I'm developing fire gauntlets (gauntlets that can be engulfed in flames for extended periods of time) and we are going to spar with them on, we've already tried using leather gloves but those overheat in around 25-30sec even in frigid weather.

Lev, will you ever stop being awesome?

This is one of the coolest ideas I've heard all week and I really want to see this in action.

Three or four more rounds of reflexively lashing out out like this and you'll finally be ready to admit that you're a fan of terrible things with no justification. http://www.nuklearforums.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

It's pretty much the same thing that happened in every sphere of life, with the replacement of outright violence and oppressions with more subtle forms. Cause we civilised.

First I need to video the swordchucks, there's a good chance it'll happen this sunday as I made some connections last week for the camera and have some strings I can pull now.

http://www.labsafety.com/images/xl/A...i_LB23488Z.jpg

This is about what the gloves will look like, the main use will be making ridiculous firetools usable as may I remind you, swordchucks burn your hands just by using them at the moment.

Yes, the fire gauntlets idea is pretty awesome.

The fire gauntlets should also have the broken glass from real Muay Thai kickboxing, that would be sweet.

If you do try it out, Lev, film and put it on the internet so we can watch, please.

And when you do, please include some moves from Devil May Cry.

The devil may cry because he doesn't have fire gauntlets.

He just has crummy old fire hands.

Cool.

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished Swordchucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg73rOFgsHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjE4bC4Clcg

That made my night awesome. Fancy foot work is nothing compared to a punch to the face.

It's usually the other way around. At least, in my experience it's 90% the other way around. Coincidentally the same reason why no one takes martial arts seriously, instead thinking that good old street toughness will win the day. What an incredible amount of people forget or just don't do when they learn martial arts is they don't ask two important questions of their teachers: What's the cultural context this was developed in? Tactically, why am I doing this technique this way?

So that video, capoeira vs some dude is a shining example of this:

Capoeira was developped by Brazilian slaves. They had to hide their training as a form of dance, and they had to be able to fight with their hands shackled. Hence the dancing, it hides what he's trying to do. That guy got beat down because he 1) Drills too much, 2) Fights only his system too much. If he asked the two questions above, how you apply technique radically changes. I bet if you asked him "why were you doing it that way" he'd say "Because that's what's supposed to happen." Some martial arts (Muay Thai, Sambo, Savate) leave their cultural context very well, while others just get murdered outside of that cultural context because they've been adapted and refined to be so specific.

The problem is largely that everyone who thinks they have good old street toughness doesn't actually know how to throw a punch that's worth a damn. Or target, for that matter.

The main issue is that humans are adaptive creatures, and teach how to adapt.

At least, they teach their theorycraft on how THEY adapted to THEIR surroundings.
Personally I'm not that interested in capoeira as I already hide 90% of my martial art (being an internal martial artist-- not that capoeira actually fools anyone) and I'm not interested in being flashy.
What happened there, was one guy gave a huge lead up, the other guy just used insight to picture how it was going to play out, put a large amount of linear force in, and the other guy smacked his own head against his fist hard enough to KO him.
It's not special, it's not especially skillful, it's just simplifying the issue down to basic principle-- most of martial arts are how you think about them and how you react. Also, moving into another player's square invokes an attack of opportunity.

But seriously, belts are for people who's pants don't fit.

Yeah, as a guy who went through years of Tae Kwon Do, I have to say that most of it isn't practical for normal use, but they never tell you that. 90% of it really is only good situationally and there was no instruction that I ever got on when to actually use it. Granted, I figured it out on my own, but then I also began pulling from pretty much everything I saw, so comparing what I do to Tae Kwon Do would be like trying to compare milk to a muffin. Pretty sure there's some milk in there, but I'm also pretty sure some of it was lost in the process and there's bits of all sorts of other stuff along with it.

In some ways, as much as the martial arts community I was introduced to showed a disdain towards it, mixed martial arts is the most effective road for actually defending yourself.

