You think it's impossible for the update to not brick Wiis it was supposed to when it's bricking Wiis it wasn't supposed to. This does not connect for me.

This is because the hard part would be detecting whether the console had been modded or not. You would have false positives, miss some, in short: it would be very difficult. Bricking a console is straight forward and simple once you've decided to.

EDIT: I suppose my last post was a bit unintentionally snarky: I actually don't understand what he was getting at, and would like a further explination.

Depends on how they're going about it, I think. There are a lot of different mods and homebrew stuff, and the programming for each of them would be different. It wouldn't seem far fetched to me if, say, the latest version of the Homebrew channel wouldn't get your Wii bricked, but one of the first versions would.

Yes, except then we add in that some get deleted, rather than bricked. Deleting them involves not only detecting them, which happens with the ones that get bricked, and then finding specifics about their memory locations and deleting them. So, basically, they had to have decided to delete this list of mods and brick these fuckers over here. So, if this is true, two people with the same mod will always get the same effect.

Does this seem to be what is happening? I honestly don't know, as I haven't been paying attention to the reports, nor do I have a group of modder friends to ask. I doubt it is, though, for previously stated reasons.

Let me rephrase; Nintendo has released patch after patch of consistently acceptable updates that have removed custom firmware and made your console 100% wholesome again. Every patch comes with the tagline of
Then, mysteriously, this one creates huge problems of bricking modded Wiis and a smaller portion of unmodded Wiis too. Instead of reacting with some sort of apology, they delete threads and say "Well if you didn't mod it we can replace it for you at no charge."

I would like to believe that Nintendo didn't do this on purpose but I just can't bring myself to do so.

Is the portion of bricked modded really higher than the unmodded, or is it an illusion?

And then, take into account that its very possible certain mods could cause this update to brick your system without Nintendo being able to predict it. It just depends on the nature of the mod, and how the updating/system works. I also doubt this, unless its a very major modification, but I don't know enough about the Wii's inner workings to say.

The difference here being that they attempted to do something stupid, i.e., fixing the hole that let the mods in, and it backfired. This appears to have been a substantially different type of update then the one before with the goal of fixing the hole. Thus the effects of previous patches are immaterial and the added fact that it got modded and unmodded consoles strongly suggests that it was a more or less honest fuck up.

That could just be a ridiculously incompetent PR department and really stupid moderators, or whoever gives the moderators their marching orders. The hope was probably that it was a small enough problem it could be dealt with discretely which was a stupid choice because now people go all conspiracy crazy. I can see not wanting to panic people into not updating if the problem was relatively isolated and waiting until there was a fix to announce there was a problem but that wasn't really the best option.

If it is I'm more than okay with them trying to repair the damage done, but they aren't.

Yeah, I think everyone agrees that this is a dick-ish move. I say dick-ish because I understand not wanting to pay to repair the consoles of some modders (i.e. pirates), and you do sorta have to expect this kind of treatment when you mod a Nintendo console, considering their very clear stance on the subject.

But still, they're the ones that fucked up.

See, I'd understand that if it weren't for the fact that Nintendo themselves are the ones who broke them. If I mod my console, and somewhere down the road it breaks, then fine, the warranty is voided. If I mod my console and some fuck purposely breaks it, I expect said fuck to pay for it.

Now, if it was discovered that you had stolen games on your console, then they actually have legitimate action they can take.

So what's your reason for believing they did it purposefully?

You're statement is equally valid if we replace that with accidentally, though. Of course, I already said:
For that case.

Does no one really understand the laws governing proprietary software? I'm sure most of you do, you just don't like it. I am reading a lot of "innocent modders" "non-pirate modders" etc. But the fact remains, the act of modifying your console is illegal. Period. The software that runs your Wii is not your property to do with as you want.

If Nintendo is fixing all the bricked un-modded Wii's for free, I find this to be totally acceptable. But if your console got bricked because you changed it illegally, tough luck.

Also, a question for noncon. You said that just erasing everyone's homebrew while not doing anything else to their systems would act as a deterrent. How exactly would this deter people from trying it again with a different and new modification? That is like claiming that catching someone doing cocaine and just taking their cocaine away and leaving them would act as a deterrent to them doing cocaine?

I didn't know it was illegal because it's not where I come from- some of our key consumer affair laws means it can't be illegal- you can't region code stuff either.
But I found this online:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...re-illegal.ars
for anybody interested and it appears most mods are illegal in the states, in which case modders really don't have much of a case.

Actually, he said bricking the console if a mod was found would act as a deterrent.

And, deleting the software every update would be a great deterrent if people found the updates necessary, in the same way that Linux's old "hard to setup and maintain" thing is a deterrent to using it. Sure, some people don't mind spending the time to fix it when it breaks, but others won't think its worth the bother.

Failure to update the Wii Console to the latest operating standards may result in aberrant gameplay and issues in newer games. NOA/NOJ/NOE as well as all Game Development companies encourage you to update your Wii to fit within the latest operating standards.

Cause some titles don't play properly on Previous Wii Menu and NAND updates.

Edit:

Also, legal eagle paperworks:
USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital..._Copyright_Act
Europe[Parts]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...ight_Directive
Aussie-land: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austral...right_Act_1968

If there is legal bullshit you get into- these are the things that get you in trouble. [No, I'm not interested in debating it, because there have already been charges filed under these, and the defendants LOST.]

now to be fair, each trial is on a case-by-case basis and the legality of each little bit of modding and homebrew is on a case by case basis. Being able to play imported/pirated games? Those cases tend to lose.

