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The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk 05-30-2011 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants (Post 1130847)
No he isn't. It's never expressely stated what Tom is but he defineatly not Maia who are all named at same point. He appears to be the spirit of the earth or some such, possibly the big high god or some such.
Mostly he just a motherfucker though.
Also doesn't covet the ring.
Possibly the only character who isn't Sauron.

Yes, he is a Maiar. What do you suppose a "spirit of the earth" would be if not a Maiar? He's not one of the Valar, because they're all accounted for and and none of them live in Middle Earth. Orome and Yavanna are probably the only 2 who ever occasionally wander the world, and neither of them are Bombadil. Gandalf even described him as the oldest of the old, which implies he's a Maiar. He even shares some of the same powers as another Maiar, that one who married one of the first elven kings (can't find my copy of Silmarillion now though so I can't remember her name), what with the whole protection of the forest deal and knowing instantly when someone enters his domain thing that she had.

Further, he lives with Goldberry, the River Daughter, implied to be a litteral daughter of Ulmo, god of the seas. I find the idea of 2 Maiar living together more likely than 1 Maiar and one... strange immortal dude who apparantly has no origin and is totally NOT a Maiar just because it never implicitly states so in the book.

Also it outright states he is in the Tolkien encyclopedia, which I would presume knows what it's talking about and has verified sources to go along with it.

Professor Smarmiarty 05-30-2011 05:04 AM

From WIki:
Quote:

Tom Bombadil's origins in the cosmology of Middle-earth were left vague by Tolkien. He calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside." He does not neatly fit into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Speculative ideas about his true nature range from one of the Ainur, angelic beings (who came after the dark lord and shaped the earth), to God, who is called Eru Ilúvatar and "the One" in Tolkien's legendarium. This is reinforced when Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, and she responds by simply saying "He is" (much like the biblical statement about Yahweh, "I Am that I Am").[2]

At the Council of Elrond, Galdor suggests that Bombadil would be unable to withstand a siege by Sauron "unless such power is in the earth itself", implying that the character may be a manifestation of Middle-earth's inherent properties. This connection explains Bombadil's seeming obliviousness to the transient concerns of mortals, as evidenced in Gandalf's concern that Tom would not understand the importance of the Ring and would lose it if entrusted with it. The idea that Tom's songs are always "stronger", as he proclaims in his rhyme, as well as his title of Master, further suggest Bombadil is the warden or avatar of the nearly invincible aspects of the planet itself.[original research?]

In reference to Bombadil, Tolkien himself said that some things should remain mysterious in any narrative, hidden even to its inventor.
Also there is fairly extensive lists of the Maiar who come to Earth, Tom ain't mentioned at all.
And he's not affected by the Ring and doesn't give a shit. All other Maia we see are affected by the power of the Ring despite them all being super powerful. Also all other Maia want to stop Sauron, that why they came to the Earth and left pleasureisland. Tom doesn't give a shit.

Also he knows he is in a book! That's not a Maiar power.

Marc v4.0 05-30-2011 08:42 AM

Tom is a being that has the technical description of "Badass" and that is all we ever need to know.

Melfice 05-30-2011 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0 (Post 1130901)
Tom is a being that has the technical description of "Badass" overpowered and that is all we ever need to know.

Fixed. Also, needs a nerf.

Professor Smarmiarty 05-30-2011 09:31 AM

You just think that cause you don't know how to counter him you stupid noob. His strength actually varies with the health of the battlefield you fight on. If you use Frieza's planet buster while he is singing he will lose all power.

BloodyMage 05-30-2011 09:59 AM

Quote:

He calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master"
so....

http://welltuncares.files.wordpress....ster-small.jpg

Just another incarnation then?

RickZarber 05-30-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melfice (Post 1130867)
Seriously?
Tolkien named the guy who can change into a bear "Beorn"?

Admittedly, I'm not that big of a Tolkien nut, but I thought he was more creative than that. =/

Well, it's important to keep in mind that Tolkien was writing the Hobbit for his kids, and only included a shape-shifting Bear/Man in there because they were totally obsessed with bears at the time and insisted on them being in the story (and, in fact, most of his children's stories include bears). So it makes a certain amount sense that the name would be simplistic.

