if independant thought could lead to bliss, then why not go the hard way and get both? i don't think any structure or government can make everyone happy all the time. i think they can get pretty close, but unless everyone thinks the same way, it can't be. if, however they all do think the same way, and they all have this same bliss, then it would be impossible to lead a revolution.

and i dunno about life's goal is being happy. i mean i'm happy when i get a headshot in CS or something, but that's not the goal of my life. happiness doesn't last, and neither will anyone, for that matter, so the essense of happiness aren't really distillable. if you take something that makes you happy, and you look at the reasons why it does, then you discover (as anthropologists seem to think. go maslow!) that most of what makes you happy is to survive, then to be liked and fit in with society.

But see, that is the point behind this question. Happiness IS possible by this government, the people are genuinely happy with it, even if they don't all agree on everything. As for people who would overthrow this government, I ask you why? You are ruining literally billions of peoples' happiness, just because you think that maybe you can lead them to a life of uncertainty, where they lose all security, among other things? Other than being selfish and wanting to do things your way, why would you overthrow it?

if there's no independant thought in the happy government, then who's going to revolt? that's what i don't get.

First off, this isn't going to make people happy. No matter that you described this situation as it making people happy, it won't. My mother fixes other people's mistakes on calls for Northwest airlines and my father is a repiratory therapist. I don't want to do either of those things. I don't want to do anything even CLOSE to those things. I also like breathing... very very very much. If someone wants to kill me in a few years, I'm going to kill them NOW. Other people be damned... I want to live, and I'm GOING to survive for as long as I possibly can.

Besides... without uncertainty and surprise, life is no fun. It's like playing a video game with an infinite life cheat, that also limits you to the first level... you can't lose... but you can't win either. Where's the fun in that?

Okay let's try it like this. Over the course of the years leading to this government, the world has slowly been altering your DNA to eventually you genuinly enjoy any and all work you do, regardless of what it is. You like benefitting the government, and see no reason why you shouldn't. Futhermore, in this world, there is no crime, thus no police force, CIA, etc. And the being put to sleep is helping to solve the population problem, also benefitting the state. I realize this is some sort of nazish government I'm describing, but nevermind that.

It is ignorance or independence (or you can call it knowlege) in goverment form.

Then it completely removes the possibility for anyone WANTING to revolt. They're all mindless slave drones... if something fucked up and I somehow DID get free will, so that I liked more than benefitting the government/see reason I shouldn't or whatever... then I'd still revolt.

But otherwise I'd have no urge to. I'd be brainwashed, basically.

yeah, but if this stuff is hardcoded into your DNA, then we can't ever snap them out of it... so there's no alternative there either.

if we get some perfect bliss, there's no way out, otherwise that way out would infringe upon the perfection of the bliss.

edit: stop beating me by mere seconds! :P

Why does this question immediatly bring to mind Brave New World...

It depends on how the totalitariansims was attained, and how it works. If everyone is happy in their role because they WANT to be in their role, then that seems fine to me. However if everyone is happy in their role because they have been mentally molded into it, and they where never allowed to know anything else, then that seems wrong and like a dictatorship to be opposed.

As to the first question, I can say without a doubt Free Will over Pure Bliss. As krylo said, Pure Bliss would be closer to an animal like sense of ignorant bliss, where all is happiness, but you have no intelligence. I wouldn't trade the crappy life I have now for it, because one of my joys in life is my pursuit of knowledge and learning. I like the fact that I can make a choice on how to live my life, and what I can do with myself. Sure, I may not like the options, but that is my call as well. I do not pursue "Bliss" in the sense of utter joy. My "Bliss" comes in bite size pieces when I make a big discovery, or I learn something new for the day, or I can look at something and appreciate the finer features that someone else might easily pass over. I get "Bliss" when I am doing something productive that I want to do, and not something that I am forced into. I am at my happiest when my stores of knowledge, useful or not, are of use. My intelligence and wisdom are not gifts I would so easily give up just for instant gratification ever.

As to the new scenario you put up, that is just about 100% like Brave New World, and I would oppose it with a vengence.

EDIT: Actually, even in Brave New World where humans are manipulated from birth to the jobs that will best suit them in life, there are mutations or anomalies. These people rebel against the social order, no matter how much manipulation and brainwashing they go through for some reason. These people are exiled to islands to from their own society to keep all the "Perfect" people from being upset with their strange beliefs and new ideas on how people should live. If I was in that scenario, I would see myself wanting to end up on one of the islands of Exiles...

We're taking the idea that you were just plopped down in here somehow, completely seperate from this world. You are the exact same as you are now, it is the world around you that has changed. But I shouldn't try to refine this scenario anymore, I realize all I'm doing is trying to submit you to agreeing with me, when that really isn't a discussion then, now is it?

EDIT: FZ, I was trying to convey it to how you first stated it on the latest post, where people want to do it, but Krylo refused to believe that, so I had to make up some DNA BS to get the situation to stick.