Afghan War and renegade kill teams. WTF?
 

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Yeah... What are we fighting for again?

Tell that to the ones suffering from PTSD. Tell that to the lives snuffed out because one platoon leader decided to snap. We've been in foreign lands for too long, for a war that was fought on false pretenses. Cookie for you, but it's time to end a war that is stupid beyond all means.

Does anyone want to try and convince me that there are no avoidable deaths in these wars again?

Anyone?

Who actually said that in the first place, again?
Maybe I missed something but I don't remember anyone ever actually saying anything of the sort.

Nobody who could be taken seriously has said that. Some deaths can be avoided, some cannot. This is an example of the former, but it does not mean that every single civilian casualty is the result of deliberate malice like you seem to enjoy implying.

Question, Noncon: Are you seriously under the impression that the United States is the only country whose military pulls shit like this?

I'm sorry that pointing out your country's faults hurts your jingoistic feelings.
 

Loyal, don't be stupid. I've even gone so far as to say in the other thread that I am aware not every civilian casualty is avoidable. I got pissed off that people were implying that every civilian casualty was unavoidable in the other thread, as was implied by the fact that my criticism of the US military was met with "WELL CIVILIAN DEATHS ARE UNAVOIDABLE" and when I mentioned instances where innocent civilians were shot and killed directly, rather than indirectly as a result of missiles, the response I got was "ACCIDENTAL MURDERS ARE UNAVOIDABLE."

Gee, I wonder where I said that. Oh. I didn't.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2r3dz43.gif

I live in America, so I have anti-patriotism for it, wherein yes every time it fucks up I'm going to be pissed off about it and focus on it, because other countries making the same fuckups does not excuse our fuckups. I'm more aware of America's fuckups because I live in America. I'm not going to waste time on France's fuckups, except where they are brought to my attention, because I don't live in France.


Also @RPG:
I think once someone starts implying any instance where people are shot and murdered as "It's unavoidable people will make mistakes" then yes they're implying that all civilian deaths are unavoidable. IN FACT, I expect were Gregness to post in this thread his post would be along the lines of, "It's unavoidable that some people will go too far and become murderers and start murdering innocent people for the fuck of it."

EDIT: RPG deleted his post. Whatevs.

Yeah, sorry, didn't think you'd have been online/seen it. Mainly, I was like, "Whatever, everyone else has said this already", and didn't feel like derailing things. Especially since my post was worded pretty rudely.

Edit: And yeah, I don't think that all casualties are unavoidable, but some are*. You were making it sound like everyone said that casualties are unavoidable, no matter what. I didn't see Greg's post, because after about halfway through reading the back/forth arguments there, I was like, "Bleh, screw it, this is going no where", and went to check out the pony thread.

*In that whenever you go to war, you are going to be killing. The fact that killing happens during this, is unavoidable. You could say that ALL casualties are avoidable, because the war could be avoided, but in the scope of, "At war, and trying to end it without drawing it out indefinitely", some casualties are unavoidable. It's the choice between, "Missiles to X, possibly kill civilians in the area", or, "Miss the chance at the target to avoid killing civilians, lengthen the conflict indefinitely, during which time more civilians might be killed in a later plan.", because they'll still be seeking to accomplish the same goals.

I've gone out of my way to say that I acknowledge some deaths are unavoidable. My main point was always that the number of civilian deaths, especially in Iraq where it's pretty fucking ridiculous and we shouldn't even fucking be there, leads me to believe that the number of avoidable civilian casualties is much, much higher than it ought to be, and this belief is supported by the fact that the government has tried to hide the number of casualties.

Yeah, that makes sense. I edited my post a bit (Because I do all my thinking post-posting, apparantly), but it's still about the same, just expanded upon a bit.

I think the main issue was coming because people (Myself included) thought that you had meant that everyone was saying that all casualties are unavoidable.

Sorry about that.

I've got class in a little bit so I can't write a big post, but let me try to clear something up (for the whateverth time).

NonCon, Yes I believe that it is unavoidable that people make mistakes. Sometimes mistake a camera lense for a rifle scope and do something that everyone later regrets.

That's not what's happened here. These guys are ruining a what is supposed to be a mission to fucking help people. They didn't make a mistake (as in, something unintentional). They purposefully and knowingly went out of their goddamn way to kill innocents, and I think that 24 years is far too lenient a punishment. As a civilian, first degree murder typically has at least a lifetime sentence attached.

So, again, the thing that has pissed ME off is that you're acting like these guys AREN'T a horrible aberration and that this sort of thing is just what our military is.

I've got more, but I've gotta get to class.

Could I make the humble request that you guys do this on PMs (Hah, arguments on PMS. I am hilarious) if the argument is going to be taking more than a few posts to go back and forth with?