The Warring States of NPF

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-   -   Dark Souls or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Dying (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=40810)

Jagos 10-16-2011 02:50 PM

I really have to wonder why people rate the game so highly...

When you're looking at the gameplay aspect, in context, there are a few problems that popup during a playthrough.

1) The menus can be very complex and confusing to newcomers to this game, and deter from the norms. Just having a healing spell requires various extra elements that can seem tedious or unnecessary.

2) There are very few hints as to what you're doing, leading to a LOT of confusion in this game. Sure, you can ring the two bells, or just try to hack and slash it all. But some kind of exposition fairy for the storyline might have helped a lot.

3) Graphics, sometimes, when there's a lot of enemies onscreen the game slows down quite a lot. Of course, fighting all of those enemies is damn near impossible but still, the point remains that the engine does cause lag in a few places. Further, the darkness of some areas should be noted.

4) Let's face it, the gameplay is never truly explained in a meaningful way to those that want to delve into Dark Souls. While this game is a hardcore gamer's wet dream, it's quite off putting to people of more casual gaming habits. You have to invest hours into studying the wiki, the messages, and other people playing to get a gist of what's going on. You won't know who the pyromancer teacher is, nor how to help/hinder him unless you looked it up online. You're not going to learn the controls in one setting and people usually invest hours into playing to figure out bosses.

After watching this for sometime, I'm convinced the developers saw IWBTG, liked the game and said "Here it is in 3D" because yes, that game does not like you. Neither does Dark Souls.

Kim 10-16-2011 03:34 PM

It sounds like you've just watched the game and think that's an accurate representation of the experience?

Derp.

Not that I think you would like it, but reviewers (should) review based on their own experiences with the game. Their experience was a positive one, thus they reviewed it as such.

I got lost at times, but never sufficient to meaningfully detract from my experience, and the world design that allowed me to get lost had a lot of pluses that I thought outweighed the cons of that.

The menus aren't particularly confusing and you can examine them with a button press to see what every little thing means.

Healing doesn't require much. You need the spell and you need the item to cast it. If you start with that type of magic, you already have the casting implement. If you don't start with it, you can get that implement from the person who sells you the spell in the first place. Based on the sorcerer NPC, I'd wager the miracle NPC probably tells you you need the implement.

Not half as confusing as you're making it out to be.

The framerate is an issue, but I never felt like it interfered with the gameplay itself. It was just really damn annoying.

Arcanum 10-16-2011 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagos (Post 1161486)
I really have to wonder why people rate the game so highly...

When you're looking at the gameplay aspect, in context, there are a few problems that popup during a playthrough.

1) The menus can be very complex and confusing to newcomers to this game, and deter from the norms.

At first, yeah the menus can throw you off, but it doesn't take long to learn them at all. And once you do, I find everything is rather organized. So I don't really know where you're coming from with this.

Quote:

Just having a healing spell requires various extra elements that can seem tedious or unnecessary.
You equip the healing miracle at a bonfire, and use a talisman to cast it. Yeah you might confuse a sorcerer's catalyst with a talisman, but once you learn the difference (which should take all of 30 seconds) you won't make the same mistake again. I don't see how this is tedious, or unnecessary. It's like equipping a shield in your right hand and wondering why it's not as effective as a sword.

And if you are going to suggest spells and miracles and pyromancies be all cast with a single item, that would wreak havoc with the balance in both single and multi-player.

Quote:

2) There are very few hints as to what you're doing, leading to a LOT of confusion in this game. Sure, you can ring the two bells, or just try to hack and slash it all. But some kind of exposition fairy for the storyline might have helped a lot.
Every area in the game has a reason for you to be there, and there's always a reason you're killing a boss. Sure some reasons aren't as good as others, such as killing Gaping Dragon just to get a key to Blight Town compared to fighting Sif because you need Artorias' abyss-walking ring while she's sworn to protect his grave. But there's always a reason, and there's almost always exposition. The only problem is you have to find it. Even when it comes to the story, the game doesn't hold your hand. Personally I love the extra challenge in finding the story elements, but I can see why some people might hate it.

Quote:

3) Graphics, sometimes, when there's a lot of enemies onscreen the game slows down quite a lot. Of course, fighting all of those enemies is damn near impossible but still, the point remains that the engine does cause lag in a few places. Further, the darkness of some areas should be noted.
Yeah the Havok engine is definitely showing it's age. You don't even need a lot of enemies, just the right camera angle in Blight Town.

What do you mean about the darkness of some areas though?