I don't know if I should feel good or bad about that.

I disagree as the art has been formulated specifically for intercepting and disabling an opponent, not strictly defensive.

I would agree however that compared to other styles it's probably the best for defending a larger range, like if someone tries to steal your bike 10feet away or your ladyfriend's purse.

If you've let getting some sort of physical trophy or some reward get in the way of your motivation and clarity of actually learning your martial art, then you might want to feel bad. Rewarding people like that just gives people a reason to concentrate less.

WOO A BLACK BELT. I AM DONE!

Well I guess I should feel good then seeing as I never let the fact that the only belt I earned in a month or two back in 8th grade was yellow belt stop me from studying it every now and then. Which was the highest the course went though the instructor offered if we wanted to continue at his dojo (for a fee of course) with the rest of his students.

I'd say parkour is more effective for self defense. Unless you happen to be Wong Fei Hung, it will save you in more situations than fighting ability will. Of course, it's not like you can't have grounding in both, and in situations where your goal is something beyond "don't get shanked," running away ability becomes less useful.

Such as:

As for this, I'm of the opinion that belts exist to sell belt exams.

I use to think they where just a way of showing rank or level of skill in Martial Arts.

It depends on the school, but I wouldn't take them as an indicator of skill for the most part. My non-snarky feeling about belt colours is that there's so many in a lot of schools that they become worthless as individual markers of achievement, which defeats the whole purpose.

Edit: Not that a person shouldn't take any pride as they get better, just that I think there's more to be proud of with an achievement when it's something you have to really work for.

If you don't want to get hurt, Run Fu is the most effective way to do it.

If running isn't an option then it don't really matter what system you practice as long as you know 1) how to apply the techniques in a non-sporting context and 2) you've actually trained in the mindset that you are trying to hurt/maim/kill the person you're hitting. MMA is really useful if going to ground is a totally viable option, the eyes/throat/crotch are not valid targets, and small joint manipulations aren't "allowed." Of course at this point you're likely noticing that those conditions are ridiculous. And, by the way, MMA as it's commonly taught is a sport hybrid of Muay Thai, Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo. In my experience, going to ground is the worst possible thing that you can ever do in a real life situation. You don't know who they are, you don't know what they know and you don't know if they have any weapons on them. Why would you put yourself in a situation where you can't see their hands? Furthermore, those areas are the fastest ways to either "defuse" someone or at the very least decrease their ability to cause you harm.

My Krav Maga instructor works on the side as a bouncer at the bar with the highest knife crime rate in Canada. I occasionally work at a bar in Saskatoon when they need extra bodies on their teams for busy night. We're both students, so we'll both take the convenient jobs when we can get them, hence the bouncing. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen someone in a TapouT shirt think that he knows how to roll take a swing at him only to be completely amazed when he ducks off to the the side and full on slaps them in the throat. The slap isn't a manly attack, right? And the throat isn't fair, right?

One of my friends is from Montreal and has practiced Savate since he was 6. One night when we were working I remember some guy telling him to back off and let him and his buds enjoy their drinks, otherwise he was going to give him "real trouble." As I'm walking over I see this guy take a swing at my buddy who calmly ranges out and does (what I call) a piston to this guy's hip. Seeing him on one leg, this guy tries to "shoot" at my buddy and get him to ground, thinking he's GSP or something. As a response he just flips his hips and unloads a high kick right into this guy's eyes and drops him like a ton of bricks. Commence screaming, tackling by multiple bouncers and the usual removal. Boom, 230+ MMA-wannabe put on the ground by a 160 (maybe) Frenchman.

I've seen guys break out Aikido, Krav Maga, Savate, even a Wing Chun guy at varying degrees of effectiveness. There's no real "best" martial art. Whoever is the best trained is probably the guy who's going to "win" is the reality of it. Note: Best does not mean most. Mindset is an important part of this. If you're trying to "win" you're going to get wrecked by the guy who is trying to survive.