Yes it is.

And if it isn't, it should be.

Why should I have to wait to play Monster Hunter for the Wii, this is stupid. I have every right to play it right now if it's out in Japan, so I'll just download it. That will show them a peaceful protest about removing regions in games!

Wow way to completely miss the point Nikose. It's almost majestic.

Your point was that if you buy the wii, the software on the wii should belong to you.

This is not the case, nor should it BE the case.

You are receiving constant updates to make sure the console works at its best over a prolonged period of time.

You want to do things the console is not designed to do. Let's just pick an easy one, play DVD's.

If you want to do this, you have to choose to stop receiving updates and accept that bugs are going to occur on your system.

^ See if all that was how things went, sure, anyone can go right ahead and not worry about shit.

However, then we get people who want to stay updated and risk their console each and every time through some vain feeling of "I deserve this." So you want the best of both worlds. You want to modify your console at your own discretion to do whatever you want, while at the same time receiving the updates that in other sales models you would have to pay for, which are being provided for free.

My point was that feeling you have a right to whatever you want doesn't mean you have any kind of a right to whatever you want.

Edit: you want to argue modding in any way that doesn't cost sales? fine. But do it somewhere that isn't around people in the games industry who just got laid off with console modders being a cited reason.

I think you guys are talking about different things... i thought that:

Mirai = Wii Software ("OS" Software)

Nikose = Wii games (software)

Honestly Nikose everything you just said is so ri-goddamn-diculous I don't even know how to reply.

Like this
Well I guess just because I feel like I own my Wii and the operating system it comes with, it doesn't necessarily mean I actually own either! I have been defeated!

Look if Nintendo wants to seal up the software loopholes that allow homebrew modding and patch over custom firmware, hey more power to them. But I'm going to quote Bit here.
When they sell it to you, it is no longer Nintendo's property, it is yours. As a company they have a right to try to counteract piracy by denying goods and services but the moment they instead attack your console and force you to buy a new one or get it repaired we can officially call that a 'dick move.'

And NO, I am not saying you should be able to steal games.
I'm terribly sorry you are a member of the message board carrying this conversation. It is so tragic that I knew this fact and came into the thread with my viewpoint shamelessly teabagging your hurt feelings.

Seriously 'console modders' made me lose my job? I'm sorry? Did I miss something?

He works games testing.
Shitty economy causes people to become exceedingly greedy, causing them to steal* games.
Shitty sales due to that leads to smaller developers going belly-up, causing only big developers/publishers with in-house testers to develop/publish games.
Nikose gets laid off from work because there isn't as much.


* Read "pirate". I'm mostly paraphrasing what he told me.

Nope!
The physical unit is yours, sure. You have every right to change whatever you want on that.
However, the intellectual property is theirs, and that includes the purpose and function of the unit. If you change that, Nintendo (or whatever company actually) has every right to correct that, however they see fit.

EDIT: I'm not agreeing or disagreeing on whether or not that is a dick move, but they have every right to protect their property.

I don't think intellectual property means what you think it does. Nor does ownership laws, or 'purpose and function.'

Perhaps I'm using the wrong words.
I've heard this explained to me in Dutch, so forgive me for that.

My point is, you (purchaser) own the machine, the individual unit; Nintendo owns the idea behind the machine.
You can change the machine all you want, but as soon as you change the idea - it's function -, Nintendo has the right to step in if they feel it is negatively affecting them.

Sweet, sweet jeebus! Are we STILL trying to figure out who's dick is bigger?

I'm not exactly sure that would fit but i see what you're trying to say...

Although i think that is more about Copyright than modding... no?

Perhaps?
I don't know. A friend and I were talking about this, and this is kinda how it got explained to me.

Yo, go read the links I posted and Nikose put up.
The law, at least in the USA, is not working this way.
I mean we can argue whether it should (and it does in some places) but currentely it does not.

Way to grasp at straws there.

That's cool, but kind of a strange reply to my post, as I wasn't advocating not updating your Wii. EDIT2: Ah, I see. "if the user's found them necessary". I only said that because I wasn't sure if people in general did or not. If they are, its a good deterrent. If not, its...not.

I'm going to assume the edit was directed elsewhere, because I've certainly not advocated modding your Wii. (though, I don't see a moral problem with it unless you're doing it to pirate games. But not everyone who mods does that)

They didn't do this. EDIT: No, really.

"attacking the console" is a Broad term but not without foundation... there is no excuse for any measure a company takes that hurts paying costumers that didn't do nothing wrong.

Mirai, Noncon, and myself are more likely taking this position coming from the DRM in games and such... albeit, not the same case, but a similar notion.

For instance, i'm actually aware of individuals who purchase Steam games but crack them, so they can play their games also offline. Although that was quite some time ago, and since i never had steam in my PC i'm not sure if you still can only play while connected to the web.

They are still modding code, but they are not necessarily without a case. They believe that as honest costumers who purchase the product, steam has no right to block their account or sue them or anything just because they want to play their steam games while not connected to the web.

I'm not sure if you can make my point out of all of this... but i think the general idea is clear.

Okay 'accidentally damaged and refused to pay for' your console.
Civil matter? I'm guessing that's lingo for 'civil crime'?

EDIT: Okay I can at least apologize for not recognizing that it is technically illegal but I had thought that running unsigned code to play modified games was the actual crime, not just running unsigned code.

But, again, it shouldn't be.