Interestingly enough though, in the original manuscript for the Hobbit, Beorn is called Medwed.

Melfice 05-30-2011 10:57 AM

Yes, but the real kicker is, Beorn is the Old English form of the Scandinavian name Björn or Bjørn.

Which means... you guessed it, "bear".

Marc v4.0 05-30-2011 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melfice (Post 1130912)
Yes, but the real kicker is, Beorn is the Old English form of the Scandinavian name Björn or Bjørn.

Which means... you guessed it, "bear".

A neverending cycle of BEARS

Shyria Dracnoir 05-30-2011 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracorion (Post 1130853)
No, see, they're smart talking eagles.

Yes, but still eagles. The Hobbit mentions that the group Bilbo and Co. meet can't just fly them into Rivertown because the eagles have a bad habit of jacking the farmer's livestock and that the farmers would shoot the crap out of them if they got close. Even if they can speak, they're still very much like animals in their instincts and behavior.

There's also the pride thing mentioned as well; they can't bring themselves to care about the other races unless it's under very special circumstances. For the main trilogy, you're asking these things to run what could possibly be a suicide run into the heart of ultimate evil infested with orcs, giant bat things, and A FREAKING ACTIVE VOLCANO, all with the possibility that the guy you're carrying could suddenly give in to the artifact he's trying to destroy and stab you in the back. Personally, I think the eagles would be quite sensible in saying no.

Aerozord 05-30-2011 11:50 AM

Bombadil was never a fully formed idea to start with. Tolkien himself said he couldn't explain what his purpose was in the story, only that he felt something would be missing with his removal otherwise he wouldn't have been left in.

I'm betting he was just an idea he wanted to use so he tossed him in without much regard to his nature in the grand mythos

The Sevenshot Kid 05-30-2011 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyria Dracnoir (Post 1130922)
Yes, but still eagles. The Hobbit mentions that the group Bilbo and Co. meet can't just fly them into Rivertown because the eagles have a bad habit of jacking the farmer's livestock and that the farmers would shoot the crap out of them if they got close. Even if they can speak, they're still very much like animals in their instincts and behavior.

There's also the pride thing mentioned as well; they can't bring themselves to care about the other races unless it's under very special circumstances. For the main trilogy, you're asking these things to run what could possibly be a suicide run into the heart of ultimate evil infested with orcs, giant bat things, and A FREAKING ACTIVE VOLCANO, all with the possibility that the guy you're carrying could suddenly give in to the artifact he's trying to destroy and stab you in the back. Personally, I think the eagles would be quite sensible in saying no.

Or their pride could influence things so that they decide to take part in this suicide run for all of the glory it would bring.

Bells 05-30-2011 12:48 PM

Nah... eagles are dicks.

My memory from the books (and movies) is a little rusty though, but there is one thing i was thinking about. What is the extent of Magic in Middle Earth?

Sauron was able to forge a bunch of Hyper Magical rings, alright. That Elven chick whatshername summoned a horse-shapped tidal wavel, and Gandalf shined some lights around...

Also, if Gandalf is Sauron, why did he let Saruman capture and beat the crap out of him, if Saruman was serving Sauron?!

Marc v4.0 05-30-2011 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid (Post 1130925)
Or their pride could influence things so that they decide to take part in this suicide run for all of the glory it would bring.

At least a suicide run into Mt. Doom would provide the Orc Armies with a hell of a lot of roast bird to feast on.

Aerozord 05-30-2011 12:51 PM

he's a disembodied fiery eyeball, what else is there to do besides that and plot out the conquest of the known world

Marc v4.0 05-30-2011 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord (Post 1130943)
he's a disembodied fiery eyeball, what else is there to do besides that and plot out the conquest of the known world

toga party

Aerozord 05-30-2011 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0 (Post 1130951)
toga party

disembodied remember

The Sevenshot Kid 05-30-2011 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord (Post 1130952)
disembodied remember

Unless he has the orcs sow him up a giant toga for his tower.

Marc v4.0 05-30-2011 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord (Post 1130952)
disembodied remember

Eventually he would be strong enough to take on physical form, and that is worth a ripping Toga Party.

Shyria Dracnoir 05-30-2011 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bells (Post 1130941)
Nah... eagles are dicks.

