The Warring States of NPF

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-   -   Bliss VERSUS Free Will (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=3966)

AnonCastillo 05-21-2004 04:39 PM

I'll take independent thought over bliss any day. It's more moral. If you're helping other people because you choose to, that's moral. If you're helping other people because you have no other choice, that's not. There is no morality without choice, and I'd rather be moral than happy.
And I'd revolt, even if everyone was happy. Just because they're blissful now doesn't mean they'll stay that way forever. Brian did kind of a take on the subject: http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020619
Sure, today everyone is happy. But the government has no reason to keep people happy. It all goes back to Kenyon Sharp's least interest theory. Whoever has the least interest in maintaining a relationship holds all the power. You, as one single citizen, provide nearly nothing to the government, so the government has almost no interest in keeping you, specifically, alive. The government provides everything to you. Therefore, the government has absolute power over you - and we all know what absolute power does. In a society like this, you'd actually be less secure than you are now - your security is entirely dependent on an organization that has absolutely no interest in maintaining that security. One day you have your perfect job that you've been bred and raised into, the next day the government decides you're taking up too much space and gasses you with everyone who turned 60 that day. In a less certain world, you're more secure, because other people depend on you more and therefore have more of a reason to keep you secure.

Edit: I'm probably a bit biased, though, being a part of the second American revolution and all.

FunnyLooking 05-21-2004 08:11 PM

Free Will always beats Bliss. It's just impossible to beat. People are most happy when they use their free will for progress.

And yes, this is exactly like Brave New World. Go to www.huxley.net and read up some of that. (scroll down to 'False Happiness')

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in this world bliss isn't fleeting. its permanent, and i dunno about dull. if i were blissful, i wouldn't feel bored. and its not like i'll be lounging in a hammock all day being blissed out either.
According that very own huxley.net. One can't actually get 'tolerant' to happiness, only get tolerant to what's causing it (like, playing video games only works so long. Then you have to other things).

The question I pose to you is: Can one truly be happy without free thought? And I don't mean any chemical or biological spouts of joy (like drugs or sex). I mean happiness.

Lucas 05-21-2004 08:19 PM

now time for the counter question

can one truely be happy with free thought?

Forever Zero 05-21-2004 08:56 PM

... What? That didn't even make sense! Of course one can be happy with free thought. The case has already been given many times. Everyone on this board right now has free thought, and I am certain a good number of them will admit to being perfectly happy individuals. I would say that I am a pretty happy individual, and I have free will. Anyone with free will can be perfectly happy if they ever do anything they want to.

Dante 05-21-2004 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas
now time for the counter question

can one truely be happy with free thought?

Of course. You can be fully conscious of what you're thinking of and happy.

Overanalyze, though, and you're just asking for trouble.

Lucas 05-21-2004 08:57 PM

but how long does your happiness stay? if this true happiness is so vaunted, then how can it be achieved when the world is full of suffering? saying that happiness is EASIER to aquire when you're cognizent of all of the world's evils and all of the worlds problems seems more difficult than saying happiness is easily attained through ignorance.

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I would say that I am a pretty happy individual, and I have free will
but you aren't perfectly happy.

Zweihander 05-21-2004 09:06 PM

If we don't lose our happiness once in a while, we forget what it really is. You can't eat prime rib every meal for a year and still enjoy it the same way as the first time you had it, can you? Same thing applies. We actually need some sadness, some discomfort in our lives or else it's all wrong. Remember what happened to the first, "perfect" Matrix in the first movie?

Forever Zero 05-21-2004 09:12 PM

Ahh, Perfection is a different question all together. I am indeed aware of the problems of the world. If you don't believe me, look at my rant in the Greater Destiny thread. I do not view the world in a good light. Yet that does not prevent me from being happy, and getting joy in the things I do on an individual level. I do not believe in the "Perfect" anything. Everything comes at a price, and in this case, the "Perfect" bliss comes at a loss of Free Will and Intelligence. I do not see that as perfect at all, but heavily flawed. You cannot apply one person's definition of Perfection to another and expect them to agree. If you ask any two people what is perfect bliss, expect different answers. Even if you are mentally forced to be "Happy" yet dumb, I do not view that as happy at all, but instead an animal like sense of contentment. So am I "Perfectly" happy? No, no one is, and no one ever will be. Am I happy with my life, the way it is, and the things I do? Yes, I am.

Dante 05-21-2004 09:14 PM

Quote:

but how long does your happiness stay? if this true happiness is so vaunted, then how can it be achieved when the world is full of suffering? saying that happiness is EASIER to aquire when you're cognizent of all of the world's evils and all of the worlds problems seems more difficult than saying happiness is easily attained through ignorance.
You recognize the suffering in the world... then recognize it does not apply to you.

Thus are you happy.

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If we don't lose our happiness once in a while, we forget what it really is. You can't eat prime rib every meal for a year and still enjoy it the same way as the first time you had it, can you? Same thing applies. We actually need some sadness, some discomfort in our lives or else it's all wrong. Remember what happened to the first, "perfect" Matrix in the first movie?
One of those shadow and light things, IMO; "Unlimited freedom is meaningless without restrictions." and so on.

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but you aren't perfectly happy.
Nobody is. Not even God is. But he has free will AND happiness, which pretty much answers your question.

Lucas 05-21-2004 10:26 PM

but yet if you're going after perfect bliss, knowing anything will eventually lead to you not having your bliss. you can say "hey look, that pain and suffering doesn't involve me" but eventually you'll be sick, old and dead, all of which don't commonly incite happiness. if you know nothing, on the otherhand, what's to stop you from being completely happy 24/7/365

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Nobody is
which is my point. if you WERE completely happy, you'd have to be isolated from experience.

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I do not view that as happy at all, but instead an animal like sense of contentment. So am I "Perfectly" happy? No, no one is, and no one ever will be. Am I happy with my life, the way it is, and the things I do? Yes, I am.
sure you wouldn't like it, and neither would i, but that's because we know better. if you knew of nothing better than the state you were in, you'd be living in the best of all worlds according to yourself. being pretty happy here on earth has nothing to do with the extreme of pure bliss.

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I do not believe in the "Perfect" anything.
its a hypothetical, its not supposed to be something normally achievable or believeable.


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