Deny people who may have problems after all? Defeats the purpose, ne? Do you really want Medicare to become in any way like current insurance companies, denying people coverage because it's cheaper? I'll personally stick with a bit of waste, which I'm sure is far less than how much real good is done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluestarultor (Post 963503)

I'll personally stick with a bit of waste, which I'm sure is far less than how much real good is done.

A bit of waste?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary (Post 963561)

A bit of waste?

Part of the problem with Medicare is that it was established before computers, and I'd hope that as part of the bill, this element of Medicare might see some reform to protect against fraud.

SWB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary (Post 963561)

A bit of waste?

Okay, that's admittedly a lot, but it also amounts to organized crime doing it. This wasn't just any woman. She was acting as a middleman between Medicare and a buttload of actual medical facilities. With her workload, she had a lot of places to fraudulently spread the claims between, which the average person just can't compete with. Small time abusers don't really make off with that much.

It's like working for a bank or other monetary institution. People have made fraudulent millions from dipping into rounding errors of tiny fractions of pennies. But they also have a wide theft base and facilities. A bank robber who busts in with a gun is going to get much less due to lack of those.