So...practice running first. Then find what works for you.

Now Krav Maga is something I can really respect, GREAT example of a martial art who's design was based on a contemporary and very valid scenario/environment.

Also, fyi Wing Chun is just bastardized tai chi meant for rapid absorption as it would take 10 times longer to learn properly and you probably would spend 10 times longer looking for a good tai chi teacher than a good wing chun teacher ;]

The most effective form of defendign yourself is being Bruce Lee.

Even better if they even get that far they're going to be pretty dissapointed.
 

Six feet of solid earth between you and your attacker is a sure deterrent to even the most tenacious of people.

I've heard good reviews of giving yourselves rabies.

Having six german shepherds with you at all times works pretty well too. I've never known a man surrounded by loyal german shepherds to lose a fight.

Edit: In fact, maybe I'll make that my superhero gimmick - I'll be like Squirrel Girl, but with big dogs instead. I'll call myself Justice Hound. My motto will be "I've got a bone to pick with crime."

I agree with all of this. On the other hand, part of what I was referring to was the type of place that skips out on the "honor" bits of things. I mean, there's definitely a time and place for that, but in my experience, the things that traditional martial arts get right are:

1. Telling you not to be stupid and fight unnecessarily and
2. Telling you to use only necessary force

while the things they get wrong include:

1. Failing to take into account that at some point, you're going to have to fight dirty and
2. Failing to take into account that a real opponent probably WILL fight dirty.

While the things they get right are admirable, the things they get wrong are dangerous. That's why I ended up getting disillusioned with traditional instruction, because I had the misfortune of learning the latter two the hard way through literally no fault of my own, and when I asked my teacher how I might prevent that particular kind of beatdown from happening again, he couldn't, or wouldn't, give me an answer and I ended up never talking about it to anyone else because I was scared shitless of it happening again until I was actually pulled into the office for clocking someone a year later.

When it finally came out, it shocked the hell out of the police liaison officer and my mom ended up threatening legal action. By that point, at roughly ten years old, I'd already basically thrown honor out the window.

I can't speak for everything, but I know from experience that Shinkage ryu kenjutsu deals specifically with number 2. Especially when it comes to tanto and fan stuff. Granted, a lot of that isn't really applicable anymore, but it is there. What little I know of some softer styles seems to address it as well, probably because there's more opportunity for nastier things when you're grappling.

Another thing to consider is that for stuff that was actually being used, students were probably picking up that sort of thing from experience since they weren't necessarily spending twenty years training or fighting in the ring without ever taking it into battle. Probably part of the reason it's not built into a lot of systems is because in times of war, you might be learning it for real before you'd even built a strong foundation, and in times of peace it's easier to have the idea that everyone will fight by the book.

That's just speculation though.

Well, for reference, Tae Kwon Do is pretty heavily strike-based, and it's damn good at it. A well-placed kick can literally launch your opponent. That's not to say there's no grappling whatsoever, in fact, there are plenty of throws, too, but there aren't really very many holds that I'm aware of, and the ones I am are generally joint locks that you're supposed to turn offensive. Basically, holding isn't the focus here.

...I had a point in there somewhere. :ohdear:

At any rate, the only experience I have is with that in my own formal training and what I picked up through observation, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My experience would not surprise me if it were plain just shitty given the studio I went to for much of it.

When I said "that sort of thing," I meant dirty fighting, not grappling.

Yeah, I'm honestly not quite sure what I was thinking there... :sweatdrop

Oh look, it's that clip from Never Back Down that always comes up when people want to talk shit about Capoeira!