My memory from the books (and movies) is a little rusty though, but there is one thing i was thinking about. What is the extent of Magic in Middle Earth?

Sauron was able to forge a bunch of Hyper Magical rings, alright. That Elven chick whatshername summoned a horse-shapped tidal wavel, and Gandalf shined some lights around...

Not as far as in the majority of its derivatives. As stated before, wizards here are a completely different class of beings from man; elves get some tricks because of their nature, but even then its usually the ringbearers and other really old individuals (the wave trick was actually one of Elrond's in the books). Magic among men is usually limited to people of certain descent; Aragon gets special abilities because of his lineage as the king of Gondor, and his Numenorean ancestors (basically Middle-Earth's version of Atlantis).

There's an overall feeling of magic slowly decaying over time; where the planet used to be lit by a giant glowing tree and magic lighthouses, we have a physical sun and moon later. The planet goes from being flat to round around the time the Numenorean civilization gets wiped out. The Third Age sees the last of the Elves and the Rings of Power retreating to the West or elsewhere. It's noted that Tolkien thought of the world of Middle-Earth as a sort of mythical past for our own planet, and the retreat of these more mystical elements sort of supports it.

rpgdemon 05-30-2011 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyria Dracnoir (Post 1130956)
It's noted that Tolkien thought of the world of Middle-Earth as a sort of mythical past for our own planet, and the retreat of these more mystical elements sort of supports it.

Yeah, I have a friend who's really into the Lord of the Rings supplementary stuff, and he was telling me about how eventually the stuff leads into our world, and WWII actually happens sometime in the ninth age, or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord (Post 1130924)
Bombadil was never a fully formed idea to start with. Tolkien himself said he couldn't explain what his purpose was in the story, only that he felt something would be missing with his removal otherwise he wouldn't have been left in.

I'm betting he was just an idea he wanted to use so he tossed him in without much regard to his nature in the grand mythos

Didn't Bombadil come from a short story he wrote, originally, with no ties to the Lord of the Rings? I honestly don't remember where I heard this, but I thought I did, somewhere. Also, I feel like if he was taken out, the entire book would feel far too tense and as if there was no way the Hobbits could have survived far enough to hit Elrond.

Professor Smarmiarty 05-30-2011 02:54 PM

Also Tom's bit is the only good bit in the trilogy.

RickZarber 05-30-2011 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melfice (Post 1130912)
Yes, but the real kicker is, Beorn is the Old English form of the Scandinavian name Björn or Bjørn.

Which means... you guessed it, "bear".

Well, duh. :P I'm just saying it makes a certain amount of simplistic sense, seeing as, in fact, the real kicker is that in OE, "Beorn" as a surename was taken to mean: "a warrior, a hero, a man of valour" (also, poetic "man").
Quote:

Originally Posted by rpgdemon (Post 1130971)
Didn't Bombadil come from a short story he wrote, originally, with no ties to the Lord of the Rings?

This is correct. Bombadil predates LotR, and first appeared in a poem published in the Oxford Magazine in 1933. (So he actually predates The Hobbit, too.)

About Tom Bombadil's nature, esp re: the reference to Tom:God, in Tolkien's own words, from a letter written in 1954 (Letters of JRR Tolkien No. 153):
Quote:

Frodo has not asked 'what is Tom Bombadil' but 'Who is he'. We and he no doubt often laxly confuse the questions. Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer. We need not go into the sublimities of 'I am that I am' -- which is quite different from he is. She adds as a concession a statement of part of the 'what'. He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession or domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. [...] I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out. [...] [He is] an expampler, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge. Even the Elves hardly show this: they are primarily artists.

RobinStarwing 05-31-2011 02:30 PM

I think I will just drop out of this discussion before my brain implodes.

The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk 05-31-2011 03:01 PM

I refuse to believe that Bombadil is Eru Illuvatar. No fucking way!

Seil 05-31-2011 03:10 PM

http://amazingdata.com/mediadata20/I...1543414499.jpg

Professor Smarmiarty 05-31-2011 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk (Post 1131146)
I refuse to believe that Bombadil is Eru Illuvatar. No fucking way!

Santa Claus is also the Easter Bunny. Think about it. It makes sense.


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