I can't vote because I haven't watched any of those shows but don't forget Everybody Loves Raymond.

But I think there's an even bigger picture element that's being missed in this whole discussion, which is that criticism of a show (or a videogame, or a movie) shouldn't be equivocated with a personal attack on individuals who enjoy that product.

Too often we've had discussions regarding underlying issues with narratives -- particularly social justice issues in said storylines -- become completely derailed because people mistake criticism of the product as criticism on themselves for liking the product.

I like many stories that are filled with misogynistic, racist and homophobic bullshit. I do! That's largely because we live in a culture that's so inundated with privilege and oppression that misogynistic, racist and homophobic content is considered 'normal.' So even great stories are infected with bullshit. Lots and lots of bullshit that needs to be called out as bullshit.

Personally, I won't hide the fact the fact that I dislike Big Bang Theory. I think it's a shit show. But I didn't come here to try to trumpet a message that everyone who liked the show was a misogynist; I came here to point out issues with the show's attitude towards women, homosexuals, and nerds. Those issues would be problematic even if Big Bang Theory was a phenomenal show with great dialogue and characters that just happened to have a few social justice issues.

At no point here did I attempt to argue that everyone who liked Sheldon or Leonard or Penny were awful, terrible, disgusting worms of human beings for liking the show. Again: An important distinction has to be made there. It's a distinction we didn't make in the Boycott Atlus thread and it's a distinction we're still not making now.

And, to Bells: I thought you were responding to other arguments I was making about misogyny and homophobia in the story, but instead you're harping on Raj's disorder, which I considered rather ancillary to my argument.

The point I was making was about others' perceptions of Raj as being 'shy' drove an underlying homophobic message. Key words: Others' perceptions. It isn't about whatever disorder Raj actually has, not really anyway. It's about how society's perception of Raj as shy leads others to believe he might be homosexual, and how Raj responds to those claims about his sexuality.

Except pretty much any time Penny is in the same room as Raj, they do the same joke where Raj leans in to Howard to have him tell Howard to tell Penny something, and the audience laughs. When Raj took that pill that let him talk to women for an episode, the laughter came when the pill started to fall apart and he was back to being mute again.

They could have easily explained this all away with a second of dialog, but the show has chosen, for all of these seasons, that when they want to laugh at Raj being close to a woman they don't put a beer in his hand, and when they want to have a normal scene they give him a beer.

It can't be everybody loves raymond because everyone loves him.

Eh he was ok.

wait, what do you mean with explain all this away?

Like, removing his issues or explaining they exist?

Cause they do explain that it's there...


If that's the case, then you would have to give The Old Adventures of New Christine a pass because it has Undercover Agent Coulson in it.

Are you saying the title is a lie? Are you allowed to do that?

Explain away, as in, remove it completely. It's the worst character quirk on television, it adds nothing, it's kept him as the most stagnate character, and the fact that they have to either force a beer into his hand or explain why something he's imbibing is alcoholic in order for him to act human and contribute to a scene shows that they know it's pointless. If it wasn't they'd just always have him be mute and only be drunk when it made sense, but they've chosen to keep the quirk regardless of how little it makes sense.

Cause removing it would be terrible. No no, they totally wrote themselves into a corner with that character... i understand that they thought having a "ultra shy" guy be best friends with a "way over his head" casanova would be funny, but that was probably thought for a show that wasn't expecting to survive beyond 3-4 seasons... but the show got big, and it's going for 7 seasons now. Simply "dissipate into thin air" a main trait of a character that has a real Psychiatric disorder would be a shotgun blast to the foot...

It really does serve no purpose, but really, "Deus Ex Machina" to solve it would not fly well with the people that actually like the show... i think they tried some of that with those experimental pills, probably didn't flew well with audiences so they just faded that out...

I don't see anything written about Selective Mutism that suggests that alcohol has ever been used as a cure for it.

Also: So...I don't see how I was wrong in labeling Raj as shy.