Oh what, you don't remember that movie that really wanted to be the Karate Kid for MMA? oh, well that's probably because it sucked so hard

That's.... not true at all, At best, it's "Capoeira Cliff notes for dummies"

1: Secret Slave dance for hiding your fighting style:Capoeira originated as an amalgamation of various different African martial arts styles and philosophies . Unlike America, which prevented slaves from doing anything relating to their culture for fear of them doing things in secret, Brazil let each seperate tribe and nation keep their culture in the hope that it would create gaps between them and prevent them from cooperating to revolt. The idea being that if they kept to their old culture, they would remember the rivalries that their tribes had, and always be at each other's throat.

( America instead kept the light-skinned slaves in the house doing nice jobs to breed color-based discontent)

The slaves responded by saying "Lol, chattell slavery, you're more enemy than them" and formed the old form of capoeira, Which is, based on what we know, since people weren't researching their slaves like that back then, was less of a ritual with a full heritage and customs, and more of a fight breaking out in the yard and someone just happened to have a drum nearby and started playing it 'cause everybody had drums, or a combat sport that had drums, cause again, Drums all over the place.

Cut ahead to these slaves learning how to fight, and, when they weren't breaking out of captivity, KILLING each other in stupid fights amonst each other, wasting a good slave( who was so good because of all the capoeira training making him tough enough to cut sugarcane all day). This convinced the Brazilian government to outlaw Capoeira and similar artforms( not sure, but I think this may have been the reason behind Candomble's renaming of the Orishas after Catholic Saints)

People didn't practice Capoeira "Secretly out in the open but all crafty-like by pretending it was a dance" in these times, but instead just did it hidden in corners and backalleys. This was probably the period in which the birimbau came into play, being a more mobile instrument than an atabaque drum. The current toque used to signify "Okay, mestre says we're done playing now, come back to the mouth of the Circle" is actually the "OH FUCK! COPS! SCATTTER!" rythm.

During the post-abolition periods, Capoeira was still illegal, and practiced largely by criminals in the slums. It was still practiced secretly by said criminals. Without any REAL training methodologies, it was pretty simplistic and "dirty" keeping in with the old "Master's gonna come in and rape my wife, no rules or honor here" Malicia mindset carried over from the old slavery days.

Mestre Bimba was disgusted by the unrefined artform exhibited by these criminals, as well as being displeased with having to live like a criminal and thus created what your average layperson perceives to be Capoeira, which he called Regional, and began teaching in a school under this false name. He greatly changed the art form, to be more in line with Asian martial arts, adding in more upright movments and spectacular flips, and created a rudmentary scarf-based ranking system that would evlove into the modern chord system.

Alongside this was a resurgence in a style considered closer to the roots: Angola, which was lower to the ground, had no ranking system, was mostly about precision and deception, and came into being aongside Regional due to the efforts of Mestre Pastinha.

Bimba presented his Regional style to the president of Brazil, who just so happened to be on a fitness kick for his country, and thus Capoeira(Regional) was de-criminalized

Edit: in 1937 it was legal to practice in certain sanctioned places, but Bimba got his official recognition in 1937 but had formed his school in 1932


2: No hands cause slaves had handcuffs

1: Cuffed slaves would most likely have had ankle cuffs as well as handcuffs

2: Capoeira just wouldn't work without hands

One of the first things I was taught in Capoeira was "Never let your ass touch the ground" Head, Hands, Feet? Yes, but never your torso or body. Why? Using your hands, feet, and head, keeps your body always in your control whilst moving, being on your back or ass doesn't. About 97% of all movments in capoeira couldn't be done without using one's hands either as a point of balance, a counter-balance, a momentum generating-tool, a means of distraction, leverage for takedowns, a hand to hold a knife in Navalha games, elbows for... elbow strikes, hands for.. punches and slaps, a guard when initiating headbutts( looove headbutts) a means of trapping or re-directing strikes(not a lot of trapping, or, at the very least, "Cup the strike, move in with a take-down" two-millisecond traps) or pretty much anything

3:DrillsGood capoeira training is

1: physical fitness training
2: a bit of technique
3: TIME TO GET IN THERE AND TRY NOT TO DIE!
4: WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?
5: KEEP MOVING DUMB-ASS!
6: See, now you got kicked in the nuts, and knocked on your ass. Stand up, walk around, shake hands, now get out, don't get mad, just go sit over there and let the people who know what they're doing play

Very few "Drills". Mestre Bimba Created Nine Sequences to be done by pairs of people, but that's it, and those are sporadiclly done in general

Oh yah, it definitely was the cliff notes, courtesy of sporadic conversation. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about it. It's not exactly something I run into a lot in Saskatchewan.