Quote:

4) Let's face it, the gameplay is never truly explained in a meaningful way to those that want to delve into Dark Souls. While this game is a hardcore gamer's wet dream, it's quite off putting to people of more casual gaming habits. You have to invest hours into studying the wiki, the messages, and other people playing to get a gist of what's going on.
Casual players bought Dark Souls? Seriously, if anyone bought this game without knowing what they were getting into, that's their own problem. It's like someone buying Madden without knowing anything about football, and then wondering why there's so much football in the game.

Quote:

You won't know who the pyromancer teacher is, nor how to help/hinder him unless you looked it up online.
Or you could explore every area and stumble upon him, as was the original intent.

Quote:

You're not going to learn the controls in one setting
If you are the kind of person who experiments with the controls in a game, then yeah you could easily figure them out in the first 10 minutes. If you aren't that kind of person, then it doesn't really matter. Your fights might take a while longer if you don't know how to backstab or parry, but it's not like you need to know these things to progress through the game. And if you're the kind of person who's used to a game telling you everything about how to play it, then I'm sad that we've reached that point as gamers.

Quote:

and people usually invest hours into playing to figure out bosses.
If you run in blindly, and try to learn a boss's moves on the fly, then yeah you might spend hours trying to figure out how to beat him. Alternatively you could play smart, and stay back, baiting the boss into attacking and discovering its move-set and timing before finally moving in for the kill.

Krylo 10-16-2011 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanum (Post 1161495)
If you are the kind of person who experiments with the controls in a game, then yeah you could easily figure them out in the first 10 minutes. If you aren't that kind of person, then it doesn't really matter. Your fights might take a while longer if you don't know how to backstab or parry, but it's not like you need to know these things to progress through the game. And if you're the kind of person who's used to a game telling you everything about how to play it, then I'm sad that we've reached that point as gamers.

But the hints in the tutorial section totally do tell you how to backstab and parry. And do most everything else.



Quote:

If you run in blindly, and try to learn a boss's moves on the fly, then yeah you might spend hours trying to figure out how to beat him. Alternatively you could play smart, and stay back, baiting the boss into attacking and discovering its move-set and timing before finally moving in for the kill.
I like to put out my summon sign at the closest bonfire to the boss and help someone else do it to learn the moves. I also did this near the beginning of Sen's fortress to explore the traps without any risk to myself.

Kim 10-16-2011 03:44 PM

What they said.

Plus, it's not like Dark Souls has ever been ambiguous about the kind of game it is. For what it is, it's simply amazing. I'm not going to criticize a game for not being made for the nonexistent Every-Gamer-Ever group that some people think games need to be made for.

Arcanum 10-16-2011 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krylo (Post 1161498)
But the hints in the tutorial section totally do tell you how to backstab and parry. And do most everything else.

Heh, in fairness I didn't really read too many of the tutorial signs so I don't know what they do and do not tell you.

Also, nice review Liz.

Jagos 10-16-2011 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liz (Post 1161499)
What they said.

Plus, it's not like Dark Souls has ever been ambiguous about the kind of game it is. For what it is, it's simply amazing. I'm not going to criticize a game for not being made for the nonexistent Every-Gamer-Ever group that some people think games need to be made for.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that even though there's flaws, it's rated highly despite them. And having a few blurbs about the people that this would cater to and not could help to keep up the distinction of which market/demographic/people the game is catering to.

Kim 10-16-2011 03:59 PM

Here's a hint, Jagos: All the reviews that say, "This game is really fucking hard and not for everyone," probably make it pretty clear who this game is for.

Also, most of the things you accused of being flaws aren't really, and to any extent that they could be argued to be flaws are rather trivial.

A high rating does not mean a game is perfect.

Arcanum 10-16-2011 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagos (Post 1161505)
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that even though there's flaws, it's rated highly despite them. And having a few blurbs about the people that this would cater to and not could help to keep up the distinction of which market/demographic/people the game is catering to.

Only your third point was really a flaw, and pretty much all the reviews acknowledge the poor frame rate. The rest, however, are a matter of opinion. And when it comes down to it, game reviews are the reviewer's opinion on the game.

Krylo 10-16-2011 06:17 PM

I've only hit poor frame rate like... twice, and never in the same area/with lots of guys on screen. Like, there's no seeming rhyme or reason to it. For instance I got it after killing Nito. For some reason.

And never got it in Blighttown.

I kinda just assumed that was a PS3/360 thing, though.

Edit: Though I will say the instruction book kinda sucked a lot. Like, there was no information on what the various symbols mean or anything. You have to hit the Demon Souls instruction manual for that kinda stuff which is silly.


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