Some day I think it would be interesting to spar with someone who practices Capoeira, just because I'm curious to see how they would respond to what I do. Specifically, I want to see how they'd respond to level changes.

Well, I mean, the "Handcuffs and secret dances" is just a part of the culture's mythology, like Besouro, famous magic-Capoeira-Gangster of old, soooo it's kinda like ninjutsu practitioners talking about the black outfits and shogunate-hired assassins, it's encouraged, and it's easy to rattle off in conversation, but if folks were being serious they'd tell you all that long stuff

I don't suppose that's anything like Jeet Kune Do's Combat ranges?

I say this as an admitted fan of 1. Karate Kid 2. Drumline 3. Fast and the Furious III 4. Only the Strong 5. the fucking DOA movie but goddamn Never Back Down was a shitty movie.

I'd just like to point out that being able to punch someone hard enough to render them unconscious is really, really hard. Like, you have to be pretty buff and get the right angle and all kinds of horse shit.

The few fights I've been in I think I've thrown like 2 punches maybe. Its a lot more effective to just get them on the ground without any means to hurt you, because getting punched in the head sucks.

But yeah, boxing is a weird sport. My uncle used to be a boxer, I think his crowning moment of awesome was being one of the under card fights during a Tyson match back in the day. People do it for the money or because they really like getting punched in the head.

People watch it mainly to see big ass dudes punching each other, but I've found myself enjoying it at times for the strategy and skill of the boxers. I've never been a big fan of the one punch fighters, Oscar De La Hoya was a great boxer who knew when to pack it in, he made his money, had some great fights and quit before his brain was pulp.

If they could invent a way to repair damaged nerves and regrow braincells I might get in to it, but yeah like I said, getting punched in the head sucks.

I say this as a fan of movies.

Never Back Down was a shitty movie. Not "Postal" bad, but not "Commando" bad either.

Nope, nothing at all. It's just changing the vertical level you're attacking people. One of the things I like to do mostly as a product of escrima mixing with Krav's targetting strategies is I'll actually crouch or even hit my knees so I can unload shots at your bladder or at your knees, as opposed to bending over or kicking. I like using it to get under punches or kicks because it gets me out of the way and usually lets me load-up on my backhand, which is my far my strongest strike. So off high line kicks I like to hit my knees and just rip a backhand hammer fist right into the other knee. What I'm wondering is what the "classical" capoeira response would be to that.

Good way to think is
Regional=High, Fast, Agressive, direct
Angola=Slow,low, reactive, subversive

An Angoleiro's response would be to turn their head to the side because they're already down there with you.(or something like that, you get the point)

Like, Rodonkulously low.

Remember Abe Sapien in the Second hellboy movie? that was an Angoleiro.

And what you're talking about is actually very cool, because I was taught by an Angoleiro who, because of the group we were affiliated with, had to teach Regional as well,

So Rhoda sessions were filled with varying scenarios, one of Which was "Guy One play Regional, and You play Angola in response" and often we'd switch from Angola To Regional at random.

It was constant Up-Down back and forth.

My teacher could trap you on the ground until you just wanted to curl up in a ball because he would play a "Blocking" game that revolved around him pre-emptively stopping any movement you would make that he didn't want you to.

I would have slightly more respect for Never Back Down if it had the moxie to be Uwe Boll bad instead of the halfhearted execution of garbled cliches which it was.